Dean has the right idea about abortion...

[AmyStrange]

we are not pro abortion. We are for setting up society so there is no need for abortion. Unfortunately, many woman have no other choice but to abort especially with current economical conditions and welfare as it is and child care almost non existent and the republican choke hold on any other option than raise a child with little or no future except as an abuse case waiting to happen.

GO DEAN!!!

d

[Me.]

1. In Addition To That I Like

the idea of saying the dems are pro-life and the pugs are pro-birth.

[skoppa]

37. I feel that...

a lot of people who are making the arguments and debate about abortion are not the ones who should be. Many people listen to what they hear on TV from elites that have never been in a situation where abortion was a vaible, and maybe the correct, option. We need to hear from those people who find themselves in these situations.

[Warpy]

2. There will always be a need for safe, legal abortion

because the reaons women choose to abort are complex and go far beyond simple economics.

However, real life education, access to birth control and the morning after pill and an improved economy will drop the numbers down from what we're seeing under GOP mismanagement.

Bottom line: who do you want to decide, you or some politician?

[rodeodance]

6. right-there will always be a need-Dean to connect to culture of care

-use those words-which we do not have in this country (we have little time for those who are in need). We have a 'pull yourself by your bootstraps" mentality--that is all fine and good but it only goes so far.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

3. Gotta clean up the semantics

The rightwingnuts have co-opted the language, and we need to take it back and make it ours (and accurate).

We are pro-choice; they are anti-choice.

Everyone's pro-life, not just the anti-choice varmints.

And, incidentally, this is a big one that people overlook:

NO ONE IS PRO-ABORTION!

We're pro-choice - that's what we are.

[Erika]

4. Great post

I know of no Dem who is anti-life. We are pro-life in working for a more child friendly world, and a better educated public where abortion is rare. Dr. Dean is doing a great job!

[HuskiesHowls]

5. For me, its ALWAYS been about "Choice"

I'm not FOR abortion, but I AM against other people making decisions for me, and for the women in my life, and for others in general.

As I explained to my daughter many years ago, when she was totally against abortion: The Powers That Be want to tell a pregnant woman that she doesn't have the right to make a choice. Well, that's this years conquest. The following year, it may be people with red hair that don't get to make decisions (she has beautiful red hair!!!). It only took a few minutes of talk, to get her to change her mind!

This is something that I have felt we as Democrats have sorely lacked communicating....its about CHOICE, as opposed to NO Choice (aka back alley clothes hanger).

[AmyStrange]

7. WOW!!! thanx for all your replies...

they are so helpful,

d

[madfloridian]

8. Here are some quotes he made at a women's group in Seattle.

I posted some in another forum. I like what he is saying. He hates when people don't understand what he is saying and doing and will keep trying to explain. These notes were taken by a DFA person in attendance there.

SNIP..."When you talk about a woman’s right to make up her own mind, you are talking to every woman in America, not just the people who think they are pro-choice or pro-life or what ever it is. My strategy on “Choice” issues (I’m trying to ban that word from my vocabulary) is to refuse to let them make it an issue about the morality of abortion and make it about whether a woman has a right to make up her own mind. Cause we’ve got to have a ton of women on our side who may be uncomfortable with the issue of abortion. I think many Americans are uncomfortable with the issue of abortion. They don’t know what to do, they don’t really want it to be illegal, but they don’t want abortion on demand, which is what the Bush people say we’re about. We’ve got to make the debate about whether a woman has a right to make up her own mind, or whether that should be left to politicians.

If we can re-brand this issue in that debate, then I think that’s the end of the debate. It’s always going to be a very difficult issue because you’ve got - it’s a queasy issue for people, but we can win it if we say and make sure the debate’s about if a woman has a right to make up her own mind.

"Obviously, I’m a doctor, I don’t think its any of the governments business whatsoever. I think it should be left up to medical ethicist and patients, and whoever else the patient wants to bring in. But that’s not the prevailing view, it’s a very difficult issue for most Americans and my strategy to deal with it is to talk about a woman’s right – not “Choice” - to make up her own mind. Rights, we’re talking about rights here, not talking about abortion rights, we’re talking about a woman’s right to make up her own mind....."

He says the same women who might support the right of someone to have an abortion if needed....will recoil from the word "pro-choice."

I was glad to read this. I was concerned, but I feel he knows what he is doing on this.

[AmyStrange]

9. I saw those Madfloridian...

and I appreciate you posting them here.

You are the best,

d

[madfloridian]

10. Where the heck have you been? Haven't seen you around?

:hi:

[AmyStrange]

17. been working missing persons...

I'm crying because you noticed. You are my american idol here other than Dean,

d

[Gloria]

15. This is exactly right. Remember, way back when during the

Reagan assault on women's right to choose, Planned Parenthood ran a brilliant full-page ad in the NYT asking if "you want the gov. in your bedroom." It not only addressed women, but also MEN. It dealt with privacy, of course, but part of privacy was the right to make your own decisions for the good of the woman and her family....

Basically, it all boils down to AUTONOMY. Are women here in the US supposed to be treated like women in the third world? Because that's what it seems like...

Also, many years ago I wrote to NARAL about the use of the words "pro-choice." I've always hated that terminology, because it almost sounds like it trivializes the subject...Sort of like "choosing' a hamburger over a tuna fish sandwich.

I've always wished for a "weightier" word to use against "pro-life" which sounds so much....weightier.

[sandnsea]

29. Reproductive rights

Reproductive responsibility. If you want someone to be responsible for the consequences of their reproduction, then they have to be able to control all of it. And if we would advocate responsible reproduction, we could talk about prevention, economics, and a whole lot of other issues too. Including the fact that children do tend to do best within secure family relationships. We can't be afraid to say marriage is a good thing at the risk of offending a single mom.

[Gman]

11. Horse manure!

We are pro-choice. When tens upon tens of thousands of women don't show up anymore in DC for marches to uphold Roe v Wade, then maybe we ought to rethink things.

Being pro-choice means women having the ultimate decision. Not some Washington bureaucrat and not some theocratic fanatic.

The vast majority of the country is pro-choice and is alarmed when they think about reversing Roe v Wade.

I don't know why Dean even brought this up. I don't think it's negotiable.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

12. WTF? you're against the philosophy of rare, safe, and legal?

That's what Howard Dean is preaching. So you want common, dangerous, and illegal? Ummm dude...

[Gman]

16. I don't have a problem with rare, safe and legal

but I do have a huge problem with anyone saying a woman cannot have an abortion if she wants one which is where this will lead. This is a very slippery slope.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

18. Now you're using the gateway theory

It's like saying legalizing marijuana will lead to legalizing cocaine and heroin. HORSE MANURE!!!! First of all if you read what Dean said he said that women have the fundamental right to choose.

[AmyStrange]

13. you are wrong

it should be brought up and i am glad he did,

d

[madfloridian]

14. That is what he is saying. Make it about "choice".

A woman's right to choose what is best for her in all areas. He is not saying negotiate, just saying change the emphasis. Read my notes above. They are from a small group he met with.

[AmyStrange]

24. as always well said mad...

spot on my friend,

d

[bklyncowgirl]

30. Rather than about "choice" make it about Rights.

I've never like the term "Pro-Choice". It's always sounded to me a little too flippant for the subject and makes having an abortion rather like deciding to wear green instead of blue.

I do agree with the idea that any citizen has a right to make medical decisions for themselves without interference from the Government.

This is where the battle lines should be drawn. You don't have to like abortion but it should be legal.

[welshTerrier2]

19. Dean said: ""pro-life Democrats" should be encouraged to run for office"

fyi, we had an earlier thread on this today at: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1728652

Dean's statements on "freedom of choice" apparently go well beyond the "framing" issues and language issues described in the base post ... according to the following article that references a USA Today interview with Dean, Dean thinks "pro-life Democrats should be encouraged to run for office" ... is Dean saying the Democratic Party should be willing to endorse candidates who would deny woman the freedom of choice? it sure sounds that way to me ... is this OK with anyone here ?????

source: http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/state/20050417-9999-1n17dean.html

Patt, an activist in the North County Coalition for Peace and Justice, was angered by an article in USA Today in which Dean said "pro-life Democrats" should be encouraged to run for office.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

20. first of all are you against having a big tent

second of all harry reid is pro-life but he doesn't force that on anybody else. In fact, he's leading the charge against the Anti-choice judges. Third of all pro-life doesn't mean anti-choice.

[AmyStrange]

23. well said...

thank you,

d

[welshTerrier2]

25. pro-life doesn't mean pro-choice either ...

well, let me start by answering your question as honestly as i can ... i'm frankly not sure how to answer your question about a "big tent" ... do i think we should tolerate a wide spectrum of opinion in the Party to achieve some degree of political viability? sure ... should we have limits on the degree of compromise we are willing to accept? definitely ... does a "big tent" sometimes send a very fuzzy message to voters about the depth of our commitment to our beliefs? i'm afraid it does ... so, big tent? OK ... big tent of unlimited size? nope ...

now, about your statement: "pro-life doesn't mean anti-choice" ... i guess i'll have to ask for your definition of these terms ... why couldn't Dean have encouraged "pro choice people to run for office regardless of their PERSONAL views on abortion"? but that's not what he said ... what, then, does "pro life" even mean? many current Democrats oppose abortion personally but strongly support a woman's right to choose ... these Democrats may or may not label themselves pro-life but the ones i'm familiar with do label themselves pro-choice ... For Dean to use pro-life without the clarifying pro-choice sends the wrong message ... it seems to me you're being a bit disingenuous when you say "pro-life doesn't mean anti-choice" ... pro-life may not mean anti-choice but it certainly doesn't mean pro-choice either ...

i have no problem whatsoever continuing to endorse candidates who don't personally believe in abortion but would fight like hell to ensure that the right to have one is protected ... it just seems to me Dean's "big tent" statement went much further than you've acknowledged ...

go ahead and convince me i've misunderstood him ... i hope i have because otherwise i find his remark deeply troubling ...

[Kool Kitty]

26. You're right-this needs clarification.

I would have a really hard time voting for a candidate that was anti-choice.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

32. But that's like saying you won't vote for a christian

because of his religious beliefs. As long as a person doesn't force their own religion upon anybody else it's fine. Like I said look at Harry Reid.

[welshTerrier2]

33. the point you've continued to dodge is ...

that the Democratic Party should NOT encourage or support anyone to run for office who is not "PRO CHOICE" ... do you agree or disagree with that statement???

as i said, in the current political climate, given the REALITY that those who are ANTI-ABORTION and ANTI-CHOICE love to call themselves PRO-LIFE, inviting PRO-LIFE candidates to run for office without adding the requirement that they also must be PRO-CHOICE is unacceptable ...

it sends a message that the Democratic Party is willing to endorse candidates covering the whole spectrum (i.e. big tent) on the "abortion" issue ... if that wasn't Dr. Dean's intent in making the statement he made, and neither you nor I can be sure of his intent because his statement was vague (at least as described in the link), i strongly suggest he clarify his meaning ...

[Crowdance]

34. Wrong. Reid has continuously forced his anti-choice views on

everyone else. He's consistently voted for laws that deny women the right to make their own medical decisions. He has consistently voted to deny women their human rights. Open your eyes and take a look at what you are supporting:
http://www.issues2000.org/Social/Harry_Reid_Abortion.htm

[murdoch]

21. polls

Polls show support for abortion is lowest when the reason is because the child would be born into poverty. Which I think says everything there is to be said about abortion, poverty, hegemony, state involvement and whatnot.

Marx talked about the reproduction of labor - for the idle class, the workers need to produce a new generation just as the slave masters bred a new generation of slaves. Wage workers have no control over production, why should they control their own production?

[AmyStrange]

22. good input...

and welcome to the DU albeit a late welcome,

d

[Guaranteed]

27. I'm pretty damned disappointed with what he's done here.

I not only feel kind of betrayed, but I think he's made a very serious political mistake.

[CAMANY]

28. Great way to lose votes

Pro-coat hangers don't get my vote. No negotiation on that one.

More pro-coat hanger dems running = more green votes from me.

I have to wonder if Dean's been paid off with this kind of shit.

[Sparkly]

36. I don't see "pro-coat hanger"

What's "pro-coat hanger" here? He's saying being for choice doesn't mean we all loooove abortions or are "for" them, any more than people are "for" hysterectomies; likewise, I don't think that means anybody's "pro-coat hanger," either.

Nobody LIKES abortions -- they're no picnic. The rightwing has framed things to put us in a position of defending abortions as happy events, being "pro-abortion" rather than "pro-CHOICE."

That's my take on it anyway, fwiw.

[markus]

31. Same thing I said in the "F---ed Up" thread: wrong?

Wrong is an awfully strong word. I see that one phrase "abortion is wrong" being wielded as a club to beat the Dems into an anti-choice position in the South and Midwest.

Dean has to be carefull of his DLC roots.

[Sparkly]

35. "abortion is wrong"

Do you have a link to a quote with that phrase?

[skoppa]

38. I think that...

a lot of people who are making the arguments and debate about abortion are not the ones who should be. Many people listen to what they hear on TV from elites that have never been in a situation where abortion was a vaible, and maybe the correct, option. We need to hear from those people who find themselves in these situations.

[Tansy_Gold]

39. I'm looking for an email address for Dean

I have a response written on this issue that I want to send to him.

I won't post it here.

[MAlibdem]

40. I agree wholly, it's about supporting women

No woman should be forced to have an abortion for financial reasons. We need to support women with medical coverage and automatic paid maternity leave and subsidized child care and bigger child deductions for households making under $40000.

We need to make this about supporting the women and helping them bring Americans into the world. About making sure that every American child has the ability to succeed and be healthy and be loved and cherished.

But abortion must be legal. Once you remove the financial problem, however, abortion rates will drop. We will win abortion on this by rejecting their terms of the debate.