Go Bolton!!!

[aneerkoinos]

This is so sad.

I really hope they elect Bolton, he's guaranteed to do enormous damage to US Empire and global corporatocracy.

I'm not impressed by the Dems performance. Really, this guy is so incomptetent and hazardous there shouldn't even be any discussion. And the sad part is that "inflamed" Dems don't really disagree vocally with Bush Agenda to sabotage UN, they (imperialist smartypants and realists they are) only fear the painfully obvious, that Bolton is going to harm the interests of US empire more than UN.

Fucking weasels.

Bolton to UN, go go go!!!

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

1. Surely...

You jest?

[aneerkoinos]

3. No

I'm anti-Empire green socialist. And a bloody foreigner. Thinking strategically, Bolton would do wonders to embarrass U.S.A and seriously damage the Empire.

Dems are the smart realist imperialists, neocons the stupid blinded by supremacist ideology, therefore I fear the smart Dems more than the stupid rethooligans.

[emulatorloo]

6. Yeah & I thought strategically it would be ok for Ronnie to get a 2nd term

because he would be discredited and all.

But now they want to put him on dimes and things.

[aneerkoinos]

11. Carter

All hope for US social market economy lost when Carter was not re-elected, RayGun II was a good thing, laying the ground for destruction of the capitalist Empire with policies of unreigned capitalism showing what it really is.

These things don't happen overnight, but take at least couple generations.

Bolton would be a perfect catalyst to insult rest of the world and thus bring the inevitable ruin of US quicker. Sad fact is that there is no hope for organized US society, no hope of soft landing, and the quicker it collapses, the better the world will be and greater chanses of soft landing.

I'm not cynical, just realist. The future of the globe, if there is one, is socialist. For US empire there is no future and the sooner people give up their fantasies and false hopes, better the chanses of rebuilding US from the scratch.

[Firespirit]

12. That's nice.

You wouldn't want your country brought down by the stupidity and malice of people in its government, I hope. I'm not sure of that, but I hope.

The problem with the idea of letting bad ideologies self-destruct is that the destruction can take down too many innocent victims. WWII and the events leading up to it sure did reveal the true side of Nazism, but was it worth the cost in lives? Wouldn't it have been better for Hitler to have somehow been stopped in his tracks early rather than letting him do what he wanted? (Do I want to hear the answer to that?)

It's one thing to say that you'd like to see neoconservatism be discredited, but it's quite another to say that you'd like to see millions of people suffer because of a particular method of having it discredited. There are other ways of showing it to be a failure that don't involve destruction.

[aneerkoinos]

17. Yes I'm nice

But you didn't get the main point: Dem's smart and realistic imperialism and global domination is not actually different in it's destructive consequenses, only more practical and effective. In the long run self-preserving Clintonites (and their European and other neo-liberal allies) do worse damage that the self-destructive Neocons.

[Firespirit]

22. I noticed that you didn't respond to MY main point

...which, incidentally, does address your point that neoconservatism should be allowed to self-destruct. You cannot argue that giving them what they want to make that happen would have a terrible, and completely unnecessary, cost to humanity.

I do not agree with you that the Democratic Party supports imperialism and global domination. Repugs don't like the UN and have hated it for years; the Democratic Party is willing to work with it. You bash Clinton, and I'm certainly not supportive of everything he did, but he wasn't out to dismantle or neuter the UN like Bush is. True American liberals understand the need to work with others in the world; the neocons just say "screw it all." Just because you see all American politicians as having the same agenda, doesn't mean that they DO.

And sorry, but Dems do not do worse damage than neocons. Name an American Dem or European liberal who's done more damage to the world than George Bush's administration, and explain exactly what said damage consisted of and why it is worse than what Bush has done.

[aneerkoinos]

28. I thought I did

But sorry, I try to be more clear this time: US is a giant on clay feet, the ability of Neocon's to inflict harm on others than US is greatly overestimated, OK they got Iraq and Haiti, but not Venezueala and rest of LA. What damage US empire and economy is doing to globe is on a totally different scale. It's not just about berserk neocons, the real problems are structural. And dems are not promising to change the structures, but to protect them.

[Firespirit]

32. Your argument is coming to pieces...

Here are your points.

1. Bolton should be confirmed so that he can humiliate the US in front of the world.
2. And this will help discredit the US globally
3. And take down Neoconservatism
4. Which will help to take down the US global empire
5. But Neocons really aren't as bad as Democrats
6. Because Democrats are evil, sneaky, and insidious in their corporatist aims, while Neocons are blunt about what they stand for
7. And anyway Dems have done worse damage
8. And the Neocons aren't really THAT dangerous


OK so if allowing the Neocons free rein to do as they wish isn't REALLY such a bad thing, because (according to you) they can't do that much damage, then how could they do anything that would result in bringing about your ideal society?

:eyes:

[aneerkoinos]

37. Two forces

1. Global corporate oligarchy, short termist to the core, not exclusive to US, US is just their power base. We got enough of those market fundamentalist fuckheads in Europe too, in positions of power.

2. Global opinion, caring for the future of our children.

I take side with the latter.

My logic is sound, Global Opinion and Democracy is strong, winning against US and IMF and World Bank in South America, but Neocons can work as catalysts to bring down the Empire sooner than later by pissing off all the sectors outside their small circle, fascist circle that the scared people of US are incabable of standing against. So Bolton would be ideal to insult enough people not prop up US consumerism by stopping to lend couple billions of worlds savings to US.

The fate of your country and your people are in your hands, I'm just stating the obvious, that US economy and federal state is doomed to collapse. It is up to you, my brothers and sisters, to do what is needed to help yourselves. All I can do is to give advice to abandon faith in capitalism, consumerism, greed and individualism, rest is beyond my means.

[Fire Walk With Me]

35. Bush has Bolton; Reagan had Bork

Bork Bork Bork

http://www.mediatransparency.org/people/robert_bork.htm

[Name removed]

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[aneerkoinos]

14. Smug?

Perhaps, perhaps not. Finland is not socialist, we are going neoliberal big-way against the will of the majority, because Liberal democracy, even the Finnish version, considered internationally the highest democratic standard, is not really democratic. Global economy, aka corporatocracy, is not under democratic control, whatever people vote. Finland is ruled by Nokia and Bilderberg elite, not the people, even though some people still try.

I understand you live in US and have little choise. I can understand why you think I'm smug, and instead of making a case attack me personally. I understand your fear. But I believe I'm just trying to be ruthlesly honest and realistic from the point of view of the moral precepts I've set: economic equality, human rights, real democracy, all this on global scale. I'm sorry, but nothing effective can be done about Global enviromental issues, if US does not collapse. And these are things that should have been done allready, each year, each day of US domination makes things worse for the Mother Gaia, and the chanses of humanity staying alive.

And my wishes about timetable aside, realistically there is no hope for US as an organized federal state, what hope remains is on the level of local autonomous communities and perhaps on some individual states. That's where the progressive fight should be, not in Washington, but starting to rebuild on state level, because realistically, there is nothing else to do. Sorry, but truth is not subservient to wishfull thinking, things can only get better by accepting the reality and working from that.

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[babylonsister]

26. I am speechless-well done! I obviously agree; smugness

and selfishness seem to be flourishing on this thread tonight.

[Name removed]

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[derby378]

2. Yeah, yeah...NO.

We don't need this guy embarassing America along with everyone else!

[BlueManDude]

he wouldn't embarrass the US he would embarrass Bush

Bolton would be a disaster at the UN which is why I want him confirmed.

[aneerkoinos]

4. Maybe not

But the people of the world might need.

[WildEyedLiberal]

5. Yeah if Democrats really cared about us

They'd leap across the table to beat the shit out of Bolton, then go firebomb the White House. The fact that they're too spineless to do so shows what yellow-bellied pansies they are!!

Not a dime's worth of difference!!

:sarcasm:

Did you actually watch any of the hearing?

[B0S0X87]

20. What the hell are you smoking?

The Dems on the committee are united against Bolton, it's the Repubs who are cracking.

[babylonsister]

24. I do believe I detected a hint of

dripping sarcasm in the post above yours, FYI

[WildEyedLiberal]

27. Um

This :sarcasm: means I wasn't being serious. I don't actually think the Dems should firebomb the White House. Too much American heritage would be destroyed if they did that. :P

[B0S0X87]

29. I really should read the entire post before I respond

I'll make that my New Year's resolution

[WildEyedLiberal]

34. Hee

In April?

Ah well, never too late to start. :P

[ArnoldLayne]

7. Yea go Bolten

go straight to Hell.

[Name removed]

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[aneerkoinos]

16. What is at stake

It's not much, it's all.

Liberals still practice wishfull thinking and fool themselves hoping that capitalism can be saved by a new FDR. Sorry, not gonna happen.

With Peak Oil (and simultaneous population&aging problem) Global economy is entering a long period of negative economic growth, which growth dependent capitalism by it's very nature cannot survive. Social inequality grows so wide that the structure of capitalistic and individualistic societies collapses. Europe might collapse as well as US, we just have marginally better chances.

What is at stake is the whole human civilization, the challenge is evolutionary leap from individuality and selfish tribalism to global solidarity and sustainable economy respecting Gaia, if we wan't to survive and evolve.

[sweetheart]

9. Agreed, Bolton is a brilliant choice

Its time we practiced akido and helped the neocons elevate their most
ignorant members to high office, as the damage they'll do to the neocon
cause is greater than any a political opposition without franchise in
ANY branch of government might achieve.

Go Bolton, Go Wolfowitz, you chaps will make the world listen to the
big US military dick and best you talk using words like "sole superpower"
and you other countries are not "with us", so you're "against us" and
be foul and rude.... oh what diplomaccy...

Marie Antoinette was a godsend for the french revolutionaries, and we
should similary seek out and help promote the sickest, most depraved
republicans for high promotion, just so the world can see what they're
really about. Its the least "we" can do. :-)

[aneerkoinos]

15. Aikido

You get it.

[elcondor]

13. All this is well and good EXCEPT

having Bolton in the UN will have very real, very negative consequences for actual PEOPLE. I would normally ascribe to the theory of helping them fall on their swords ... but only when it comes to things that aren't going to adversely affect both my fellow country-people and those around the world. That's like voting for Bush last time around just to show everyone too ignorant to realize the truth what a fuck-up he is.

I think the Dems on the Foreign Affairs committee did a fantastic job today, it did make a difference. Voinovich is a senator of mine ... I'm positive that he wouldn't have shown hesitation had people not spoken up. But, as is shown so often on DU, some people will never be satisfied.

[aneerkoinos]

18. I realize I'm a party-pooper

But I cannot loose my sense of scale.

Two stolen elections, end of even nominal democracy, fascist corporatocracy kissing goodbuy human rights and rule of law, endless war, and the progressive get enthusiastic when the smart imperialists supposed to represent them speak eloquently against a certified lunatic berserk, and score a minor fleeting victory?

What is sad is how little it takes to make dems happy against the size of "problems". Problems is quotations because the scale is not "problems", but survival...

[Name removed]

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[Trajan]

36. Firstly ...

The United States of America is NOT an 'empire', even if it seems it's leaders BEHAVE as if they were ....

The current regime in the US is dastardly, NOT it's people, NOT it's primary institutions, NOT it's Constitution, and NOT it's intent ...

I am proud to be a free american, and I intend to stay that way ...

It is our responsibility to toss these rascals out, and to do so in a manner befitting our progressive legacy ...

You make the same mistake that freepers do: you presume tht George Bush himself, and his party of radicals, are America Incarnate ... as if THEY represent all of america ...

Well, as you can READ in this forum, there are many americans who REJECT the dystopic GOP regimen, and the Neocon philosophy in it's entirety ...

Yet YOU want to punish the whole lot of us ... ME included ...

Well .. bullshit ... I will not self flaggelate with barbed wire, nor will I allow you to force such a beating ...

FUCK Bolton .. He deserves to go to hell ...

FUCK George Bush .... AND the GOP ... THEY can go to hell as well ..

But Ill be damned if I and my fellow american progressives are to be held to the same standard as George Bush ....

I love my country, and I love the world I live in ...

But Ill never lose sight of the dreams of Locke, Rousseau, Paine, et al: just because George Bush happens to be an asshole ... ....

[aneerkoinos]

39. Structural problems

I accept your points, and mostly agree. But the problems and imbalances that go back at least to Raygun regime, are simply not solvable without major turmoil and lot of suffering inside US.

This is not what I wish, it is simply realism. The problem is not that even with economic collapse the Richest Country in the World would not have the means to support it's population with decent level. The problem is that as a society US is incapable of doing that, despite the good people on DU. Here on DU I see some of the best of America, the most decent people, and sadly they are a small minority, and even most of them are still delusional.

I don't want to punish anybody, even if I did, I couldn't. I have no power but my own spiritual freedom. Please don't misinterprete me that way. Realistic (or cynical, if you prefer) analysis of global politics and wishfull thinking are different things, hope you can grant me that.

All the best!

[Name removed]

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[aneerkoinos]

31. Sure

Read the other posts. I'm totally rational.

[ReadTomPaine]

38. I am familiar with your point of view, AK

Bush’s people do not make mistakes very often. Appearance aside they are smarter than you are, more dedicated, more resourceful and better connected. If they want John Bolton, it’s not because they don’t know something you do. You can be assured that he’s the perfect man for the job. They have Annan’s number, and he’s got a bad haircut. You say he’ll be laughed out of the UN. I say he’ll be used to beat them into submission. Odd are I’m right, given the track record so far. He’s a wonderfully efficient blunt weapon, no? Made for the job, in fact. Just like Porter Goss for the CIA. Almost unique.

Now, lets take that step back in perspective you are referring to, shall we?

A US collapse of the type that you are outlining would not be the outcome of a peak oil scenario. The eventual outcome for you would be the co-opting of European Union governing powers by hostile foreign nations, and the possible usage of nuclear weapons elsewhere. Negroponte and his successors and opponents will also make sure there are assassinations galore.

If, as you likely feel, the USA became something other than a democracy on the day GWB was named its President then you also must realize that on that day that every stabilizing influence, every diplomatic agreement, every treaty signed was suddenly meaningless. By your own philosophy, you are not any safer in your country than someone sitting in Texas. The last time you fought fascism, you were in a stronger position, and lost. This time it will be a rout. These guys are professionals. They will have necks under their heel. Your necks.

There are ways out of these dark political times, but with this opposition, you never give them what they want. That’s called ‘appeasement’ not aikido. Hand to hand is not going to work anyway. They use snipers, remember? If you want the softest route out of this mess to be a reality, it’s going to take every victory, big and small, as well as international intervention. Aim higher than a cave or a gulag if you want to avoid living in one.

RTP

[aneerkoinos]

44. Very eloquent

But sorry, Bush people are not smarter than me (or you). Really.

Risking sounding hubristic, I'm smarter and wiser than most of politicians, in any county - not all, of course.

What you are really saying in your post that you yourself are more stupid than neocons, but sorry, I refuse to believe that. I think you too, are smarter.

[ReadTomPaine]

46. Don't underestimate them.

That's often mistake #1. Intelligence issues aside, I think that's something easily agreed on.

[aneerkoinos]

49. Sure, agreed.

Don't underestimate, but also don't overestimate them. Hold your marbles.

[Arkana]

42. Yep, totally rational.

Except the part where you advocate Bolton's confirmation to hasten the collapse of the United States.

Like a lot of people here have already told you, this guy isn't going to be laughed out of the UN. He will be used as a blunt object to beat them into submission. The hearings have proven what an asshole the guy is. I don't want someone like him representing us in one of the greatest institutions in the world.

[aneerkoinos]

45. Hey

If even the US weasel Senate is fervently opposed to this guy, do you think rest of the world woud be any less so? It's not the politics he supports, I have no doubts about lack of spine from Euro corporatocrats, it's the fact that Bolton would have the almost unnatural talent to insult and make personal enemies of many people with some actual influence that might otherwise go along with the Empire.

[TorchTheWitch]

40. Easy for you to say since you don't live here

You wouldn't be so callous if you had to live here. You can sit in your armchair in Finland and watch it all happen with your popcorn and beer. Except it doesn't work like that. If the US collapses, other countries are going to feel the hurt. China and Japan immediately come to mind, but Finland's economy will take some hard knocks... how much of that Nokia business comes from the US?

I guess the world should have just sat back and watched Hitler destroy Germany and other European countries... just raze it to the ground and start all over, right? Uh... start over WITH WHAT?

What the hell, clearly the best thing to do to straighten out the world is to just blast off all of Earth's nukes, kill everything but the cockroaches and REALLY start from scratch. Obviously, all the death and destruction would just be a minor inconvenience. Eventually, Earth will put itself to rights and we can start all over with evolution and surely a better species then humans will emerge at some point... of course, it wouldn't happen in our lifetimes, but who cares, since razing the US and getting it built up better from scratch won't happen in our lifetimes either, so what difference does it make?

Yeah, that's the idea... we'll just nuke the whole world and start all over. Brilliant.

[aneerkoinos]

48. True

I don't nurture any faux hopes about the future of capitalism anywhere, yes, with US the whole house of cards is likely to go down. But that is inevitable, so why worry?

Rest of your post is inconsequent blather, unless you mean that US is so evil that it will nuke the rest of the world just to bring it down because US is going down, out of pure spite. I do hope youre wrong, but scared still.

[Name removed]

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[Moderator]

53. Locking, Flame bait