Has anyone here had any trouble with infiltrators at house parties?

[Albert Einstein]

Sunday, I attended a Moveon House Party where two of the guests seemed to be there just to discourage others from taking relevant action regarding the upcoming judicial appointment. One of them referred to Kerry as a left-wing radical. They went on to say that any attempt to get the attention of the press would make Democrats look like fringe radicals and that we should consider going along with the nominee as long as Bush speaks with the Democratic leaders (something he did the day after the House party). They also said Democrats look like extremists when they speak about the consequences of legislation and that we should avoid scaring anyone - even if we are telling the truth. These two people spoke as if the Republicans were moderates and the Democrats had a problem with extremism. The hostess did a great job of getting people to agree to take action, but I am certain the hostess could have gotten the people to agree to do a lot more if these two people hadn't been discouraging action. I am certain that the reason the two people came to the house party was to prevent effective action, rather than because of any opposition to Bush.

Has anyone else here experienced this sort of Republican infiltration at house parties?

[xxqqqzme]

1. never but then the rethugs R scared

so B careful. Cornered animals will bite.

[Vickers]

2. I experience it here all the time, so I'm sure house parties are fair game

But there are some liberals/progressives who are more....delicate than others.

:P

[Eloriel]

14. Heheh. Yeah, and a report like this certainly goes a long way to

cement some of the suspicions some DUers earn here, doesn't it?

[Vickers]

16. Bingo!

:spank:

[hobbit709]

3. I would have

asked them for their credentials and who at the party could vouch for them.

[Inland]

4. Throw them out, after taking contributions for beer. nt

[tubbacheez]

5. Not every person who has decided to join our side is necessarily

going to the constructive type.


Optimistically, I'd consider it a sign that we are reaching a larger and larger cross-section of America when duds start showing up at grassroots events.

Even if our party is kept at only 1% dud, that would still be a sizable number when our total strength is in the millions.

[genius]

6. I've experienced that too.

Perhaps the best thing to do is to ask, up front, who is ready to use all means necessary to fight the Bush administration. If anyone says "No," show them the door.

[kansasblue]

7. let them talk. and then do what needs to be done.

do you have that weak of convections that a different view keeps you from moving forward?

Just like the real world. Just do what needs to be done. Don't throw them out. Isn't that a little 'bush rallyish'?

[shance]

8. It's standard operating procedure. I used to work on a pro choice

organization and they always had someone lurking.

The good thing is like the one you mentioned they are pretty easy to spot. They are the "moderates" who don't want to come across like a "nutjob liberal". For the most part, they are the ones who are trying to discourage action rather than encourage it.

As for the anti-choice brigades, there were actually paid individuals to picket the clinics 24/7.

They seems to have unlimited funds, and they use much of it to "market" and create doubt and division since most often the extremists don't have the truth on their side. What was also interesting was all of the picketers at this clinic were men. No women. I thought that was interesting.

[Constitution]

17. So, how do we tell fence-riders from infiltrators?

My guess is that they will push their point of view when they think they can convince people to hold back. If they don't think they have a shot, they'll probably be quiet and take notes on the plan of action.

[salin]

35. two things

one) the language used - the more flamboyant per describing how democrats might look (eg fringe, lefties, nutjobs) - the more likely infiltrators rather than fence-riders. Fence riders would probably use more toned down language per "not wanting to ostracize moderates...", "wait and see (how nominee is) and choose battles wisely..."

two) whether alternatives are offered - if the only alternative is to sit down and stay quiet... less likely to be fence-rider; if instead they suggest things like... writing letters that emphasize x theme rather than y theme... or suggest that q action might be more effective then r action.

Then again - you have the other type of infiltrator, as well. The type who pushes extreme actions in order to discredit the whole group.

[crispini]

33. Wow, THAT's a good point.

Look for footdragging moderates rather than nutjob types. Because we certainly have enough nutjob types in my neck of the woods, unfortunately.

[Lefty48197]

9. I WISH I could run into some undercover Republicans at a Democratic party

Can you say Pinata?

[atommom]

11. Trust me, there's no candy in those elephants.

:P

[Richard Steele]

13. But we can't REALLY be sure of that until we check EVERY LAST ONE! :)

[atommom]

18. Kind of like that story about the optimist who was given a stable

full of horseshit, and ran through it yelling, "I know there has to be a pony in here SOMEWHERE!" :D

[NuttyFluffers]

34. sometimes it's not the destination but the journey that's the goal...

and i'm sure if you use my modified correctional foam bats (soaked in water and left in a freezer) that you too would find the joy.

[atommom]

38. You are correct ... I'm sure I'd find enlightenment.

:D

[William Seger]

32. Good point

That could get rather, um, "messy."

[genius]

12. I like that idea.

[1932]

10. In Fences and Windows by Naomi Klein, one of the chapters describes a...

....good way to ID infiltrators.

[SweetLeftFoot]

15. Does it

involve a pond and a ducking stool?

[TankLV]

21. No - just a big rock, some rope and the pond.

Tie a big rock to them and throw them in a deep pond.

If they float, they're guilty.

If they drown, then they were probably innocent and are now happy in heaven.

[SweetLeftFoot]

25. Old school

I like the ducking stool myself. Classy like.

[wli]

22. please describe

Not all of us are going to go out and buy the book.

[1932]

23. If I tell, then interlopers will be prepared!

See if your library has the book.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

19. In some progressive gatherings I've seen agents provocateurs,

telling people that they shouldn't stay peaceful during demonstrations "if they feel like throwing stones." If the majority tries to make peaceful assembly the standard of behavior, the provocateur tries to call them part of "the authoritarian left."

At an anti-war demo in Portland, I saw some guys who were dressed quite similarly in khakis and white T-shirts try to persuade the crowd to tip over a press vehicle. Fortunately, the crowd didn't fall for it and instead tried to pull them away.

I am convinced that the dozen "anarchists" who made all the headlines smashing windows while 15,000 people marched peacefully on another street when the World Trade Organization met in Seattle were agents provocateurs. They succeeded in ruining the reputation of the anti-corporate trade demonstrators, which was their undoubted purpose.

[wli]

24. recording police brutality

I'm not exactly sure how, but it would probably be a good idea to videotape much more of what goes on. IIRC there were a lot of claims that were thrown out on the basis of testimony claiming provocation that didn't happen etc. The detention camp issues are a bit less tractable because of the use of restraints and confiscation of recording devices. Probably the best that can be done for the detention camps is trying to compel the police to videotape things themselves, which is, of course, fraught with other perils (e.g. editing, tapes disappearing on purpose, etc.).

I've got some vague ideas about how to get enough evidence for the FBI to do something.

Posting people with videocameras on rooftops, in upper-story windows, or in helicopters above (ideal, but highly unlikely) would help correctly assess what's going on, and possibly identify agents provocateurs so they can be sued and/or prosecuted. At least double coverage is necessary, one to record the police brutality, and the second to zoom in on the provocateurs. It would probably also make sense to get photos and fingerprints of everyone legitimately participating in advance, so if they're provocateurs that infiltrated the group, still images of their faces can then be matched with lower-quality pictures from video recordings, and the fingerprints kept alongside the photos matched with fingerprint databases by the FBI. Last, clear markings to designate the proper position within a formation (e.g. letter and number such as B3, F7, etc.) should make provocateurs infiltrating on-site readily identifiable. t-shirts with the coordinates printed in very large letters would probably do, though that would interfere with decorative clothing and fashion choices; it's not clear how to avoid legibility at a distance interfering with such. With those arranged, basically anyone out of formation or lacking position markings can be identified as a provocateur or otherwise as unassociated with the group.

Anyway, if the provocation and brutality are both documented, then there's something to show the FBI. Unfortunately, I suspect my ideas require far too much organization, preparation, regimentation, and money to implement. Getting coverage of 10000 people, much less a million, in a manner anything like this sounds very hard, and getting enough videocameras on rooftops, in upper-story windows, and/or in helicopters to cover anything remotely adequate harder still.

I have no idea how to record provocateurs in unrelated areas serving as pretexts for police brutality. It's even less feasible to get a camcorder on every rooftop in the city than all that. It would be helpful if the MSM weren't all paid-off corporate shills so there would be footage to vindicate those who are injured, crippled, and disfigured (if not killed) by this shameless propaganda and intimidation tactic.

One thing I can't speak to is what laws are getting broken by the agent provocateur scheme. There's clearly some kind of racketeering or conspiracy (as a legal term) to commit something going on. In any event, getting the provocateurs identified and compelled to testify about who paid them in a grand jury would do a lot toward addressing the ongoing rampant corruption in the government.

[Mythsaje]

37. Now this is a good idea...

For safety's sake as well as for posterity. The MORE video we're able to capture at gatherings like this, the better it is for everyone from the protesters to passers-by, to even the cops. It would also show a commitment to help restrain and/or punish those who incite and perform violent acts at a nominally peaceful gathering.

This idea needs more exposure. I'd even suggest starting a new thread about it.

[omega minimo]

20. A man and a woman carrying a guitar case?

Maybe Bushco. has enlisted the Moonies
:scared:

btw re: frurkers
There is a basic profile for them on DU which we see over and over-- a template that is easy to spot. Must help them spot each other. Unfortunately, they get a rise with simpleton posts. Well-meaning DUers, look before you leap?

:kick:

[snot]

26. Where the heck do they get these drones . . .

. . . did you see the guest on the Daily Show tonite, a Rolling Stone reporter who got a job working for the 2004 Bush campaign in Atlanta, mentioned it was easy because they were having trouble filling the job . . .

[Stand and Fight]

27. Didn't like that guy at all...

He was a punk. The fact that he actually worked for the Bush campaign was all I had to hear.

[atommom]

39. He knew better than to say so, but I think he's still a Repub at heart.

How else could he have "no opinion" on Dean? Come on....

[Stand and Fight]

43. Of course he's a Republican!

Who the hell runs around in a guerilla suit and expects to be taken seriously? John Kerry could have had his ass hauled off for that act and he should have. That little piss-ant needs to have his ass in Iraq along with the rest of the Republican scum who support the idiot-in-chief but refuse to sign up, atommom.

[intheflow]

28. Not at a house party, but at school.

We a lunch forum every week on social justice topics. It was open to the public, and we started getting a heckler. He was a serious disruptor who picked fights with our speakers (calling one Veteran for Peace a "lousy soldier and father," for example). Of course he wasn't outright mean or rude most of the time, but he made his point that he thought our forum topics were stupid. We finally had to limit discussion to one question for the speaker per participant. When he realized he wouldn't be allowed to dominate the discussion, he stopped coming.

You may want to have a moderator at your house party, someone who watches the flow of the conversation, and controls participation making sure all participate more or less equally in the discussion. An easy way to shut up disruptors is to encourage people who don't readily speak up to talk--this gets a fuller discourse and also less time for the disruptors to fill.

Good luck. I can't imagine anyone sincerely interested in change would suggest no action at action planning meetings. :crazy:

[Swamp Rat]

29. Got a mic, bull horn? ... point out the troglodytes to everyone!

Then, tell them to get the FUCK OUT NOW!

Like Karl Rove said, when THEY come on my turf, THEY are "fair game!"

[BrightKnight]

30. This kind of thing is common in my experience.

I try to educate them a little and work around them. I guess it would be possible to bounce them. I have not seen that happen yet.

Perhaps a tightly structured event would be the answer. The host could hand out a two minute timer. The guest would only be permitted speak to the group when called upon by the host.

[rman]

31. Is it hard to imagine,

that they do the same thing on a larger scale?

[murielm99]

36. If the host of the house party has these problems continually,

he or she should check into the people coming. A host has the right to ask anyone to leave his private residence. People have to sign up for MoveOn meetings.

A check of county voting records might show how they voted. Asking someone known to the group to vouch for any strangers might help, too.

Last summer, we had a few repukes attending our county Democratic meetings. They are open to the public, though. All they did was take down numbers and names of the people signing in, and take notes on what was discussed. If any of them had spoken up, our group would have been vocal enough to shut them up in a hurry. We knew they were there, and that was about it.

[2Design]

40. during the campaign debates - a group purposely

set themselves up at a table right in the middle of the dems - the meeting place was a restaurant and it was advertised for the dems - they did not eat or buy anything - so they did not help restaurant

they would cheer for * and boo for kerry - they were your typical rw repubs - just annoying

[Ian David]

41. No, but I've had my share of no-shows

But to be fair, I may have acted to sabotage some of THEIR events.

May have.

[Helga Scow Stern]

42. Infiltration is an old trick of theirs....

I have seen it here on DU, my brother told me it happened at environmental meetings he used to attend across the state, and I saw it once at a UCLA meeting held by the student health center about abortion options. There were these two men in the audience who were clearly there to convince scared students not to have abortions.

It was funny, because the nurse giving the talk said that some of the most conflicted students were those seeking abortions because their religious background disapproved of premarital sex. Apparently, more from this group than any other came for counseling before they received abortions.

Republican infiltration and intimidation is an old trick, probably pioneered and perfected in the KKK days.