Are we going to "Support the Troops" when the US invades Venezuela?

[IndianaGreen]

Are we going to "Support the Troops" when the US invades Venezuela?

This is not a hypothetical. You all know it is coming. There is no way that the tyrant Bush is going to allow socialism to set roots outside Cuba, even if he has to murder millions to achieve his goals.

Chile will be a nose bleed compared to the bloodbath that Bush is planning for Venezuela.

I won't support the troops. I won't support the US government. I won't support Bush. I will resist everything this tyrannical regime does!

[murray hill farm]

1. I dont believe it will happen.

i dont believe the world will allow it to happen.

[atreides1]

9. Just Like Iraq

The world tried to stop him from attacking Iraq, and the IWR even stated that he would work with the UN. Guess what, he lied, and he launched an attack anyway.

[genius]

2. A lot of Dems will side with Venezuela.

[IndianaGreen]

5. Not Hillary, not the DLC, and not the military wing of the party

"Support the Troops or you are a terrorist" will be the rallying cry. If anyone ever had any doubts as to who our real enemies are in this country, you will soon find out when you see all those "Ds" joining the "Rs" in issuing proclamations and resolutions in support of the invasion.

They will also say that our troops are only following orders and cannot be blamed for anything they do. Under that flawed and morally bankrupt logic, the only war criminals during the Second World War were Hitler and Jodl. Eichmann and Mengele would have been innocent!

[femme.democratique]

22. Actually, I think this situation is going to be MUCH more problematic

Since, after all, we're talking about many WHITE CHRISTIAN/CATHOLIC people here - can't fall back on the usual terrorism/Islam/all-brown-people-are-fair-game mentality. Even the "communism" argument doesn't hold water since his people love him and he is certainly not a Castro-style dictator.

Any Democrat or Repuke who supports an invasion of Venezuela should be be disemboweled, forced to eat abd choke on their own bowels, be drawn and quartered and paraded through the streets. Sorry to sound so coarse, but....the punishment must fit the crime. Can't claim WMDs in Venezuela fuckers!

That means you, Ms. Clinton! May Hugo Chavez be protected from the vile poison that is the US Government...

"Currently estimated at 22 million and increasing at a rate of over 2.5% per year, Venezuela's population is the fastest growing in South America. Half the population is under the age of eighteen. The vast majority of Venezuelans lives in urban areas, and Caracas is home to about 20% of the population. Population density varies according to region. While cities of the central coastal region have a high concentration of people, areas such as Los Llanos, the Amazon and Guyana are inhabited by very few. Owing to the constant migration of people from country to city, this distribution seems likely to continue.

Venezuela has a mixed ancestry. About 67% of the population are of Mulatto-Mestizo descent, with the remainder made up of Whites (21%), Africans (10%), and Indians (2%). Nowadays, many immigrants also reside in the country, coming above all from Colombia. The most commonly practiced religion is Roman Catholicism, though Protestantism is growing in importance. Practising Muslims and Jews are relatively uncommon."

[IndianaGreen]

23. Venezuelan elites are all WHITE

The majority of Venezuelans are of Indian or mixed ethnicity. One of the reasons the elites hate Chavez is that he is brown, not white like they are.

[femme.democratique]

24. Of course the rich people hate Chavez....but my understanding is..

...the elite class is quite small in proportion and have little recourse against the majority, besides sucking up to the US

[cajones_II]

71. people forget the anti-Chavez movement was termed the "blonde revolution"

and that the dark skinned poor are the ones benefiting from this populist movement.

I think that the neocons fear that these ideas may prove hugely successful and that of course runs very contrary to their interests, having an egalitarian society

[IndianaGreen]

86. Imagine if the poor whites got together with the working poor

and minorities and realized that their numbers were larger than that of the US elites. What if they all decided to take power. That's what the elites truly fear!

[Qanisqineq]

3. I will support the troops

(And no, that does not include those that choose to torture or murder people) Supporting the troops doesn't mean that I necessarily support what they are doing. It really isn't their fault they are sent somewhere. They didn't make the decision to invade. Hell, most of them have no freaking desire to go to Iraq or go BACK to Iraq. They are sick of being deployed and want to be with their families. It would be great if they could all go AWOL and refuse the orders to go to Iraq or (hypothetically) Venezuela. But when you have a family of three little kids and your wife stays home to take care of them and you are already living off food stamps, going AWOL and not being able to get a job for fear of being found and imprisoned is very a scary thought.

[IndianaGreen]

8. The troops can refuse to follow orders

They can do what the Russian army did in 1917 and turn around and come home, and we must encourage them to do so!

[Qanisqineq]

10. and by refusing orders

they would be jailed and thus the above scenario applies. I live on a military base and I know how unhappy the troops are with the endless wars. I also know that many families are on foodstamps. You never know what it is like until you walk a mile in their shoes.

[IndianaGreen]

12. They have the choice the German army had in WWII

If they become willing accomplices in Bush's crimes, then history will forever label them as war criminals.

[Qanisqineq]

15. Ah, but you make things sound so simple

all black and white like everything is to Bush. WILLING is not the word. Like I've said a hundred times before, UNLESS YOU ARE IN THEIR SHOES YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEY BELIEVE THEIR CHOICES ARE AND HOW TO GO ABOUT REFUSING ORDERS AND HOW TO SUPPORT THEIR FAMILIES WHILE THEY RUN FROM THE LAW.

Many enlisted soldiers have no idea what their options are and how to get around things. I am not calling them stupid, but most are straight out of high school, no college, married young with a handful of kids. They are afraid of what the hell they will do without a job if they leave the army. My husband has been in 10 years, went to college, and knows ways to try to get out of things.

My husband is currently trying everything he possibly can to become a hated and despised recruiter just so he doesn't have to go back to Iraq this June. Could he go AWOL? Sure, but then he would be on the run for the rest of his life so he wouldn't go to jail. I have been unemployed the last 9 months due to health problems and the medical bills are piling up because the "free healthcare" from the military isn't alwasy so damn free! Go to another country? Where? How do we pay to get there? We pay the bills and buy food and are lucky if we have money to put gas in the damn car. He goes AWOL and then we have no money and I have no healthcare. I have a M.S. degree and that would be great for a job but it is kind of hard to get a job if you have no healthcare, are suffering from a rather debilitating endocrine problem and are often too sick to go to work.

Things ain't always as easy as they seem on the outside.

[IndianaGreen]

19. Those same soldiers will open fire on Americans on American soil

as the Ohio National Guard did at Kent State during the Vietnam War. Make no mistake about this! The Bush dictatorship is already using the military in the US, thereby usurping the police powers that the late US Constitution granted exclusively to the States.

[Qanisqineq]

43. really?

my husband went to Iraq and he would never fire on US citizens. I can't say any soldier I know would and I know that for sure.

[IndianaGreen]

51. American soldiers have fired on Americans throughout our history

They have done it to break up strikes and demonstrations. This is part of American history that is not normally taught in our schools.

[ProudDad]

77. I WAS in their shoes

I resigned from the military rather than go and fight in Viet-Nam.

I considered it the HIGHEST form of patriotism. Murdering innocents for the god-damn Exxon/Mobil corp. is TREASON!!!!

[mike_c]

16. I've asked this question before and not gotten a good answer....

Would you ask the "troops" to risk dying for a corrupt foreign policy, but not ask them to risk jail for refusing to participate in an illegal invasion? The thing is, they're in the military, so that's the choice they face.

[Qanisqineq]

17. Would I ask them to do that?

No, but it isn't in my power. The risk of dying comes with money, they get paid more to go to combat zones and if they do die their wives and children get lots of money. $250,000 usually -- not from the military but from the life insurance they have to buy. Do I understand their reasons for choosing to go if they believe the invasion is illegal/immoral? No, but I try and I know that people put under a lot of pressure by their superiors will do a lot of things. Hell, some have NO choice. My husband, upon finding out he would be deployed to Iraq in the spring of 2003, did not have a CHANCE to go AWOL if he had wanted to. We were living in separate states so he was in the barracks and they were only told a week before deployment and were confined to the barracks with escorts to and from the dining hall.

[BL611]

36. Why troops go...

I myself am a former soldier who served in Iraq and didn't support the war. Besides the obvious legal ramifications of not going there are other major factors.While we do not support the war we do support our country and believe in doing the job we are responsible for as soldiers, and using the powers off democracy to turn our nation in a better direction. We also all get deployed with the rest of our units we are trained to work as a team and if we went AWOL because we disagree with our mission, we would be endangering the lives of our brothers.Also if we don't go, someone else will, it will just shorten the troop rotation and make some other poor guy leave his family again and go back.

I would also like to say it is highly hypocritical of any American to put the responsibility of this on the soldiers and not yourself. If you think America is a imperialist country fine thats your opinion your entitled to that. But YOU receive an imperialist pay check, drive an imperialist car, use an imperialist cell phone, type on an imperialist computer, and yes pay imperialist taxes that put the bullets in soldiers weapons, they might pull the trigger, but you play every bit as integral part in the process. I find it highly dubious that everyone wants to renounce America as a superpower, but has no interest in abdicating the benefits of it being so.

[Qanisqineq]

44. I really hope by saying "YOU" that you are not talking about me

because I am the one defending the soldiers and I am the wife of a soldier that served in Iraq. Otherwise, yes I agree with you.

[BL611]

46. NO absolutley not

It was a general statement about the tone in the thread I'm 100% on your side

[Qanisqineq]

47. just making sure!

didn't know if you had read just that post you responded to and gotten a different idea about what I was trying to say than what I had been saying previously. :)

Glad you made it home alive and hopefully in one piece.

[BL611]

62. Thank you

And the same to your husband

[ProudDad]

78. I hereby officially

and before the present company abdicate, forswear and renounce any "benefit" that has accrued to me or mine as a result of being an accidental citizen of the evil-empire....

There, does that satisfy you?

[BL611]

88. Evidently you have not

Since your still using your "evil" computer, if you would like to move to Antarctica and stop participating in the global economic system that maintains our "evil empire" then yes I would be satisfied, and deeply admire a man who actually stood up for his convictions, instead of shouting some oversimplified slogan at a war protest, and then going out and buying an $8 coffee at Starbucks and feel satisfied that you made the world a better place (I'm not saying this SPECIFICALLY characterizes you, but you get the point)

[SoCalifer]

60. Well

I can say this:

As a former infantryman in the U.S. Army. Not only would I refuse orders to go to Venezuela for the scenario this thead points-out.

I would have also refused to go to Iraq.. I would have told my chain of command that I will not go half way around the world to kill poor people who have not attacked us, just so that some rich asshole can make millions more dollars.

I would have no problem being sent to a military jail and that's the attitude I was trained to have back when I served. These guys are trained to refuse orders if those orders conflict with such things as the Geneva convintions, U.S. military general orders and other documents describing the conduct of a U.S. solider..

To be quite honest with you. I would wear the uniform of a prisoner as a badge of honor if it were because I stood up against this rouge government for what was right...

[BL611]

63. Would you?

Regardless of your feeling's toward Iraq, nothing about the mission specifically violates general orders, the soldiers code, or Geneva (most soldiers did not participate or have any knowledge in A.G.). I'm curious as to which war you served in which you did not go "half way around the world to kill poor people" if thats how you would like to look at it.

[SoCalifer]

65. BL611

Military Code Of Conduct

"I am an American fighting man. I serve in the forces which guard my country and our way of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense."




Military Oath

I, _________, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God..



----------------------------




The key issue here is: Are your orders legal? We who have served or who are serving have been taught that "just following orders" doesn't protect you from your actions. And this doesn't just apply on everyday details; it also applies to orders coming from the horse's mouth (the President) himself.

And the action of "Preemptively" attacking a nation (especially based on lies and distortions) because they might have material you do not wish for them to have violates the historical long standing principle of our country not being a country who wages a war of aggression. And despite what you might think, these lies and distortions were nothing but cheap justifications to wage a war of aggression - (for the purpose of money for the Oligarchy who make up our Plutocracy).

And also despite what you might think; waging this war of aggression not only violates the Geneva Conventions and the UN Charter (treaties we are signatures to) or attacking a country without UN Security Council endorsement (another treaty violation), but it also violates the U.S. Constitution that every solider swore to protect.


. Constitution Article 1 Section 8.

"The Congress shall have Power.... To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;"



Now my humble apologies if I offend anyone, but for those who falsely believe that the war powers act give the President Kingship authority over the military and military actions; I think you should read more of what our founders and other early Americans said and wrote about such things as "checks & balances" - "separation of powers" and entanglements with foreign nations.

Now if you are one of those who believes that the war powers act legitimately gives the President Kingship authority over the military despite what the Constitution says. How do you reconcile the landmark U.S. Supreme Court case of Marbury Vs Madison? Where the Supreme Court affirms the principle of "separation of powers" and that any law or act or legislation that's repugnant to the Constitution is null & void.


Marbury Vs Madison: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=5&page=137



And BL611 to answer your last question as to which war I served in. First please don't put words in my mouth. I never said I served in a war. I said I am a former U.S. Army Infantryman. If you need more details. I served in the 9th Infantry Divison at Fort Lewis Washington 1984 - 1987 with the unit Alpha 2nd of the 2nd.

Secondly (and again), if you are going to quote me, please don't distort my quote to make it appear as something it is not. I never implied that war doesn't involve the killing of people who are probably poor, as the way you portray in quoting me. I said that I would refuse to go half-way around the world to kill poor people "just so that some rich asshole can make millions more dollars."



**Sigh** Some people...

[brindis_desala]

66. I salute you, sir. A true patriot. Unfortunately few Americans

seem to know their own history,the good or the bad. I understand that this is responsible for much of our present woes but it is hard to fault them seeing the non-education most are deliberately receiving. The vexing part is that a democracy is not sustainable without an informed and active citizenry and unlike the 1930's where high school graduates had actually studied government and the US Constitution most young people today would consider someone as outspoken as Smedley-Butler to be Un-American.

[SoCalifer]

70. Thank You brindis_desala

For your kind words.. And allow me to return a salute to you for pointing out a very important epidemic that seems to be pervasively inflicting our youth today - that is: Lack of education. I have to say that it deeply saddened me to hear on the news the other day that a majority of our youth answered a poll that they thought the First Amendment and the Constitution granted too much freedom.

When I heard that; I sat and thought to myself for a moment, and I couldn't help to think that I was seeing what the basic problem is, that is causing our country to lose it's most basic heritage of individual independent freedom and that is this false thought that the Constitution "grants" our freedoms.

In my opinion this erroneous attitude about our Constitution granting rights is an underlining problem that needs to be addressed. The Constitution doesn't grant us any of our rights; the founders where pretty explicit on that matter. The Constitution is "only" a document that "restricts" government, lists their jurisdiction/duties and "insures" that our inalienable individual human rights are protected. No where in the Constitution does it "grant" us what is ours by birth-right, and no where in the Constitution does it give government the jurisdiction to violate our inalienable rights.

It is also my opinion that the wrongful thinking pertaining to our Constitution is what lead up to and made it possible for our political agenda to be set by corporate interests instead of public and individual interests.

It is my heart felt opinion that it is vitally important for us to take back control of our news media from the corporations and our education system from the government.

[cajones_II]

72. What we don't know is the confusion aspect

If you , as a soldier, see that order coming down the pike in advance you can prepare an adequate response commensurate with your training.

Most of the flagrantly awful commands however occur in a comman setting where you are deployed and all your viewpoint is compressed into a singlemost thought:

"How do I help myself, and my squad, survive here and now to see another day?"

Politics kinda gets lost in the swirl of armed confrontation.

[brindis_desala]

74. Perhaps the greatest irony of American history is that the

14th Amendment intended to protect freed slaves from exploitation was used (perversely) to grant corporations the same rights as citizens (in 1886 Santa Clara vs Southern Pacific). Now those corporations have seen their power so increase as to subsume the rights of citizens to the point that we are being reduced to virtual serfdom. You are absolutely correct. Until we no longer grant corporations the status of persons and adhere to the Constitution's mandate which includes PROMOTING the general welfare we will be left to pay lip service to our Bill of Rights.

[BL611]

87. While all you said might be well and good...

None of it puts Iraq in a place where it would be uniquely justifiable to refuse orders.

Could you make a legal argument debating the legality (and certainly morality) of the war in Iraq, yes of course, as I said I was against the war,thats your responsibility as a civilian, not mine as a soldier it does not abdicate me of the responsibilities I have to my fellow soldiers. As a soldier you place your faith on democracy and the civilian leadership of the country, however as you noted in the oath, your main responsibility is to follow orders of the President, if those orders are illegal we depend on the democratic principles of our country to hold those responsible accountable ( I don't think the Micheal Moore wing of the war opposition did a particularly good job of that.

This war was not JUST about some rich asshole making a million dollars (this philosophy is part of the above mentioned weak war opposition, that so let me down as a soldier), while I do not happen to be of the belief that this war was fought out of altruism toward the people of Iraq, it has given the Iraqi people a chance at democracy which most of them are grateful for (despite the rantings of some left demagogues). Now was this chance worth inciting much of the Arab world against us,while committing our military to a long term rebuilding effort, or did they deserve the chance any more then other nations of even POORER people who live under even MORE repressive regimes? In my opinion no, however once again it is not the job of a soldier to craft policy, it is the job of a soldier to follow orders and cast their vote once every year as they see fit like every other American, while I can understand such armchair quarterbacking from a civilian who never served in uniform, from a former soldier it does disappoint me.

As I had mentioned in a previous post in this thread, as an American tax payer you enable war as much as any soldier, if you are adamant about going to jail for your opposition to this war, did you stop paying your taxes in 2003?

[ProudDad]

79. The entire Iraq invasion and occupation

is AGAINST the U.S. Constitution and international law.

All who are there are by definition War Criminals.

[ProudDad]

76. No way

They could choose to be human beings instead of tools of the empire.

A pox on them....

[benburch]

4. The troops, yes, the war and the President, no.

If he does this, he will also face a war HERE.

So, I don't think that this is gonna happen.

[murray hill farm]

11. I agree!

This would be the thing that would bring bush down..the world and the american people, themselves...will not allow this to happen. It was allowed to happen in Iraq, but this will not happen in Venezuela.

[genius]

67. The troops have a moral obligation to oppose war or be charged with

war crimes? If they go to Venezuela and fight, they are war criminals.

[atreides1]

6. Ditto

All Americans will soon have to decide, do we look the other way as Bush and his neocon maniacs keep using military force as a way to create an Empire? Do we sit and watch as innocent civilians are murdered because of some twisted concept of "democracy" that this adminstration and its supporters force on other countries?

Are we really going to support a military that follows orders to drop bombs and artillery shells on people just because they don't happen to agree with what the politicians of America think?

If Bush orders the use of force on Venezuela, and the US military follows that order, then the US military will prove itself to be no better then the German military under Hitler.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

7. The "troops" in Venezuela will be Venezuelans or Columbians.

Assassins, mercenaries, CIA, and every other kind of thug the US can pay or manipulate into taking Chavez and the hopes of the Venezuelan people down. Hopefully, Hugo will prove to be another Fidel in his ability to withstand the attacks.

[stray cat]

13. No - I think we should just rise up and kill all our soldiers.

The above was sarcastic for those who might agree with the statement. I will resist the regime as they are the ones who send the soldiers to war. I think what was done to the soldiers who served in Vietnam was a travesty and I do not choose to return to it.

[wheresthemind]

18. thank you!!

They are kids, ignorent kids, and I certainly will not wish harm on them.

And it is not as easy as them refusing orders, they could then be shot.

[IndianaGreen]

21. Our troops may need our help in setting up an underground railroad

to assist those troops that want no part of Bush's Imperial Army escape this country to freedom in Canada or elsewhere.

[Wright Patman]

14. Monroe Doctrine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_Doctrine

See "Roosevelt Corollary."

Although FDR's program is set to be repealed, Teddy was personally cited by Poppy as his favorite president. TR fought in the Spanish-American War, perhaps America's first foray into empire.

Reagan invaded Grenada in 1983 to "retaliate" for the Beirut Marine barracks' bombing.

Then Poppy invaded Panama in 1989 because Noriega "knew too much" about CIA drug trafficking.

We had an intervention in Haiti during Clinton's presidency, although it was to reinstall an elected leader, as I recall. Venezuela would be to redepose a leader who keeps getting elected in spite of all our elite's efforts to the contrary.

In short, we are long overdue for another invasion of a Latin American country and the masses can easily be whipped up into a frenzy because of the long history of the Monroe Doctrine.

[jonnyblitz]

20. How did all of "our" oil end up in Venezuela?

*cough* :eyes:

[Cuban_Liberal]

25. Invades Venezuela with WHAT?

We don't have enough troops available.

[IndianaGreen]

26. We have enough troops to support another coup in Venezuela

They are already positioned in Latin America as the special ops forces assigned to SOCSOUTH, and command and control units with USARSO in Puerto Rico. We also have the Navy to block harbors and patrol rivers, and plenty of Air Force to provide air support to the coup forces.

The Caracas TV and radio stations, which are owned by the elites, will make sure that the people of Venezuela don't find out about the coup until it is a done deal.

Our glorious troops will bomb and shell the Caracas shanty towns from which Chavez derives his support. They will burn like Dresden, and the American media will never report it.

[Cuban_Liberal]

30. Do we, now?

Exactly what units are there, where are they located, and who will do THEIR jobs when they are sent to Venezela?

[IndianaGreen]

31. Our counter-narcotics efforts will have to wait for a few days

Here is a website that has a lot of information about the facilities and troops we have in Southern Command and elsewhere:

http://www.ciponline.org/facts/bases.htm

BTW, we still have the entire 82nd Airborne at Fort Bragg at Bush's disposal.

[Cuban_Liberal]

32. That's a link, not an answer.

To refresh your memory, the questions were:

"Exactly what units are there, where are they located, and who will do THEIR jobs when they are sent to Venezela?

The third question is particularly critical, for anyone who even vaguely understands logistics.

[IndianaGreen]

33. They are next door in Colombia and in Curaçao

And Bush has the 82nd Airborne at Fort Bragg that can be used to secure airfields in Venezuela.

Like in Iraq, toppling a government is easy. Keeping power is another thing. The neocons are counting on the elites, the reactionary Church, and their allies in the Venezuelan military to do their bit to secure the country.

One monkey wrench: Chavez is arming popular militias using the Boliviarian Circles.

[Cuban_Liberal]

34. And who replaces the troops in Colombia and Curacao?

No one in the Army's sole job is to stand around and hold a rifle--- they all have JOBS to do. Therefore, the question (for the third time) is who replaces THEM in their jobs?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

37. How about the 40,000 that Kerry wants?

After all, he doesn't want them to go to Iraq and fight in the war he voted for.

[IndianaGreen]

41. The PNACers expect a short term deployment

They think that everything will be under control within a couple of days as it was during the first coup.

[Cuban_Liberal]

42. Believe what you will.

I give up.

:eyes:

[IndianaGreen]

52. !,000 Marines arrived off the coast of Venezuela last Monday

This was posted by Say_What:

US Ambassador in Venezuela Laments “Lack of Communication”

Saturday, Mar 05, 2005


On Monday, Venezuelan press reported the arrival of one thousand marines, Harrier aircraft, Super Cobra, Sea King and Sea State helicopters, as well as amphibious vehicles in Curacao and Aruba. Since the closure of Howard Air Force base in Panama in 1999, the United States has relocated to three “Forward Operating Locations” (FOLs), situated in El Salvador, Ecuador, and Curacao-Aruba-Dutch Antilles. Curacao, where the USS Sapain made port, is just 40 miles off Venezuela’s Caribbean coast, while Aruba is only 15 miles off Venezuela’s Paraguaná peninsula, in the North-Western state of Falcón.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1534

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1288913#1289782

This was posted by Judi Lynn:

Curacao government rejects use of its territory to attack Venezuela

ABN: The government of Curacao ratified that it rejects the use of its territory to conduct attacks on Venezuela. Prensa Latina reports state that according to local media, Curacao cabinet members assured Venezuelan officials that Curacao is a peaceful area and that it would never contribute to the violation of Venezuelan sovereignty.

According to National Assembly (AN) president, Nicolas Maduro, Curacao authorities coordinated new plans of cultural and ideological exchange between Venezuela and Curacao, after stating their position against Washington’s new plans against Venezuela.

http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=26452

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1288913#1289263

[ProudDad]

81. What the Hell??

Are they doing in Colonbia and Curacao???

They don't belong there either!!!!

[Malva Zebrina]

27. I am weary of the "support the troops" debacle

It has come to the point that it means nothing anymore but support the war. I know there are people who can jump the logic gap and claim to not support the war, but who claim simultaneously to support the troops. Usually, there is an explanation that the troops are desperate kids, who don't know anything, too young to know anything, or family dads and moms who were so poor that they needed to join the military as a good deal--I would think that the troops, being thus rendered stupid, impulsive kids who do not know anything, or a family that cannot find a better deal, would be seriously offended. That they cannot disopbey an order , one which is illegal or particularly out of a serious bout of conscience,is equally as insulting. That is not respecting or supporting the troops or even the human being.

My primary beef with the support the troops meme is in the language and the way it has been used by Bush to heap guilt upon those who are against his murderous war, and indeed, guilt was produced and now we are expected to "support the troops" or else we do not appreciate the "sacrifice" made so we can remain "safe" or so that we can have "freedoms" due to the troops

OK, a few days ago on DU there was an article that mentioned that the armed services did not meet their quota for the month of February. I am not certain what the actual numbers were, or what the quota expectancy is, but it mentioned that somewhere around 2,500 new recruits only were joined up. These are esstimated number, I think it was even higher than that, but it was at least 2,500. Now multiply that by 24 months and I think it comes out to 60,000 have joined up since Bush did his lying and bombing and killing.

Apparently, they must have known and believed that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction, and was a threat,or may have had other reasons, even though to many the lies were quite obvious. Do we support these some 1/3 of the troops because they were misinformed or because they approved of the invasion? Further, of the remaining 100,000 troops, assuming there are 150,000 deployed in Iraq, and assuming we can take the model of Bush supporters in the US, approx 50%, we may also assume say, 50,000 of them also support Bush and his slaughterhouse in Iraq.

When do we stop saying "support the troops" when it is so meaningless a slogan?

I don't want to see anyone die in this futile was. I don't want families to be mourning their only son, or daughter and I don't want to see children lose their father or their mother and never be the same again. It hurts to see it, looking at both warring factions, but this "support the troops" message is just a ridiculous affront to logic, the language and it's meanings and I am sorry so many are ready to assign some devious, evil to persons who shun from using that slogan.

[IndianaGreen]

28. "troops are desperate kids, who don't know anything"

Usually, there is an explanation that the troops are desperate kids, who don't know anything, too young to know anything, or family dads and moms who were so poor that they needed to join the military as a good deal

You might find it interesting that the profile of US troops that you described fits perfectly the profile of the military of every oligarchy in the world. Poverty is the greatest military recruiter in the world! Poor and desperate kids, who don't know anything, have committed atrocities in every conflict, from Haiti to El Salvador. All done on behalf of the elites that kept them poor! America is no different from a Third World oligarchy.

[seito]

40. I agree, so, what do you do?

The recruits, poor and desperate, are manipulated, brainwashed, taken advantage of etc. What do you do to help them? Do they deserve our help?

There are good and evil people in every organization. I believe that the concentration of evil lies at the top of the chain of command.

They majority of service members are victims of this administration. They are victims of a corrupt chain of command.

The radical RW has coined the phrase to mean support the war. We need to re-frame this as what it really means. Protect our soldiers from this administration.

You ask how we can be against the war and support the troops, I ask how anyone can support this administration and claim to support the troops.

[IndianaGreen]

53. Help them?

Unless they recognize the evil they are helping bring about, they are beyond help!

What we can do is help those that want to leave the military and go to a country that won't extradite them back to US control. Once conscription starts, we have a moral obligation to assist those that want to avoid becoming Imperial Troopers. We might find ourselves in a concentration camp for our efforts, but the alternative is for us to leave the country before we face the same fate the German Jews met.

[ProudDad]

84. They deserve help

to leave the military and kill no more. They deserve no more than that nor less than that.

I refuse to support anyone who carries a gun for american corporations. I ONLY support folks who are forced to use arms for their own protection...

No soldier is a victim. I will admit that most are dragooned into the military due to their lack of capacity for good judgement causing un-informed consent to perform unnatural and inhumane acts.

[ProudDad]

83. Amen!

[youngred]

29. won't be our troops

but they'll probably get our support

[marcologico]

35. wouldn't it be convenient if Hugo got blamed for a refinery explosion

somewhere... then we'd HAVE to support our boys! :(

[seito]

38. I will do everything in my power to "Support the Troops"

Support the Troops:

Bring them home alive

Give them proper medical treatment upon their return

Protect them by exposing the imperialistic plans of a corrupt government

It is my moral obligation to support them This government will use them, abuse them and sweep their memory under the carpet.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

39. I, too, will do everything in my power to "Support the Troops"

The Venezuelan troops, that is.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

45. I notice that Chavez is making alliances with powerful countries

(China, India) at record pace. Let's hope this is enough to make the neocons think twice about invading. Of course, I won't be surprised if they defy common sense as usual and invade anyway.

In such a case, I will NOT support the troops. Venezuela is no threat to the U.S., only to the U.S. oil companies, most of which are only partly owned by U.S. citizens anyway.

[dogman]

48. Don't you think a Contra type operation would be more likely?

If you pay taxes, you will probably be supporting something rotten.

[Auntie Bush]

49. I will support the troops... But

"I won't support the US government. I won't support Bush. I will resist everything this tyrannical regime does!"

[John_H]

50. they're going to send Nader to run against Chavez. n/t

[Ouabache]

57. or McCain or Lugar

n/t

[IndianaGreen]

54. U.S. Military Presence near Venezuela Raises Concerns

The image of a U.S. military ship anchored off the coast of Curacao was captured by an amateur photographer and widely distributed by Venezuelan alternative news media.

Credit: Jean - Aporrea.org

Said to be part of "routine maneuvers"

U.S. Military Presence near Venezuela Raises Concerns

Tuesday, Mar 01, 2005

By: Cleto Sojo - Venezuelanalysis.com

Caracas, Venezuela. Mar 1 (Venezuelanalysis.com).- Venezuela’s Armed Forces are closely watching the unannounced presence of U.S. military vessels near the Caribbean island of Curacao, which was detected early Monday.

The announcement was made early Monday by Venezuelan Navy commander Armando Laguna, during an interview with state TV channel Venezolana de Television. Laguna said that the Venezuelan Navy detected several foreign vessels 75 kilometers northeast of the Paraguaná Peninsula in western Venezuela.

According to Laguna, the presence of U.S. military ships near Venezuela is part of their "routine maneuvers", and told people not to be alarmed. However, Laguna assured that the United States did not announce the presence "as they traditionally have been doing it."

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1528

[ProudDad]

85. Gulf of Tonkin

Gulf of Tonkin Gulf of Tonkin Gulf of Tonkin Gulf of Tonkin Gulf of TonkinGulf of TonkinGulf of TonkinGulf of TonkinGulf of TonkinGulf of TonkinGulf of TonkinGulf of TonkinGulf of TonkinGulf of TonkinGulf of TonkinGulf of TonkinGulf of TonkinGulf of TonkinGulf of TonkinGulf of TonkinGulf of TonkinGulf of TonkinGulf of TonkinGulf of TonkinGulf of TonkinGulf of Tonkin

Can you say Gulf of Tonkin, children?

Just another military meneuver....

[DerekG]

55. I just don't know anymore

Sometimes I feel like a Japanese dissenter, secretly hoping that his own countrymen would fail in in their rape of Nanking; or the German citizen who, deep down, wants the French Resistance to...succeed.

My own personal impotence condemns me. If I don't find a way to throw a wrench in those crimson-stained gears, I suspect there'll be a place in Hell for me.

[Al-CIAda]

56. Venezuala harbors Al Queda, at least according to

the joker Al Franken had on his show Friday. It was a rather astonishing and equally absurd moment. Al was blindsided by the matter of fact delivery of the statement and asked for proof.

I kid you not, they are floating out the 'he harbors Al Queda' story.

THIS IS NUTS.

[marcologico]

58. sheesh, and we laugh at THEIR lunatic leaders

don't cry for me Kennibunkport :crazy:

[laylah]

59. Not a chance

in hell will I support "our troops" in any more of dumbass's* moves for power! If they don't have a clue YET and continue to blindly follow the a$$holes that have so blatantly taken over this country, the country they ("our troops") committed to protect, they are on their own!

Jenn (edited to add: daughter of a WWII veteran!)

[CWebster]

61. Yeah like when they shot to kill the Italian journalist

with the same lie they always use--the car was racing towards the checkpoint and ignored warning shots.

Support the troops.

I never bought that crap, it always seemed to be a way to lend credibility to what the troops were doing.

[DemocracyInaction]

64. Two reasons we won't invade anything or anybody

1) We ain't got a military left; 2) we ain't got no money, honey. It's the only thing keeping the animal in his cage...........

[Niccolo_Macchiavelli]

68. just following orders no excuse . sorry

i can looking for work getting wage or making money on my own

or

i can go shoot up some granny and take her purse.


A soldier can look for other work or go shoot up some at-will-made-foes.

its the same equation. For that matter from the next attacked country on the american armed forces will just be the american wehrmacht. There's ALLWAYS a choice, many are hard, but still chooseable. Just following orders ain't no excuse. As the american civilian citizen are faced with an more and more fascist installations i ask the troops:


WHEN WILL YOU FINALLY SUPPORT THE AMERICAN CIVILIAN CITIZEN?!?

[Joanne98]

69. I'm supporting Hugo Chavez. The Hell with anybody else.

Although I'm don't think we going to do it.

[LittleClarkie]

73. I support the troops, it's Bush I can't stand

Should we also rail against goverment workers. After all, they work for a government we don't support. Do we support them, or can they go to hell too.

And what does supporting the troops mean? To me, it means health care, looking out for their families, making sure the National Guard and the reservists aren't treated like second class soldiers who have to scrounge for hillbilly armor.

I support the troops. I don't support what Bush does with them.

[ProudDad]

75. NO WAY IN HELL

I'd be more inclined to go down there and support the correct side...

[cajones_II]

80. They will certainly catch most antiwar dems sleeping at the wheel

This isn't even a blip on the radar thanks to the corporate Media here.

If they are tru to form, the invasion will be a "liberation", don't you think?

[zulchzulu]

82. I'll support the troops...by protesting that they should not go

Many are being dragged into these PNAC battles against their will and interest. Imagine a National Guard person (who signed up to protect the US) being brought into battles that PNAC needs for their agenda.

I would support them...by doing what I could by protesting in the streets.