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At least all Dean did was scream.

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KissMyAsscroft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 10:03 PM
Original message
At least all Dean did was scream.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
1. ah, yes. The war criminal charge again. He'll join great dems like...
FDR, Truman, JFK, Carter, and Clinton as presidents who those on the fringe left believe commited war crimes.
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meow mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
2. i think that article was slightly anti-clark
just an observation =)
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KissMyAsscroft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. But hey, Dean screamed so that ends things..


Can't take a little heat on your own candidate?

I don't remember FDR directing tanks at Waco, do you?

If a Republican did any of these things you would be screaming bloody murder, but "someone with a chance of beating Bush" did it so you guys all have erections instead?

But hey, he's been a Democrat for a couple of months now and Dean screamed so hey, it's all over except for the crying I guess.

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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. I don't remember Clark directing tanks at Waco, do you?
Were you there?

This is one of the more amusing smears, because it's not only untrue, it's ridiculous. The bottom line is this, from the Clark Sphere: "Clark was not present at Waco, nor did he plan, direct or authorize it. While observers from Delta Force were present, no elements of the First Cavalry were in operational control." You can find more below:

The Facts on Waco

Waco is Clinton's Bay of Pigs - an operation planned before he took office, and handed to his new AG. The tactical elements in charge had been selected before hand.

PBS compiled this timeline.

It takes the timelines from the two major reports - the 1993 report which had key omissions, and the later Danforth report. The FBI turned over to congress information relating to use of military shells, but did not highlight it, leading to charges of a cover up by Republican congressmen later. Waxman then documented that the material had been turned over to congress, but was buried among voluminous documentation.

This is the Department of Justice's first report on Waco and other materials.

It is important to remember that Clinton had been in office less than a month when the stand off started, and the action had been planned in advance. Reno was not even AG until March, and certainly had not had any time to even place her own people in charge. While the right wing likes to portray Waco as Clinton's fault - and Reno's - the truth is that the team doing the ground level work consisted of Reagan-Bush people, and at key points, it showed. Reno took full responsibility, which is what the person in charge should do - but let's not kid ourselves, ground level bungling made Waco what it was, and the people on the ground had not been put there by Clinton or Reno.

Both of these reports state that Acting AG Gerson ordered the military vehicles from Fort Hood, that they were driven by FBI tactical agents. That the only meetings with military commanders on strategy were not with Clark or other elements at Hood, but with US military Delta Force officers. Clark was ordered by McClarty on behalf of the Gerson to release vehicles to the operation, and, according to some reports train people to drive them. No members of the first cav were assigned, and Clark had neither operational nor advisory input on the matter. Both the Scruggs and Danforth reports concur on this point.

The military involvement at Waco has lead to wild speculation, and the conspiracy theorists urge to make everything one big glom - with their target du jour being the grand villain - has lead to Clark being thrown into the mix. However, Clark did not issue the tear gas, nor were any of his people present. The 40mm rounds were not issued by the First Cavalry. There were three Delta Force officers there as observers. Film included in the anti-Waco documentary shows that FBI agents were driving the tanks, and not military personnel.

The unforthcoming nature for years of the Clinton Administration did a great deal to damage the credibility of the initial report - and the concealment of evidence from Reno by the FBI lead to a reform at FBI by Freeh, who Clinton would later appoint as director.

The legal trail that Danforth pursued in his investigation is here.

Find law on the Waco stand off.

Bottom lines:

Clark was not present at Waco, nor did he plan, direct or authorize it. While observers from Delta Force were present, no elements of the First Cavalry were in operational control. The events of April 19th, 1993 were based on ineptitude of a number of FBI tactical agents, who repeatedly used ham-handed negotiating techniques, and possibly, a desire for glory hunting by those leading the siege. Many of the people involved in Waco were involved in previous questionable actions, including one sniper who was involved with Ruby Ridge in 1992, and who may have fired sniper rounds during the siege.

The record of Waco stands in stark contrast to the documented style of negotiations during Dayton and during Kosovo - clearly these operations were not conducted by the same people. Wes Clark has been adamant on a number of occasions that military hardware and personnel should not be used in law enforcement situations, they are too blunt an instrument. Waco stands in sharp contrast to the tactical doctrine of using minimum force that he taught prior to being a commander at Ft. Hood, and which he espoused afterwards as Southern Commander and then SACEUR.

While it is hard to prove a negative absent the government releasing logs of General Clark's wear abouts during this period, no reliable witness has placed him on the scene, nor is he mentioned in any documentation which has been released to the public."

http://www.clarkmyths.com/myth8.html
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KissMyAsscroft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. But hey, Dean screamed so that ends things..


Can't take a little heat on your own candidate?

I don't remember FDR directing tanks at Waco, do you?

If a Republican did any of these things you would be screaming bloody murder, but "someone with a chance of beating Bush" did it so you guys all have erections instead?

But hey, he's been a Democrat for a couple of months now and Dean screamed so hey, it's all over except for the crying I guess.

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Mz Pip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Dude
My candidate did not direct tanks at Waco. Check your facts.

BTW Were you even alive during FDR? What exactly do you "remember": about FDR?

MzPip
:dem:
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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 10:20 PM
Response to Original message
7. Locking
2. The subject line of a discussion thread must accurately reflect the actual content of the message.

Thanks,
DU Moderator
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