Why is Harry Reid pushing the neocon agenda?

[NVMojo]

Reid, speaking on a telephone conference call shortly after leaving Baghdad, said the United States has “gotten smarter” about training Iraqi security forces.

“I came away with the feeling that we cannot leave Iraq,” said Reid, one of seven Senate Democrats and Republicans on a weeklong trip through the Middle East and several countries near the troubled region. “If we do, the terrorists will have won.”


http://www.rgj.com/news/stories/html/2005/03/22/95277.php?sps=rgj.com&sch=LocalNews&sp1=rgj&sp2=News&sp3=Local+News&sp5=RGJ.com&sp6=news&sp7=local_news

[sniffa]

1. because

he's obviousLy a repubLican Lite dem.

:eyes:

[Mass]

2. Why are you surprised?

While Reid has a lot of good aspects, he is definitively not a progressive Democrat.

I am not surprised to find him close to Clinton and Biden on these subjects.

I am a lot more interested by what Boxer has to say when she comes back.

[katinmn]

22. Yes, I will have more confidence in what Sen. Boxer says, too

She is one of the few I trust.

[Pepperbelly]

3. Have you considered that maybe ...

after viewing first hand what is happening in Iraq, he actually came to that conclusion because of the circumstances he observed?

That is a pretty reasonable thing to consider, I think.

[NVMojo]

4. hmmm, I will take your opinion into consideration when the draft starts

...and my three sons go over there and Reid's keep their lucrative jobs.

[Pepperbelly]

7. my son is already in the service so ...

I think your innuendo not on point. I already have plenty of dog in this fight.

[salin]

14. It could be the "we broke it" philosophy

even among die hard anti war folks (pre invasion) I have seen a great deal of difference of opinion on what to do now - esp in light of the chaos that has been created at OUR doing. I don't think that the difference of views indicates a neocon belief system - as much as trying to grapple with how best to clean up the ugly mess created by bushco.

[msongs]

17. ummm your 3 sons have a choice not to go....................

like the political hacks have said, if drafted i will not accept, if nominated I will not run, if elected I will not serve.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[katinmn]

5. NOOOOOOOOO!!!

He only saw what they allowed him to see, talked with who they wanted him to talk with.

Fuck. If this keeps up we'll never get out of there.

[Pepperbelly]

8. do you think ...

him stupid?

I certainly do not. From all indications, he is extremely bright. Do you not believe that a reasonably bright person (and I suspect he is far more than reasonably bright) would be able to tell stagecraft by non-stagecraft-pros from reality?

[TheFarseer]

6. I think alot of people feel that way

alot of dems too. Yes the situation is bad, but the whole country would implode if we left. Say what you want, but we are the only stabilizing influence in the country right now. I'm not a big Reid fan, but I think his assessment is largely correct on this issue. The real questions is should we have gone in in the first place and the answer is NO.

[Q]

9. This is getting out of hand...

Everyone knows this war is a fraud and being fought for the benefit of corporations and the political careers of Reid and many others.

Of course they can't say we should leave now. That would expose the fact that both parties have been lying to the American people all along.

And can anyone honestly say the 'terrorists' haven't already won? One need only look at the state of our union and politicians on both sides pushing illegal wars for the answer to this question.

Reid is as phony as the Neocons.

[Al-CIAda]

11. Another great post by Q. -eom

[TheFarseer]

15. I think war on terror is still hanging in the balance

If we would not have invaded Iraq, if we would have stayed in Afghanistan and captured Osama bin Laden and cleaned out the remaining terrorist cells then we could have claimed victory and probably been as safe as we will ever be from terror. Now, I honestly don't know how this will turn out. Best case senario we have another Saudi Arabia, worst case we have a pre-9/11 Afghanistan. Had we left it at helping overthrow the Taliban we would also still have the "moral highground" and the respect of the world community. It's extremely unfortunate that that did not happen.

Iraq was not, nor did it need to become part of the war on terror. But now we have made it so and we have to live with that.

[iwantmycountryback]

23. Gee, maybe he's just remarking on what he saw

Some people on this board are utterly disgraceful. Anyone who doesn't follow their strict rules of adherence is a neo-con traitor. These people need to get over themselves. Leaving now would make the country worse than it was before we invaded.

[applegrove]

10. We cannot leave Iraq. That would be criminal. Women would loose

all their rights and the war would just become bigger as the Islamists tried to start the next insurgency next door. Bush walked into a trap. We all have to live with it. Even Canada is sending people to help train Iraqi soldiers. And Canada said no to War in Iraq. Reid speaks the truth. Being right about Bush being a monster does not give us the right to wish horror on 10 Million Women (like what happened to the women of Afghanistan..they lost the right to go to school). We either finish the job monekyface started or we have to stay in the ME forever. If Bush looses do you think Iran will be making concessions on nuclear bombs?



We have no choice. Bush got us into this mess to set a precedent. He is a lying asshole. But you have to win. If we win, we win. Bush was still wrong on the reasons for war so he can never take credit for making the right decision. Nobody will let him.

As soon as peace comes. ... we liberals can look forward to the Saddam Hussein trials where many victims will have been murdered, some isolated & coerced and some victims of wrong war. Others will have been gassed by gases exported by Britain/USA and whose use was promoted by Rumsfield. The Iraqi people will all talk of the propaganda and coercion they lived under. It will all ring about 100 million bells in American hearts cause they have had to deal with that too. Look forward to the document blackouts. The battle of wits between Saddam and Rumsfield as Saddam is going to blab all secrets about his days as their boy.

Come on! Look forward to it. If the USA wins this War... and all.. there may not have to be a draft. If USA looses..there will be a draft in every Western Nation. Loosing the ME to insurgents is not like loosing Vietnam. We don't want that.

Bush lied about the war. History will record how horrible the war was run for 2 years. We have nothing to fear now..except that the USA looses.

[Q]

12. Thanks for shoveling the New Dem and Neocon propaganda...

...and NO ONE has suggested just leaving Iraq without a plan to 'keep the peace'. But of course that's not what the conservatives on the left and right want to debate. They would rather whip people into a nationalistic frenzy with phrases like the 'terrorists will win' if we put an end to the killing fields in Iraq and other places.

It's sad to see Democrats using the same tactics of fearmongering and outright lies to keep the rank and file believing that anything good can come from the illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq.

But then...there isn't much difference between the Dems and GOP when it comes to fooling the people into believing that perpetual, unprovoked war is the only way to fight the threat of faceless, nameless terrorism.

Bush lied this nation into war. But Democrats are helping to keep that lie from being exposed.

[applegrove]

19. You contradict yourself. There is only one realistic plan to leave

and that is train the hell out of Iraqis to be their own army. Then US can leave and insurgents will loose all sorts of support throughout the middlle east if they start killiing Iraqis. That is all I am saying. This is the plan to leave.

What Bush did with his lies will be obvious once there is peace. No peace until Iraqi army is trained and can take a few car bombs while the Americans are gone.

We agree on everything so don't tell me I'm being a neocon. Saddam Hussein was a monster 20 years before this war started. I was alive, liberal and watching the news. He was the republicans man in ME. His trial will be an embarrassment.

Stop calling me names when I believe in the same things you do.

Specifically what am I saying that is neocon bullshit? Because sometimes they use elements of the truth in their lies. And you better learn the difference. No need for USA to come up with Propaganda on Saddam Hussein. He was under the gun for a decade remember? USA forgot to take him out at the end of the Gulf WAr (he was their man). You gotta be able to distinguish history and well accepted facts from the monsters that are the Bush WH and fucked over the USA with their exploitation of a national tradgedy.

Saddam was a creap in 1982. Everyone over the age of 30 knows it. We all saw the gassing of those Kurdish villagers on TV. The Bush crime is that knowing that, they purposely choose to forgo the use of Human Rights as a reason to bomb Iraq so that they could make a new precedent with pre-emptive (non human rights oriented) war. That is the lie. If they had simply said Human Rights then CAnada would have followed them in. They had 20 years of evidence of that and neocons and Bush used WMD (fear of their weapons and that they may attack me in the future.. sometine) as the reason. That was the lie. They wanted to create that precedent and went looking for information to match. Can you tell the difference between the two? At least a million people died under Saddam. He was a monster. get on that donckey cause will be able to ride the "what is a psychopath" truth that will be told a Saddam Hussein's trial right up Bushes ASS (because he and his kind are too). Iraqis may win their freedom from insurgents and Americans. And we should all clap. Bush will not get credit for doing the right thing because he did it to create a precedent and that was a fuck up? That is what they will write.

Relax and let go. We want this war to be over. Enough already. If you insist in hating Bush so much that you have one answer for anything he does or says.. he will dance you right outside your own arguments. Don't loose yourself. We don't want more Iraqis hurt. They got rid of the Republican planted strongman - lets put him on trial and explain what his friend Rumsfield had to say when they met and kissed in 1985. Hussein is a psychopath and he will extract pounds and pounds of flesh from the Republican hawks who brought him down.

I can't wait for the trial.

[katinmn]

13. We already lost the war in Iraq.

The Iraqis want to be led by religious leaders. The election didn't turn out the way Bush wanted and so now we have to eliminate those the Iraqis chose to lead them.

And don't buy the bs about women's rights.

Iraqi women were protesting earlier this month and demanded the withdrawal of coalition troops.

Again -- who are you going to believe?

[applegrove]

25. I agree Bush & his ilk lost the peace. I agree they didn't get

the government they want. But a Shiite majority is a whole lot less Islamofundamentalist as the Taliban and Sunni model is. Shiite fundies are like in Iran. They are fundies but the women do not wear beekeeper outfits. The fundies did not take all the power in Iraq, just the Shiites did (who are secular and religious). If the insurgents win...they are fundamentalist Islamist Sunnis and their plan is to start a revolution all over the Arab world and take control of the whole region. Iran has Shiites. If the Sunni insurrections beats the current Iraqis..the Iranian Shiites are going to hold onto the bomb for dear life (Iranians are not even Arabs).

The point is that we cannot leave until there is a strong army in Iraq. That is just a fact.

Sunni Arab Islamist fundamentalist are people like bin Laden. You can bet that the Baathists are getting support and money from bin Laden (even though they are secular Sunnis).

Saddam Hussein has been a well known monster for 30 years.

Bush and the WH are propagandaists and sociopaths. They use a little bit of the truth in their propaganda. Saddam Hussein was bad.

I am not neocon to know these facts are true.

[welshTerrier2]

16. is this what you mean by "winning" in Iraq ???

i'm glad you care about the Iraqi people but what the US is doing in Iraq will not help the Iraqis ...

source: http://dahrjamailiraq.com/weblog/archives/dispatches/000196.php

“One story is of a young girl who is 16 years old,” he says of one of the testimonies he video taped recently, “She stayed for three days with the bodies of her family who were killed in their home. When the soldiers entered she was in her home with her father, mother, 12 year-old brother and two sisters. She watched the soldiers enter and shoot her mother and father directly, without saying anything.”

The girl managed to hide behind the refrigerator with her brother and witnessed the war crimes first-hand.

“They beat her two sisters, then shot them in the head,” he said. After this her brother was enraged and ran at the soldiers while shouting at them, so they shot him dead.

“She continued hiding after the soldiers left and stayed with her sisters because they were bleeding, but still alive. She was too afraid to call for help because she feared the soldiers would come back and kill her as well. She stayed for three days, with no water and no food. Eventually one of the American snipers saw her and took her to the hospital,” he added before reminding me again that he had all of her testimony documented on film.

[msongs]

18. and you have PROOF that this girl's claims are true???

anyone can say anything. spreading rumours is not proof.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[welshTerrier2]

20. Jamail's credibility

first of all, i have great confidence in Jamail ... he's one of the few reporters in Iraq who is not "embedded" ... i think "embedded" means that most journalists are "in bed" with the neo-con agenda ...

secondly, i provided a link to his website ... there are tons of photos there to document the horrors being done by the US ... here's another excerpt from his website that vouches for his credentials:

His dispatches were quickly recognized as an important media resource and he is now writing for the Inter Press Service, The NewStandard and many other outlets. His reports have also been published with The Nation, The Sunday Herald and Islam Online, to name just a few. Dahr's dispatches and hard news stories have been translated into Polish, German, Dutch, Spanish, Japanese, Portuguese, Indonesian, French, Chinese and Arabic. On the radio, Dahr is a special correspondent for Flashpoints and reports for the BBC, Democracy Now!, and numerous other stations around the globe.

you may consider what he reports as rumours; The Nation, the BBC and many others do not ...

even US media reported that the first US action taken in the siege of Fallujah was to destroy a hospital ... flattened it to the ground ... wouldn't want any of those sick or injured people getting well or testifying about US atrocities ... and Fallujah itself basically no longer exists ... it's a big pile of rubble ...

and of course, the kind of abuses alleged in the article are very consistent with the mentality of those perpetrating war crimes in Abu Ghraib prison ... it's interesting you find this account so hard to believe ...

just keep watching MSNBC or CNN ... they'll tell you the "real" story ... no point giving any credibility to independent journalists who are seeing the war first hand ...

[Boo Boo]

21. I think it's unrealistic in any case

to expect the Dem leader of Senate to call for withdrawal at this point. The opinion of most National Security types in DC is that bailing out and leaving Iraq to a Civil War would be a disaster. I think there is a lot of merit to that. There were a lot of good reasons not to go barging into Iraq; now were faced with trying to prevent those scenarios from playing out.

OTOH, there's truth to the post above about stage managed visits by members of Congress---a staple of the Vietnam era, the practice surely continues. Sen. Reid saw, for all intents, nothing on his trip. He met with military leaders, who told him what they've been told to tell him. Sounds like maybe he saw some training of Iraqis as well. It's not like the guy took a tour of Iraq; the place is dangerous as hell.

The thing I don't appreciate about his comment is the "terrorists will have won" meme. Forget The Terrorists(tm). This is about the United States losing---bigtime. It's about Nation States, not a bunch of raggedy terrorists. We didn't go in there because of terrorism, and it's certainly not the reason we're staying.

[EFerrari]

24. What an idiot. Anyone know if he's connected to Defense

contracts?