Will you view Kucinich differently at the debate

[SEAburb]

after his deal with Edwards in Iowa? I have to admit that after seeing Braun carrying water for Dean at the Black and Brown debate, I will. If Kucinich attacks another candidate I will wonder if he is doing it to help Edwards. I think Kucinich did harm to his credibility by making the deal with Edwards.

[redqueen]

1. No.

A question: how does someone who became a paid 'consultant' after she dropped out subsequent to that debate relate to someone who bargained for delegates and has not dropped out, and who has made very clear that the deal was for the Iowa caucus only?

Is there some similarity that I'm not seeing?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

4. These snipes are getting very old

and repetitious.

Let's see. How does it go? "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you..."

[redqueen]

8. Yes

Clearly we're now moving more fully into 'then they attack you' territory. :)

I look forward to hearing Kucinich hammer the 'we're in it for years, screw the domestic budget' folks on their priorities once again.

On that same topic, he should definitely mention how not cutting the Pentagon budget is absolutely stupid. The fact that the Pentagon lost over a trillion dollars should be brought up -- maybe he can bring a chart for that. :)

I also hope he mentions how stupid it is to keep for-profit insurance in the healthcare system.

He needs to make it crystal clear how truly different (and better :) ) he is than the other candidates.

[SEAburb]

9. This is a legitimate question

Sharpton has been accused of carrying water for the DLC and we know Braun did so for Dean, so why not look at Kucinich.

[redqueen]

11. What the hell?

How is Kucinich supposed to 'carry water' for an opponent?

He's still in the race, unlike Braun.

I honestly don't know what the hell you're talking about with respect to Sharpton... care to clarify?

[SEAburb]

13. Braun was still in the race at Black & Brown debate

when she attacked Sharpton and Edwards on Dean's behalf.

[redqueen]

15. And you think she had no plans to drop out,

and had no plans made with Dean at that point?

Please.

[Tinoire]

62. Braun hasn't been running seriously from the start.

Her extremely stark, empty web-page should have been a clue to all. Carol talked beautifully on stage and blah, blah about her vision for health care (thank God Nigeria never came up) but never took even a few hours to put something in writing for Jim McDermott's panel, the ADA, or the PNHP to examine and evaluate.

Did anyone visit it? I did- not a damn thing on it on it.

Same with Sharpton. He was thrown in the race for entertainment purposes and to split the antiwar vote. Also as a palliative bone to Black-Americans. And Sharpton was smart enough to know that. He too never bothered putting squat on his web-page or submitting a single issue paper to various panels.

This entire thing is getting so sad...

[redqueen]

64. Thanks for stating the painfully obvious

And it is painful.

I don't judge candidates on their fundraising or poll numbers, but their willingness to formulate policy papers is really something to take seriously.

[plurality]

16. yeah, and she had already contacted Joe Trippi and other Dean staff

several days before. So maybe they worked out a deal on the phone.

[diamondsoul]

12. I don't honestly have a priblem with the question

I think you're trying to ask, but I do have a problem with questioning Kucinich's integrity. That's a personal problem on my end, and I attempted to answer, albeit with my temper showing. Please don't take that personally, because it's just me showing my absolute belief in Kucinich's integrity.

I'm defensive sometimes, so sue me. *wry grin*

[Hawkeye-X]

2. Guess what? Kucinich will be 100% ignored

and probably likely negative. He'll whine for his time, but will barely get airtime tonight.

Hawkeye-X

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

6. he barely gets airtime anyway

Gloat about it, but Dean's going to get plenty of airtime - of everything he did that looks silly or negative or crazy. Amazing to see people HAPPY that the Corporate Media is screwing their candidates. Some solidarity, huh?

[diamondsoul]

7. Gee, shock of all shocks.

A dean supporter smearing Kucinich yet again just for kicks.

I bet the Governor thanks you for making me want to spit on a ballot before I mark the spot next to his name.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=163393

Post # 14 by me. Give it a glance.

[goodhue]

63. yeah

Its amazing really. And yet they whine when folks don't support their guy. Quite absurd and by no means helpful to their cause.

[diamondsoul]

3. Why? Because he was pragmatic instead of

idealistic? He didn't change a thing, never wavered on his positions, hasn't endorsed anyone as a second choice for his supporters, and didn't order anyone to do anything.

He made a deal with another low-polling Democrat who has different positions and a different demographic of supporters than he does. That was smart, period.

The man can't win and I'll be honest and say this post infuriates me. "He's too idealistic", we supporters get a contsant barrage of that one- so idealistic he's "inflexible" and "fringe", and yet when he acts on pragmatism and strategy, suddenly he has questionab;e credibility. F*ckin' pick a problem to have with him and stick with it already!:eyes:

[poskonig]

5. Kucinich is usually shrill.

My view will stay about the same.

[Fovea]

10. No

I see no deviation from Dennis's principles.

As I mentioned elsewhere, I would not be inclined to vote for a saint or a naif.
This is a hard campaign, with fluid challenges.
I want someone who can fight, and maintain their character.

So far, Dennis is the big winner.

[demnan]

14. No

I've always viewed Kucinich as a very prinicipled serious man who happens to have some of my issues but is to the left of me on others. His alliance with Edwards merely shows that he is a skilled politician who can make deals. If you read "A Conscience of a Liberal" by Paul Wellstone you will get some insight into the workings of Congress and the compromises that are sometimes necessary to push through one's agenda. This man is a successful Congressman and I'm sure this isn't the first time he's made a deal with another to affect a cause.

[Rainbowreflect]

17. How anyone can question Kucinich is hard for me to understand.

He has never attacked another candidate. He has never been anything but honest, he is a pro-peace, pro-union, pro-civil rights, pro-little guy and he has never flip-flopped on any issue.
I will not speak against any other candidate because they all have their strengths and their weaknesses, but Kucinich has a vision that I never believed I would see in a presidential candidate.

[SEAburb]

21. "never attack another candidate"??

DK has attacked Dean at several debates.

[redqueen]

22. Is forcing someone to make their position clear 'attacking'?

I didn't know that.

[youngred]

24. where?

You mean by clarifying the lies Dean was telling about him?

[SEAburb]

26. Yes, those are seen as attacks. //nt

<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>

[Lydia Leftcoast]

27. Ooooh-kaaay!

You said it, SEAburb.

[redqueen]

28. LMAO

If you correct someone, it's an attack.

Okily dokily!

[Desertrose]

29. D'OH D'OH D'OH!

Must remember......
a correction of anothers lies about you is an attack...

Good to know, eh, ladies & gents??

:evilgrin:
DR

[diamondsoul]

33. By who? People who can't tell the difference

between being clear and steadfast and changing positions with the shadows the sun casts?

Yep, another Dean supporter willing to alienate all because of the Great Unstoppable Governor.

Quit it, you aren't helping him one iota.

[SEAburb]

35. I don't support Dean

This thread doesn't have anything to do with the candidate I support. I was just expressing my opinion, like you do.

[Terwilliger]

40. Kucinich is not a presidential candidate

He's a starry-eyed dreamer trying to make a point. He should stick to his guns from here on out, and not implicitly endorse someone who is nowhere near him in ideology.

[redqueen]

43. Yes, he is. And ... 'endorse'? You still don't get it, do you?

:eyes:

[Terwilliger]

45. I get it just fine redqueen

you don't

[diamondsoul]

48. Right, Terwilliger,

we're all just supposed to lose to fit YOUR ideals and views.

NO! Not no, but HELL NO! I want Kucinich to win not to kiss the asses of one issue voters. Deal with it.

[Terwilliger]

52. one issue voters? what are you talking about?

what one issue would he be ass kissing if he hadn't endorsed/supported/leaned-to Edwards?

[Terwilliger]

81. no answer?

[redqueen]

49. Think so?

Find me a cite where Kucinich endorses Edwards.

Go ahead. Prove it.

I'll be waiting, and kicking this thread until you either provide said proof or admit you didn't 'get it' after all.

[Terwilliger]

53. please...stop spinning

Monday when he advised his people to support Edwards if he wasn't going to get the 15%, he decided to play politics.

[redqueen]

54. LOL

That was quick!

So the answer is no, he did NOT endorse Edwards.

And... newsflash? He's been 'playing' politics for most of his adult life. The refreshing thing about Kucinich is that he doesn't compromise his principles to play.

:silly:

[Terwilliger]

56. that spinning

So, why didn't he support Dean or Gephardt or Sharpton or Kerry?

[redqueen]

59. Strategery

;)

Seriously... Dean? Strengthen the guy who's his main contender as 'progressive'? No... not smart.

Gephardt was supposed to do well, wasn't he? If so then what would be his motivation to help Kucinich this way?

Sharpton? Are you serious?

Kerry? LOL! You're killin me!!!!

Keep in mind, he was in this to benefit his own campaign and agenda... strengthening strong candidates ... how again is that supposed to help advance the most progressive candidate in the race?

[Terwilliger]

71. So you DO admit that his decision was political?

Thank you very much!

By the way...Kucinich is the only progressive in the race (outside of Sharpton, and I have doubts about his progressivism)

[redqueen]

94. Yes of course!

I didn't know I was making the impression I thought otherwise. Of course it's political. Criminy, if he's making decisions based on emotional reasons, he would really need to quit. He's a political animal indeed. If I didn't think he could get in there and fight with the best of them I wouldn't support him.

I don't know much about Sharpton, really. I don't take him very seriously, though, so... :shrug:

[corporatewhore]

68. "I believe clark sharpton and lieberman all made a deal"

I could be mistaken

[Terwilliger]

70. Lieberman wasn't there

and Sharpton didn't show up

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

83. are you willfully misrepresenting what happened?

Do you understand what a caucus is and how it works? Kucinich never endorsed Edwards, he suggested to his supporters that if they had no way to vote for his delegates, that they should vote for Edwards' delegates.

Otherwise, why should Kucinich even run? If you want to make a "statement" fecking sign a petition.

[Terwilliger]

86. why not Sharpton then?

Why didn't he pull for his people to vote for Sharpton?

Kucinich endorsed Edwards by supporting this "vote-trading" and supporting someone his supporters didn't support otherwise.

[youngred]

87. yeah because that would have made neither of them viable

Edwards was essentially the only option

[Ficus]

92. Sharpton???!?!?!

I never even SAW a Sharpton delagate to combine with! HA!

[Tinoire]

69. That's some stand my friend!

So if your candidate doesn't remain your version of lily-white, vote for a 3rd party that can't possibly make it or vote for one of the war-enablers or centrists?

Starry-eyed dreamer trying to make a point? I think you missed something somewhere along the way. Kucinich is in this to win and so are most of his supporters.

Also, Edwards close to him in ideology on many issues. If anything, even though they were miles apart on the war, they're the closest on many other issues especially domestic matters involving the little man.

He's not in this for people's entertainment. Thank God. He's in this and playing the game as honestly and as honorably as one can.

I am very very glad that you are not his campaign advisor~!

[Terwilliger]

72. So, you agree with what he did Tinoire?

You agree that he should have supported one candidate over another when NONE of the other candidates are close to him in his ideological stance?

So you agree with Edwards on the war and the Patriot Act and, and, and...down the line?

If he was honest, Tinoire, he'd say forthrightly and unequivocally that someone with his take on the political situation doesn't have a chance to win a Democratic party nomination. That's the honesty I'd like to see from him. (I still haven't heard about an explanation for his support of the flag desecration amendment either...there are all kinds of things I COULD object to Kucinich about.)

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

88. Why do you have to agree with someone to vote for them?

Aside from the fact that Kucinich didn't endorse Edwards, Kucinich does not and will not support the war, and that Kucinich doesn't support the Patriot Act, and his supporters don't either...

Why do you have to agree with someone to vote for them? Voting is a strategy, it's not a statement of ideological belief. It's about coalition forming.

I'd love to see a coalition among Democrats and Greens. Frankly, I'd choose the Democrats - who have the majority of the working class, the majority of minorities, the majority of women - over the Greens, which is basically a social club for upper middle class white liberals. If I have to choose between Dems and Greens, I'd choose Dems.

More working class people support Edwards than supported Nader. Nader got most of his support from the upper middle class.

Which side are you on?

[Tinoire]

91. He didn't support one candidate over the other

He made a strategic deal with another candidate so that he could remain in the race and represent die-hard people like me who aren't enamoured of the other candidates.

There are many things I like about Edwards. He's always come across as a sincere gentleman you can rely on. That deal proved it. And I know for a fact that in areas where DK was a few people shy and Edwards was viable, Edwards supporters stepped forward honorably, to help out and in areas where Kucinich was viable, Kucinich supporters helped out Edwards. It was a gentleman's strategic deal and I see nothing wrong with it.

It was a very gracious act from both of them, between 2 friends who trust each other.

I also disagree about who is close to him. War is my main issue but it is an all-encompassing issue and it is not the only issue. Edwards and Kucinich have a lot in common- especially when it comes to the little man.

See you see to think he's dead and doesn't have a chance- some sort of interesting candidate to rally around so that his message will influence the others until he disappears because he doesn't have a chance. I totally disagree. He has a damn good chance. Slow and steady will win this one.

In a vicious race of thieves, liars, and rapiers- I find it amusing that Kucinich would get criticized for making a strategic gentleman's deal with the only other candidate even remotely close to him on some domestic issues and the candidate I would consider the most trustworthy to follow through properly.

I'm not in this to watch him commit political suicide. I want him to win and will do whatever I can to help him. Don't blame Kucinich for having had to fall back on that arrangement. Blame all the people who say "I like Kucinich but" and be grateful to the camp and the people who were willing to say "I support another candidate but I like Kucinich and will help him". DK is all about cooperation and that was a great example I thought.

[robsul82]

18. He won't get any time. The debate's gonna be all about Dean.

Most of the questions for Dean will be, "How did this happen," "Explain the YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!," etc. Most of the questions for everyone else will be, "How did Dean mess it up?" And Dennis will complain that the debate's ridiculous, and nothing will get accomplished.

Later.

RJS

[goodhue]

19. nope

no different
no harm

[Desertrose]

20. Tell me, are you really concerned about Kucinich

or is this about DK coming out of the Iowa caucuses more favorably than Dean??

Why would Kucinich want to help Edwards in the debate? This is a silly question...Dennis is here to stay. Get used to it!

Harm to his credibilty?
Puh leese.

One minutes he's too idealisitc and rigid and so he actually makes some political moves and is considered a sellout or whatever odd term you came up with.....maybe by you...but not by Kucinch supporters

Dennis has integrity, tells the truth and is more shrewd than anyone gives him credit for....and has been underestimated and ignored. If anyone has a right to be angry- its Kucinich supporters.

I try to take a page from Dennis' book- you win some and lose a few but you just keep fighting for what you believe is right!

Peace & hope
DR

[youngred]

23. IT WAS A ONE TIME DEAL

Kerry and Gephardt made a similar deal.

Why on earth do we have to keep bringing this up over and over and over...it wasn't even that big at the time.

[MuseRider]

25. Nope,

it was a political move, a good one for him. He is a politician and he knows how to play the game without giving up his ideals.

[SEAburb]

30. isn't carrying water for another candidate part of the game

and I'm not saying DK is, but I will wonder if he is. Before the Edwards deal I didn't think that way about DK.

[redqueen]

31. Nah, he's better than that

This man has fought this kind of torturous, uphill battle in most of the elections he's run in. He's not quitting now. When he says it was a one-time deal, he means it.

If Edwards' plan to get us out of Iraq doesn't involve letting the UN control the reconstruction contracts and the oil contracts, then you'll hear him 'attack' Edwards tonight on his exit plan, along with all the others who don't see the elephant in the room with respect to the occupation.

[SEAburb]

32. what can I say, I'm a cynic

I believe all politicians have ulterior motives.

[redqueen]

34. I feel ya

I was the same before I heard about Kucinch. :) His commitment to the people over his own self-interest was evident from early in his career. (MUNY Light)

It's nice in here, won't you join us?

[MuseRider]

38. This is exactly it!

I was SO cynical before DK. His steadfastness was very appealing and I gained not only respect but trust in him. My initial response to the "deal" with Edwards was WTF? I read about it and then I understood it. It was because I feel that I can trust him that I was not reactive to the deal and figured he knew what he was doing.

[genius]

36. Kucinich did the right thing and now he'll be Presiident when his numbers

pick up. I recently read an article where a young girl talked about how Kucinich and Edwards were good role models for her generation.

AS for Braun, she has joined the growing number of blacks, who would rather sell themselves back into slavery than stand up against racism. The "Uncle Toms" who are doing this need to stop throwing flowers at their would-be masters. We defeated Dean's Confederacy well over a century ago and I, for one, don't want to go back.

[Valjean]

90. There's a difference

There is a difference between flying the confederate flag over a state capital and hanging it in your pickup truck.

In one instance, it is a state embracing it's past as endorsing slavery. In the other, its an individual embracing their southern heritage.

Most of the men who died fighting for the south did NOT own slaves. They were fighting for a principle of their states ability to set it's own agenda. Yeah, I know it was all a ruse but nonetheless their is still a patriotism their that is worth honoring.

It's not YOUR pickup truck. So you really don't have any say on what they should hang back their whether its a POW-MIA flag or a Confederate flag.

When it's YOUR capital building, you DO have a say. I live in Indiana. So it's none of my business what South Carolinians put on their flag OR their capital dome.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

37. Yes. His deal with Edwards was a great disappointment.

I don't give it as much weight as many, but I thought Kucinich hurt himself by making a deal with a pro-war candidate.

[Tinoire]

75. Would you have preferred he totally lose?

Not me. I want him to have a platform to make the changes he's been talking about.

Since he had to make up for all the "principled" Liberals out there who say "Well my heart is with Dennis but he's unelectable so I'm going Dean or Clark or whatever" then those are the people I blame! Not the man who is doing exactly what I as an earnest supporter and a committed voter have asked him to do and that is to get his ass out and get a platform for his ideas.

Ideas don't mean squat unfortunately if you don't have a platform.

You're still cool by me Bandera.

[TexasSissy]

39. Yes, but not because of his deal with Edwards.

It is now time for Kucinich to drop out. He was interesting before, and he added something to the race. We've had some votes now. He knows he can't make it. It's time to drop out, if he really cares about the country, so that the people can focus on the real candidates.

[diamondsoul]

41. Kucinich IS a "real" candidate.

I'll refrain from saying what I want to say out of respect for SAkinner and DU staff.

[TexasSissy]

47. Then so is Nader. But I have a different philosophy.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

50. Why do you want to deny voters a choice to vote for a Democrat?

Perhaps you're misinformed - Kucinich is a DEMOCRAT, a member of the DEMOCRATIC party, and running in the DEMOCRATIC primary. What the hell does Nader, a Green, have to do with anything?

[redqueen]

55. Thank you

It boggles my mind how people seem to forget that eensy weensy little distinction.

It may be small, but it means a lot. :)

[Terwilliger]

57. Nader had as much chance as Dennis has

maybe less

It's an ego-trip candidacy, according to what I've been told for years. Running even though you're not going to win anything.

[redqueen]

61. Maybe less?

Terwilliger, please!

Do you not know how many people would have LOVED To have voted for Nader, but voted Dem, because of the two-party rigged game we are forced to play?

Just based on that fact alone, you should realize how specious your argument is.

Dennis is a DEMOCRAT. Anyone who voted for Nader should realize how much that means in any election under the two-party scam.

And please, please stop saying it's an 'ego trip' candidacy. I believe he can win. I truly do. I think he does too.

Cynicism kills, you know.

[Terwilliger]

65. cynicism is great

it quickly adapts to the reality of the situation

[no name no slogan]

66. Um, he was DRAFTED to run for president

Maybe it's convenient for you to overlook that fact, but DK only ran for president because of the thousands of letters and emails he got from people who heard his "Prayer for America" speech in Feb 2002.

How many of the so-called "vanity" candidates were DRAFTED to run for president by an outpouring of popular support? Other than Clark, who else in the race was drafted? Anyone? Anyone?

DK is not a "vanity candidate" as you and the whoremedia insist. He's in it for real, because he has a vision for America that NONE of the other candidates are advocating-- either out of fear, cynicism, or both.

DK is in this race until the end. Get used to it.

[Terwilliger]

73. I'm glad he's in it until the end

He can wow them from his sideline soapbox as they fall all over each other trying to look warlike.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

82. This is the PRIMARY

The whole idea that voting for who you want - long shot or not - is like being a spoiler for a third party is anti-democratic on it's face. You vote for who you want in the primary, and you vote for the nominee in the general. That's what party politics is all about. Even if your candidate doesn't win, you show your block.

[goodhue]

42. just getting started

http://www.kucinich.us/pressreleases/pr_011904b.php

"This is the beginning of the campaign," said Kucinich. "We've got 49 states left to go. The media had long ago predicted the winner of the entire process and even the loser of the general election, and tonight's caucuses have the pundits scratching their collective scalps in bewilderment. I moved from ninth place to fifth and won delegates despite the 15 percent threshold.

"The longtime poll leader dropped to third, which some pundits are erroneously crediting to Dr. Dean's status as an anti-war candidate. Dr. Dean did not consistently oppose the initial stages of this war and he has said that he will keep our troops in Iraq for years.

"As I climb higher in New Hampshire and each successive state, and as the situation in Iraq continues to worsen, Democratic support for peace will be reflected in my campaign's success. I predict a brokered convention in July. By the end of this month my campaign will have raised over $10 million, including matching funds, and I'm just getting started.

[redqueen]

44. LOL

"We've had some votes", have we? One caucus, and you think that's enough to drop the curtain? Wow, Democrats can be awfully quick to quit!

He doesn't know that he 'can't make it'. And I don't either, for that matter. He's heard that before, and proven the naysayers wrong.

And, sorry, but I'm glad he's saving us from having to focus on the 'real' candidates, who:

- want to keep us in Iraq for years
- want to keep us in the for-profit insurance system
- want to continue dumping tons of taxpayer money into the pentagon's black hole of waste
- want to relegate gays to a 'separate but equal' union with their loved ones
- want to keep on playing the same game of footsie with donors, so they can keep their millionaire status


I'll take the REAL candidate with the courage of his convictions, thank you very much. :)


"Few are willing to brave the disapproval of their fellows, the censure of their colleagues, the wrath of their society. Moral courage is a rarer commodity than bravery in battle or great intelligence. Yet it is the one essential, vital quality for those who seek to change the world that yields most painfully to change..."

RFK, South Africa, 1966

[youngred]

60. why what harm is he doing?

he's always interesting...sorry you want to silence the conscience of the party

[Terwilliger]

74. he's not doing any harm, Red

but what good is he doing if no one outside of those who would support him (a fleeting minority) are going to listen to him?

He has four or five BASIC political stands...none of them mesh with the mainstream of Democratic party political thought. Now, he can be a voice on the left bringing up things that they wouldn't bring up themselves, but to what end? So his positions can be marginalized by the others? So that they can find a way to compromise everything down to the nub?

"Single-payer healthcare?? That's GREAT (too bad we can't seel it...people won't support it) Thanks for chiming in, Dennis!"

That hardly seems like any relevant contribution.

[youngred]

80. he at least speaks for those who are marginalized

and if he can go to the convention with some delegates and influence the platform even a little, or get tapped for a cabinet position then hsi run is worth something. Even the smallest bit counts when dealing with Fascism.

and who else is going to speak for us?

[Terwilliger]

84. to what end?

"Yes, ladies and gentleman, Hitlerism is coming....listen to me go on and on about the eventuality of that as we sit and watch it together"

He needs to challenge the party establishment.

[youngred]

85. how woud you like him to do that

without burning himself out, while at the same time being viable? He isn't even viable now, but the further he goes, the more likely he is to get at least some attention

[Tinoire]

76. I'll thank you to let me decide for myself what a real candidate is

In my book, those "real" candidates you're talking about don't care about "real" people and their very "real" issues.

[Terwilliger]

79. just in case

you missed it, I asked something upthread

[dawn]

78. He *is* a real candidate.

I hope he stays in until the end! Good for him.

[citizen snips]

46. What time does the debate come on?

n/t.

[Kathleen04]

67. 8 Eastern

Faux News Channel.

[John_H]

51. Kucinich is a good debater. And, as his deal proves, a smart candidate

[redqueen]

58. Thank you

I really am not exaggerating when I say that this guy impresses me more and more with each and every action.

Just today, reading the 'oh heavens to betsy kerry said there were good parts of the patriot act!' thread, I think I may have seen another display of just how savvy he really is.

He knows (as anyone knowledgeable about intelligence does) that we did need some improvements to the law to ensure that criminals couldn't use advanced technology to get around the law.

However, isn't it possible that he also knew that it would 'sell' better if he opposed it outright? Is that why, rather than just try to 'trim around the edges' of something that has pissed off many, many people in this country, that he just wrote another bill, containing the needed parts?

Something to think about.

[MMT]

77. I look at Monday's partnering this way:

Here's Dennis, out in the middle of the lagoon, treading water. And there's Edwards, a political opponent, sitting in an inner tube but disabled and unable to make it move. If they don't join forces for as long as it takes them to get to shore, they both die. If they do join forces, they might both live. So should Dennis sacrifice himself and us to take out a political opponent?

The other opponents of Edwards and Dennis certainly want him to make that sacrifice! But why should he do what benefits only them rather than us? So that their supporters won't say mean things about him afterwards?

That's what Democrats have been doing too often. They've been sacrificing our interests so that opponents wouldn't say mean things about them.

I'm glad that Dennis always puts our interests first!

[dpbrown]

89. No, I'm glad Kucinich showed his political skill in keeping Dean down

It shows me that he can play with the big dogs in politics.

All the people who are trying to "make" something of Kucinich's one-time deal with Edwards are the same people who tried to "make" something of every other non-issue that came before.

"I really love Dennis but he sounds so shrill. Do you think that'll work against him?"

Straw man.

"I really love Dennis but did you know he flip-flopped on the war?"

Wrong.

"Do you think his deal with Edwards hurts him?"

No. Do you think that pretending that Dennis is "pure" and then attacking him for not being "pure" enough is an effective strategy for trying to tear Dennis down?

Just asking.

Fear Ends
Hope Begins
Kucinich 2004

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[Ficus]

93. shrewd by DK

Do all you can to bump Dean out ASAP.

You THEN become the anti-war candidate...the voice of the left without your message being stolen by Dean...shrewd.