Sorry, I can't empathize or talk to "the other side"

[Carolab]

They are dumb, bigoted, greedy, hateful and mean.

They hate me and people like me and they don't want to hear what I'm saying.

I've tried, really, I have. It's like talking to a vast wall of stupidity.

Any suggestions?

[AP]

1. George Bush love ya!

That's the kind of attitude they need from the left so that nobody to the right of center can be persuaded to think and vote sensibly.

[silvermachine]

42. Seems to work for the right....

...or have they been reaching out to progressives in order to win and we just haven't noticed it? They must be sooooo much more effective in reaching out to voters that would never vote for them anyway.:eyes:

[AP]

47. Bush made his biggest inroads with suburban white women.

That's a demographic that normally votes Democratic. So the Republicans have been reaching out to the other side for votes and doing so effectively.

How'd they do it? By having Bush insert "love" into as many sentences as possible, no matter how occassionally inappropriate ("ob-gyn's giving women their love").

They also did it by scaring the shit out of them, which was something they learned was effective in Chile during the Allende government -- propaganda targeted at women turned out to be really effective at peeling away normally left-voting people.

Well, Democrats don't using scare tactics. So what's left? How about not alienating people who identify themselves as conservatives with divisive language like in the OP? The Republicans do try to get people to the left of center to vote for them (against those voters' best interests) so lets try to get people to the right of center to vote in their best interests by reaching out to them with arguments why it's in their best interests to vote liberal?

[bitchkitty]

2. Yup - you don't have to talk to anyone stupid

if you don't want to. If you're anything like me when confronted with freeper logic, you probably want to walk away rather than alienate them further.

I agree with you, they're terminally stupid - but they vote. I'll leave it to the diplomats, and stay out of it! :)

[meganmonkey]

3. Don't be sorry

If that's what you really think of 'them', they probably appreciate you leaving them alone. I wouldn't want to talk to someone who thinks I am dumb and hateful.

:shrug:

[loveable liberal]

5. Read Bob Dole's editorial in the NYT's....

I used to have respect for the guy, now he's an apologist for the Reich wing. He's now a real 'party uber country' kinda guy now. These are the kinds of people we have to deal with ....

[meganmonkey]

9. Key phrase from your post: "people we have to deal with"

I agree with you - I understand. But I really think we DO have to be able to deal with these kinds of people. I have to deal with a lot of different kinds of people at my work, and it takes patience, but sometimes progress is made. And my boyfriend's family - wow - what a group of Limbaugh listeners! But they would do anything for me if I needed it, and vice versa. And sometimes we argue politics, but we don't take it personally, and once in a magic moon I make them see the light. So all the biting-my-tongue-till-it-bleeds so I don't lash out at them pays off. Because lashing out does no good, it never changes minds. Believe me, there are times when the thought goes through my head 'What the hell is wrong with them? Are they stupid? Ignorant? Uncaring?' but I think we need to make a conscious effort not to fight hatred with hatred, and not to fight judgment with judgment, because then WE can rise above the shit and sometimes the truth floats down and hits them on the head. We NEED things to change so I try hard not to get alienated and not to alienate others. IMHO :)

[loveable liberal]

41. being polite to people? biting my tongue?....

Having to explain why war is bad and why ethical conduct is good? The stupid dont get it unless it affects them, then they immediately put their hand out. Lemme guess, your inlaws are christians? Dont get me wrong, I'm not rippin you, but if stupid people revel in their stupidity, why not point it out to them as often as possible. It's not ok to pollute or kill or harm the next generation or stiff the previous generation. We have a crapload of baby boomers out there who dont like to share and cant see past thier own selfish needs. Screw them.

[Carolab]

13. It's only AFTER I tried talking to them that I thought so.

When you keep trying to explain the truth, give them the facts, and they shut it out and keep spewing the "talking points", including all the liberal-hate and gay-hate shit, what other conclusion can you reach than that they are dumb and hateful?

[meganmonkey]

18. Well, if you're referring to folks that you've spoken with personally

then you certainly can draw those conclusions. Your OP seemed a little more broad-brushed than that.

[SteppingRazor]

4. Depends who you're talking about

A lot of traditional conservatives are doing a lot of soul searching right now because their views of fiscal responsibility and avoidance of foreign entanglments have been thrown out the window (Pat Buchanan is a perfect example). I'd encourage a lot of friendly debate with people like this.

But, yeah, anyone who supports this administration 100% is a total tool. Don't bother giving yourself the high blood pressure. :)

[borg5575]

36. They all aren't "dumb."

Actually, I wish they all were dumb because then they'd be easier to deal with, but they're not.

If they were that dumb, how could they have possibly managed to take over the entire government? No, they are not stupid, but they are evil. And to me that's worse. There have been many instances in history of evil people who happened to be brilliant in their own way, so this isn't the first time this has happened.

I think that one of the main problems that we Democrats have had is that we have continued to underestimate the other side. I remember a lot of people saying before 2000 that we didn't need to worry about Bush because he is too "stupid." Well, he and his backers just happened to be so "stupid" that they managed to get him in there for two terms.

[Robert Oak]

6. the "cultural divide" is a corporate sponsored myth

I just got off the phone in talking to Kentucky on some business...
she mentioned how great the bankruptcy bill was as a comment
to my discussion of corporate bankrupticies...

I corrected her that the bankruptcy bill is only for inidivuduals,
corporate bankruptcy is unchanged...plus discussed the loopholes
that the rich can easily afford to do and still get out of their
debt...

she had no idea and was shocked...
literally she did not have that basic information on the bill..
she thought it was going after corporations!

"Red state" people get one form of propaganda and liberals
get another and it keeps the middle class divided and thus
has no real political power to join forces and stop the ruining
of the nation state by multinational corporate agenda.

Finding the facts is truly the issue...so it's up to everyone
who is diligent to present the actual facts...

Truth shall set thy free.

[Carolab]

11. See? They are UNINFORMED.

And they DON'T BOTHER to find out the facts.

WHY, oh WHY, is it MY job to educate them???

[Robert Oak]

19. because if you don't

propaganda efforts will...

they are very trusting and just believe within their "social circle"
which unfortunately is manipulating the hell out of them.

The "social circle" is their cultural identity, church, local news,
friends, representatives...

this is how the grassroots "mailings" have worked...they have managed
to operate within this circle of trust to spread propaganda.

[laugle]

35. Thanks for enlightening me also,

I consider myself well informed but I found not much was discussed on the bankrupcy bill. I kept wondering how it effects people like Donald Trump, who is notorious for his bankrupcy filings. Damit, I knew those bastards would have a loophole, but I wasn't sure what it was. There must be some exemptions added to that crummy bill, such as for death, divorce, and god forbid medical bills. As far as those people who charge up $100,000 plus, when they only make 40,000 and file bankrupcy, I think they must be reined in.

[The Doctor.]

7. I assume you have tried.

And your avatar looks familiar.

I have had good discussions with fellow Republicans. There are many who are simply interested in discussion.

The problem is that there are a few ignorant blow-hards and egomaniacs who are more interested in labelling than debating.

When a self proclaimed 'conservative' sees that I do not outright agree with them, they will resort to name-calling as though calling me a liberal somehow defeats my argument.

It's a shame that the screaming heads work so hard to keep us separated... and your post indicates it is working.

[Carolab]

10. It's not the screaming heads, as I have shut them off.

Cancelled my cable, in fact.

It's the individuals I have, personally, tried to "break through to".

Am I just having a run of bad luck? I haven't found ONE Bushie yet who will just listen and understand the facts. They are BADLY misinformed and they are INCREDIBLY thick.

[The Doctor.]

25. It is best to genuinely inquire... to earnestly ask their opinion

on an issue.

Then say, "Would your opinion be the same if you knew (this/that/theotherthing) about this issue?"

"No? Ok, then why is (this/that/theotherthing)?" or "Then how would you explain (T/T/TOT)?"

Ask questions - control the conversation.

[silvermachine]

43. There are more than a few...

<<<The problem is that there are a few ignorant blow-hards and egomaniacs who are more interested in labelling than debating.>>>


There are WAY more than a few. In fact, I'd say it is much the reverse in my experience. I have had some good conversations (you know, actual thought, give and take, a mutual exchange of ideas) but far more examples of this:

<<<When a self proclaimed 'conservative' sees that I do not outright agree with them, they will resort to name-calling as though calling me a liberal somehow defeats my argument.>>>

As an aside to something completely different, I saw SOM sometime in either '82 or possibly '83 at a University in London, very good show. The Smith's opened (I don't think "This Charming Man" had even been released at this point, though Morrissey did brandish a bouquet of flowers as he sung. Never my favorite band...) and I think maybe the Laughing Clowns (Aussie post-Saints band led by Ed Kuepper, they almost sounded like Van der Graaf Generator with Robert Smith singing at times!) played as well. I know SOM closed with Gimme Shelter. I was hoping for their version of Silver Machine as an encore, but that had to wait for another show...

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

8. Shame is a useful tactic for non-Koolaid drinkers

As a Republican for Kerry voter, I proudly discuss how I will never vote for anyone (Republican or other) who:

Marginalizes a sector of our society in order to legitimize themselves

Uses bullying techniques to cower opposition in domestic affairs

Displays arrogant, short-sighted and unilateral actions in foreign policy

Spends recklessly today while destroying our children's (and grandchildren's) future

Can't speak intelligently

Would want to have a beer with me.

[applegrove]

12. Some of the ones you meet up with on the boards are hired guns

and well aware of their own hypocrisy. Point out their inability to argue the issues, their lack of education and their role as patsies.

Most people have hearts. You need to reach out to those people. Who just want a secure future for their families.

Many, many millions of those.

Appeal to them as adults.

[tabasco]

14. I'm in the same boat.

Freepers are still outraged that Dan Rather spoke the truth about George Bush. They are outraged about that but think it's ok that caskets fly into Dover everyday because BUSH LIED.

I cannot associate with these people anymore. I do not feel the need to try and convince these zombies of anything. They are either stupid or wilfully ignorant and I can tolerate neither.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nite Owl]

16. I have given up talking to the

'far right' too. It's pretty much hopeless, all they want to do is argue, they don't want to hear the truth. They are in denial. As far as republicans though, the real ones that are left they are in agreement with us on lots of things. ANWAR, the judges, lots of issues, we aren't that far apart. These are the ones that need the facts and they are willing to discuss things. I don't understand though why they still identify with the party of hate. How far does the republican party need to go to the extreme that they will no longer want to be associated with them?

[Auntie Bush]

17. I take offense with that nasty comment!

"They are dumb, bigoted, greedy, hateful and mean"

Hey! I've got relatives on the "other side" too.

Only mine are dead and don't bother no one!

But I've got some beauties that are still living.

[Moderate Dem]

20. Uh, yeah, everyone who doesn't agree with me...

is stupid...

[Carolab]

28. Uh, no

I'm talking about people who ignore the FACTS, not my opinions.

[laugle]

21. You can always tell

the ones who can't be persuaded, they don't want to hear the truth. However the ones that ask questions of you, can be persuaded. I know, I've done it on political chat rooms. The powers of persuasion are an awesome thing if you possess them. Anyway, it's obvious that the dems need some converts, so don't give up!!!

[Bridget Burke]

22. Sometimes it's not easy to tell, immediately.

A simple question or statement can sometimes catch them off guard. Sometimes the glimmer of intelligence is there & needs encouraging. Maybe there's a news story or editorial that will make them see things in a different light.

Of course, some are hopeless. They don't even understand sarcasm!

If you're not up to it, don't try.

[LunaC]

23. Never try to teach a pig to sing.......

it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

I just don't waste my time trying anymore.

[ClassWarrior]

24. Then don't. There's a different role for you in all this.

NGU.

[POAS]

26. Suggestion? ...........yea......... avoid em! ...........n/t

[eridani]

27. Maybe some guerilla ontology?

Facts aren't going to do the trick. Something that I've found useful is to ask about any of their assertions is "Suppose what they say is true? What underlying assumptions about how the world works would have to be true in order to make the surface statement true?" Then start chipping away at the foundation.

A really good example is that law student who asked Scalia if he sodomized his wife. For Scalia to say "Nunnayou beeswax" would have had him invoking the privacy right that he says doesn't exist. If that doesn't put a crack in Scalia's intellectual foundation, it certainly will for a lot of the other listeners.

[zippy890]

29. I feel the same way - they are hateful and selfish

Its pointless to try and discuss in a reasonable manner the issues involved, I've tried.

"Vast wall of stupidity" built on an ideology that is not going to budge.

Its an ugly, imposing wall and its spreading its ugliness like a plague.

[borg5575]

40. I understand your "selfish" comment.

However, even though their ideology may well be a selfish one, I have seen acts of charity coming from red state people. Those people in and of themselves may not be selfish in their personal lives, but they have been hijacked by this rogue ideology and they can't see it.

[xchrom]

30. i can't either -- and i don't feel bad about it.

that's for other's to do.

it's my job to support with my money and volunteer time those issues that move me.

there are others here that feel with enough good will in their hearts they will move people with their righteous intelligence -- well if that were true then in 2005 we wouldn't be where we are.

i can't teach remedial common sense -- a waste of my life if there ever was one.

[ArkDem]

31. Only deal with people at your IQ level.

[Adelante]

32. If you can't, you can't

Those who can do it will. It's important to break out of the circle jerk and try to educate people, but there's lots of other stuff as or more important. Don't worry about this one thing if it's not where your head is.

[BlueIris]

33. I say you shouldn't be sorry.

I can't say I'm having any more success trying to "see their side of it," either. At all. In fact, after a particularly nasty run-in with a person I was trying to forget was a dyed-in-the-wool anti-choice misogynist last night (we were discussing the need for bipartisan environmental support) and failing miserably to do anything but bow-out of the conversation steaming mad and offended, I'm not cut-out for the "empathize with their values" shit either. I've put up with some damn nasty people for the sake of getting concrete help for the Democrats (registering voters), but I can't anymore. Not for something as arguably ineffectual as trying to convince them to see our side of it. That "side" being the idea that oppression, hatred, bigotry and misogyny (not to mention that little war going on right now) are, in fact, wrong. You should not have to develop or feign support or "fair consideration" for any of these repulsive problems OR the people invested in continuing them because, well, they're assholes.

[wmills551]

34. I suggest

that you look for common ground and start from there. If you don't believe that common ground exists then look again! Thanks for asking.

[MockSwede]

37. SMILE

They'll wonder what you're so happy about and be friggin' jealous.
"I have a happiness!" and there's nothing you can do to take that away from me.

[MsTryska]

38. Well one thing i try not to do

is convince people to coem over to my side.


I just stick to the facts, and my beliefs like a big brick wall.


over months. they start coming around in bits and pieces when they realize i'm right.

[mikelewis]

39. KBO

Keep Buggering On

This is what Winston Churchhill used to say. When Germany was building its secret army and gearing up for a new world war, Churchhill was the only person in the Parliment warning his peers and the people of impending danger. Most didn't want to believe it but as the truth became evident, who did they turn to? Old Winston, of course. So Keep Buggering On Carolab, you and everyone else here are doing just fine.

Sincerely,
Michael Lewis

[w4rma]

44. We've got to communicate with them (and them us). It's our responsibility

as members of a democratic-republic. This communication works to keep a minority from oppressing the majority (and vice versa).

[bunkerbuster1]

46. We have to recognize that every individual is different.

Every "Bushie" (using the OP's term) may seem to fall into a pigeonhole, but if you really know someone you can usually find some things that set them apart.

Almost everyone who rails against an intrusive federal government, for example, benefits in some distinct way from the federal government. But you won't know that if you don't know that person.

Almost everyone who thinks Dems are "baby killers" because they're more likely to be pro-choice, benefits in some distinct way from the reproductive freedom that we progressives have managed to secure in the past century. Again, you want know that if you don't know that person.

You get the idea. Stubborn people are kind of like oil tankers, it's hard to turn 'em but you can a little at a time.

And then (as others have pointed out) online, there are professional disruptors who aren't dealing with you honestly, who can't be turned at all. THOSE folks, it's true, you shouldn't bother with.

But there are plenty you can, and should, talk to. It's real hard for honest Republican voters to demonize people they actually know.

[Mr.Green93]

45. Forget them

Immigration will change everything our way very soon. *'s amnesty program will give the Democratic Party millions of new voters.