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Modest Suggestion: Use NOLA VIOLENCE as Call for GUN CONTROL

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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 10:18 AM
Original message
Modest Suggestion: Use NOLA VIOLENCE as Call for GUN CONTROL
Edited on Fri Sep-09-05 10:20 AM by McCamy Taylor
Watch the GOP and the NRA squirm.

It makes perfectly good sense. The tsunami ravaged nations differ from NOLA in that most of them have rational gun control laws. People in those countries did not possess firearms, so when they were left with nothing and when they went temporarily insane from terror, they didnt have weapons with which to go ballistic.


The next time some Freeper or Repub tries to blame NOLA Violence on the poverty or ethnicity or immorality of the people in the city, cut that person off and say "Yes, it is a shame how much violence you get when you have unlimited access to so many dangerous guns in a disaster area."

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Dora Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
1. They're already confiscating guns in NO
I just read it in the NYTimes.

I disagree. If I were a resident of NO and I owned a handgun, I sure wouldn't want to hand it over to the police. No way.

If anybody goes "ballistic" with weapons, I wager that it will be "law enforcement" that fires first.

These people have been through hell, abandoned by their government and their countrymen. After reading some of the stuff I've read this week, I've come to believe that they deserve their guns, and they deserve any misgivings they may have about the police.
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MisterLiberal Donating Member (442 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-11-05 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #1
55. uh oh
How many posts until we hear from the "pro-gun" democrats?
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tanyev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
2. Or at least get Wal-Mart to better secure the guns it sells.
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redtapeblues Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
31. I would be glad
that Walmart didn't secure their guns if I needed one. After all, there's 'gaters in them there waters!
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
3. Uh, the tsunami countries don't have "rational gun control laws" -- they
have autocratic governments that suppress all kinds of freedom, including the right of people to arm themselves.

And I find it appalling that you would look to forward your own agenda by playing up the already exaggerated and often inaccurate accounts of "armed looters" in NO.

For shame.

sw
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. No, Im anti-gun control. I want people to stop calling NOLA savage.
Edited on Fri Sep-09-05 10:40 AM by McCamy Taylor
If the issue was suddenly turned to one of Gun Control, the Right Wing might suddenly drop the whole discussion and leave NOLA the hell alone.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #6
17. Okay. I must admit, that's not how I read your post.
It seems like an awfully convoluted way of making your point, and not terribly useful, imho. :shrug:
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Try it out. It may work better than you think in selected cases.
Edited on Fri Sep-09-05 11:27 AM by McCamy Taylor
Main thing is you have to be trickier than your political sparring partner to pull this one off. I am extremely tricky, so I know I can do this. People who argue best from a position of sincerity should not try it.
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mainegreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
4. I know its not a popular viewpoint around here but...
gun control is bad, m'kay?

Heres why:

1) Guns DO NOT KILL PEOPLE! Poverty, anger, abuse, greed and lack of safety training kill people. Takes guns out of the equation and nothing has changed.

2) You may need your gun some day if the government goes evil. This may be a bit run for the hills, Montana, but by golly if it DOES go evil, wont you be glad the population is armed!

3) Gun control wont stop gun ownership. It would be like the drug war: big waste of cash.

When was the last time someone in your area got blown away by an uzi?
How about killed by a drunk driver or stabbed? I bet you the last two happened a lot more. Should we remove alcohol? That didn't work. How about removing knives? :eyes:

Gun control is one issue the democrats have wrong. Their stance just doesn't make sense. What will gun control accomplish? Nothing, other than less popular appeal.

I'm done.
Feel free to flame away.

(ducks and runs)
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. no flames here
sometimes I think the people who insist on this are making the party unelectable.

Will Not Wash.

Besides which it would only lead to a black market.
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TransitJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #4
13. Totally agree.
No gun control. It's not rational to selectively enfore the Bill of Rights.
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #4
21. Agreed...
... there are a few entrenched liberals who just cannot get their heads around the gun issue. Sure, if THERE WAS A WAY to confiscate all guns, would society be better off? Maybe.

I claim that even if that were possible, folks would manufacture them in shops all over the country, just like they grow pot and brew liquor and make meth.

People are going to have what they want to have and "laws" are really not at the top of their concerns.

Me, I went from being an anti-gun Republican to a pro-gun Dem. Over the last few years I've collected a firearm for every purpose I can reasonably conceive of. And I feel the way the "black helicopter" crowd feels, I don't trust the government and I'd prefer an armed populace to a bunch of helpless sheep.
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MissMarple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #4
24. Well, I think the 2nd amendment is about defending the nation from tyranny
And the American people have a collective right to gun ownership. But there are some people who shouldn't have access to guns, and gun owners need some regulation, as in well regulated. IMHO

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


And all that hunting stuff politicians do to show they support gun ownership...the second amendment isn't about hunting....game.


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mainegreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. How can you defend agaist tyranny
if you are well regulated? If all guns belong to the militia? No way a militia wont be run By the tyranny. The ability to defend against tyranny from above can be accomplished if each individual possesses the means himself to resist. Hence, unregulated personal ownership of guns.
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MissMarple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Well, being able to aim, shoot the gun, hit what you arm at and reload
would be helpful, now wouldn't it? And some people are not competent to have a gun at all (think George W. Bush). And the 2nd amendment specifically says "well regulated militia" most specifically so. I didn't say a formally organized militia. The amendment clearly calls for a well regulated one, not one composed of criminally or mentally incompetent persons who can get hold a gun. That would devolve into a crazed mob, not evolve into a well ordered militia.

So, did you want to amend the amendment? "Well regulated" has to stand for something, you can't just ignore it.
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mainegreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. We do some regulation now.
Not just anyone can own a gun. Violent offenders can't. That's regulation. Plus most gun owners (at least around here) use their guns regularly during hunting season and are excellent shots.

I definitly admit I subscibe to the notion that militia=armed populace.
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MissMarple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. And I believe the original framers thought so as well.
But counting on "most" of the armed populace to be good shots and responsible gun owners doesn't fall under "well regulated". It is more like a hope and a prayer. I have seen some real idiots with guns and they are downright scary. I'm sure you have, as well. Some of these people are not dissimilar to a drunken teen behind the wheel of a sports car. Can we prevent that from ever happening? No. Can we minimize the occurrence? Yes.

And our gun laws are a hodge podge of inconsistencies and need revision and coherence. If we want that to happen we need to agree on what "well regulated" means. I don't know what that is myself. I just know that it needs to be worked out, an intelligent consensus need to be reached.

As it is now, the politicians on both sides of the aisle think they are better off using this as a "rally the base" issue and are not at all interested in sorting this out. They think they are better off keeping Americans divided and bickering. So far they seem to be right.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. Not around here!!!!
most gun owners around here couldn't hit shit.

That's why the murder in front of my house a couple months ago took 6 shots.

I'm so sick of guns I could PUKE.

I'd be willing to compromise with you folks who live in rural areas. I see no reason that you shouldn't have your long guns to hunt with.

I JUST DON'T WANT THE FUCKING THINGS IN MY CITY!!!!! I don't want any "federal gun sellers" in my town selling the fucking things out of the trunk of their cars. There is NO, NO, NO, NO reason for anyone to carry a gun in my city.

But because of a lousy interpretation of the 2nd amendment preempting our right to legislate against these murderous devices, we can't protect ourselves against this disease!!!

When I was a kid, the worst you had to worry about was the occasional switchblade. Now every little snot-nose has a 9 millimeter or a tech-9.

I'd also put my money on the Army and the Police over your "militia-armed populace". It's a fiction that your silly guns are going to make sure that you're safe from "tyranny". Take your head out of the sand and look at a REAL civilization, Europe, who seem to do quite well without guns thank you. It's because the gun culture is inconceivable, it's unnecessary.

The only real defense against tyranny is a real democracy. We don't have a real representative democracy here and that's why you're all afraid.
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mainegreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-10-05 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #38
53. Europe is not safer without guns.
Thats completely daft. I've spent a lot of time over there in some of the nicer gun-free countries. Guess what? Criminals have guns. And knives. And all the other crap ours have here. Plenty of the cities are dangerous over there. This "safe Europe" idea some people seem to think exists is nonsense. Oh sure, in Norway maybe. But thats not because of gun control. Its because Norway is big, homogeneous and everyone has a nice standard of living. The Netherlands on the other hand is totally gun free and socialist, but not homogeneous. Rotterdam, Amsterdam, Den Hague NOT safe in many areas. Finland: Safe with a reported 50% gun ownership rate! Its not the guns that make those snot-nose kids dangerous. Its our society.

As for putting your money on the Police and Army over the people in a war? I don't think history backs you up on that one! Armies tend to fare very badly against an armed and pissed population. Even the big armies like ours, England's (at times past) and Russia's have sucked pond water. Initially they do very well, march in and "claim territory". But guess what? That territory tends to be very hard to hold on to, being that its not really as conquered as the invaders think. Eventually moral collapses and viola, big army defeated. If our army were to turn against our populace, it would be already at a huge moral disadvantage. Plus every army needs a home base, a source of food and supply distribution. This would collapse and be disrupted if the army were in effect attacking its own populous. That and a large part of this country is cold, forested and mountainous or hot, forested and swampy OR mountainous. This environment is the peoples ally and bad for big, mechanized military. And I think you seriously don't understand America's gun culture if you think the guns people own are 'silly'. All guns kill. Even the silly ones. Most guns around here are designed to take down a fast moving buck or moose at range. They WILL take down any soldier as well. Plus most people have their hunting gun (s) as well as their 'toy' gun. Generally these 'toy' guns will take down anything, causing massive internal damage just from the shock waves these bad boys produce in the flesh. Organs-be-gone!

U.S. Army vs U.S. People
480,000 active duty US population: 295,734,134
555,000 in reserve Gun ownership rate: 29%
Total: 1,035,000 Armed Households: 85,762,898

And I bet most reservist would not show up in this situation.

Its not even really a fair fight.
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hollowdweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-10-05 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #30
46. Sounds like most people were more afraid of the cops shooting them.

Than criminals. I trust the Man less with guns than the general populace.
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Leftest Donating Member (232 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #24
33. Well I agree to an extent: BUT
Its important to know that The Second Amendment isn't the sole governance upon which we derive our rights to keep and bear arms. If you wish to study this matter in-depth, you'll discover (to the dismay of anti-gun folks) that while the Second Amendment is indeed only about collective rights for the sole purpose of defending the Republic. It nevertheless is not exclusionary from permitting individual ownership of (and this is the shocking part) the "common" arms of the time for said reasons -- "The security of a free State."

To fully understand the Second Amendment, it is not only necessary to read it -and- the many statements made concerning the matter by our founding fathers, but it is also important to research judicial litigation -- especially early judicial litigation.


The Second Amendment


A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Surely one of the most argued about topics concerning its meaning, and in my opinion, misunderstood.

Please allow me to elaborate.

In short: The Second Amendment does not grant individuals the right to keep and bear arms, rather, it affirms two human rights. (1) That people have an inherent right to security by means of protecting themselves with arms. (2) That when necessary, they have a right to form militias to secure their safety and freedoms -- that includes defending themselves against their own government.

One thing I always point out to "collective" rights individuals is that the term "Militia" doesn't just mean National Guards (as is often mistakenly argued). It also means a defined class of private citizens as well.

In the United States Code: USC Title 10 Section 311 Militia composition and classes: Are as follows:

    (a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

    (b) The classes of the militia are—

    (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and

    (2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.




U.S. Supreme Court


In my opinion, to fully understand this subject, it is important for us not to ignore earlier litigation by the courts. And after you have studied the courts' positions on this subject. The only conclusion I can see one drawing on this subject is: Personal private ownership of firearms is a inalienable right not reliant upon the Second Amendment, and that the Second Amendment itself is a right of the citizen to form militias bearing their own arms or the common arms of the time to defend the security of our Republic.

Now here's a few U.S. Supreme Court cases I think are important:


United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542 (1876) This was the first case in which the Supreme Court had the opportunity to interpret the Second Amendment. The Court recognized that the right of the people to keep and bear arms was a right which existed prior to the Constitution when it stated that such a right

"is not a right granted by the Constitution . . . neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence."

The indictment in Cruikshank charged, inter alia, a conspiracy by Clansman to prevent blacks from exercising their civil rights, including the bearing of arms for lawful purposes.

The Court held, however, that because the right to keep and bear arms existed independent of the Constitution, and the Second Amendment guaranteed only that the right shall not be infringed by Congress, the federal government had no power to punish a violation of the right by a private individual; rather, citizens had "to look for their protection against any violation by their fellow-citizens" of their right to keep and bear arms to the police power of the state.

Now this brings us to the next case:



Presser v. Illinois, 116 U.S. 252 (1886) Although the Supreme Court affirmed the holding in Cruikshank that the Second Amendment, standing alone, applied only to action by the federal government, it nonetheless found the states without power to infringe upon the right to keep and bear arms, holding that

"the States cannot, even laying the constitutional provision in question out of view, prohibit the people from keeping and bearing arms, as so to deprive the United States of their rightful resource for maintaining the public security and disable the people from performing their duty to the general government."

Presser, moreover, plainly suggested that the Second Amendment applies to the states through the Fourteenth Amendment and thus that a state cannot forbid individuals to keep and bear arms. To understand why, it is necessary to understand the statutory scheme the Court had before it.

The statute under which Presser was convicted did not forbid individuals to keep and bear arms but rather forbade "bodies of men to associate together as military organizations, or to drill or parade with arms in cities and towns unless authorized by law . . . ." Thus, the Court concluded that the statute did not infringe the right to keep and bear arms.

The Court, however, went on to discuss the Privileges and Immunities Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, noting that "it is only the privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States that the clause relied on was intended to protect."

As the Court had already held that the substantive right to keep and bear arms was not infringed by the Illinois statute since that statue did not prohibit the keeping and bearing of arms but rather prohibited military-like exercises by armed men, the Court concluded that it did not need address the question of whether the state law violated the Second Amendment as applied to the states by the Fourteenth Amendment.



And of course we can't forget to look at this next case.

U.S. v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174 (1939) This is the only case in which the Supreme Court has had the opportunity to apply the Second Amendment to a federal firearms statute. The Court, however, carefully avoided making an unconditional decision regarding the statute's constitutionality; it instead devised a test by which to measure the constitutionality of statutes relating to firearms and remanded the case to the trial court for an evidentiary hearing (the trial court had held that Section 11 of the National Firearms Act was unconstitutional). The Court remanded to the case because it had concluded that:

"In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a "shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length" at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense."

Thus, for the keeping and bearing of a firearm to be constitutionally protected by the Second Amendment, the firearm should be a militia-type arm, i.e. common arms of the time. Today that would be the M16 rifle.

The case also made clear that the militia consisted of "all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense" and that

"when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time."

In setting forth this definition of the militia, the Court implicitly rejected the view that the Second Amendment guarantees a right only to those individuals who are members of the militia. Had the Court viewed the Second Amendment as guaranteeing the right to keep and bear arms only to "all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense," it would certainly have discussed whether, on remand, there should also be evidence that the defendants met the qualifications for inclusion in the militia, much as it did with regard to the militia use of a short-barreled shotgun.

-------------------------------


So anyway as you can see, there's lots more to the Second Amendment than you hear from most people commenting about it. And the important thing not to lose sight of IMO is: Remember, the constitution doesn't grant you anything. It merely enumerates a certain list of rights by which all others may be protected.





.
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MissMarple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. Thank you. You are just chock full of information. What's your day job?
:) And, so, in a general way, I am pointed in the right direction? I've been trying to figure this out for a while. I have Akhil Reed Amar's "The Bill of Rights", which has been helpful. If you have any more suggestions... please feel free to share.

I believe that this issue has been unnecessarily promoted as a divisive political issue, as abortion has, and that some intelligent focus, a coordinated effort on resolving it needs to be promoted. But who is doing that? As far as I can see, no one.
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-10-05 03:18 AM
Response to Reply #4
43. You would be surprised
how many on DU are against gun control.

While I had started leaning away from the topic even before participating on DU, DU actually convinced me against it...Not just for political reasons (it detracts from getting the message out on other issue), but constitutionally suspect as well.

So, I came to a decent middle ground. I figure there are some restrictions that might make sense, but I liked Dean's approach to the issue - deemphasize it on a national level and leave it to be mostly a local one.
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ContraBass Black Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-10-05 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #43
49. On the local level,
Allow me to pause and shake a fist at Congress for trying to force D.C. to loosen its gun control laws.
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brokensymmetry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-10-05 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #4
44. Thank you!
I'd like to win some elections. Let's drop the gun control nonsense and fight for something worthwhile...like, say, the House, Senate, and White House.
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ContraBass Black Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-10-05 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #4
48. What kind of gun control are you talking about?
Background checks, age limits, permiting, and mandatory safety training don't take away gun ownership rights (except for convicted violent felons).


"The liberals will take your guns away!" is often the desperate cry from the right as they try to scare gun owners into voting against us, but gun control is not gun prohibition, and we are not (unless you're a convicted violent felon). The idea is to make it safe for gun owners and everyone else around them by making sure that they know how to use their guns and do not have histories of violent crime.

"Gun prohibition is bad, m'kay?"
Agreed.

"Gun control is bad, m'kay?"
I think not.



Since it's the thing to do nowadays, (ducks and runs)
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Zodiak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-10-05 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #4
51. I agree with you...
Gun control is a loser for the Dems. I will not participate in any push to use this tragedy to control guns.

There are a couple more "liberal" issues I would like to abandon, but this one is the primary one. (I dn;t see how it is "liberal" to enforce the bill of rights selectively).
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MisterLiberal Donating Member (442 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-11-05 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #4
56. Flame on!
Let me ask you this; why aren't you a Republican?

We've already got one party waving guns around, and this isn't it.

I'm tired of being told that "the one issue that caused us to lose" was:

* Support for rational gun restrictions

* Support for basic human rights for gays and lesbians

* Our inability to suck up to religious arrogance

* Name Republican policy here

Don't you get it??? If we default on ANY issue, we will have GIVEN THE REPUKES A WIN ON THAT ISSUE! If ***WE*** don't stand on this issue, THERE'S NO ONE LEFT TO STAND FOR IT!
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Daphne08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-11-05 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #4
58. No flames here. Gun Control is one reason the Democrats
have lost so much of the Southern vote, but I don't expect them to admit it.



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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
5. Somebody demonstrate with FACTS
that there was a statistically significant increase in violent crimes during the storm - (and that most certainly does not include looting necessities) - and I might agree to any such proposal. Until then I will continue to consider all discussions on this topic as simply catapulting the hateful murderous rightwing fascist propaganda.

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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
7. Why do democrats always insist on LOSING
by taking positions which are doomed to fail.

There are 250 million guns in the US.

Are you gonna seize them all?

Anyway, the guns were taken from Wal-Mart after the storm hit, or at least a lot of them

How would your regulations have helped in Katrina?


Geeze.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Issue is not Gun Control, it is to Stop Scapegoating NOLA, Read Header
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mainegreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. Way to subtle.
Any freeper won't get it. They'll just flip out because you said gun control. I don't think we should get freepers mad. I want to CONVERT them. Brainwash them to the left-hand path!
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #15
39. FUCK THE FREEPERS
I don't want to convert them. They'll always be the sick fucks they are. There will ALWAYS be a percentage of evil bastards in any society.

We need to MARGINALIZE them, remake the society so that their sick opinions don't matter.

Most people WANT reasonable gun control. This is NOT a loser issue. Why else do you think DINO DiFi can be pro-gun control in CA (sort of) and still get elected every 6 years?

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MisterLiberal Donating Member (442 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-11-05 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #15
57. Futile
They have to have a brain first.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
10. Why shoot yourself in the foot....
figuratively?
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
11. "Modest Suggestion" means "All is not what it seems"
It refers to the (in)famnous proposal to solve an Irish famine by having the Irish eat their own children. The author was mocking the British indifference to Irish poverty, but the British did not realize this and thought that he was serious and were horrified.

In simple prose: I do not want to ban guns. I want Freepers to stop bad mouthing people of NOLA.
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Kitsune Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #11
25. "A Modest Proposal"
</nitpick> :)
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
12. It actually made me consider buying a gun
If my government is going to abandon me, I want protection.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Good. I am proud that so many at DU are mavericks. I agree.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
16. Gun control is a loser issue that the Democrats should abandon
Nothing has led to the current state of reaction more than the stupid adherence to gun control in the 1990's.
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losdiablosgato Donating Member (649 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #16
22. Agreed
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
19. No. This is the wrong issue at the wrong time. Conflation would kill us
Gun control is an issue for another time.

It is too focused to be discussed in the context of Katrina.

And you wanna talk about politicizing. HoooooBoy would that be politicizing.

Maybe later.

In a gun control debate.

Use this as an example.

But please. Not now.

(And while I am in favor, not of gun control, but of a total ban on them in any form or type, gun control is a loser issue and my dreams of that total ban need to remain unmet for the time being. For now, I will assume a 'no comment' or 'status quo' posture on gun control. Indeed, in the interest of getting our side back in power, I will even accept some loosening of gun controls if that helps us. Gun control, in this day and time, is a loser issue for us. Period.)
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Mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
20. I don't understand that tsunami nations have good gun control laws
If there is a gun control law it is only as good as the people's desire to obey it. I guess you are saying that people in the tsunami countries obey their gun control laws.

I really doubt that people in NOLA will give up their guns because some agency thinks it will prevent gun violence. They will simply hide their guns. People are turning to violence because they have no other model to follow in this country. Look how many people have turned on the poor and have no compassion for their plight.
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Fescue4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
23. Disgusting
Edited on Fri Sep-09-05 11:50 AM by Fescue4u
what a vile thought.

But hey, I guess theres nothing wrong with using a tragedy to advance a political agenda if its YOUR political agenda right?



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T Town Jake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
26. There ya go...
...let's just get a head start on losing the 2008 presidential election by continuing to push this loser of an issue known as "gun control." After all, it gave the repugs control of the Congress in '94, tipped the balance just enough to make the theft of 2000 look at least plausibly legitimate, and wiped us out again in '02. What's not to like?

:sarcasm:
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
29. Gun Control is tyranny
If you take a away a person's ability to defend himself then you can oppress him.
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belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
34. At this point I'm starting to think learning to shoot would be a fine idea
frankly. Sorry.
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MissMarple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. Actually, with ear protection, it can be fun.
:)
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
35. Read this HATE email about victims of Katrina in NOLA, then ask
Edited on Fri Sep-09-05 03:35 PM by McCamy Taylor
yourself "Am I willing to play a cat and mouse game with Repuke scum who play blame the victim games with the elderly and infirm, toying with their rabid fear of anything that smacks of gun control/safety/registration in order to get them to shut the hell up?"

People here who are wringing their hands over some imagined massive political defeat in 2008 really have me puzzled. All I am talking about is a minor skirmish in a war of words, not a major political offensive. I can see how Freeper on the Board would want to keep NOLA from becoming a Gun Control Issue, but you guys are not Freeper moles. Chill. A few Dems can act all prissy about guns and the Democratic base will not be disturbed one bit.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2072897&mesg_id=2072897
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doc03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 09:36 PM
Response to Original message
40. Any Repugs that have come over to our side
will be pushed back over in a NY minute.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
41. Hell no! This is certainly not the time for the Left and other...
progressives to abandon gun ownership. We will need them.
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texpatriot2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-10-05 03:00 AM
Response to Original message
42. I like it. n/t
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hollowdweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-10-05 08:08 AM
Response to Original message
45. Did anybody hear This American Life last night??


They were interviewing a lady who was in the Superdome and she said that the gangbangers all figured out who had guns and set up security around their group in the Superdome so nobody would hurt them and then they went out and looted a Rite Aid and looted water and food and brought it back to the people (mostly old and sick) that they were protecting. She said they were the most helpful, and that she was more afraid of getting shot by the cops than anyone else.

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ContraBass Black Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-10-05 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #45
50. That's no surprise nowadays.
Sometimes, the law doesn't come form the Law.
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lynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-10-05 08:22 AM
Response to Original message
47. I do believe that will backfire -
- as the NOLA violence is the perfect poster-child for gun SUPPORT - not gun control.

That, at least, seems to be the opinion of most everyone I've heard discuss the violence there. Gun control won't get any support if compared to the situation in NO.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-10-05 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #47
54. If the NRA and Part of Right DEFENDS NOLA then Right is DIVIDED
Edited on Sat Sep-10-05 04:02 PM by McCamy Taylor
Meaning a political victory for the Dems. So, by all means, encourage the NRA and gun loving types to celebrate the rights of the citizens of NOLA to bear arms to protect themselves while Karen Hughes denounces them as a shameful blight on America's reputation abroad (hey, doesnt she know these people were just defending themselves?)

Now, do you see where this is supposed to lead? I tiny little Dem voice tentatively suggesting gun control and a big outcry by NRA types saying "Hell, no, those people in NOLA were just defending themselves damn it! The feds cant be trusted." And a great big internal split within the ranks of the Republican Party.

NRA is starting to take notice of NOLA:

http://www.newsbull.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=26761
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LoneDriver Donating Member (99 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-10-05 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
52. Absolutely right
Only the police and NG should have access to guns.:sarcasm:
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