Dean and Abortion - before you form an opinion

[SW FL Dem]

please view his speech. The entire speech is 21 minutes. The abortion part is approx 15 minutes into the speech. I was there in the room with 500 other Democrats.

http://www.naplesnews.com/npdn/news/article/0,2071,NPDN_14940_3710665,00.html

For the record, I have always considered myself to be pro-choice. I wasn't a Dean supporter during the primaries, but I was very impressed with him tonight and so were the other people at my table. We ranged in age from early 20s to late 80s.

[madfloridian]

1. And this is from someone who was at the speech tonight. Thanks.

I am getting very uneasy about these attacks on everything he does. Not because I am supporter. We are beyond that now. Looking at the wider picture, it worries me.

He is being undermined. Our area is being undermined by the formation of a DLC inspired group of Democrats. Sneakily.

I also think progressive groups are doing it in an overboard way to "keep him in line."

This is scary stuff.

[PA Mamma]

4. Can you clue me in ??

What are you talking about?
Forgive my ignorance but isn't the DLC "Republican-lite"
and aren't we the Progressives?
I am so confused here. It is not what I expected from reading about DU

[madfloridian]

5. Here is what I meant. He is caught between two ideologies.

It is said, and I believe it, that some larger corporate donors may be withholding support because Dean criticized the DLC during the campaign. In addition many go to Democratic forums to post a lot of negative things about him. In some cases it appears to be main goal. It is going on at other forums as well.

DU is a mixture of progressive, centrist, and people like me who don't take to labels well. I am a hybrid Democrat. I love Howard Dean, but I wrote that we will donate to Pennacchio because of his stance on choice. Can't vote, can donate.

Now to the groups on the left. Many do not think he is anti-war enough for them. This has been discussed many times. He is not opposed to our country defending itself honestly, but he saw Iraq for what it was. Some say he wavered, but he really did not. It was a dishonest invasion. One group is determined to make sure he says pull the troops out now. They are becoming very vocal.

These groups also do not think he will be liberal enough for them as the chair. They are organizing to go after him if he uses terms they don't like, if he acts the least bit moderating in some views.

What is forgotten in all this is that he is trying to be spokesperson for a whole party. What is sad in all this is that Democratic forums are being used in an irrational way to try to bring him down.

He is strongly for women's rights in every way. He worked with Planned Parenthood for 5 years or more. He is trying to change the language, which will take time. Many are too unwilling to give any time at all.

That is what I meant.

[scarletlib]

25. He is absolutely for women's rights. I saw him on C Span

at a forum for the New Hampshire primary. He gave a solid well reasoned response on the issue. As a physician he knows the importance of this issue in women's health care.

I think you are right in that disparate groups want to see him fail.

[Carolab]

2. That's probably because you didn't hear him speak during the primaries.

I always tell people who don't "get" Dean it's because they haven't heard him speak. All they heard were some sound bites and the "scream"...

[PA Mamma]

3. Thanks for posting that.

I actually wrote this in response to an earlier thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1732378
but this will do...

I read some comments from an article written about this that made his comments seem slightly different.
But I should know better to try and hear it from the horses mouth, and to always consider the source.
Now you should now that I don’t know much about Dean, my wake up call came sometime in October 2004, (boy was I in La-La-Land.) So it was nice to finally hear him talk. So take this a view from fresh eyes, unbiased.
Anyway, all I every saw was the “Scream” which I later learned was fabricated. I liked the Blue Chambray work shirt, and the strong way that he looked. I read his foreword in George LaKoff’s book and thought cool. I knew he was a Senator from Vermont (with a good but really not so Progressive record) who set the Grassroots on fire and so of course he was shut out by the party. That you poor Deaniacs “didn’t even have enough skin left to graph” as someone once told me.

So you Dean supporters should know the sting of being shunned by your party better than anyone. And I think that what’s most upsetting, not having your Rights defended in a very clear and plain way, Strongly !

I read, Going Nowhere - The DLC Sputters to a Halt:
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20050321&s=berman
And Now He Has the Power:
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20050307&s=nichols
In the Nation and get all excited.

So imagine my freaking surprise when Bob Casey Jr. is anointed to run for U.S. Senate in PA, in 2006 by the Freaking Party Elite in some back room deal !

And then to have Dean pop up using “their” language and thus Shooting himself in the foot. It really freaked me out.

Look, I got no problem with a politician who is personally opposed to abortion, but also realizes that Women must control their reproductive destinies. And that ain’t Casey.
So I start checking this Casey guy out, HUGE MOVE TO THE RIGHT !

But what really got me was someone saying that Dean said:
"We are going to embrace pro-life Democrats because pro-life Democrats care about kids after they're born, not just before they're born," Dean said recently in Mississippi as he tried to rekindle Democratic fires in the conservative South.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=120177&mesg_id=120177

And then this:
"Somebody's position on choice can't be a litmus test," Dean said yesterday. "I'm as pro-choice as they come, Bob Casey has been a tremendous friend of working people."

Some abortion-rights supporters in the party have protested the move to anoint Casey, but Dean said that the "progressive community" would quickly realize that Casey has the right positions on health care and other important issues and is a better choice than Santorum.

"It's unlikely, for example, that Bob Casey in the Senate would support these extreme nominees the President has for the courts," Dean said. "It's a qualitative improvement for the community that believes in a woman's right to choose."

more: http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/states/pe...

So I think the problem is with the Party Elite not Dean, and newspaper articles misrepresenting his words? Maybe.

And I think he’s on the right track. Hell, I would love to talk to that 27%, but you don’t crap on us to do it.

Brilliant the Tom Delay thing.

But there were a few things that I was not comfortable with in that Speech:

We do not Move to the Right. We Do not Use their Frames or Language.
We activate our base. We do this by loudly and proudly defending their rights.
We do not demonize abortion, and say how tragic and horrible it is.
We point out the TRUTH and say we can work together to make them happen less.
We need to respect those who might not morally approve of abortion personally, but educate them of the facts.

Seeing that video made me feel a little better, but I still feel like there is something fishy going on.

By the way, How was Dean on the War? And how about that perfect NRA rating ( which I feel is something that Dems should be focusing a lot more on instead of the “A” word, when it comes to the South, sometimes I suspect that there’s a lot of talk about the “unborn” but they’re voting from the NRA pamphlet. ) Where’s the reframing on that? But I digress.

Thank for any replies in advance.

[madfloridian]

6. See my reply above.

I like his stance on the war. I have no opinion on gun issues, except the assault weapons ban...and he spoke out about that. If he thinks states should set gun laws that is fine with me.

There is not much to say on it anymore. He is not going to make everyone happy, no politician, no chair ever has.

[PA Mamma]

7. I agree

Yeah, you can’t please them all.

But as an outsider looking in, I thought that you would like to know, that it's obvious that Dean is definitely the victim of bad press, (aren’t we all) and that his words surely seem to be getting twisted in all the articles that I’ve read, here in the past week.
So who is responsible for that? I'm wondering.

I just don’t like the direction that the party is going in. And Dean seems to be trying to bridge both factions of the split?
Remember, it's not the man, it’s the message. It’s not personal. We are all in this together.

[madfloridian]

9. That is the job he is supposed to do. I don't envy him.

To bridge the factions. I don't know if it will work.

Here is an example:
Since he was elected chair, the party has taken in on average a million a week. Yet that is way behind what the Republicans are doing. They have always been taking in more big money, but there is something else at play here.

Dean is trying to give the grassroots a voice. To do that we have to donate. I think a lot are, but more are already giving to people who may or may not run in 08. That could be given to the party, not to 3 year from now candidates.

Another factor, some large donors who heartily endorse the DLC have not been as willing to give the grassroots a voice. Thus, if they withhold funding to the party...not saying they are...saying if..then the party will suffer and Dean and the grassroots won't succeed.

And from what I can tell at the various forums, not real life, a lot of people are withholding donations on one-issue things. Like they won't give unless we come through on their issue...get the troops out, say pro-abortion...or something like that.

Thus you have a scenario doomed to fail, which unfortunately makes many at DU quite happy because they don't like Dean supporters. But since we aren't Dean supporters anymore as much as DNC supporters...that makes no real sense. But it is real.

This is the way it is. He is doing a good job. The DLC won't give up power to the grassroots. The grassroots are divided on single issues. The road to failure and the road to more corporate control.

[bklyncowgirl]

10. Good post.

This is coalition building time which means that people are going to have to give a little on their pet issues if progressives are going to put together a coalition that can win elections in the real world.

This means working with people who might disagree with you on some issues and keeping your eye on the big picture. Back when I was part of the anti-nuclear movement we had a ban on mentioning the word abortion because it was bound to start fights.

The big picture is the frightening prospect of the religious right taking over your personal life and big business driving you into servitude and eternal debt.

If that doesn't scare us into a little cooperation, we deserve to be ruled by the right.

[janx]

24. The media love to quote Dean out of context because

they know that there are some people who can't stand him and other people who admire him. Sensationalism sells.

And if the out-of-context quote doesn't work, they'll slip in some comments by others which effectively distort what he says. They'll quote people who misunderstand, even when the meaning is clear to most of us, just to make sure there's some controversy (even if there isn't).

Welcome to the American media. It's all about money.

[xxqqqzme]

8. this is, for all practical

purposes, the same speech delivered Saturday evening @ the CDP convention. Dean, rightly, is trying 2 change the language and reclaim ground surrendered 2 the rabid, rong thru inaction. He has an incredible uphill effort cuz, it appears as if, he is doing it all alone. No one, it seems, wants 2 get on the re-frame wagon. They only want 2 talk about how we should try it. Dean is doing it.

The democratic party has been defending our civil rights for a number of years. This is where Dean, and Lakoff, say the party must return - 2 our core values. Those values include responsibility and compassion. Our values must 'frame' our response 2 issues. (The word abortion needs 2 B jettisoned - it is loaded as is the term pro-life) Who better than DOCTOR Dean to talk about a woman's health issue as being confined 2 a conversation Btween a woman and her doctor. Dilation and curettage is a medical procedure. It does not require, need or demand legislation. The doctor and the woman assume the responsibility for the decision; compassion is extended 2 the woman having 2 make this difficult decision. BTW, the reason is not relevant.

It is a HEALTH ISSUE - not to be legislated.

I have 2 agree w/ madfloridian - I think the DLC will not relinquish power w/o some sort of death throe thrashing about. Hopefully they're thrashing will not wound the party but they have never given a rats ass about the base.....that is not where they wanted 2 raise the money. They wanted the big bucks from corporations. DLCers R dinos, closer 2 rethugs than dems. But that is just my impression.

[PA Mamma]

11. Agree Agree Agree ...

With both above posts !

So why then is Dean appearing to come out backing Casey Jr. in PA?
I just can't figure that out.

"The grassroots are divided on single issues. The road to failure and the road to more corporate control."

Yes, we must Unite!

But it's looking like we're not.

[NYCGirl]

12. He appears to be backing Casey Jr. in PA, since his job is to get

Democrats elected, and Casey Jr. has polled way ahead of Santorum. It's important to defeat Santorum.

[PA Mamma]

16. Yes it is !

And Casey won't pull it off. Because he won't activate our base.
And that's what's needed in this race.
This is not a winning strategy.
(And I seem to Remember some other misleading polls from 2004)

That's why I'm freaking out :crazy:

[shance]

13. I think it's called 'no other choice' for the Governor.

It's up to Pennsylvania voters now to make a scene and ruccus on how the DSCC and Pennsylvania Democratic leaders are pulling rank on you all as voters.

As they say, it just ain't right.

It's up to you gutsy Pennsylvanians. You can do it.

Make calls to your Democratic pals and to your state representatives and PARTY leaders and tell them to open up the primary gates and quit trying to manipulate the primary for Casey, who may be a great guy, but let him prove it in the primary.

That's not what elections are for. Not for someone to muscle their way in. Let Casey and any other Democratic primary candidate win fair and square.

[mrgorth]

14. POPULISM IS NOT DLC!!!

DLC = Economic-right, social-left
Populism (Casey) = Social-moderate, economic-left

DEAL WITH IT!

[PA Mamma]

15. Wait ...

Since when did Pro-War, Pro-Death Penalty, Anti-Gay, Anti-Women become socially Moderate ?

[mrgorth]

17. I tell you what

you find for me where Casey said he is against civil unions and against women (not abortion) and I'll send $100 to Chuck right now. Oh, I'm pro-death penalty so that doesn't bother me. In fact, I'd be happy to excecute any rapists, child abusers and molesters myself. Just line 'em up.

[PA Mamma]

18. I'll tell you what, You find me ...

Look, I don't want to fight with my fellow Duer’s here.
And I’m not here to beat up on Casey. I want to beat Santorum!
I just want to be honest.
I have posted many times where Casey has come in on issues. There is nothing on his web-site thus far to dispute any of it. Would anyone believe it if all of a sudden there was anyway?
While you may know Casey to be a great guy, Saying you would legislate women's Rights is Anti-Women. For the past, what 40 + years the Dem party establishment has picked the candidate and they have lost, right?
But there is so much more...
So I'll tell you what, you find me examples of where Casey is doing what is needed to win; coming out loudly, proudly, and strongly where we stand on all the issues. That will activate your base and affirm our fundamental principles. ( I know you said that you have taken a break on reading political books which is a shame because I think you would get it more it you hadn't.) But believe me when I say, that is what we have to do to win this race.

So you Show me where Casey has said this about The WAR:
“Iraq:
By choosing to go to war in Iraq in a reckless and deceptive manner, George Bush promoted the concepts of “nation-building” and liberation before the War on Terror. In doing so, this administration has opened a Pandora’s Box of dangers upon America and the world…” More here: : http://www.chuck2006.com/facts.asp

Show me where Casey has said this about Veterans:
“Veterans:
Real support for the troops comes with action, not empty slogans. The men and women who serve in our military do not do so in anticipation of getting rich; they sacrifice to protect the very liberties and freedoms this country was built upon…”
More here: http://www.chuck2006.com/facts.asp

Show me where Casey has said this about Women’s Rights:
“- Women's Rights:
Chuck strongly believes that promoting equal rights and opportunities for women is far more than sound public policy. It is a moral imperative to ensure that all Americans are treated fairly and equally under the law, and to ensure this, he supports passage of the Equal Rights Amendment...”

Show me where Casey has said this about:
“Equal Rights for Families - GLBT:
For too long we have been separated and divided by artificial lines of race, religion, class, gender and sexual orientation. The politics of division is a troubling proposition for a country founded upon the creed, “all men are created equal…”

Come on, You know that I could go on and on with: Health Care, Jobs, Campaign Finance Reform, Accountability, etc. But people can just go see for themselves.
That is what people want. That is what they are hungry for. That is what will beat Santorum !

By the way, you may want to check this out before you come out in full swing of the Death penalty:

http://www.aclu.org/DeathPenalty/DeathPenalty.cfm?ID=9312&c=62

Anyway Dr. P. has said that he would fully back Casey Jr.-- If he won the Primary -- so what may I ask do you have to lose by supporting someone who would really help us all?

[mrgorth]

21. I've met Chuck in a small intimate gathering

I like him. I have no problem with someone supporting him. The only thing I have a problem with here is the demonization of Casey including calling him DLC which is just plain wrong. DLC is anti-labor.

[shance]

22. Certainly there shouldn't be any 'demonization' of any candidate

however, the primaries should be an open and fair process where Democrats can vote for who they believe will best represent their beliefs and best represent their state.

[PA Mamma]

23. Please…

Please, Please, show me where I have “Demonized” Casey.

All I have done is simply state what he has said himself as a matter of public record.
You know that I could be saying a lot more on a personal level but I have refrained.
People usually do a good job themselves.

I have never once mentioned his manner of speaking, campaign skills or the whole Uni-brow thing, (which is tempting, but for deeper reasons than you are probably thinking.)

So let’s not fight each other. Let’s keep spreading the facts about our preferred candidates.

Kay?

[mrgorth]

27. Don't treat me like an idiot

You know very well what you are doing and I'm going to dog you as long as you do. I hope you keep preaching for Chuck because I like him. By slandering Casey you slander me.

[PA Mamma]

28. Well you are acting like an idiot !!!

When have I slandered Casey ??
Seriously.
When ?
I am doing what I feel is right in my heart -- nothing more, nothing less. I want my freaking country back! Why would you resist that and call it slander?

[bklyncowgirl]

19. Wow, That was some speech.

Dean laid it out very clearly and forcefully. I think he's doing a good job of pointing out the way to go.

Now if he can just learn how to herd cats, he might just get the Democrats to win.

[madfloridian]

20. Yep, herding cats is right.

He is caught in the middle of purists and corporatists and nowhere to go from there, I fear.

Oh, well, we can just give it all back to the DLC or we can donate enough to make our voices heard. From the latest reports, a million a week since he took office...still not enough.

20,000 Democrats giving 100 each would be 20 million in one week. And we don't have the guts to do it. We'd rather fight with each other and condemn him for opening his mouth crooked.

We won't win the battle until we get the power back from the corporate wing. To do that we have to do what Dean's dream was all along....get the money from the grassroots.

[Cha]

26. Really glad to hear Dean did such

a good job in Naples, Florida! Thanks for this SW Fl Dem!

[question everything]

29. I do not doubt Dean's commitment to freedom of choice

but I am bothered by his use of the term "pro-life." For us to use this term to describe opposition to abortion is, again, letting Karl Rove et al set the rules of the game.

I would like him to say something like: yes, we are pro-life, we are pro quality and dignity of life of children born to poverty, of children and adults denied access to decent health care, of workers who see their earning power being diminished each year. We are pro-life of dignity and of security - of jobs, health care and retirement.

And we are supporters of the right to privacy - in the doctor's office, at elementary school, in the bedroom and in hospices.

I don't know why Kerry and now Dean and I think even Clinton let the other side dictate the rules of the game. They call it pro-life, we call it reactionary anti-privacy.

(edited for typos)