Democrats need to learn that not all Liberals are Democrats

[Toots]

MoveOn is a Liberal organization, not Democratic. They are for what is right for all Americans not what is right for the Democratic party. If high ranking Democrats want to vote for corporate interests against the interests of the common people then expect to be called on it. They are being served notice and should pay attention....

[Dhalgren]

1. Good point!

"Progressive" does not equal "Democrat".

[suigeneris]

2. Right. As if southern segregationist Dems in the old days were liberals.

Lots of examples. Notice, though, that all freepers and most Republicans equate Dem with liberal. Educate them where you can.

[Larkspur]

3. That is correct, and I'm a Democrat and member of my DTC

I agree with Moveon.org on this issue. Primary races are where these things are settle withing the Dem Party, so I can see Moveon supporting a Dem Primary opponent, who is progressive, or if no primary opponent comes forward, I can see them supporting a Third Party or at-large progressive candidate.

[DaveinMD]

4. and maybe

spending what little money they now have to bring down real conservatives would have been a better use of scarce resources.

[chaska]

5. Move On is practically drowning in money.

I support this action. It's time to show these guys that they work for us.

[DaveinMD]

6. then

why aren't they running ads in districts with vulnerable Republicans. Instead, they go after a good Democrat for one bad vote. This kind of stuff is why we keep losing.

[IrateCitizen]

8. Exactly. Not standing up for basic values is why we keep losing.

An example of which would be a member of the Democratic Congressional Leadership voting in favor of a bankruptcy reform bill that stands to evicerate working families and single mothers who are struggling already.

The Democrats are now an OPPOSITION PARTY. They hold no real power, so it is even MORE important for them to stick together. So when a prominent Dem sells out the rest of his party on an important issue, it's time to kick him back into line.

[OzarkDem]

25. That's the party's job

not MoveOn's. Smart Dems know you should disagree with your leaders when necessary, but never in such a public way that is so damaging to the party.

There are less destructive ways to make the point.

[chaska]

9. Wrong....

We keep losing because we don't stand for a damn thing.

MoveOn is dead on the mark with this. We have to have party discipline. It's exactly how the pugs came to power.

Notice to Dems: Get in line or get out of our way. Vote like a Dem or face a primary challenger.

This is the most important thing we need to do right now.

May I remind, that Dems voted heavily for Condi, for Gonzales, what else - there's tons of stuff? There have been a whole series of votes where our party voted heavily with the pugs. WE WILL PUT A STOP TO THIS.

[DaveinMD]

10. Hoyer

voted for none of those things. The House doesn't vote on those things. We are better served attacking Republicans. If all Dems voted against ths bill, it wouldn't have made an ounce of difference. Every Republican voted for the bill, but you want to attack Democrats instead. This is completely why we lose.

[chaska]

12. I disagree. We lose because we have reps that don't represent us.

We will lose until we stand up for what's right.

I am sure that Moveon had their reasons for going after Hoyer. It's called strategy. They know what they're doing. I would be surprised if - what with their close ties to Howard Dean - they didn't have Dean's blessing.

What's stupid is to allow our party to continue to drift evermore rightward or to be all over the place. Discipline is what will win it back for us.

Edit: Besides from what I understand there is no chance that Hoyer will lose.

[flpoljunkie]

17. Wrong, Dave. The Senate Democrats could have stopped the bill. It takes

only 41 votes. They chose not to do so.

This one-sided bankruptcy bill has passed the House three times, but has been held up in the Senate, until now.

[DaveinMD]

22. They are criticizing Hoyer

When did Hoyer become a Senator. How did I miss that. I'm sure it would have been on the local news.

[flpoljunkie]

35. Agree on the point that MoveOn ought to criticize Senate Dems who voted

for this one-sided bankruptcy bill, too--and that includes Harry Reid. It does seem odd that they would single out Hoyer since it was the Senate Democrats who could have stopped the bill in its tracks by rounding up 41 votes to stop cloture, failed to do so.

Dick Durbin voted against the bill.

[Hippo_Tron]

19. I would've voted for Condi if I were in the Senate

I'm also against the death penalty, 100% pro choice, pro universal healthcare, anti Patriot Act, anti Free Trade, pro environment, and consider myself a loyal member of the Democratic Party? Should I leave the party because I don't pass your litmus test?

[chaska]

24. Huh???

"I would've voted for Condi if I were in the Senate"

Lord God, why?

Who said anything about leaving the party? And why would I want you specifically to leave the party? Am I for scaring the bejesus out of Dems to make them vote like Dems? You're damn right I am.

We are simply too loose as a party. We are all over the place and we are getting our asses (no pun) kicked because of it. We must define our party and hold our members to that definition.

We must become Dems again. Joe Public is going to be fed to the teeth with pugs by '06 (I hope, but certainly by '08). We must presesnt an ALTERNATIVE. An alternative, not pug lite. There must be no doubt of where we stand. That means disciplining OUR GUYS.

I repeat, this is a strategy by MoveOn. Investigate the strategy, or give them the benefit of the doubt. If you fight them you will lose and you certainly won't help our cause in the process. Exert your influence over them before an action not after. Don't waste time.

[Hippo_Tron]

26. You're right, I want progressives too

But the bottom line is that in '08 we need a progressive presidential nominee and I think that we should focus our energy on that and not outsting incumbent senators because we don't like the way that they vote sometimes.

My point was about litmus tests that people on DU seem to have that are based on only a single issue. Some senators with very good voting records voted YEA on Condi for reasons having to do with traditions in the senate. Do you suggest that we purge every senator in the party because they voted for Condi?

[chaska]

27. Of course not, but....

It's time to get tough. Our reps have sold us out time after time after time since Nov.

I don't want to kill them, just scare the hell out of 'em. I trust what MoveOn did here. I think they targetted Hoyer for carefully chosen reasons.

[Toots]

32. Well we are talking about the Democratic Whip not a Senator

Do you understand the role of the whip? When the Whip votes against core Democratic Principles and does not do his job as Whip you can bet your bottom dollar he should be called on it. this guy is not just an ordinary Representative. He is the bloody whip for christ's sake....

[tsuki]

20. Yes, and what I am hearing from the few real Republicans left

is that they like Dean. They know what he stands for. They may not agree, but they respect him.

Yet every time he opens his mouth, there are groups of Democrats that call for his removal because he doesn't understand the nuance.

Nuance be damned.

[Trajan]

29. Perhaps much of that money comes from Democrats ? ...

How much money would moveon LOSE if they attack the Democratic Party as a whole ? ...

I am Liberal, and I am Democrat, and I dont like what has been happening in Congress, but I would be hard pressed to act in concert with (or give money to) someone who expresses hatred towards me ...

[ClassWarrior]

7. Progressives need to learn that all liberals are dead.

FDR and JFK were good liberals, but progressive times call for Progressive values.

Aside from that, you're right, not all Progressives are Democrats. But I think the confusion has more to do with the Radical RW's framing than ignorance on our part.

NGU.

[LittleClarkie]

30. I'm not going to let the Republicans chase me away from that word

I'm a Liberal, damn it!

Hiya ClassWarrior.

[ClassWarrior]

34. Lakoff says it'd take us 30 years to claim it back. I'd rather spend...

...that valuable time fighting for children's rights, fair elections, the environment, etc. The words aren't important, LC. The values ARE.

:hi: my friend...

NGU.

[GreenPartyVoter]

11. Time to draw some Venn diagrams. :^)

http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/

[wyldwolf]

13. perhaps, then, Democrats should quit contributing to them...

I mean, if they're "serving notice" on our leaders, let's just put MoveOn out of their misery and cut their funding. Serve THEM notice. I've contributed twice but no another dime from me.

Yeah, sounds harsh, but I'm tired of these "we own the party -- we don't own the party--- we own the party" types.

[welshTerrier2]

14. is this what is meant by "single issue voting" ??

just jerking your chain a little ... enjoying it though ....

[wyldwolf]

16. I can assure you my chain has not been jerked

[cestpaspossible]

15. Yeah, that's one of our basic structural problems

I still don't understand why they chose to target Hoyer, btw. Reid also voted for the bankruptcy bill and he is an even more prominent and visible leader.

[Toots]

33. Because Hoyer is the Democratic Whip

Do you understand the role of the Whip? If a regular Representative wants to vote for whatever that is fine but not the Whip. The Whip never ever ever votes against Core Democratic Principles. In fact he whips other Democrats into voting Democratic. When our own Damn Whip votes against us we are lost......

[cestpaspossible]

36. Yeah

I understand the role of the Whip. Do you understand the role of the Minority Leader?

[demwing]

18. I'm not concerned

because the political war that counts will not be between the Dem and the Repub, nor between the Conservative and the Liberal, but between the populist and the corporate elite, between the egalitarian and the steel-booted neo-fascist.

Party politics will have as little impact on that war as dinosaurs have on today's food chain.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

21. We already have only one party, Dems need to be accountable again.

Many Dems are Republicans elected under false flags.
Many are corrupt.
Many are without noticeable principles.
Some must be downright terrified to fly home. Wellstone?

People don't consider that politicians probably know the electronic voting machines are rigged and don't want to deal with it, it's easier to play pretend elections and take all that money.

Wrong time to embrace the impotent and traitors. Give 'em all hell.
AND no votes for anyone who doesn't fix the electronic voting machines.
Just in case it puts some heat under them even if voting is rigged.

[OzarkDem]

23. Working Assets Pulled the Same Stunt

when Clinton was first elected, raising money and starting grassroots campaigns to criticize Clinton for the most ridiculous things, IIRC really heavy on the gay agenda when Clinton was trying to do health care reform. That's why I quit using their long distance service and never supported them after. It was an incredibly bad idea and I'd hope MoveOn doesn't make the same mistake.

[LittleClarkie]

28. Point taken, but not everything they do is golden

Byrd voted for the Bankruptcy bill too, and yet they raised money for him.

And what about Reid? That was the leader of the Dems, and he was fairly crowing about his involvement in this bill. And yet they went after Hoyer. Why him, specifically?

Alittle uneven in their condemnation, I'd say.

Not to mention, surely there is something more pressing they could be spending their money on than punishing Dems, whether they are Dems themselves or not. Going after one guy for one vote, and then raising money for another Dem who voted the same damn way (presumably because of his stance on Iraq) is just weird.

[bklyncowgirl]

31. The Republicans have the fundies to keep their politicians in line.

If a Republican bucks the party line he knows he's going to get hammered by the right wing organizations. It helps keep them in line.

I think that the Democrats need a little message discipline and Moveon is a good way to do it outside the party structure.

A Democrat might think twice about voting against the interests of the majority of his constituents if he had to face a primary challenge and ads funded by Moveon.

[Moderate Dem]

37. Maybe Liberals should learn

that all Democrats are not Liberals either...

[Disturbed]

38. Wasn't it 43 Dems that voted for..

the Bankruptcy Bill? What sort of Opposition Party is that?