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Personally I'm more upset with the Amtrak vote than I am the ANWR vote

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dolstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 05:46 PM
Original message
Personally I'm more upset with the Amtrak vote than I am the ANWR vote
While I don't think drilling in ANWR is going to make America any less dependent on foreign oil, and I'd like to know that there is at least one spot in America that hasn't been despoiled in our insatiable quest for natural resources, the fact is I was never actually gong to visit the ANWR. Today's vote affects me only in an abstract sense.

But the vote against boosting Amtrak funding affects me more directly. Sure, it's likely that the Northeast corridor will survive, but you can pretty much forget about anything even remotely resembling a NATIONAL rail system. It drives me crazy that Republicans insist that the rail system operate without subsidies when (a) every other national rail system around the world is heavily subsidized and (b) our own highway and air transportation systems receive far larger subsidies than our rail network.
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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
1. Well, shit
I love Amtrak. I was planning to take it from Emeryville to Reno this July. I hope it's still running. Even if I have to pay more.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
2. They go together
No rail system, continued dependence on oil. It all goes together. ANWR was never just about the pretty animals to me. It was about how much of the world are we going to continue to destroy because we won't change our transportation policy.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Absolutely. They go hand in hand.
n/t
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Harry S Truman Donating Member (300 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #3
17. What a travesty!
How is it that in a $250-billion-plus transportation budget they can't find $1.4 billion to keep Amtrak going? Amazing. Amtrak is a bargain and these bastards in office are so damned stupid they can't see it.

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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. The problem is that the money isn't going into their pockets
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Goldmund Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
4. "Today's vote affects me only in an abstract sense."
Edited on Wed Mar-16-05 05:50 PM by Goldmund
Not true. It's a continuing shifting of legislative principles, and they are making it clear that environmental concerns are de-facto secondary to corporate interests.

Besides, it's another piece of the global-environment puzzle, which affects all of us.
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
5. You can add canals, river locks and dams to your list.
Edited on Wed Mar-16-05 06:17 PM by HereSince1628
The barge industry benefits mightily by the activity of the Corps of Engineers. That 9 ft channel isn't self maintained

I'm all for the rolling stock to be private, but at least some of the interstate railroad rights of way are as critical as the national defense highway system.



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LiberalEsto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
6. I'll be the rails had plenty of government subsidies
back when business needed trains to transport goods.

Once they finish using a tool such as the national system of railroads, it gets thrown on the scrap heap, and the hell with us little people.
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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. And all those red staters who voted for The Chimpster-in-Chief can forget
about Amtrak being available in their states. Bush/Cheney got your votes. Now they are done with you. Three votes in a row to benefit their corporate paymasters-- virtually limiting class action lawsuits to federal courts, a one-sided bankruptcy bill that benefits--guess who, banks and credit card companies, and now for their oil buddies--Exxon Mobil--paving the way top drilling in ANWR--the first stop, not the last fellow Floridians!

Flim-flam Dubya scores again. Americans from both red and blue states loses--big time!
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ET Awful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
7. One thing you forgot to mention . . .
commuter rail service in many areas shares Amtrak's rail system. So, this will also have the effect of either (a) decreasing commuter rail service and availability, or (b) increasing local spending by states and cities to cover the maintenance that is no longer available via federal funds.

This basically results in another of the tax increases brought about by tax reductions.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
8. It's one of those issues if Americans knew more about, they'd realize
how much our environment and our country is being so heavily damaged by oil interests. Its once again going against our own self interest at large.

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LiberalEsto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Ah, but people would rather hear about the Jackson trial
and all the other courtroom sleaze and drama. At least that's what our corporate media feeds us.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. I give the American people more credit, the white straight males that own
the networks, well we should give them credit for eroding the quality of the American intellect.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
11. I'm bummed out about both
But especially the Amtrak vote, because the Republicans are headed in exactly the wrong direction on non-automotive transportation.

France, Germany, and Japan all have high-speed intercity rail, and China, South Korea, and Taiwan are building them. Taipei and Bangkok have built urban rail lines. Beijing, Kyoto, Nagoya, and Sapporo have built subways in recent years.

Meanwhile, Minnesota's Republican-dominated legislature refuses to give Twin Cities transit a dedicated funding source and is talking about cutting service and raising fares.

No wonder this country is in decline.
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Bryn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
12. I am with you on this
I grew up riding on trains. My great-grandfather, grandfather and Dad all worked for railroad, were conductors. I prefer riding on the train to flying, train's much more comfortable/enjoyable than flying in a cramped seat!! It's driving me crazy that the vote is against boosting Amtrak funding, also. :(
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slor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. I went to Texas by train...
it was great and I met some cool people, drank and played chess with some cool old folk. These fools are destroying our country, and it makes me sick.
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demosincebirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
14. Passenger trains are part of our heritage.
I use Antrak often
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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
15. Same here
Cutting off Amtrak is just dumb in this brave new world.
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jrieth50 Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Floggin coming...
I'm gonna get hurt for this I'm sure. But I have to say Amtrak is one of the most poorly run operations in recent memory, and aside from the necessity of keeping open commuter rail lines, I won't shed a tear.

Let me explain though that I DO think rail service is absolutely vital to this country. And I definitely believe that our government needs to get serious about instituting some major transportation overhauls to the system, including massively expanding rail transport.

That may seem like contradictions, but Amtrak just is not the entity that's going to get it done. They need to start accepting proposals from others who can provide serious rail options for our country.
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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. We don't disagree
No floggin' here.

We need a national rail system.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #18
27. Amtrak didn't do badly for an entity that got less funding
than the highways of an average state.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 09:56 PM
Response to Original message
20. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Posts like yours
Make me wonder what I've given up the last 2 years of my life for.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. And the world revolves around you
It's a way to live, not a very civilized way to live, but it's a way.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Both go together
Both show that the GOP has no intention to reduce our dependence on oil and that they are not even honest in their motives. This is not a surprise.

The two votes are part of the much larger question of defining a meaningful energy policy, that will preserve both our environment and our future.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #22
28. Sorry, many of us Democrats are a bit testy today.
ANWR is not meant to be a playground for anybody, even "high ranking Sierra Club members."

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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
23. You know what I wonder? Who will Snow's company CSX stick it to
if Amtrak isn't funded...this has been in the works a long time though. CATO wrote a position paper on dissolving Amtrak a few years back.

But check this out:

ailroad Giant CSX Seeks Huge Government Bailout In Amtrak Bill On House Floor This Week
Taxpayers Would Foot Bill for Damages Caused by Train Wrecks Due to Corporate Negligence & Wrongdoing

October 21, 1997

WASHINGTON (DC) -- This week the U.S. House of Representatives will consider legislation -- the Amtrak Reauthorization bill (H.R. 2247) -- that would force American taxpayers to pay for the reckless misconduct of multi-billion dollar railroad companies such as CSX Transportation (CSX). The legislation would force Amtrak and the taxpayers who fund it to bailout freight carriers by footing the bill for damages assessed in lawsuits against them resulting from train wrecks, injuries and deaths. Even outrageous private freight carrier misconduct that results in Amtrak train accidents would be fully protected. Railroad giants such as CSX, which has been involved in five major accidents in the past 18 months that have killed or seriously injured scores of passengers, would be fully insulated from being held financially accountable for their wrongdoing.

One recent case illustrates the outrageousness of this taxpayer bailout. This past July, a Florida jury imposed a $50 million punitive damage award against CSX for misconduct that led to a 1991 derailment and crash of an Amtrak Silver Star No. 82 train traveling on CSX track. The derailment occurred due to a defective switch on one railroad track, which was negligently maintained by CSX. Eight passengers died in the crash and 78 were injured. The jury awarded an additional $6.1 million in compensatory damages ($3.1 million economic damages; $3.0 million non-economic damages) to the family of 35-year old Miami Police Sergeant Paul Palank for his death.

On October 9, 1997, Florida judge Arthur J. Franza, in upholding the jury's punitive damages verdict, issued a stinging rebuke of CSX calling their actions that led to the Amtrak train crash "borderline criminal." He also noted that with respect to CSX, "the consequences of carelessness and greed resulted in death, the ultimate violation."

If H.R. 2247 had been law when the 1991 Amtrak train crash occurred, all damages assessed against CSX ( compensatory and punitives) would have to be paid for by Amtrak -- not CSX.

"The clear and convincing evidence shows that Silver Star No, 82's tragic derailment was caused by willful, wanton negligence, which is the functional equivalent of manslaughter," said Judge Franza.

"The CSX bailout bill would represent a huge government shield for corporate wrongdoing and cause the American taxpayer to foot the bill for the lax safety standards of America's biggest railroad companies," said Frank Clemente, Director of Public Citizen's Congress Watch.

Besides giving a blanket indemnification policy to the country's largest railroads for the most egregious misconduct (misconduct that is wanton, willful or deliberate), H.R. 2247 would also take away the legal rights of injured train passengers who seek to hold CSX and other corporate wrongdoers fully accountable for their actions. For instance, H.R. 2247 would cap punitive damage awards at $250,000 or three times economic losses, whichever is greater. In the Palank case, had the bill been law, the punitive damages assessed against CSX could not have exceeded $9.3 million, or three times the $3.1 million award for economic damages. Companies consider the risk of punitive damages in determining how great an investment to make to achieve railroad safety.

Further, the House bill would also prohibit passengers injured in train accidents from receiving non-economic damages greater than $250,000 of their economic loss, regardless of the circumstances. Such awards include compensation for gross disfigurement, loss of fertility, loss of vision and pain and suffering. This cap discriminates against the elderly, the poor, children and women -- especially those not employed outside the home -- whose injuries often involve mostly non-economic losses.

This legislation is doubly ironic given an October 8, 1997, report from the Federal Railroad Administration that details safety shortfalls in all areas of CSX's operation. "FRA found an atmosphere at CSXT in which some CSXT field managers consistently failed to demonstrate full commitment to safety," says the FRA report. "Some front-line managers emphasize train operations over safety precautions."

In a further example of how too much of the business of Washington is protecting business, the October 20, 1997, Washington Post reported that "The head of safety for the Federal Railroad Administration accepted a vice president's post at CSX Transportation Inc. the day after the agency released a scathing report on the company's safety culture and the condition of some of its tracks and signals."

"These provisions are corporate welfare, plain and simple," said Clemente. "Look at what the FRA and Judge Franza say about CSX's utter disregard for safety. With CSX's record, you know the next catastrophe is just waiting to happen. Why should American taxpayers pay for this company's -- or any other private railroad's -- future misconduct?"

Clemente continued, "Through its new hire CSX appears to have bought the silence of its chief watchdog. It's also been buying the support of Congress, which is poised to pass this outrageous legislation. CSX contributed $1.4 million to political candidates and parties since 1995. Union Pacific, the other giant, contributed $2.7 million. Both maxed out to the one person who had the most to do with crafting this legislation -- Rep. Bud Shuster (R-PA), chairman of the House Transportation Committee. And CSX paid $90,000 over the last six months to hire as one of its lobbyists on the liability issues in the Amtrak bill Ann Ephardt, Shuster's former chief of staff.

http://www.citizen.org/pressroom/release.cfm?ID=210
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LaPera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 03:21 AM
Response to Original message
29. Bush/Rove keeping our fear and attention on Social Security, they are
Edited on Thu Mar-17-05 03:25 AM by LaPera
pushing everything else through.

Well planned smokescreen by Rove.

While we can't let down our fight for Social Security privatization, they are counting on that to get though more of their piggish agenda.
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JPZenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Santorum Breaks Promise on AMTRAK
The Bush Administration's clearly stated goal is to force AMTRAK into bankruptcy this year, so that some pieces of it can be sold to private companies, while the rest would be shut down.

Almost all the Senators in the Northeast (including Senator Specter) supported restoring the same level of funding for AMTRAK as last year. One Senator in the Region voted against it - Santorum.

Here's the most recent news articles on the topic, which says Santorum broke a commitment he made 3 weeks ago to support a continuation of AMTRAK, from the Harrisburg PA Patriot-News:

http://www.pennlive.com/news/patriotnews/index.ssf?/base/news/1111054973310970.xml

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