Moveon Hypocrisy on Hoyer

[sandnsea]

Links in post:
http://www.lightupthedarkness.org/blog/default.asp?view=plink&id=747

Moveon defended its attack on Steny Hoyer in an interview with Raw Story, saying, “It’s not acceptable for a Democratic leader to take a position opposed to protecting the middle class.” Really? Then what does Moveon propose to do with the $833,000 recently raised for Sen Byrd? He voted for the bankruptcy bill as well.

Not only that, he voted to confirm Gale Norton and John Ashcroft. He voted against ending timber company subsides to build forest roads and has a 68% LCV rating. He’s voted against numerous abortion bills and only has a 43% rating from NARAL.. He voted for DOMA and only recently came around to voting yes to adding sexual orientation to hate crimes legislation.

Steny Hoyer, on the other hand, has a 100% NEA rating, 100% APHA rating, 100% NARAL rating and an 85% LCV rating, Steny Hoyer is responsible for the passage of the Americans With Disabilities Act and has been fighting the weakening of the law since Bush took office. He gets it right a lot of the time. Thanks to JohnKleeb’s research, we can see just how right he’s been.

I don’t understand why Byrd or Hoyer voted for this bankruptcy bill. I think it would be a great thing for Moveon to draw more attention to the bill. But if it is, as they say, “such an obvious Republican bill”, then why in the world don’t they hang it around the necks of the Republicans?

So what is Moveon’s problem? Maybe it has more to do with egos and the recent snubbing from some quarters. That couldn’t have gone down well after Moveon’s outlandish statement, “ Now it's our Party: we bought it, we own it, and we're going to take it back.”

Funny how a few months changes everything, because today they said:

“We’re not the party,” he said, when asked about charges that the ads were poorly timed, “We are going to take positions on issues, and we’re going to be true to our members and to America’s middle class families before we acknowledge any sort of notion of Democratic fealty.”

Is this all a tit for tat, with millions of American families left to suffer from the fallout? Does Moveon or the NDOL think that anybody is going to let Democrats run anything after watching this madcap spit ball fight? While Moveon wastes money on this Steny Hoyer fight, they could have launched an ad campaign in Nebraska to let those voters know what kind of scoundrel John Bolton is; so that Chuck Hagel would have been pressured to vote against him.

Wes Clark has it right; the American people will not trust us to defend this country if we won’t defend each other. And that goes for both sides of this ridiculous fight.

[kerrygoddess]

1. Oy!

When are Dems going to learn that we need to stop the bashing of each other and focus our energy on bashing the real enemy - The Republicans.

:eyes:

[emanymton]

2. Not Monolithic. Open Enough To Accept Difference f Opinion.

The GOP are not an 'enemy.' I don't agree with their 'I got mine; up yours' attitutde and I will not become like them to "win."

[sandnsea]

17. Attack the policies

Not the people. That goes for Moveon and NDOL. If your ideas are good, they'll stand on their own merits. I'm sick of this childish spitting match from both extremes of the Dem Party.

[MollyStark]

4. Many democrats don't earn and don't deserve their position.

They have carved out cushy spots for themselves where they proceed to suck up corporate money and do corporate bidding. Those democrats have to be challenged. If we don't, we will never get back to majority status. People will not bother to go to the polls for democrats who look and act like republicans.

[Mich Otter]

37. Even Democrats need to be kept in line.

Too many Democrats are bought-and-paid-for representatives of corporate America. The Democrats are only a little better than Republicans on issues such as; Human Rights, the environment, workers rights to organize and have safe work places, Etc.. the list is long.
We have had many human rights crimes take place while Democrats controlled our government. Be damn sure they need to be kept watch on!

[MollyStark]

3. Byrd is not a "Democratic leader" Hoyer is.

It is Hoyers job to rally the democrats to vote as a block on issues like this.
Byrd has earned loyalty from MO and many of us because of his votes on the Iraq war and other issues more important than this bill.

[sendero]

5. Exactly...

... to those who are mad at MoveOn I would ask "exactly what do you propose we do? Large numbers of our party regularly (we're not talking about one vote here folks, we've got Dems who vote with the Repugs on criticial issues all the time) vote against our interests."

I get so annoyed at the folks who say, yeah, but look at DemX's voting score - he voted for the environmnent X times and for education X times - what they don't mention is that many if not most of these votes are symbolic. The Reps vote as a bloc and defeat everything we want to do, and then we're 'sposed to be happy with a symbolic vote from a Dem.

Yeah, nobody like Dems attacking Dems. Maybe if so many Dems didn't vote like dumbass jackasses, the party would be a lot happier.

[Mass]

22. And Reid? How do you call him?

Byrd is ranking member of the appropriation committee. Even if this is not a leadership position per se, this is the most important ranking member position. This is clearly double standard.

[davidinalameda]

38. Byrd is the senior Democratic senator

he's a former majority and minority leader

he's the ranking Democrat on the Appopriation Committee

he's a leader

[flpoljunkie]

6. We expect more from Dems than stopping Dubya's Social Security "reform"

Dubya's agenda is clicking right along in Congress--

class action lawsuit "reform"...check
drilling in ANWR...check
bankruptcy "reform"...check
end of the dreaded "death tax"...check (passed in House, expected to pass in Senate)

next up...

Dubya's energy bill
medical malpractice "reform"

What are the Democrats saving themselves for?!?

I applaud MoveOn for pointing out that the Democratic whip marches in lockstop with the banks and credit card companies. The Democrats missed a major opportunity to distinguish themselves from the Rethugs when they enabled and voted for this one-sided bankrtupcy "reform" bill--which Dubya will be signing into law tomorrow!

Democrats need to fight for average working Americans who are preyed upon by banks and credit card companies with exorbitant late fees and usurious interest rates. Last year alone they raked in over $10 billion profit in late fees, This ought to be unacceptable to the "party of the people."

[Boo Boo]

7. MoveOn is

adrift. They started with a clear idea (to oppose the impeachment) and morphed into a PAC of sorts, still with a clear idea (to support progressive candidates), but over time they've begun to suffer what Z. Brzezinski calls "strategic incoherence." They have a leadership problem. That "we own the party" line sure as hell doesn't sound like it came out of the mouth of Wes or Joan. I get the feeling they're not really too involved anymore these days.

I think this Hoyer thing is a publicity stunt of sorts, one that has great potential to blow up in their face. I kinda expect that they're on the verge of doing the slow fade. After all, Dean is head of the DNC. How does MoveOn remain relevant when the Party is being run by Howard Dean? By attacking Deny Hoyer? MoveOn used to be a "moderate" organization, that was the founding principle. I'm not so sure I see that anymore.

In any case, leadership is extremely important to an organization, and I just don't see sound judgment in a lot of the things that they do. Incoherent is about the best word I can think of. Maybe they know what they're doin', but I sure don't.

Sorry MoveOn, I'm movin' on.

[Toots]

8. When did Byrd get made Whip? I missed that one.

When you are the Party Whip and you not only don't whip your Party but vote against core principles you need to hear about it. I'm sure you can find a bad vote by every single Congressman but a Whip is a horse of a different color.

[xchrom]

9. ok, hoyer is a democratic leader

responsible for leading democrats, hopefully, into opposing this admins assault on the middle and poorer classes.
his vote on the bankruptcy bill was a MAJOR failure in this regard.

there's no harm in calling him on the carpet for this -- silence simply let's beltway dems who get waaay to much money from corporate donors some idea that there's people paying attention to their actions.

this isn't about his ratings -- like it's a tv show here -- it's about an extraordinary bill that will do real damage to a people dems are REALLY supposed to care about. working families.

where's the fucking outrage from centrists regarding this?

lastly moveon does not now nor has it ever had limitless money -- like every other organization -- they pick their battles and they picked this one.
if you don't like them -- don't donate.

[cestpaspossible]

32. So is Harry Reid, and he also voted for it.

I used to give to MoveOn everytime they asked, but this has me thinking twice about it. There are so many better targets on the other side of the aisle.

[mikelgb]

10. Ed Schultz

was really laying into MoveOn yesterday and all I could think of is "what a hypocrite" He was going on and on about how we shouldn't eat our own... all while he is taking a nasty bite out of an important democratic organization. I agree with some here that our whip should be more principled and I applaud MoveOn for drawing attention to it. In all reality I MoveOn focused on Republicans they wouldn't get very far... why should a Republican listen to a bunch of Democrats who aren't going to vote for them no matter what. A Dem leader on the other hand better listen close to criticism from an influential organization like MoveOn...it is their base. Another thing Schultz said that rubbed me was "It's all about winning elections" FUCK THAT. If it were all about winning elections I'd be a Republican. It's about building a better world for everybody.

Dems need to loose the tendency to be lockstep loyalists. Look where that leads. In the end there are no parties there are people. If you like Hoyer and think it is bad or unfair what MoveOn is doing then by all means lets hear your defense of his actions. Otherwise STFU about MoveOn. It's the typical RW way if you don't like the message attack the messenger. I reject that paradigm. If you don't like the message oppose the message with facts and arguments, and certainly not with "Byrd did it too..." doesn't make it better, doesn't make it right.

[sandnsea]

16. The RW way

"if you don't like the message attack the messenger"

That's exactly what Moveon is doing. Oppose the bankruptcy bill, draw attention to it, that's what I said. Run ads in Maryland BEFORE the vote and tell people to contact Steny Hoyer and let him know you oppose this bill. Let voters know they need to call the media and complain about the lack of coverage and national debate on the bill. But after the fact, to attack the messenger is stupid.

It IS about winning elections. I don't get what the hell the point is if it's not to win elections in order to be able to make changes. And you know, the bankruptcy bill does protect low income workers. It doesn't apply to anybody below the median income for their area. So it really isn't like they sold out the poor anyway. I'm not saying it's a good bill, or even necessary in my estimation, but it isn't quite the attack on the poor that some are making it out to be.

[flpoljunkie]

20. Dems ought to stand up against the predatory practices of banks, credit

card companies who made over $10 billion profit in late fees alone in 2004 and are allowed by law to charge usurious interest rates to those least able to pay them. The bankruptcy bill did nothing to stop this predatory behavior by the banks and credit card companies.

If Democrats choose to stand with the banks and credit card companies against the average American, we must call them out and demand they act like Democrats and fight for the little guy.

[sandnsea]

21. I wish Moveon would

I've said more times than I can remember that the left, either of the Dem Party or Green, should create a strong loud voice for their agenda. Meaning single payer, anti-trade, govt created jobs, etc. Really get together and create a strong block that the country can't ignore. Nobody knows what the hell Moveon is talking about because most people don't even know what's in the bankruptcy bill. Most people won't have a problem with being required to make payment arrangements on credit card debt. In fact, if Moveon comes from a far left position in their attack on Steny Hoyer, they could actually help him. Steny stood up against deadbeats who are too stupid to read their credit card contracts? Good for him. There go those bleeding heart liberals again, not wanting anybody to be responsible for themselves. Childish Democrats, fighting in the sandbox.

I don't like it when the DLC attacks the left of the party and I don't like it when Moveon attacks the right of the party. Much better for each side to advocate, educate and build coalitions to move forward.

[flpoljunkie]

24. 73 Dems joining the Rethugs to vote for bankruptcy bill, not standing up

for average Americans. This is not a small thing.

The Democrats missed a major opportunity to distinguish themselves from Rethugs and instead, they chose to enable this one-sided legislation--that is, to stand with the banks and credit card companies and not with average Americans who are preyed upon of banks and credit card companies with their exorbitant late fees and usurious interest rates.

Where do they go from here? Having failed to stop anything on Dubya's to do list for this Congress. Next up, Dubya's energy bill and medical malpractice "reform."

What are the Democrats waiting for?

[Mass]

25. I agree

but where was MoveOn on the Senate vote, where the ratio of Democrats voting for the bill was higher. At the time, everybody was saying that you had to choose your fights and that this one was not that important.

Why do they go after Hoyer,rather than Reid or Byrd.

I am still waiting to see anybody on the left criticizing Reid, who has not only failed to stop anything, but also stood with Republicans on more than one occasion.

[sandnsea]

29. Give them a viable alternative

If you don't have policies that the people support, then why would the politicians support it. I don't want any Dem criticizing any Dem. I want Lieberman to talk to Kucinch and find common ground, then build a party platform and new vision for the country and the world.

[sandnsea]

28. What's Moveon waiting for?

We are not losing because Steny Hoyer voted for the bankruptcy bill.

We're losing because WE don't get that WE are not getting our message out there to explain to the VOTER why Steny Hoyer shouldn't have voted for the bankruptcy bill. We're losing the debate based on the issues. We know there's a culture war, but what we don't know is that there's also an economic policy war. We spent the last ten years trying to pretend people weren't really squirmish about abortion. We ignored the fact that people really do want jobs and aren't going to save the forests for the sake of the forests. We also ignored the fact that people DO think work is the way you lift yourself out of poverty. That people who don't have money should be responsible enough to not put the latest gadget on their credit card. And that people find the blame business routine old and tiresome. People want to make successes of their lives and business is the way they do that. So when Steny Hoyer and Harry Reid look at the WHOLE country and consider that many Democrats hold these same views, it's no wonder they support pro-business legislation. Attacking them is attacking a whole group of Democrats who haven't HEARD ANY OTHER MESSAGE.

Sure it would be helpful for Hoyer & Reid to help give them another message. But the proof is in the pudding and who people are voting for. They're already rejecting the perception of the Democratic Party a a left wing liberal socialist party. Why would Hoyer & Reid want to push that image further by supporting the only alternative that was presented, another version of class warfare?

We aren't going to win anything by sitting on the sidelines and randomly shooting at this one and that one, then turning around and asking them for help two weeks later. We've got to have a new economic vision that is centered on work and business and fair rewards and a fair playing field. We cannot just keep attacking everything with no solutions and no alternatives. We have to figure out how to create a message that promotes a new economic vision, how to make it a message that counters Republican propaganda, and how to build a Democratic majority coalition again, in the WHOLE country.

We don't have the time, money or energy to be shooting at Democrats and we wouldn't have had no matter who won. Would a 51% Kerry win really have changed the political climate and attitudes all across the country? No. We'd have been up against the exact same thing and would have needed to implement the exact same solutions.

[flpoljunkie]

39. We are losing because we cannot distinguish ourselves from the Rethugs.

It is apparently like Bill Clinton, with whom I do not always agree, that it is better to be strong than right. Well, we Democats cannot manage to be either.

As I have repeatedly said, if the Democrats cannot stand up for working Americans against the predatory practices of the banks and credit card companies, then they do not deserve to be called Democrats.

[DinahMoeHum]

11. I'm just curious: Does MoveOn have a viable electable candidate

who can replace Hoyer?

Otherwise they can just STFU, they're standing on a brick to kick a duck in the ass.


:kick:

[safi0]

12. I sort of agree with Schultz

What I don't agree with is that we should march lockstep with people with a D next to their name. But what I do agree with him is that there were better ways to go about doing this, Schultx suggested that Moveon should tell their members to send Hoyer's office tons of e-mails and give him tons of phone calls. Minaly I agree with Schultz that there were better ways to express our dissapointment with Hoyer on his vote on the bankruptcy bill than an ad campaign.

[tishaLA]

14. I believe MoveOn tried to work through back door channels

before they made this move. They are a savvy organization. They wouldn't do this unless they felt it was a political necessity.

The problem with Schultz yesterday is that he refused to hear why this was a bad bill; he accepted Hoyer's pseudo-excuse that there was lots of misinformation about the bill. Wrong. The bill is damn near criminal IMHO and Schultz took MoveOn's ad as a personal affront because Schultz believes Hoyer is a good guy who'd appeared on his show last week.

Schultz doesn't like the idea of speaking truth to Democratic power because he seems to believe that anyone with a D after his or her name gets a pass. Wrong. When you are the Whip and you are supposed to keep party loyalty, there are no passes just because the credit card companies gave you $300K. Sorry.

Now Ed can get back to pimping DLC hawk Hillary Clinton as the next nominee.

[tishaLA]

13. No and that's not their job

they *do* however expect the Democratic Whip, of all people, to help foster party loyalty instead of actively undermining it. Hoyer received $300K from credit card companies in his last election bid; I hardly think MoveOn contributers giving $100K to question the intelligence of taking that money and then voting for the corporate interests is a bad thing.

Grassroots Democrats should and must hold our party leaders accountable.

[EFerrari]

15. MoveOn's bigger hypocrisy

is posing as a grassroots organization.

They work strictly top down and have absolutely no interest in feedback.

Wes Boyd should go back to making screen savers.

[TayTay]

18. So, is MoveOn planning any ads against Sen. Reid (D-NV)

Because he is both a Dem leader (Minority leader of the US Senate) and he supported the Bankruptcy Bill. According to the logic of the preceeding posts, Sen. Reid should be taken to the wood shed by the MoveOn people and told in no uncertain terms that a large out-of-state organization of lefties doesn't like him or his vote and will whine about it on the radio. Geez, Sen. Reid coudn't even hold the Dems together through a cloture vote on this bill. Perhaps MoveOn will take him on. It's not like we need him or anything, right?

Is Moveon consistent about who they chose to attack or are they spineless as they claim their targets are. We shall see I guess.

[EFerrari]

19. I don't get their mail any more although I do post actions

at their forum. There's plenty of work to get done and plenty of people to work with who really are progressive.

[bvar22]

27. WOW

You are demanding MUCH MORE from a private organization than you are demanding from the Political Party that is supposed to represent YOU!

Logic?? Consistency??? Represent Labor and the Working Class???

[Larkspur]

23. MoveON is not a Democratic Party committee.

It is multi-party and mostly progressive.

[bvar22]

26. MoveOn is NOT attacking Democrats.

MoveOn IS attacking a group of corrupt politicians who have sold their vote to Rich Powerful Corporations.

Hoyer has included HIMSELF in this group by selling out 98% of his constituency and the philosophical base of the Democratic Party.

It is impossible to campaign as the Party of Labor and the Working Class when the Democratic Party Leadership is selling their votes to Big Business.


I support MoveOn's initiative to confront corruption in DC without regard to Party affiliation. WRONG is WRONG.

Those Democrats who have sold their votes to BIG MONEY do not represent me and are hurting the Party. They MUST be exposed and removed.

I will be sending a donation to MoveOn.

[cajones_II]

30. Dems blew it, SOMEONE should get their attention

That bill was voted with party lines and would have passed without 1 dem vote.

Why not vote NO as a bloc and have an automatic election issue?
I can only suspect the votes were traded for something else "better and more important" down the line, and that is putting a happy face on it.

[flpoljunkie]

40. Senate Democrats could have stopped the bankruptcy bill in its tracks.

It only takes 41 votes to stop a bill. They chose instead to stand with the banks and credit card companies and let this one-sided bill come to a vote in the Senate. The final vote was 74-25 with Hil not voting as Bill was having surgery that day.

They missed a great opportunity to distinguish themselves from Republicans; they chose to stand with the banks and credit card companies rather than with the middle class.

They thought we would not notice.

[KoKo]

31. Well, Byrd has done alot for us....I don't see much from Hoyer. If he

can't get Dems to hold the line on a total Democratic issue then what good is he? So...I give Byrd a pass he has inspired many of us to become active with his great oratory against the Iraq War and Patriot Act in the Senate and in his book.

What the hell has Hoyer done for us lately? :shrug: I was in favor of targeting him because he's the "Whip" and that's what DeLay has been so successful and doing for the Repugs holding the same position.

Look at the difference? We Dems can do it without all the corruption that Delay had but we had better people in the past than Hoyer. Caving on Bankruptcy bill betrayed Democratic Ideals for those of us who remember what Dems used to stand up for in the past.

Hoyer was wrong and MoveOn was correct. DLC didn't like it one bit though. :D

[Adelante]

33. I dunno

This is a Democrat with an excellent voting record in most areas we might consider important, such as health care, the environment, human rights, fair trade, education, pro-choice, etc. I don't understand why he voted for the bankruptcy bill, and I'm not happy about it, but it's about the one bad thing I know about him, except the mention above of a contribution from credit card companies in which I doubt he is unique.

I'm puzzled by MoveOn's vehemency and insistence on crucifying a man who has been a good Democrat for 30 years, when they could be crucifying some horrible Republican instead. They all voted for it. But mostly I think the responsible thing MoveOn could have done with all this money they're going to spend is to have joined the fight AGAINST the bankruptcy bill, which they did not, run ads against the issue, rather than wait until now to make their stand.

I agree we have to hold Dem leaders responsible, but this is way too public for my taste and I want no part of it. They could give the money straight to the GOP, because to me this is a political contribution to the other party.

I'm not giving them any more money, so that's okay, since they are not going to use it wisely. I know many will disagree, but this is poor strategy, poor timing, and poor management.

[xchrom]

34. republicans don't vote based on democratic criticisms

or liberal criticisms.
or progressive criticisms.

criticizing republicans on this issue is like criticizing a brick wall.

hoyer is the whip.
hoyer took 300k from cc companies.

hoyer made the point himself on this issue.

moveon doesn't have every dollar in the known universe to take people to task or form consensus or anything else on every issue.

they do a great job of recruiting and getting progressives to act on different issues -- and a great job mobilizing against bush.

it's an outside the beltway progressive group that does as good a job as any at getting a lot of info out there about progressive issues.

do i think they'll unseat hoyer -- extremely doubtful.
do i think they will make hoyer uncomfortable and think about his vote on the bankruptcy bill?
you bet.

and let's face it -- a repuke is not likely to criticize hoyer for voting for an issue he/she would support themselves.

[KoKo]

36. I see your point. I don't understand about "Bankruptcy Bill" but I kind

of feel they are making a statement that Dems need to get "touch" and stand together or they will "hang alone."

Tom Delay and Bill Frist managed to get their troops to vote "En Block" so why should we expect "Less" of our Dems.

I don't know quite where MoveOn. comes down on and I think their funding does come from sources other than what we give them who might have another agenda from our very "Grassroots/DU" approach.

I'm not giving them a pass...but none of us have been able to go against our sorry Dem Leadership. I haven't seen any "Actions agains Hoyer for not standing up against "yadda...yadda...yadda." So maybe "Move On. org" felt that this was a new front we needed to get working on and the "Blogs" just wouldn't be able to do it.

Even though I feel that DLC supports Ed Schultz...I still think he's really important to get the Limbaugh folks who don't like him but have no alternative..over to our side. So, I can't go along with DU Trashing of him.

I kind of am on the fence with both of them saying "I support you BOTH..go at "reform" from your different directions...but I'm happy to have the diversity" which the Repugs NEVER ALLOW!

:shrug: just the way this DU'ers see's it on the "fence," here.

[wyldwolf]

35. more than Byrd

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=273x23610

I like Byrd, too, but a lot of the Byrd fans here are such based on his rhetoric leading up to and during the Iraq war.

I'm not a one issue voter.

Caving on Bankruptcy bill betrayed Democratic Ideals

And Byrd voted for it, too.