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Ok, DU, I'm convinced now that Universal Health Care is a winning issue

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Sir Jeffrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 11:40 AM
Original message
Ok, DU, I'm convinced now that Universal Health Care is a winning issue
I just got back my last research paper for undergrad. My thesis was that the US should move to adopt universal health care, either the British, Canadian, or German model. I was proud of the work I did, but I came down pretty harsh on both political parties for failing to propose a workable fix to the system (except for Gore, of course). I figured this would be a problem since my prof is a conservative christian who strikes me as a ** worshipper.

Well, I get my paper back with a 95% on it and the following comment:

"Good arguments. How would/could you convince our politicians?"

Not to get too detailed about the substance of the paper, but I basically point out how both candidates in the last election made no real proposals to fundamentally change the system. ** talked about HSAs, which mean shit to someone who can't pay for their health care. Kerry's proposal would require a massive tax increase with no effective method of controlling skyrocketing costs. Don't flame me, Kerry partisans, that was his proposal. He could have proposed conversion to a National Health Service, or Single Payer, but he didn't.

So long as insurance companies stay the the way they are, prices will forever be artificially inflated for services. Clinton's mandate system will not pass precisely because of this fact.

Either the govt needs to become the sole insurer (which grants them the right to control prices) or we need to switch to a NHS-type system. This is a winning issue.


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ewagner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
1. I agree
We need a comprehensive plan and, I'm afraid, we'll have to find a way to meld insurance companies into the mix only because it's a hughe, powerful industry and that will fight to preserve itself so fiercely that it can destroy any plan proposed without it.
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Nite Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. It sure will be a fight
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3644220

But we need for it to happen. I think it can be done but we have to get the dems on board and have them cut their dependence on their donations from the industry. The longer we wait the harder it gets.
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
2. Gephardt had a single payer plan.
Edited on Thu May-12-05 11:46 AM by Vash the Stampede
Even found a way to pay for it (rolling back part of the Bush tax cut). No one gave a damn - not even DU.
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Sir Jeffrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
16. Gephardt's plan appears to be employment based...
That is more like Social Insurance in Germany. Coverage would not be universal in that sense.

I haven't spent much time on Gephardt's proposal, so I might be off a bit. But from what I've seen briefly, it looks like SI.

Our system looks more like Germany's than the British variations precisely because of our insurance structure. I just don't see how we could control costs in a system with employer mandates short of price controls. As I said, insurance keeps prices artificially inflated. Combining employer mandates and relying upon some federal agency to set and monitor prices would be outrageously expensive and ineffective IMO.

But kudos to Gep for proposing something.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-05 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #2
47. Well, geez, vash--he's a MODERATE.
Can't have any of that here on DU, ya know.

I'm pretty far left, IMHO, but I know which side of the bread has the butter.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
3. We're trying here in Maine, but there's been trouble getting it
off the ground.

You can read our newspapers on line to see what's been going on, if that will help you see what does and doesn't seem to work.
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Sir Jeffrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. The problem with a "state-only" plan...
Edited on Thu May-12-05 12:42 PM by Sir Jeffrey
There is still no effective way to control prices nationally. Suppose that Maine did adopt some sort of UHC, then you'd have to find a way to pay for it in a national market that is still artificially inflated. This would require a massive tax increase, which would doom any chance of us getting something nationwide. Can you picture this argument during the 2008 debates (edit: I misspelled debate because I'm dumb)?

"For an example of how UHC won't work, all we need to do is look to Maine/Tennessee/whomever and you'll find skyrocketing costs, heavy taxes, and budget deficits as afr as the eye can see.

For this to work, it has to be done nationally.

IMO of course :)
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
5. I think absolutely the first steps are
1. regulate pharmaceutical pricing
2. regulate labwork pricing
3. regulate premium pricing, i.e., regulate how risk groups are formulated for purposes of building a premium schedule.
4. formulate realistic "reasonable and customary" standards

lawsuits are a straw man argument and really account for less than 2% of industry "medical costs" overall. Regulating lawsuits is actually harmful, considering the exploding Ford Pinto example.

Once you have those costs under control you can still pay your doctors and medical staff very well.

Big Pharma and HMO's have been raping us for years; I don't care if they get hurt by regulation. Using the free market argument, they will have to adjust to regulatory pressures if they wish to be profitable, rather than having the consumer adjust to pricing pressures.

just my two pennies -
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trof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
6. Can you confirm or deny this argument?
Emergency Room medical care is the most expensive health care delivery method we have. For most people with no medical insurance, this is where they get their care. They usually wait until their illness or injury has progressed to far worse (and more expensive to treat) than if treated earlier. Good preventive care, coupled with treatment early in an existing condition, would be much cheaper in the long run.

True? False?
Too simplistic?
I'd like to hear your thoughts.
Thanks.
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Sir Jeffrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Absolutely true...
What's more: those with private insurance plans are charged at much higher rates because their ability to pay is considerably greater than those without insurance.

So they screw the poor on one hand, then they turn around and screw the middle classes on the other.

FWIW, we spend $4,887 per capita on health care. Canada spends $2,792. UK spends $1,992. I could go on. This extra money we spend should be going to, as you stated, preventative care and universal coverage. This would increase overall productivity, result in about half the bankruptcies, etc. etc. etc.
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trof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. Thank you.
That argument was put forth by two physician friends.
One works ER and the other is ob/gyn.
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kath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-05 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #11
36. Instead, the extra money goes to the goddam blood-sucking insurance
companies. Feckin' parasites who contribute nothing of value to the system, but just suck buckets of money out of it.
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Sir Jeffrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-05 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #36
45. I suppose that's a better way to put it :)
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #6
24. it's true
but (see earlier post) there are tremendous costs that have to be regulated first in the industries that support medicine: pharma, insurance / reimbursement, risk/premium valuation, etc.

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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-05 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #24
48. Pharmaceutical prices will hit people where they live.
Even with insurance, my pharma costs are inane (insulin dependent diabetes, heart problem, periom, anemia).

I'm healthy, but there are millions in my situation who can't survive without meds.

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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-05 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #48
54. absolutely -
a politician who supports people over pharma is probably going to be gunned down in the street though by the pharma lobby, but it would absolutely get the senior vote.

Regulating pharmaceutical pricing so that it is cheaper to get your scrips here than in Canada, and then regulating insurance premiums to reflect the change in pharamaceutical pricing so that more people could afford health insurance in the interim before universal healthcare would win the election in a landslide.

All it takes is a real leader to take real, principled stands. . .
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Sir Jeffrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-05 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. We got any on our side?
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-05 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. we do but the DNC likes to pick "safe" centrist candidates
for us. Any guy who is dull and boring and perfect is not typically the kind of guy who knows how to knock some dick in the dirt in a political fight.

As long as we keep getting herded into voting for non-populist candidates, we're going to continue to lose against the evil empire's picks. We need someone who can appeal to real hope with a real roadmap, not to fear like the republicans do, because the other side has got fear locked down as a political weapon.

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rurallib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
7. Yes - yes - yes
What is more important to a nation than it's citizens working up to their capabilities? And what can be more important in doing this than access top health care? It's a no brainer. And with Corps saying they can no longer afford health care it is economically necessary.
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NYC2099 Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
8. Its definatly doable.
Just don't include Hillary. We could have had it in 1993. But everything fell apart. Too many lawyers and not enough doctors. (my opinion)

If we do it the right way with the right people. We can occupy the white house for the next 20 years without even trying!!! (and both houses as well!!)
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kevsand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #8
22. "Too many lawyers and not enough doctors."
LOL! That's exactly right. And all behind closed doors. That health care task force looked a lot like what Cheney pulled on energy...
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EC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
9. Even insurance companies should be getting behind
a national healthcare system, since they are losing more money than they are gaining on health insurance plans...their main money makers are life insurance plans....

I'm in insurance and they tell us not to push health, to push life plans....

Even my Republican boss is for a national healthcare system, as is businesses that want good employees but can't afford the benefits that attract the better qualifications...
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Sir Jeffrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. I always wondered why small businesses never got behind this idea...
What you're saying is true. Employers wouldn't have to carry health plans under single payer or NHS, so any idea why they fight it tooth and nail?

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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. IMO they fear being taxed to pay for it. n/t
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EC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. I think they are beginning to see the light
Many are getting tired of the swinging door of employees, and are angry about not being able to retain good employees because they are in search for benefits...I know I hear it everyday, that something has to break, and they KNOW the insurers are not going to lower premiums or INCREASE benefits of the policies, so the only thing that can happen is single payer...These same business owners have families they are getting worried about covering too, so now that it is becoming self-serving, they are bending. The old excuses no longer apply, such as too expensive, or can't have your own doctor or wait too long for care...since this IS the way healthcare is done now under the private system...They broke their own backs...
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #12
27. They always heard 'healthcare' and visualized that
Edited on Thu May-12-05 09:47 PM by kenny blankenship
flowchart from the Republican assault on Clinton's healthcare proposal.
If we had a Party worth the name, our plan and message would make it clear that Universal Healthcare would mean the END of employee insurance paperwork for the employers.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
13. Yes! We need to support Dems with the courage to pursue it!
This can be done... Democrats can win respect if they'll fight for their own agenda - the people's agenda.
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mdhunter Donating Member (373 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
15. The last election was amazing...
It was the first in my memory where the question of whether healthcare should be a right of U.S. citizens or not wasn't even mentioned. Not once, by either side. The legacy of Hillary lives on.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #15
29. No, Kerry repeatedly said that healthcare should be a right for all
But somehow Bush just said "Terra and Queers" and that made things all better.
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Sir Jeffrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-05 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #29
46. Don't forget "flip-flopper" n/t
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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
18. I have been advocating for a
national health care system that begins by consolidating all the health programs that currently exist under the government now: Medicare, Medicaid, Indian Health Services, Veterans Health Programs, CHAMPUS - active duty military health care, Government employee programs, and Congressional/Presidential health coverage. If they took the best existing coverage and consolidated them under one administration it would be one giant step toward universal coverage. They could also allow large business to buy into the program and subsidize small businesses. That would leave only a small portion of the citizens uninsured. The insurance industry could be included as the administrating agency in the private sector. It would also cut out the layered administration of government - state and county government - which would also save money.

The savings for cutting down on administrative costs to one program would help pay for the new enrollees. I do not know what this would cost overall but if it is not means tested that alone would save money. The difference between the administrative costs for means tested social services programs and social security prove this. Then if we still need to control cost the saving would be huge.
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Sir Jeffrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Intriguing proposal...
Has any politician proposed this that you know of? Or has anyone done a cost-benefit on this to see how much consolidation would cost?

IMO I think this would be pricy, but I honestly don't know until I see the nuts and bolts. This is definitely better than what we have now, for sure though.

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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. I don't think anyone has picked up on it. It would at
least be worth looking at.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
20. I think so too
especially now with a lot of Americans who are without health care. Isn't it 44-45 million without health care? I think it could be a win-win for us if they talk about this and actually do it. I know Hillary has been trying since Clinton's years to get people health care but for whatever reason hasn't worked for her. :( More people are losing jobs and thus losing health care. We need SOMETHING now days.
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Sir Jeffrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Hillary care is not a good idea...
She wanted to mandate (read "force") private businesses to cover all of their employees. If a business couldn't pay for it, like a small mom and pop store, then the government would have to subsidize the coverage. That would be expensive, and would require a massive tax increase. Plus, there would be no effective way to control the skyrocketing costs of healthcare under her plan, since private insurance companies would still be able to artificially drive up prices.

Hillary care would have been grossly ineffective and prohibitively expensive. It basically would have socialized coverage with artifically inflated prices. That is why it hasn't passed.

What sucks is that Gore won in 2000, and he ran on single payer, which is a damn good idea.

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Phoebe Loosinhouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Even though I wanted Hillary's plan - she made mistakes
We had the biggest impetus in our history to work on health care for Americans, and Clinton really blew it. He was the man, he was in the right place an time. And then he totally blew the opportunity that history handed him - because he put his WIFE in charge of it. I was and am a true-blue Democrat, but I was blown away by the hubris of it - who elected her?! Imagine if George Bush today put Laura Bush is charge of healthcare - would you be pissed?? And then, they did pretty much what we complain about Cheyney doing with the energy hearings - they tried to keep it private and "inside baseball" . And they (and we) got our clocks cleaned. (Like Cheyney should have) Anyway, I have had a longstanding grudge with the Clinton administration for wasting the time, energy and opportunity that they had at a particular moment to do the right thing for the American people. I never really got over this.
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Sir Jeffrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. I'm afraid to say this on the DU board...
But I have never been a big fan of Clinton, Clinton policy, Clinton scandals, Mrs. Clinton, or the way they played the game.

I agree with you on Clinton's screw up on health care, but I really think you can draw a straight line from a lot of the crap Clinton did to where we are today.

Examples?

Clinton "triangulated" himself out of one party government. What if he spent time building his party instead of stabbing them in the back? Imagine if Bush "triangulated" on Tom DeLay's punk ass, where would they be in 2006?

If Clinton kept his pants zipped, or if he had the decency to step aside and give Gore the reins, Gore would have won in a landslide in 2000. And I think we wouldn't have this stupid "values" shit to deal with for the next twenty years.

I could go on, but I don't want to get flamed here.

And yes, I find it hard to criticize Cheney's handling of the energy task force when Mrs. Clinton was just as secretive in her dealings.
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reformedrepub Donating Member (956 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Its funny
Why do the Democrats in congress fail to mention to the American public, that all these Republican politicians get government healthcare, and they arent complaining about it! I work for NY state and get great healthcare through my job. Its amazing that this is never brought up on talk shows, press conferences etc...
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Kerry talked about it regularly during the election
He said that Senators and Congressmen vote to give themselves great healthcare. They should vote to give the same healthcare to the American people.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. You obviously haven't been on DU for very long
You are very much amongst company who share your sentiment about Clinton.

On that note, I'm going to agree with you and disagree with you. I was never a big fan of Clinton policy, Clinton's wife, or the DLC, but I don't think that Monica-gate hurt us politically.

The whole values thing had been in the works since Raygun came to power. Way before Monica, were the GOP declaring themselves morally superior to the Democrats. One of the good things that Clinton actually did do, was in the 1992 election he totally called them on their bullshit. In his acceptance speech, he said "I'm sick and tired of politicians in Washington talking about 'family values'. Our families have values, our government doesn't."

Also, on the day of his impeachment, Clinton had a 78% approval rating. Monica hurt us a little bit, but the impeachment nonsense hurt the GOP MUCH more. The GOP bit off more than they could chew by messing with a popular president that the country generally supported. Had they nominated a Senator or a Congressman for 2000, Gore probably would've won by accusing him of engaging in a radical coup d'etat against the Clinton administration.

But I think that Gore's "loss" in 2000 was his own damn fault. He lost the debates to chimp and there is absolutely NO excuse for that. Had Gore won the debates, that alone would've been enough to tip the balance in the other direction. Kathleen Harris and Ralph Nader were certainly factors but they shouldn't have been. Gore should've won his home state, bottom line.
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Sir Jeffrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-05 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #31
44. I think there a several ways to look at impeachment's effects...
First, the GOP ran to the right in 2000 and 2004. Look what that got them: single party govt, an energized religious right, righteous religious crusades against them eeevil muslims, tax cuts (as Jesus would have wanted) etc...

Then, all of a sudden, the nutsacks in the South decide that they don't want any more sex scandals, so they vote for the good ol boy **. You're right: Gore should have won TN and maybe AR. But if you look only a job approval ratings for Clinton, you're neglecting the personal ratings for Clinton. That did have a negative effect on Gore.

But I agree with you: Gore really dug himself a hole in the debates. He still could have won it, but my point was that CLinton's shenanigans really screwed us up and is still driving this psychotic religious bullshit that considers a BJ worse than lying about WMDs. Damn we're a nation of idiots, aren't we? :(
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-05 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #28
52. The courts forced Hillary to release all task force documents...
...through the federal 'sunshine' laws. These laws state that if ANY private citizen is part of the task force then the records become public property.

Cheney had private citizens on his task force and it's still a secret because they were able to find a judge 'friendly' to his cause.

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conflictgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
33. There has to be some new way of talking about the issue
My lame disclaimer is that I don't know how it would be done.

My mom has become a pretty diehard liberal in recent years after decades of political apathy (go, Mom!), but I recently had a conversation with her about the need for a national health care system and she said that she's not so sure she likes the idea. I could give her the arguments for why we needed one, like the costs of health care spiraling out of control, about how employers are feeling that those increased costs mean they can't fully insure their employees, high premiums, etc. She agreed with all that, but couldn't get behind the idea that national health care would fix the problem.

What arguments can I use for why it would work? Pointing to the fact that most other industrialized nations have such a system didn't work, since apparently the message has gotten through that "those other countries get inferior care". I know she's not the only one with that attitude.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-05 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. Try telling her that health care is infrastructure
Effectively convincing people who haven't spent much time thinking about health care policy requires countering the blather that the likes of Harry and Louise have been using to make people in the US afraid that however bad the current situation is, change is too scary, government is bad and the market is good, no matter what problem you are addressing. We need to explain why the market has clearly failed to deliver health care, even though markets are obviously successful in other areas. Anyone who bought a computer ten years ago and has upgraded recently (and who almost certainly doesn't spend any time on being a health care policy wonk) will naturally tend to think that markets really ought to have the same success with health care.

However, the markets for health care and the market for computers are pretty different. If you ask free market true believers what governments should be doing, they will often say something like "Roads and police and firefighting are legitimate government occupations because that is infrastructure." What we need to do is to present a good case that health care is infrastructure too. Almost no one will argue that government should have no role in creating and maintaining infrastructure, other than a few Libertarian hard cases whose arguments are ignored by average citizens anyway. Health insurance paid for by individuals is extremely expensive, and people who pay it commonly feel ripped off because after they pay, they never see a penny of it. But if health care is infrastructure, it is analogous to police and fire protection. These services are also expensive, but do people feel that if their houses don't burn down and they don't get assaulted or robbed, the property taxes paying for these services are a rip-off? Should the costs of those services be paid only by the people who immediately benefit from them? Obviously not.

"Health care is a right" is a solid ethical stance, based on the value that we should all care for each other and include everyone, and we should certainly continue to use the expression. However, it is similar to saying “Transportation is a right,” in that people inevitably are going to ask us what we mean by that. Neither assertion will tell us how we should allocate transportation dollars or health care dollars. We have to effectively counter the next step in the reasoning, where people inevitably begin to think of endlessly inflating entitlements that will drive the country into bankruptcy and still not satisfy everyone. To add to rights language the statement that health care is infrastructure not only directly and inevitably implies that health care is a right, but it gets people thinking about the issue in the most productive manner, namely as active citizens responsible for helping to determine public policy instead of as merely passive consumers.

The reality is that health care providers and firefighters are very similar in an economic sense. Computer makers want to sell more computers, and people always want more memory, more bandwidth and more speed, but people would rather not get sick and rather not have their houses burn, but want effective help fast should those things happen. Imagine a city with three or four fire departments, paid for by dozens of different employer insurance schemes plus a few subsidized plans for the poor which a lot of low income people earn too much money to qualify for. A real mess, right? The firefighting equipment has to be duplicated several times, and the private insurance is always shifting around with employment patterns. ("Whaddya mean you won't send a truck out? My employer turned in the new insurance paperwork last week!" "I'm sorry sir, but you must still be with Company X. We don't have you in our records.") And you'd also have a bunch of sorryass parasites sitting around trying to calculate which census tracts are likely to have the most fires, so they can stick their unlucky inhabitants with higher fees. Also each company would adjust prices dramatically upward to include profits as well.

Since no city in real life is actually stupid enough to have several different fire departments, there is no way of comparing that hypothetical situation with the current state of affairs in the provision of health care. But this was not always the case. There used to be private fire departments, and markers designating fire protection eligibility can still be found in antique shops. If your neighbor's house caught fire from the cinders of your fire, your personal firefighting service would just let the other house burn. If there was a dispute about coverage, competing services would often spray more water on each other than on the fire. (Before the Revolutionary War, that well-known commie rat bastard Benjamin Franklin put a stop to this idiocy with America's first public fire department in Philadelphia.)

We do know what happens to health care prices in towns with more than one hospital compared to towns of similar size with only one hospital—namely that the more hospitals, the more expensive health care is. And it's perfectly obvious why—if you think about the proper economic analogy, namely that of the fire department. And it's exactly the opposite of what happens with restaurants, barbers and computer manufacturers—more of those means better and cheaper products and services. Since firefighting is paid for as a public investment, they'll go to a house of $100,000 assessed valuation just as rapidly as one with a million dollar valuation, even though the property taxes are higher in the latter case. People in wealthy areas may have some overall service advantages, but the difference is trivial compared to the difference between people with and without health insurance.

Competition actually degrades performance directly as well. The single most important factor in determining your chances of surviving a complex operation is the number of those operations previously performed in that hospital. Divide the number of operations by the number of similar facilities in town, and you have calculated the relative incompetence factor. The same goes for firefighters—they keep their skills up by practicing on buildings slated for demolition that have been set on fire, or on fire towers which have tight restrictions as to where they can be located. Therefore there are limited numbers of these, and dividing them up among competing departments would mean that everyone would have lower skill levels. Compare this with computers, where sales and product improvement efforts mean more computers are made and sold. Somehow you just can't sell people on the virtues of having more heart attacks and house fires, so more competition means less real-life practice for everyone.

In one respect, public payment for health insurance is more like paying for roads than firefighters. Just as road building is paid for by the public but almost always contracted out to private outfits, medical providers would continue to be private operators even though publicly financed. Road maintenance is done by both public and private employees-how you decide between the two options is by putting the matter up to public debate and arguing about it. (This is called "activism" these days, although it used to be just plain old "citizenship.")

That firefighting is a public business leads to putting arguments of how to pay for it in the public venue. Service providers will always want to do less work for more money, and service recipients want more service for less money. No conceivable social arrangement can alter that basic fact of life. What happens is that unions and professional organizations argue about the solutions in public, bond issues and tax rates are proposed, and everybody comes to a compromise arrangement. And there is no reason to think that the same process won't work with health care providers. You can't cover everything and pay everyone what s/he thinks s/he deserves, so you put all the proposals on the public table and come up with a compromise.

And this segues into other public policy areas as well. In the case of firefighting, there are building codes and enforcement to argue about, fire safety and extinguisher training, smoke alarm requirements, etc. In the case of health, there is urban design (making walking and biking easier, for instance), health education and awareness, arguing about how to evaluate various technologies for proven results, etc. By comparison, making matters of computer design subject to this kind of public dispute would be unbelievably stupid.

And finally there is the question of how do we afford universal health care. Establishment opinion says that it is outrageously expensive compared to the current patchwork system. Of course they fail to mention that we would no longer have private insurance expenses, that out of pocket expenses would be dramatically reduced, and that we would continue to have the government funding that we now have. The fact is that we are already paying for universal health care—we just aren't getting it. Suppose your electric bill is $400 and you don't have that much. And then suppose that you check your back yard and find out that someone is tapping into the line between the power provider and your house, siphoning off as much as they can get by with stealing. All of a sudden the fact that you don't have $400 isn't your main problem any more.

Health care plans proposing incremental reform are more expensive than universal health care, because they all assume that we continue to spend what we are already spending, but add much more to that total in order to further subsidize private insurance companies, who would continue to drain off funds in the pipeline flowing from the public to health care providers. For those who like equations, those plans would cost out as

Total proposed health care spending = current spending + incremental proposal extra expenses - x, where x is whatever unknown amount of savings would be produced by the plan. (Extending preventive care, no matter how incrementally, can be expected to produce some saving.)

Universal single payer health care = current spending only - x.

So remember boys and girls—HEALTH CARE IS INFRASTRUCTURE!

A note on cost control—an analogy is the problem of controlling the movements of a herd of cattle. You can do the sensible thing and build a fence around them, allowing them to move freely within the confines, or you can hire a large crew of cowboys with sets of reins controlling each cow individually. The former is what Canadians do with global budgeting, and the latter is what HMOs and insurance companies do in the US. It's obvious which system gives providers and patients the most choice.

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Sir Jeffrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-05 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #35
43. What you said works too lol n/t
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Sir Jeffrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-05 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #33
42. Personalize the issue...
Most of the fear that arises out of this come from two general areas:

1. Costs (read: taxes)

2. The "I don't want a trip to the hospital to be like a trip to the DMV".

Both arguments are very simple to overcome if you approach it the right way.

First determine whether or not you can win the argument. Ask this simple question: "In an ideal world, would it be proper for govt to provide universal health care for its citizens? " I mean, no since arguing with a heartless bastard right :)

Then, proceed to undo the work that x years of corporate propaganda has done on them. The cost argument can easily be destroyed: we spend about twice what the UK and Canada spends per person on health care, yet they cover everyone. If they ask where the extra money goes, tell them it goes into the pockets of insurance executives and lavish hospital remodeling.

SO if we got rid of insurance companies (you should see a smile on their face at this point) and controlled the price of prescription drugs, we could do this easily without increasing taxes. Then the hospitals would have to deliver care, not waterfalls in the lobby.

If they have trouble believing this, tell them to look up any *scholarly* research on the issue over the last fifteen years. Don't rely on those tv news morons for information. They're dummies.

The other is the fear of "waitlists", "waiting in line for hours for care", "health care rationing", etc. These words signify that they have bought the right wing version of the argument. This is easy to destroy too, probably easier if they have ever had to wait for hours for service or if they have ever had to drive x hours to get surgery or to see a specialist.

Your point should be this: there already are long waitlists. There already is health care rationing. We have other problems though, like bankruptcies caused by health costs. IN other countries, they don't look at health care as a major purchase. They look at it as a right.

The older they are, the more likely it is that they have their own story. If no story is there for them, try one of your own. Here is an example of what I use with classmates and family:

(True story)

We're on Medicaid first of all.

My daughter, a one year old, was running a 103 degree temp about three weeks ago. It was a Saturday night, so we ran her to the hospital. We got to see a nurse quickly, who took her temp and told us what we already knew (running a temp). The nurse told us to check her in and the doctor would give her tylenol and monitor her. Ummm...okay, so we checked her in. They told us it would be at least a four hour wait before we even see a doctor. I said, "screw that...I can give her tylenol at home" and walked out.

We doctored her at home and she was fine by Monday.

If they still aren't convinced, tell them that by any measureable standard, the US' record on health care is middle of the road on most issues.



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leftyclimber Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
34. A healthy work force is a more productive work force.
US citizen, lived in Canada from 1996-2003, so I've seen both sides of the health care fence. Preventative care makes a huuuge difference in the productivity of the work force, because things aren't allowed to get out of hand before they're treated. (At least from what I saw, and I was in the thick of Mike Harris's Ontario, where he'd make cuts, then issue press releases to American papers saying "Canada's health care system is in trouble." :eyes:) And other than fascists like Harris (and perhaps the Reform party ... coming from a two-party system I had a lot of trouble keeping things straight -- go ahead and laugh at me, Canadians), most of the people I knew in Canada who were active in the Conservative party believed that it was stressful enough to be seriously ill without having the financial stress of big bills on top of it.

From what I saw when I was in Canada, the people who were bitching about the inequity of single-payer health care seemed to think that their paper cut trumped the guy with the heart attack because their paycheck was bigger. I didn't see any prioritizing beyond what happens in the States ... you're sicker, you get in before the person who's less sick, just like here. The difference, of course, being that it had nothing to do with ability to pay, because everyone was equal in the eyes of the health care system. (And if you wanted to buck the system, you went to the States and paid cash.)

Now, from what I was able to gather while I was living there, plans varied from province to province. There were general standards, but each province administered their health program as they saw fit within those standards. I'd love it if a Canadian could clarify this, because I was too busy saying "wow" to the whole system to really pick up on its province-to-province intricacies.

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Al-CIAda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-05 01:03 AM
Response to Original message
37. I agree. Health care should be a top issue. The costs are going up
at a rate of about 20% per YEAR for the past 4 years.
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Sir Jeffrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-05 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #37
41. Yeah, and costs to employer plans went up about 60% during that time...
Wages are up only 12%.
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orleans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-05 01:16 AM
Response to Original message
38. i heard (on the radio today) that the corporations want it
because employees are just costing them too damn much money!

something about G.M. saying each car costs an extra $3,000 because of the pesky health care they have to cough up for their hired hands.

and the a.m. radio station was saying that if corporations want it (which they didn't once upon a hilary time) then of course this administration will give it to them--on a plate--with relish!
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Sir Jeffrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-05 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. I studied this point in a graduate class this semester...
In 1993, a lot of big businesses were behind CLinton's mandate plan since they already paid for health care...the idea was to have big business hurt small businesses by having the govt require them to pay for health care.

Needless to say, the small businesses lined up behind the Republicans and "conservative" democrats to kill the proposal (not to say it was a good proposal, but it died for that reason primarily, according to the research we looked at).

In my research paper (for another class...I'm really into this issue BTW) it seemed like every damned source I came across ridiculed our system, which is good since sooner or later the dummy republicans will even see the light (not the evil ones though). And I hope that what you are saying happens soon enough. Like Kucinich said last year, we spend the money on universal health care now. We just don't effectively deliver services.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-05 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #38
50. Yes and no. What the corpwhores are whining about is that they want to
drop the coverage they already provide. It's one of Bush's stealth issues--they KNOW that there's a move on to remove their tax-write off for providing it, so they echo the HFs line about costs to the consumers.

OTOH, many smaller corporations are quietly seeing the light. I read an article in the Nation a while ago that they are seeing that this is a benefit for all of them in the long run in terms of competiiveness and cost benefit.

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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-05 06:17 AM
Response to Original message
39. Paying for universal health care shouldn't be a major issue.
Of course taxes would go up, but you wouldn't be shelling out $12,000 or more a year for insurance premiums either. Prices could be controlled. The real losers might be the CEOs and their multimillion dollar annual salaries. Boo hoo.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-05 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #39
58. Exactly--we are already paying for universal health care--
--we just aren't getting it!
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-05 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
49. Start the marketing with people like me--with chronic health problems.
I have quality health coverage, and still this makes an impact on my standard of living.

Copays for doctor's visits, presecriptions, equipment cut into my discretionary spending by about 15-20% a month.

There are politically active groups for nearly every medical condition out there--for IDD, it's the Insulin-Free World Foundation.

Find them, sell them with a coordinated effort, get their people on board.

There is plenty of interest, lots of tiny little groups trying to make this happen. We can't fight big pharma and monster insurance with tiny little groups. We need to coordinate the effort now. Make a big emough impact that it will be an issue in '06.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-05 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
51. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Sir Jeffrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-05 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #51
53. Excellent link...
I wish I had the political influence/connections with the SBA and the NFIB. I'd give them that link.

They really put a crimp on Hillary Care. We need them on our side on this issue, not running those stupid Harry and Louise ads.
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mbee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-05 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
55. Funny that you mentioned HSAs because I know lots
of people who use them and they even give you a card now and you can use it at the pharmacy. People don't realize that if they get pre-tax savings on these plus on payments for their insurance (doesn't show up on your W-2 Form) they are in effect reducing the contributions to Social Security themselves. Employers push them because they save money in taxes. I don't hear anyone talking about this. I'm not against saving taxes, but this is reducing the amount going into Social Security/Medicare, etc. We need to start putting these tax savings in the bank or a IRA because we are going to get back less in SS benefits because of this.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-05 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #55
60. HSAs are a statement to the sick and the poor--
--namely FUCK OFF AND DIE ALREADY!! They enable healthier high earners to opt out of the risk pool with the expensively sick in it, and take their funds with them.
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Bemis Donating Member (89 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-05 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
59. There is a divergence coming...
On one hand you have several major companies now being overloaded with healthcare costs of retires. Other companies want to get out of the business of providing health care coverage.

Then you have the continually growing number of Americans without any health insurance.

Sooner than later these numbers will overwhelm the current system.

There will be no other choice.
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