Any Word On The Death Toll In NO? n/t

[global1]

[liberal N proud]

1. The bu$h regime and FEMA will keep a tight lid on that number and

may never tell the actual numbers of dead.
You will never know the numbers that died between the time the hurricane hit and when everyone was finally evacuated.

[Julius Civitatus]

43. I'm very afraid that may be the case

There should be NO BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT for FEMA, not even a little bit. They have failed miserably, in the most embarrassing of fashions. THe media should focus on the people running FEMA like a laser beam, and keep a healthy dose of skepticism about everything they release, specially body-counts.

[newscott]

2. No idea. Bits and pieces of stories coming out

The town outside NO being used for mortuary staging recieved truckloads today. Make of that what you will.

Read a story of 30 or so nursing home patients in an NO suburb who drowned.

Talk of 100 bodies found in a warehouse on the waterfront.

[MADem]

4. That town of ST GABRIEL had many, many frigo-trucks out in front of the

temporary morgue. They weren't little ones either, and if the remains were stacked, there could be an awful lot of people in the trucks. Even if there was only one layer, which would be rather unlikely, they were HUGE.

[zann725]

21. That short film clip of Olberman last night showed several large semi's

rolling down the road. And the clip obviously did NOT show the entire parade of semi-tractor trucks of bodies. It took my breath away. You're right. The potential number of bodies that could be stacked in each of these is overwhelming. Certainly trucks that large would NOT have been used to transport a smaller amount of bodies.

THIS is criminal. Mass murder on this scale?!

[HysteryDiagnosis]

3. There will be more than we will be able to believe.....

[Wcross]

5. Try to remember, people died in the storm itself.

Lets not try to come off as irrational. Bush didn't order the storm up and regardless of the response time it is likely that the majority of those killed in the storm would have died anyways.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

6. Yeah... I know... I'm gonna edit that.... I am just so frigging upset.

[Skittles]

7. minisucle number died in the hurricane compared to what came after

they would have died anyway? THOUSANDS WOULD NOT HAVE DIED IF THE FEDS HAD DONE THEIR G.D. JOBS

[Wcross]

8. Really?

I disagree. A class 4 hurricane hitting the gulf coast caused the majority of deaths. How could the feds prevented the deaths?

[Skittles]

11. I DISAGREE

the hurricane hit and of course some people died - but it was the ENTIRELY PREVENTABLE CRUMBLING OF THE LEVEES THAT CAUSED THE STAGGERING NUMBERS OF DEATHS. THIS is the stuff that has been defunded by bush assholes to give more money for their piece of SHIT phony "war on terror". ADD TO THAT the despicable NON-RESPONSE of rescue efforts for pretty much FIVE DAYS and what happened amounts to GEONOCIDE.

[Wcross]

15. So you know how many dead and where they died?

How many died on the coast of Missippi? How many outside of New Orleans but still in the state of LA? How many died inside the flooded area of New Orleans? I haven't seen the report yet, please post a link of deaths by location and cause of death.
I want to know if the majority that died did so from the storm or from neglect as the poster claimed.

[Skittles]

17. DO YOU KNOW?

?????????????

I would surmise that when EIGHTY PERCENT OF NEW ORLEANS FLOODED WITH UP TO TWENTY FEET OF WATER, *THAT* IS WHEN MOST OF THE PEOPLE DIED AND THOUSANDS MORE DIED DUE TO NEGLECT IN THE WEEK AFTERWARDS. This is RATIONAL THINKING.

[Wcross]

20. So its all about New Orleans then?

We are not including the dead outside of the city? Well, that changes the whole situation then. I knew for sure there was termendous loss of life along the gulf shore and the delta area that could be directly attributed to the storm itself. I guess if we disregard those deaths then maybe the majority of deaths (in the city of New Orleans) were caused by neglect.

I guess the others lost don't count.

[tnlefty]

27. Nope. There have also been reports of FEMA turning away relief -

water, ice, generators,etc., in and around the Biloxi area. I believe that this area was where the German journalist reported the staged photo op that Bush** had with his relief convoy.

I do believe that many of the deaths in NO and possibly in other areas is a direct result of relief efforts being turned away by FEMA.

[Skittles]

28. WTF?

..........NOWHERE DID I SAY DEATH ONLY OCCURRED IN NEW ORLEANS - I SAID THE MAJORITY OF DEATHS WERE THERE AND THE NUMBER ONE REASON IS NEGLECT BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT

You sound like the next RNC talking point.......most of these people were already dead when bush was strumming a guitar and eating cake :puke:

[Wcross]

33. No, I am just not in lock step with your talking point.

Imagine a 25ft wall of water , full of debris rushing inland. You decided to ride out the storm just like you did Camille back in 69. This one is worse than Camille though. There is no longer anywhere to run to, nowhere to hide.
I blame any deaths in New Orleans on the failure of the federal government. The city didn't suffer much structural damage during the storm. The Levee breaking is what killed people in New Orleans.
Seeing as we DO NOT have a clue as to how many in total have died and where they died we can not say with any confidence why they died.

BTW- It seems as if all else fails in your arguement you fall back on "freeper alert". I guess there is no room for people that think for themselves here, huh?

[niallmac]

12. They could have followed their own NPR

As I understand the National Response Plan and the duty of government in general, it was the responsibility of the feds to prepare for disaster scenarios that had been clearly identified. NO was a known disaster waiting to happen. Evacuation must have been identified as a huge potential problem. Did Homeland Security decide that Mayor Nagin can take care of evacuating hundreds of thousands of poor people without the cars? If an evacuation of this magnitude was considered untenable then a massive and rapid deployment of resources should have been anticipated. Even I was aware of Lake Ponchatrain and the disaster scenario that existed waiting for a hurricane to arrive. This was not a surprise. This was not inevitable. This was a low priority.

[Lochloosa]

13. Also disagree..

Andrew did not cause 1000's of deaths, Hugo did not cause thousands of deaths...on and on and on...it wasn't the hurricane that caused the majority of deaths..it was the leavies being breached. And the nonresponce from FEMA...and let me point out the E in FEMA...EMERGENCY

Edit to add: you know Wcross I went to your profile to see how many
post you had and it's disabled....and no star by your name...
"very interesting"

[Wcross]

18. And yet, no answers from you.

So you know how many died from the storm and its aftermath so far? Let us in on the secret! How many people were washed out to sea? How many died in the initial storm surge? How could anyone tell if someone could have been saved in a timely manner with a disaster of this magnitude. As far as your edited comments- does that make your claim any more valid?

[barb162]

22. The interesting thing about this hurricane was it huge storm surge

29 feet, the highest recorded in the US (per Newsweek). Hugo had something like a 10 foot surge. That surge, I think, caused Pontchartrain to overflow the levee and also killed a lot of people in Mississippi. All those floating casinos in Mississippi weren't pushed a half mile inland from the wind but that unbelievable high and strong storm surge. That was a Category 5 storm surge

[Wcross]

24. My point exactly- We don't even have a freaking body count!

People are convinced for some reason or another that more people died in their attics in New Orleans than died in the storm surge. The surge went up to two miles inland. It devestated Boloxi and Gulfport. They found 25 people tied together in the delta wrapped around a tree. 30 died in their apartment complex near Boloxi when they attempted to ride out the storm and died in the surge. My hatred of Bush is as strong as anyones. I just would like facts to attack him- not rumor and assumption.

[barb162]

25. I think a lot of dead will be found i nPlaquemines Parish. I believe

the lower two thirds of that entire parish are still completely under water. They (CNN or MSNBC) also said in Buras (where the hurricane made landfall) the only thing visible above the water is the cross on the church steeple. It is as if the whole lower part of LA, 40 miles,is now under water...part of that state has just about washed the hell away and become part of the gulf.

[Wcross]

34. I just hope the people evacuated. n/t

[kath]

30. The storm surge was highest on the MS coast, which took a direct hit

from the hurricane. It was not as high at New Orleans.

[barb162]

37. I agree, but the surge, rain and wind were enough to overflow

and weaken the levees.

"The lake, which normally is 1 foot above sea level, peaked at 8.6 feet above sea level, said English.

As of Thursday afternoon the water had dropped to 2.5 feet above sea level."

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/01/orleans.levees/

[gulfcoastliberal]

47. Scour

The peripheral effects of the storm caused the foundations of the levees to fail as their foundations got scoured away by hydraulic action of all the water. This probably wouldn't have happened if we didn't ship all those billions to Iraq. While I primarily blame Bush and his dismantling of FEMA & stacking it with unqualified cronies for the deaths after the storm, (most) of the congressional dems certainly voted his way on all his spending bills - which slashed the Army Corps of Engineers levee budget requests for NO. Dems could have tried to attach riders to the bills re-appropriating the budget requests for those levee projects (maybe they did, but I've not heard of it). Pussy ass congressional dems!

[barb162]

54. tell me something... noticing your name, what do you think of

buying out people on the coast after a hurricane and making it national seashore v. rebuilding the same houses in the same spots. In other words, have people live no closer to the water than about a mile or two inland

[MADem]

35. Two words--evacuation assistance

Military transport aircraft, buses, trucks, to bring people to evacuation staging areas at airports to be loaded on AIRCRAFT and flown to safe haven...all in advance of the storm.

USN or USNS vessels to take people from ports to ride out the storm at sea or transport them to Pensacola to wait ashore--thousands could have been accomodated this way, with hospital facilities, too.

LEADERSHIP: Had the President gone on TV and told everyone to get the fuck out, assured them that they would be fed and housed during the emergency, maybe they would have complied. They had a choice between staying in their own surroundings and taking a risk that their home would stand, or going to a Superdome full of people with no assurances at all.

Instead, he ate cake and strummed a guitar, while Cheney shopped for mansions, and Condi shopped for shoes. But hey, ole Golf Shirt Brownie did a heckofa job!!!!

[Wcross]

40. Was there time before the storm?

http://www.indybay.org/archives/archive_by_id.php?id=3561&category_id=16

"Warning Signs: On Saturday 8/27, the National Hurricane Center in Miami extended a Hurricane Watch for Louisiana and President Bush declared a state of emergency in Louisiana. Mandatory evacuation orders were issued for some of Louisiana's low-lying areas and Katrina was expected to increase to become a Category 4 hurricane; "This is a very, very dangerous hurricane," said NHC Director Max Mayfield"

Ok, the hurricane hit Monday morning. What you are suggesting could not have happened. How do you get the military equipment down to the coast, collect the people and be gone in less than 48 hours. Your idea of ships would not have worked. I have no link for this but I recall hearing the seas were topping 65' before they lost the signal from the noaa bouy in the gulf. The result would have been dead sailors along with those they "rescued".

In all the other hurricanes that have hit our coasts has the federal government conducted the evacuation?

[MADem]

41. It does not take DAYS to fly a military transport plane from ANYWHERE

It takes HOURS. A C-141 could haul tons of people out, the more C-141's, the more people to haul. They sortied a couple of ships from Pascagoola well ahead of the storm--they easily could have packed the mess decks full and headed for Pensacola. They could have used the USAF base as a sortie point for the air evacuation.

In addition to rounding up buses, they also could have gotten the unglamorous flatbed trucks, and all purpose utility trucks from the ANG, and shoved people in those and moved out.

It could have been done. We did it in IRAN in 1979 after the Shah fell with a day and a half's notice, language problems, and a civilian contractor population that was scattered from Teheran to Esfahan and points beyond.

[Wcross]

46. In what other hurricane has Fema run the evacuation?

In other areas the State runs the evacuation. Please point out an instance where Fema has run a major evacuation.
I agree 100% that there were many killed due to the slow response by the Federal government but Up until the point the storm made landfall it is up to the State to evacuate.

BTW- You have never served in the military have you? If you did you would know that things just don't work as fast as you claim they do. You would also know that the Navy does not put its ships and sailors into the eye of a hurricane for any reason and if they did, they would never do it close to shore. 65+ foot waves tend to sink things. The Iran evacuation you point to wasn't a sudden 3 or 4 day event - people knew it was coming.

[MADem]

48. Hey, three decades in the military, thank you very much

In positions of ever increasing responsibility and authority, and of course ACCOUNTABILITY--a foreign concept to this administration.

And I have engaged in Humanitarian Relief operations in Eastern Europe, Africa, the ME, Asia and the Med. And yes, it DOES happen fast when you have competent leadership. It can be lightning quick with the right person barking orders.

I think the issue is that other states ravaged by hurricanes have not had quite so many poor folk....mostly Florida, historically. Of course, it always helps when the governor's brother is the prez, and his pal Brownie is handing out checks like penny candy. It also helps when there is dry land to head to, without flooded highways, and cars to take you there. Hell, you don't even have to leave the state, they bring the trailers to you!

And not without significance--I fully, completely and absolutely understand how to sortie a vessel behind a hurricane--my thirty years were USN, many at sea. You never stay in port, you always run ahead or behind or around...and our ships move faster than hurricanes or taifuns, assuming the power plant is up to snuff, which it always is if you even bother to try to get underway.

I've also done a shitload of joint ops. I am not an absolute expert in USAF/USA operations, but I know enough to be joint qual'ed. Which is more than many in those branches who are not qual'ed know, to be frank about it.

As for the Iran evac, I was on one of those aircraft. I had forty eight short hours notice--not four days, thank you. I left with three changes of clothes in a flight bag, got on a C-141 and found myself quite happily in Greece. Lost EVERYTHING--household goods, car, material posssessions. Had no idea when I embarked where we were headed, but when we crossed Turkish airspace we all cheered.

I've seen it done right. This mess in Louisiana and Mississippi was a clusterfuck of staggering proportions. There's no apologies, no coverups, no nothing that will mitigate this disaster. It is a disgrace and a shame on our nation that will resonate for a long time.

Sorry you cannot seem to see that.

[Wcross]

51. Yet you suggested using naval vessels before the storm?

"I fully, completely and absolutely understand how to sortie a vessel behind a hurricane--my thirty years were USN"

Doesn't sound like your previous plan to get people out BEFORE the storm. You suggested putting evacuee's on board ship. Either it would be 40/50 at a time on chinook's/CH46's or drive the boats up river to New Orleans. I am surprised a sailor would overlook these small facts. Of course I was only a Marine and never rose above the rank of corporal.

An airlift would have helped some- but even today they are having to drag people out of their homes. How many would it have taken to go door to door to get those folks out? You would also have to provide for the evacuation of the people you send in.

quote--
"I have engaged in Humanitarian Relief operations in Eastern Europe, Africa, the ME, Asia and the Med. And yes, it DOES happen fast when you have competent leadership."

How many of those operations were conducted before the event? How many have you removed from harms way ahead of the storm?

I ask again- is it protocol to depend on FEMA to conduct the evacuation phase of a natural disaster? If so, why the complaints when Andrew hit south Florida? They too asked where Fema was.

What did you think of desert one? How many died trying to rescue people? Oh, they had a year to plan that one. This didn't start as a military operation. The evacuation of Iran did.

All I am saying that no matter what, people were going to die from this storm and the majority died as a result of the 160mph winds, the 25-35ft storm surge, tornado's and heavy seas in the gulf. I would be lying to myself to believe the majority died from dehydration and lack of medical care. The odds are against that. The odds of completing an evacuation of everybody in the storm area ahead of the storm are pure fantasy.

We have every right to pissed about the pitiful attempt shown thus far in the aftermath. There are small towns in the delta that have YET to receive help. People are spread across the country without knowing if their family is alive. We should concentrate on things we can change rather than what we can't. Sure, blame Boy george but he ain't running for office again and it sure looks like he doesn't give a rats ass about it anyways.

(Damn- only four werds mis-spelt when I spell-cheecked the post! Not bad for an old Jar-head.)

[MADem]

52. Excuse me, 2 FFGs sortied from Pascagoula AHEAD of the storm

Not after--ahead. From pierside. What other vessels were pierside at the civilian port as well, that sortied without taking away any folks? You could fit a town on a tanker--might not be glamorous, but living beats dying. They could have taken aboard the people in the lowest lying areas of MS.

Ahead of the storm, aircraft evacuated from Keesler--how many left empty? Why could they have not flown in a/c from Lackland, Westover, Willow Grove, where ever, mustered those folks and flown them to safe haven?

They did manage to do some flights from NOLA to Marietta, but I guess you had to know someone to get on that list: http://www.afrc.af.mil/afrcnews/05122.asp Why weren't more a/c sent to NOLA to grab those folks and get them to safety?

This sort of thing takes federal coordination, and there was none. It isn't something a mayor or governor can do. And it isn't like the feds did not KNOW this was coming--if we get an earthquake in San Fran, the chimp really WILL have hit the trifecta.

The issue with HumRels is not always getting there ahead of the storm, it is getting there within two days after the storm--not a week or more, when eating cake and strumming the gee-tar take priority. After two days, discipline breaks down...people will be patient, but only for so long. We did a helluva lot better job providing assistance to the tsunami victims--we were there in TWO DAYS--than we did for our OWN citizens, and no amount of spin can change that brutal, shameful fact.

WRT to it being "protocol" for FEMA to do evacuations: you cut your cloth according to your measure. It isn't "protocol" for almost thirty percent of an American city to live in brutal poverty, making under $16K a year, but that was the reality for the citizens of NOLA. Federally managed levees were standing between the storm and the Americans living in the city, so FEMA should have been there ahead of time--not just for the people, but for the energy assets (which they sure managed to do a better job protecting than our citizens, frankly) in the region.

I'll tell you what I thought of DESERT ONE--it was a fuckup of incredible proportions, because every muthafucking service wanted a piece of the pie and the credit. It did one good thing--it created jointness/purple uniforms, interoperability, and tasking based on strengths and logic. They should have sent in either Delta Force or Seals on aircraft piloted by old Nam pilots who flew for BHI and Sikorsky who had been evacuated out of Iran only six months before, who knew that terrain like the back of their hands and knew enough that you had to tweak and screen your powerplants to compensate for things like altitude and desert dust. But no one asked those guys for help, and they fucking well should have. That mess could have and should have been avoided.

And the evacuation of Iran, FWIW, did NOT start as a military operation. The State Department issued one of their travel warnings, but for people who were already there, it started as "If you want to quit, you pay your own way home." I shit you not. H. Ross Perot flew in there and got all of his E Systems people out at his personal expense, while Sikorsky, Westinghouse, BHI and a bunch of other outfits sat there and did nothing. People were getting shot in the street, the Pasaradan were taking hostages. The State Department held off until AFTER the Shah departed and AFTER Khomeini arrived to call for an evacuation of all but hyper-essential personnel in the Embassy.

But it went down FAST when it finally went down.

[Wcross]

57. I guess in hindsight, that would have been a good idea.

Thats not what happened though. It would have been a first if it had. I fail to see how you would have convinced people to get out of their homes and get on the transport though. The people did not take the threat for what it was and decided to ride out the storm at home.
I fall back to the gist of the original post. I contend more died from the storm effects than the neglect after.

[SomewhereOutThere424]

39. When the government first started

Land in new orleans was sold dirt cheap to influence growth of the area. Then, fifty years ago we'd known that a category 3 or higher hurricane could destroy the levees. Instead of evacuating people before there was even a hurricane, or putting the kind of money they needed to in fixing the levee, they sat and watched as the people drowned, dealing with their problem of how to transfer a bunch of poor and elderly people by genocide -- and without looking like a nazi (atleast, without being able to have it proven by fact and leaving people to bite eachother's heads off with arguments much like are appearing all over DU).

We're all ants to them, and that's why it's their fault. Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing, and I'm apt to believe there's no good men in congress. "Let's watch the black and some white ants drown today, then we can go bomb the red and yellowish ants tommorow in that other place." We need people who are willing to help us instead of watching us like we're insects in a morbid fascination in america's hour of need. I don't want to be a nameless victim in another disaster it turns out the government knew would come up to fifty years prior, I say it's the government's fault and the feds in not spreading the knowledge that can save lives. They say covering up facts prevents riots -- but did this really help more than preventing panic? You be the judge.

[tom_paine]

50. And the Busheviks will report about 2500 dead

Watch. These poeple are monsters, Soviets & nazis in almost every sense of the word.

their lies will mirror Soviet Casualty Reports in Afghanistan 1989.

[Wordie]

9. Don't know but somebody on Scarborough just said FEMA has 25,000 body bags

on hand.

...oh my God.

[MADem]

36. A small dent in the 200K that were ordered up for Iraq

No, I am not kidding. They also ordered up 5K new personnel transfer tubes, AKA aluminum coffins, at the start of the war, because some of the Vietnam era ones were just too beat up, and even replacing the seals they could not maintain integrity of the caskets.

[electron_blue]

10. They're treating it like top secret info

With 9/11 we got immediate ridiculously high guesses, then eventually tallies that narrowed in on the final number. With the tsunami we got low estimates at first that continued to increase heartbreakingly, they seemed to almost double for awhile. But we had the numbers.

Now, with Katrina, almost no word on the number of fatalities. It is being closely guarded by the media. WHY? Not to be a ghoul about it, but traditionally, body counts are plastered all over the MSM?

[MADem]

42. That one morgue in ST GABRIEL can process 500-1000 remains per day

They've been at it for a few days now. I guess we will just have to do the math....

Or read the tea leaves. It's like getting news out of the North Korean government.

I don't blame the media, they are pushing for numbers, it's FEMA that is refusing to release them.

[Pharlo]

14. Tavis Smiley had NO survivors on his show yesterday -

both of whom had been in the Superdome. They said that there were a lot of bodies in there when they left. One of them said it looked like they were using it as a makeshift morgue.

That's probably why they were so reluctant to let Oprah inside - and when they finally did let her in it was under very strict limitations.

[MADem]

44. It was a crime scene, too

CNN reported that the NO police found a "number" of bodies that were murdered AND mutilated following their deaths.

[bvar22]

16. I don't know if we will ever have a believable number.

The New Orleans disaster families are scattered across the country, some never to return.

One thing IS clear:
George Bush* has now killed more Americans than Osama and Al Qaeda!.
(That may make a good bumper sticker)



The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those who advance the agenda of THE RICH (Corporate Owners) at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR.

[PretzelWarrior]

19. surely more than died in 9/11. but with 1/1000 the govmt response

in short term and long term. How can Bush blame an enemy? Therefore...blame no one.

Until it's time to lynch a black mayor over the issue. One less black guy in the world and one less Democrat in the world. ahh...the Bush wet dream.

[MADem]

49. Yeah, the commercials never stopped!!

The TV broke every ten minutes to sell us a mattress or a hot tub or a fabulous new car...the sitcoms kept sitcomming, the chat shows kept chatting, and life went on, unless you were in the NOLA region or knew someone who could well be suffering there.

Probably three times the number of dead, at a bare bones minimum, compared to 911, way more devastation, an entire city looking like Atlantis Lite, but the wheels on the Bush Bus just kept going round and round....

A national disgrace.

FAILURE TO LEAD.

[barb162]

23. I think the mayors and governors of the respective states

will release this info if their citizens demand the answers. Mississippi has been updating numbers daily.

[cliss]

26. I believe there was a message board

where people put notices of missing persons. I believe the total is now up to 94,000.

Now many of these could be duplicate posts, but still that is a huge number.

It's too soon to tell.

I'd like to see the Bush administration cover this up. I know they want to, but I don't think they will be able to.

[barb162]

29. from Bloomberg

The official death count has reached almost 300. Louisiana has recorded 83 dead, said Bob Johannessen, a spokesman for the state's Health and Hospitals Department. Last night, Mississippi Governor Haley Barbour put the state's death toll at 196.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=aVL0UBIleXKQ&refer=us


Keep this guy's name in mind and also his dept.:Bob Johannessen

[HardWorkingDem]

31. Watch what happens with the count....

the Rethugs will say most were just disinterred and not actually new victims.

[Digit]

32. Yep, they will keep a tight lid on this one n/t

[dicknbush]

38. Here is my bet for a headline in a few weeks......

Now that the press are being held back from going into the city the headline will be...

"DEATH TOLL NOT AS HIGH AS ONCE THOUGHT SAYS BUSH"

[cyn2]

45. There'll be a "Friday Night Release"...

of some of the first numbers.

[win_in_06]

53. More like:

Officials Call Katrina Death Toll: "Miraculously Low"

[Lochloosa]

55. Shhhhhh..(it's a secret)

[Igel]

56. It'll take a while.

And it'll take a while to sort out responsibilities.

How many in NOLA from the hurricane? How many from the storm surge? From flooding? From lack of relief?

Then there's apparently a subsided levee near Plaquemines that a geologist pointed out subsided 200-5k% more than expected because of faulting: his report was submitted a few months ago, not enough time for much repair work to be done, or the results to be confirmed by ACoE. It might well be responsible for a lot of the damage east of NOLA.

And how do we count people that die after or during evacuation or fleeing, from car crashes, dysentery, stress, or old age?

And do we use raw numbers, or adjust for known death rates?

And are we going to be able to account for those that were in morgues before Katrina hit?

And, since this is going to increase the stress level on lots of folks for a while, do we include marginal death rates in the total for the next year or so?

It'll take a while.

[Usrename]

58. CNN still showing 145 for the entire state of LA.

They have to know this is a lie.