If Hillary or some other DLC Dem gets the nomination, would you

[genius]

consider an alternative with Kucinich at the top of the ticket and Ron Paul as the VP choice? The reason for suggesting this choice is that it will pull the votes of the normal people in both parties and would have a higher chance of success than a simple third party ticket. Ron Paul has a consistent record of opposing Bush's right-wing attacks on our liberty, of opposing free trade, and of opposing the Halliburton funding. Dennis has a perfect record when it comes to supporting the people and opposing Bush's extremism.

Note: This is purely hypothetical as Dennis is a loyal Democrat.

[MrBenchley]

1. Ron Fucking Paul?

Ron Paul is a far right wing fuckwit. I wouldn't piss on him if he was on fire.

[WildEyedLiberal]

2. No shit

Also, Pat Buchanan opposed the war, too. Big fucking deal, I'd sooner vote for Al From for president than Paul or Buchanan.

[AntiCoup2K4]

6. Al From is worse than Ron Paul or Pat Buchanan

At least they admit they're Republicans and don't endorse PNAC.

Now having said that, while I welcome Paul's voice (and Buchanan's) against this monstrous, treasonous agenda, that doesn't mean I want them setting a domestic agenda which would be as bad as Bush's if not worse. Right wing libertarians aren't friends of education, the environment, or Social Security, just to name a few.

[MrBenchley]

39. Ron Paul is Fred Phelps without the charm and grace (snicker)

What a dimwitted asshole Ron Paul is.

[genius]

4. You must like USA-PATRIOT and the Real ID Act.

Do you consider opposition to Bush's continuation of the war right wing? Do you consider opposition to star wars right wing? Do you consider opposition to CAFTA right wing? Do you consider opposition ot USA-PATRIOT and the Real ID Act right wing?

Ron Paul's record puts that of Nancy Pelosi to shame.

[WildEyedLiberal]

10. Are you that deluded?

So, the only issues that exist are the war, star wars, and CAFTA? What a fucking joke! I guess YOU must hate Social Security, labor unions, the environment, the UN, a progressive tax system, and every social program the US government has enacted, because Ron Paul has consistently voted against all those programs. Why do you hate old people? Why do you hate Meals on Wheels and Social Security? :eyes:

[genius]

13. Paul's got a great environmental record. He opposed Yucca's funding

Every single Democrat from California backed the funding of the radiating of California's water and food supply. Ron Paul joined the Dennis Kucinich and the small number of others who voted to save California and our planet.

[MrBenchley]

45. Paul is anti-environment BIG TIME....

The League of Conservation Voters gives him just 5%.

Hes also anti-birth control, anti-reproductive choice, anti-UN, anti-affirmative action, anti-civil rights, anti-workers rights, etc. etc. etc.

[LoZoccolo]

52. You give him a great environmental record based on ONE LITMUS TEST.

I can't believe this shit. I can, but I can't.

[Freddie Stubbs]

14. Even Barbara Boxer voted for the Real ID Act

She also voted for the Patriot act. Are you saying that Ron Paul would be a better VP than Barbara Boxer?

[genius]

30. Are you saying you blindly support USA-PATRIOT and the Real ID Act?

[MrBenchley]

42. Wise up...

"Ron Paul's record puts that of Nancy Pelosi to shame."
Only if you consider a record as a public laughingstock a plus. Ron Paul is a shithead.

[ISUGRADIA]

60. I love it how you oppose our Democratic leaders

to support an anti-choice, anti-gay rights, anti-environment Republican. But then again, most of your posts seem to bash anyone who's a Democrat and doesn't meet the standards of the bizarre ratings of the "Patrick Henry Think Tank".

[Ciggies and coffee]

35. I have a hell of a lot of respect for him than some DLC trash (nt)

[MrBenchley]

38. You're welcome to his scummy company

He's a raving screwloose...

[Ciggies and coffee]

63. I don't agree with a lot of his positions

On welfare and taxation, in particular. But how are those any worse than being anti-welfare and anti-liberty for individuals, while being the opposite to corporate interests and the rich?
The Republicans and their DLC agents are more rotten.

I have a great respect for Mr. Sanders, Ms. McKinney, and Mr. Kucinich (and maybe a couple dozen others) as well. The rest are whores.

[sellitman]

3. Ron Paul is a wacko .....pleeeeeeeeeeeez!

You have to be kidding!

[genius]

5. You think that opposing Bush is wacko? You must be a fan of Zell Millers

He and Kucinich are Bush's biggest opponents in the House. Paul keeps sending out alerts about Bush's extreme programs that we have to fight.

[WildEyedLiberal]

11. So if someone hates someone who is more conservative than Zell Miller

They must, therefore, like Zell Miller. You have zero touch with reality. Zero. Maybe someday you'll realize that opposition to the fucking war in Iraq doesn't make someone a standup leader. Or do you love Pat Buchanan too, despite all those unpleasant things he's said about Hitler?

[genius]

22. Make an educated statement by looking at the facts,at Paul's voting record

YOu obviously haven't looked or you couldn't make those ridiculous stantements.

Here is a four chart summary of his votes this year. It helps to know what one is talking about.

http://patrickhenrythinktank.org/house-score4.html

[MrBenchley]

54. Paul's voting record is a public comedy

The sumbitch is called "Dr. No." He's the author of hundreds of bills that not even his fellow right wing loonies sign on to.

Here's a sample of some of this dipshit's brainstorms from this session:

H.CON.RES.56 : Expressing the sense of the Congress that the United States should not ratify the Law of the Sea Treaty.

H.CON.RES.132 : Expressing the sense of the Congress that the United States should formally withdraw its membership from the United Nations Educational, Scientific, and Cultural Organization (UNESCO).

H.J.RES.14 : Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States relative to abolishing personal income, estate, and gift taxes and prohibiting the United States Government from engaging in business in competition with its citizens.

H.J.RES.46 : Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States to deny United States citizenship to individuals born in the United States to parents who are neither United States citizens nor persons who owe permanent allegiance to the United States.

H.R.181 : To prohibit the use of Federal funds for any universal or mandatory mental health screening program.

H.R.776 : To provide that human life shall be deemed to exist from conception.

H.R.777 : To prohibit any Federal official from expending any Federal funds for any population control or population planning program or any family planning activity.

H.R.858 : To amend title II of the Social Security Act and the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to provide prospectively that wages earned, and self-employment income derived, by individuals who are not citizens or nationals of the United States shall not be credited for coverage under the old-age, survivors, and disability insurance program under such title, and to provide the President with authority to enter into agreements with other nations taking into account such limitation on crediting of wages and self-employment income.

H.R.1017 : To prohibit United States voluntary and assessed contributions to the United Nations if the United Nations imposes any tax or fee on any United States person or continues to develop or promote proposals for such a tax or fee.

H.R.1146 : To end membership of the United States in the United Nations.

H.R.1657 : To ensure financial regulations do not harm economic competitiveness, nor deprive Americans of due process of law, by repealing provisions of Federal law that hold corporate chief executive officers criminally liable for the content and quality of their companies' financial report, even when the chief executive officers had no intention to engage in criminal behavior, and had taken all reasonable steps to assure the accuracy of the statement.

H.R.1658 : To ensure that the courts interpret the Constitution in the manner that the Framers intended.

H.R.1703 : To restore the second amendment rights of all Americans.

H.AMDT.285 to H.R.2862 An amendment numbered 11 printed in the Congressional Record to prohibit use of funds in the bill to pay any United States contribution to the United Nations or any affiliated agency of the United Nations.

H.AMDT.366 to H.R.3010 An amendment numbered 11 printed in the Congressional Record to prohibit use of funds in the bill to create or implement any universal mental health screening program.

Here's some "highlights" of the previous session:

H.CON.RES.46 : Expressing the sense of Congress that all United States Armed Forces should be withdrawn from South Korea and the United States should end its defense guarantee of South Korea.

H.CON.RES.255 : Expressing the sense of the Congress that the United States military should not become involved in the Liberian civil war, either alone or as part of a United Nations peacekeeping force.

H.R.938 : To prohibit Federal payments to any individual, business, institution, or organization that engages in human cloning.

H.R.1146 : To end membership of the United States in the United Nations.

H.R.1154 : To provide that the International Criminal Court is not valid with respect to the United States, and for other purposes.

H.R.1545 : To prohibit Federal officials from paying any Federal funds to any individual or entity that performs partial-birth abortions.

H.R.1546 : To provide that the inferior courts of the United States do not have jurisdiction to hear abortion-related cases.

H.R.1548 : To prohibit any Federal official from expending any Federal funds for any population control or population planning program or any family planning activity.

H.R.1891 : To amend the Clean Air Act to prohibit liability for the effects of emissions, and emission byproducts, resulting from or caused by an act of nature, and for other purposes.

H.R.2139 : To repeal the National Voter Registration Act of 1993.

H.R.2778 : To abolish the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System and the Federal reserve banks, to repeal the Federal Reserve Act, and for other purposes.

H.R.2780 : To sunset the Bretton Woods Agreements Act.

H.R.3071 : To prohibit the provision of Federal funds to the housing-related government-sponsored enterprises and to remove certain competitive advantages granted under law to such enterprises.

H.R.3125 : To protect the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution.

H.R.4004 : To amend the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act to establish a system independent of the Food and Drug Administration for the review of health claims, to define health claims, and for other purposes.

H.R.4118 : To ensure that the courts interpret the Constitution in the manner that the Framers intended.

H.AMDT.240 to H.R.1950 Amendment sought to prohibit funding for any United States contribution to the United Nations or any affiliated agency of the United Nations.

H.AMDT.287 to H.R.2799 Amendment sought to strike funds for the United Nations Educational, Scientific, and Cultural Organization.

H.AMDT.641 to H.R.4754 An amendment numbered 7 printed in the Congressional Record to prohibit the use of funds in the bill for the Census Bureau's American Community Survey.

[sellitman]

25. No...I am a friend of Barbara Boxer & John Conyers.

Paul is a CONSERVATIVE.

I don't support conservatives.

Come up with a better running mate for Dennis and win the Democratic Primary and then they would get my vote.

[genius]

28. Ron Paul and John Conyers have very similar voting records on most issues.

I like both. Boxer gives a lot more deference to Bush than either Paul or Conyers.

[welshTerrier2]

7. i would vote for a ticket that is 100% progressive ...

none of the choices you offered would be the choice i would make ...

in the scenario you defined, i would probably vote for the Green ticket ...

[genius]

8. Check out the voting records. They are extremely progressive

When every Democrat in California backed the funding for Yucca Mountain, these two fought that funding. Here is a link to the voting reocrds.

http://patrickhenrythinktank.org/house-score4.html

[ISUGRADIA]

62. I prefer project vote smart which shows that the ratings from

any legitimate interest groups clearly show that Ron Paul is a conservative libertarian.

[genius]

9. This is why the Democrats voted for war and USA-PATRIOT

We are the ones who don't have backbones. Look how many would support a Zell Miller over someone who will pull us out of war and out of the WTO.

[WildEyedLiberal]

12. RON PAUL IS NOT PROGRESSIVE

MY GOD. How blind are you?

Jesus.

[genius]

17. So opposing Bush, star wars, CAFTA,, the WTO and supporting environment

are not as progressive as DLCers, who love war, and the WTO and want to let Gonzales lock everyone up and vote for every anti-environmental bill they can get their hands on.

[noonwitch]

15. I will gladly vote for Hillary in the primary and the general election

If she runs. But then again, I'm a realist and I understand that candidates as far to the left as I am will never win the presidency. Then again, compared to some, I'm a centrist.

[1932]

16. I'm not confindent that the average Democrat can distinguish a DLC

candidate from one who isn't.

[Freddie Stubbs]

19. They certainly did last time

[genius]

21. Kerry won and conceeded. The Democrats are no longer a majority

and no one else will trust us with their votes again.

[Freddie Stubbs]

24. By how many votes did Kerry win?

:shrug:

[genius]

26. Where were you? The exit polls showed a landslide for Kerry.

The Ukranian election (which had an opposition leader with integrity) was overturned based on less criteria than was available to prove that Kerry won the 2004 election.

[Freddie Stubbs]

27. So you don't know how many he won by?

:shrug:

[genius]

31. So, are you saying you believe Bush won the 2004 election?

I'm sure you can look up a donation site for Diebold on google.

[AntiCoup2K4]

23. And that's part of the problem.

The people who buy what Ralph Nader said about "not a dime's difference between the two parties". Actually, that's TRUE when it comes to the DLC. And it's also true that the DLC had far too much influence in the 2000 and 2004 campaigns. It's up to the majority of us, who do NOT accept the DLC agenda, to inform the voters of our REAL values and that we are, by no means, the same as these neocon treasonous Busheep shitbag republicans.

Then maybe we could reach that 50% of the eligible voters who don't even bother anymore.

[1932]

29. I agree that the DLC got its candidate in 2000, but not in 2004.

Kerry, in my opinion, was motivated by a conviction in liberal principles and was not motivated, like, say, Joe LIeberaman, by a desire to help corporate America get wealthier at all costs.

I think if you reveiew all the insane things the DLC pushed since 2003, they've gotten very little of what they wanted from the party, and I think their influence will continue to wane.

However, I wont be surprised if I see a lot of Dems here and elsewhere touting pro-corporate candidates as anti-DLC before we get our nominee in 2008 (and I won't be surprise if they criticize the eventual nominee as being, inaccurately, pro-DLC).

[genius]

33. He promised he would fight to have every vote counted.

Then he gave Bush everything Bush wanted. If it weren't for Michael Badnarik and David Cobb (enither of which is a Democrat), we wouldn't have known the truth about Kerry's win.

[1932]

48. That's what I'm talking about. That doesn't make a candidate DLC.

It's one thing to allege that a guy gives up too easily because he doesn't connect with people's passions, and it's quite another to allege that he was intentionally tanking on behalf of corporate interests.

I fear that all this talk about the DLC will lead Democrats to support a candidate who is pro-corporate just because he was never a member of the DLC (and you can only be a member if you have held elected office, and there are certainly many politicians out there the DLC loves even though they've never taken the time to apply for their membership careds).

"DLC" is a convenient label that might obfuscate exactly what it means to be DLC.

I've seen people on DU call Obama a DLC'er even though he expressly refuted sharing their ideology during his campaign. I've seen DU'ers ingore the most blatant pro-corp positions of other Dems for god knows what reason (would it matter if Biden or Gore weren't currently members of the DLC?).

I so don't want a DLC candidate on the ticket in 2008, but I hope the discussion isn't about whether someone is a card-carrying member, but whether they're proposing DLC policies.

[Totally Committed]

18. These polls are senseless.

I love Kucinich, but I don't feel the same about Paul. And, besides, Kucinich IS a loyal Democrat. I doubt he'd run Third Party. (That's Nutball Nader's job anyway... :crazy: )

And, finally, Al from can go to hell. :grr:

I have got to stay out of these 2008 Poll threads or my head will explode! :nuke:

TC

[genius]

20. The trouble is the party might not be smart enough to nominate Dennis

Given the track record of our Party, we could lose 2008 to any Republican who runs. At least half of the Democrats I know won't vote Democrat in the next election unless Dennis is running. This is a possible way of pulling out of a guaranteed win for the Republicans.

[Totally Committed]

32. The problem is this Party is being torn apart...

You say this (and I believe you! We tend to associate with people who think as we do): "At least half of the Democrats I know won't vote Democrat in the next election unless Dennis is running. Well, almost every Democrat I know, and even a bunch of Republicans, Independents and Greens, say they won't vote Democratic next election if Wes Clark is not the nominee. (And you can believe me! My associations are as I said above as well)

But, all this 2008 DLC Hillary talk beating us over the head so early has led to a more splintered Party than I have ever seen before. This is a real problem. I don't think the answer is for Kucinich to run Third Party. I really don't.

I just don't know what the answer is, I just know the ic the DLC/Hillary would cool their jets a bit we might be able to heal some of the cracks in the Party.

TC

[karynnj]

34. The people you know are clearly not a representative sample

of the Democratic party or of liberals. I think there is NO candidate that would lose that many Democrats. I would bet that (in alphabetical order)Bayh, Biden, Clark, Clinton, Dean, Edwards, Kerry, and Warner would ALL do better against any Republican than Kuchinich would. In the primaries last year he rarely got above single digits anywhere.

So it is lunacy to think that Kuchinich is the only possible winner.

[Padme Amidala]

36. Most Party regulars won't vote for Hillary

Currently, only 50% in this democratic underground would definitely vote for Hillary in a general election. If she can't even get the votes of the vast majority of her party, she doesn't have a chance in a general election.

[Totally Committed]

59. You are making one error:

You think the DNC "leadership" actually cares what we here at DU or Kos or MyDD think, or that they have an accurate idea of what her chances are. If they decide it's Hillary, it'll be Hillary. They will find a way to influence those voters who do not pay attention until two weeks before it's time to vote in their state that her name recognition will beat the other guy, or that considering who her husband is, she's a "twofer", and we'll be in the crapper again.

They are that powerful, they are that uninterested in grassroots, and they are that stupid. Trust me.

TC

[HadItUpToHere]

37. I will NOT vote for/support any dlc candidate...

especially Hillary.

that being said- a Kucinich/Paul ticket would be a bad idea, as it could end up splitting the democratic vote.

[mmonk]

40. My vote is not to be taken

for granted. It will depend TOTALLY on the record and views of the nominee. I'm not like a democratic version of a republican voter where it's just party, no matter what the candidate stands for or will do.

[demzilla]

41. Not Ron Paul, but I'd vote for Kucinich and Ru Paul. NT

[LittleClarkie]

56. I'd have voted for John Paul

But he's gone now.

[demzilla]

58. And George and Ringo, 'cept George is gone, also. NT

[Raiden]

43. Now isn't the time to be picky

I'll oppose any DLCers in the primaries with all I've got, but I'll vote for the Democratic nominee whoever they are--we can't afford to be picky until we have a solid majority. As far as I'm concerned, a vote for anyone but a Democrat at this time is a vote for a Republican.

2006 will be the first election I'll be able to vote in, and I intend to vote strait ticket Dem.

[Brightmore]

44. Ron Paul is a libertarian

He believes in the abolition of income tax, most Cabinet departments, the Federal Reserve, supports the legalization of marijuana, and American withdrawal from the United Nations. He supports a non-interventionist foreign policy, favors defederalization of the healthcare system, opposes the death penalty, and is strongly opposed to a military draft.

He has been criticized at times for his voting record, being the only dissenting vote against giving Rosa Parks and Mother Theresa the Congressional Gold Medal of Honor.

Ron Paul

Not too progressive, if you ask me. I could never vote for him.

[LoZoccolo]

49. Oh but he passed the handful of litmus tests!

As long as he opposes all the things which make Kucinich different than say, Bill Clinton, then the rest don't even matter!

_{NOTE: This post is sarcastic.}

[LoZoccolo]

46. Of fucking course not.

Have you seen what's going on in Iraq lately? Hello? Nader? No difference? Hello?

What a stupid idea.

[LoZoccolo]

47. This also shows the folly of litmus tests...

...in that people who have no business getting "progressive" votes end up passing a narrow litmus test.

[mmonk]

50. I was wondering

what if a republican was closer to your views and the dem was close to bush's view. Vote for the dem or put an end to all this crap?

[LoZoccolo]

51. What if? What if?

Never happened yet. The whole idea that there's no difference is stupid, and anyone who thinks that is stupid and/or vain, even if they can give me two or three things which are the same. We have the Iraq War because of this idiotic bullshit.

[mmonk]

53. bush won't be running next time

[LoZoccolo]

55. I know. I hope they don't seize on the opportunity...

...given to them by the "further left" to put someone worse in office next time.

[Brightmore]

57. I would probably vote for the Republican

But Ron Paul is a right-wing wacko. Ever read Ayn Rand? That's the shit he believes in.

[kodi]

61. if Clinton gets the nomination, i vote Green. its that simple

i distrust that woman every bit as much as her husband. they are both rank opportunists who feed on the misery of the rest of us.

for those who think that the sun shines out her asshole, go to hell. that woman does not care about anybody but herself.

[Moderator]

64. Locking

Since Dennis is a die hard Democrat, what makes you think the rest of us aren't?

Third party politicing would be more welcome on someone else's bandwidth.

Thank you.