Lawmakers say farm cuts would hurt South.

[NNadir]

"Arguing that farmers and ranchers understand the need to reduce the federal budget deficit, new Agriculture Secretary Mike Johanns outlined a budget Monday that slashes government subsidies to American farmers while increasing spending for nutrition programs.




The frugal budget was immediately labeled a failure by some on Capitol Hill, where several lawmakers representing rural states said it unfairly targets Southern agriculture..."


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2027&ncid=2027&e=3&u=/chitribts/20050208/ts_chicagotrib/lawmakerssayfarmcutswouldhurtsouth

Boo Hoo.

How's supposed to pay for their tax cuts? Jesus?

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RC]

4. Don't bitch about the farmers with your mouth full.

The rest of the country is being setup to take a hit also.

[havocmom]

9. Second that! Also, maybe the left is being set up again... We laugh at

budget cuts for farm programs and the Right points it out to rural America, along with telling them "See, those elitist liberals hate you. We love you. Vote for us". Sure it's foolish for people to fall for that BS, but people do and we need to think about the dangers of gloating over other people's hardships. It DOES NOT win us friends nor win us elections.

Think about the consequences before you allow yourselves to engage in the sort of lifestyle warfare the RW leaders encourage in America. It is all to divide and conquer. Why help them beat us? :shrug:

[NNadir]

15. Look, the South is NOT voting Democratic. Ever. With or without

gloating from the left.

It's not like pretending to not gloat will ever get us anything.

In fact, because of the South, which is still pissed off about passage of the Civil Rights Act decades ago, very few of us will have the opportunity to vote Democratic. Ever. At least in such a way as to have our votes counted.

American democracy, which the South has been trying to kill almost since its beginning, is finally dead. The South had more than a passing responsibility for that happy outcome.

I am now living with the unhappy realization that the American People are about to get what they deserve. All of us. South and North. Still the Southern agragrian culture has been a prominent force in foisting this incompetant thief upon the rest of us. Fuck 'em. I for one am gloating in watching them reap what they have sown.

[QC]

18. Sometimes it's hard to know where to start.

But here's a try at getting at the most blatant piece of misinformation in this post.

"The South" is not a monolith. We're talking about the most populous region in the country, with about 100,000,000 people and more moving in, that stretches from the east coast into the western desert, from the Gulf coast to the Ohio River.

There are states in "the South" where we have no chance whatsoever and others where we can win. Even many so-called "red states" here have Democratic legislatures and governors. Considering that Southern states hold almost 60% of the electoral votes needed to win, we would be utter fools not to fight for those states we have a reasonable chance.

Whenever a person speaks as though there is a single, uniform "South," one can safely assume that they don't know much about the place. It's simply ridiculous to assume that that many people all think and act alike.

[NNadir]

21. Actually the electoral college makes the deal rather boolean.

The fact is that, looked at in this way, the South has been rather uniform in its support for Bush and Bushism. It does not matter of 24 million Southerners voted Democratic or zero Southerners voted Democratic; the result is very much the same.

Personally, although I voted against Bush and worked against Bush, etc, etc, etc, I fully accept responsibility for being an American in a time when the United States is behaving in a criminal manner.
I have no problem with Europeans, for instance, seeing all of us Americans as a part of a despicable culture, because we are, in fact, a despicable culture. It seems to me to be a rather useful shorthand under the circumstances: Americans have proved that they should be approached in general as rather duplicitious self serving liars, cheats, debtors, killers and bigots. Had we been uniformly approached as such for the last four years, a lot of internation tragedy (arrived and coming) could have been prevented. This of course would have been a good thing.

The same analysis held true for Germans after the Second World War; all Germans were stained by the events in which not all necessarily participated.

I am past the point of looking for cute evasions of responsibility for what is happening. I for instance am responsible for this mess because I am an American.

I have been saying since the election that WE deserve what we are going to get. I am not glorying in the pain that I and my family are going to suffer, but I am certainly happy that those who bear the most consistent in this pure boolean sense will share the pain.

By the way, who the fuck says I have an obligation to know or understand about the South? I'm personally tired of hearing about it. I'm personally tired, for that matter, of hearing all about Americans and their rationalizations, evasions, and distortions. While there may be 100 million Southerners, there are 6 billion people on the planet who are NOT Southerners, and more than 5.8 billion people who are not Americans.

You'd never know it to hear this talk, but people other than Americans are being killed in Iraq, for instance. It would seem to me that people who are suffering far worse consequences for Bushism than we are, even given our orgy of self-serving denial of responsibility, would be certain Iraqis.

[QC]

23. "By the way, who the fuck says I have an obligation to know ...

or understand about the South?"

Reasonable people expect that someone who makes a habit of pontificating on a subject actually know something about it.

And the issue is not washing one's hands of anything, or this past election. It's the next election, one that we will surely lose if we just hand the Republicans the majority of those 270 electoral votes without a fight.

If you want to see Jeb get his turn, and George P. get his turn, and so on, then keep pursuing that strategy of alienating voters.

[Bridget Burke]

41. Ignorance can be found anywhere.

Even in a Blue State.

Edited to add: But your profile doesn't indicate WHICH Blue State.

[American Tragedy]

31. Really, NNadir? Well, I have a very big fucking problem with it.

As I said in an earlier post, I am not proud to be American, but I'm not ashamed either. Like pride, guilt or shame can only legitimately emerge from one's own conscious actions and decisions. But being American is just an innate part of my identity, like my gender, or race, or ancestry.

Anyone who judges us based on our nationality is merely engaged in bigotry, and it's pretty sad that you don't see that. How can you blame someone for where they were born and where they and their family live? Fuck that. I'll take responsibility for what I've done, not for who I am.

[American Tragedy]

34. I do however, agree with you about the electoral college to some extent.

The electoral college has the extremely unfortunate effect of drastically polarizing the country, by effectively invalidating the votes cast by regional minorities in presidential elections. I wonder if Democrats in truly hopeless states wouldn't do better to consider relocating, for the sake of political strategy and of course solidarity.

[autorank]

38. NNadir, dude, your cookin!

:argh: Think globally, act globally. Many of us are in for a very rude surprise. The window until 'point of no return' on global warming has been shortened to as little as 10 years. That means in 2008 when the acceleration is undeniable (except by members of the Flat Earth Society, reactionary faction), we'll all be just begging China and India to cool down their economies so they don't toast us all. Yep, it's really happening, just like the Pentagon predicted about a year ago, global eco catastrophes are the greatest security threat to America in the coming 10-15 years.

[FreedomAngel82]

47. Very true

Tennessee has a democratic governor so it is possible. He also used to be the mayor of Nashville which was supposed to be "Bush country" (my mother was there sometime during the last part of the election campaign and saw signs proclaiming) but here in my town there were way more Kerry signs and bumper stickers especially in the downtown area. Kerry didn't do too bad but in 2000 Gore only lost by four percent. So some areas are definietly do-able. Just maybe more campaigning down there and not just one or two trips.

[Melodybe]

26. MS was 60%-40% R-D so you are saying that almost half of the population

of my state and I do not exist.

I am very proud that MS was gray longer than most southern states on election night, your post show that you have never been to the south and it makes me mad b/c people hurting is people hurting.

Black, white and hispanic farmers will all be hurt but this budget, gloatinng over anyone's pain is disgusting.

Instead of the whole it serves them right attitude, why not simply say that democrats do not support this budget.

[chi_girl_88]

27. But wouldn't it have the same effect

if they just got pissed off at the Republicans and either just didn't vote, or voted for some right-wing 3rd party which could spring up?

That was my first thought when I heard about the farm cuts - see, he screwed you, too. Too bad you gave him permission to do so. Psyche!

[FreedomAngel82]

46. I live in the south and

agree that a lot of people do deserve to see what BushCo really is. He's not for them and never will be. I've always said that it has to be some big "shock and awe" type of thing for them to ever open their eyes to Bush and his type of republicans. In some small way this could be a blessing in disguise for us democrast in 2006/2008.

[QC]

17. Unfortunately, gloating over the misfortunes of others

is now what passes for intelligent, constructive political discourse on this site.

[NNadir]

22. Nonsense. I am suffering this misfortune myself.

As stated in a previous post, I regret more that the denial of personal responsibility passes for intelligent, constructive political discourse.

I suppose the matter depends very much on whose eyes are doing the seeing.

[No Exit]

25. I like farmers. My great-grandfather was a farmer. What I do not like

is agribusiness.

If only the human person had half as many rights/privileges as the corporate "person" has today.

[rogerashton]

2. Land tax.

No, I'm not a believer in the old idea that a land tax is a panacea (Henry George). But a tax on land is less evil than most other taxes. Very large landowners have gotten most of the benefits of the agricultural subsidies over recent decades -- isn't it time to consider a tax that would be paid for the most part by the biggest landowners?

[blm]

3. No problem. The Lord will provide.

.

[illflem]

5. It's the epitome of dumbshitedness

that the USDA knows corporate farms cheat on subsidies and how they do it but decide to cut every farmer rather than close the cheating loopholes that are draining even more money from the program than cutting everyone does.
What the big guys do to beat the $360k limit per farm is break the farm up into several corporations to get several $360k allotments...

[Straight Shooter]

6. The farmers and rancher will pass their increased costs on to the consumer

This means we will all be paying higher prices for food, whether we're in the South or the North. Probably more in the North, since gas prices (freight charges) will be increasing.

Higher costs for food = less money to put into savings, and also less money to spend on other consumer goods, which doesn't sound like a very good thing for stimulating the economy, does it?

[RC]

10. No! What will happen is that

more farmers will go out of business and the big boys will buy up the land in bankruptcy. Penny's on the dollar.

[tsuki]

12. No, the middle man will pass on the higher cost to the consumer, but

buy from Mexico. American farmers are SOL.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sendero]

19. Exactly..

.... I'm sick to death of the same constituency that is so goddamned scared that some welfare mother is getting $190 a month that they vote for demagogues against the issue, and who at the same time are the beneficiaries of a huge corporate welfare system called farm subsidies.

It's time for hypocrites to get a feel of their own damn sword. And anyone who votes for someone like Bush** should not be surprised when he turns on them, he is only loyal to his "base", multi-millionaires.

[daydreamer]

7. Cut them all

Thank you farmers for voting for Bush! They have been on our teats for too long. When they are hungry, they can always go to those faith-based programs so they can vote for Rep. for life! Why the cap? I don't get anything from the government if my business fails.

[illflem]

8. You're generalizing, not all farmers voted for bush

why punish them all for the actions of others?

[sendero]

20. Because..

... I'm being punished for their actions! And it is a FACT that most rural voters voted for Bush. Care to try to disprove that one?

[AlCzervik]

11. Hey a lot of farmers here in california did not vote for Bush

and i bet you've eaten plenty of the stuff they grow.

[daydreamer]

13. Hey somebody has to give

if not Halliburton or arms dealers. Even people on food stamps are getting cuts. At least the farmers still have $350,000. I get nothing if my business fails. If they don't like it, they should march on the streets everyday against the war. Without the costs of war, we don't have to cut anything.

[RC]

40. Does your business buy Retail and sell wholesale?

Farmers do. Think about it.

[autorank]

39. I used to live where they grew it. It was great. But I'm very pissed

off that places like Fresno with 10% unemployment forever and tons of Federal enablement (e.g., water projects) goes Reupblican. Wake those suckers up and remind them of their Yellow Dog heritage.

[NashVegas]

16. Most Subsidies Benefit Large Corporate Farmers

The independents get next to nothing.

Away with them!

[No Exit]

24. Oh, dear! Archer Daniels Midland might have to sell one of its

Lear jets!

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[QC]

30. Can we fuck Ohio, too?

After all, they're the ones who put Monkeyboy over the top this time, thanks to racist voter suppression tactics that would have made Ross Barnett himself green with envy.

[liberal43110]

36. Sure

Hey, I live in Ohio, so please, by all means fuck it!!!!!! I approve! (Honestly.) And I moved here after living in Louisiana for 11 years so I've lived in the South too.

[American Tragedy]

32. Well, what about the various Western states Bush has in his pocket?

That entire region is glaringly Republican, yet never gets nearly the negative press that is affixed to the South. In general, Utah, Wyoming, North & South Dakota, Nebraska, Idaho, Oklahoma, and Kansas generated a higher percentage for Bush over Kerry than the Southern states.

[carolinayellowdog]

43. From reddest to bluest: 2004 Bush % by state

This shows where the real Republican stronghold is-- and isn't.

71 Utah
69 Wyoming
68 Idaho
66 Nebraska
66 Oklahoma
63 Alabama
63 North Dakota
62 Alaska
62 Kansas
61 Texas
60 Indiana
60 Kentucky
60 Mississippi
60 South Dakota
59 Montana
58 Georgia
58 South Carolina
57 Louisiana
57 Tennessee
56 North Carolina
56 West Virginia
55 Arizona
54 Arkansas
54 Missouri
54 Virginia
52 Colorado
52 Florida
51 Nevada
51 Ohio
50 New Mexico
50 Iowa
49 New Hampshire
49 Pennsylvania
49 Wisconsin
48 Michigan
48 Minnesota
48 Oregon
46 Delaware
46 New Jersey
46 Washington
45 California
45 Hawaii
45 Illinois
45 Maine
44 Connecticut
43 Maryland
40 New York
39 Rhode Island
39 Vermont
37 Massachusetts
9 District of Columbia

[American Tragedy]

44. I rest my case. The South is not the single greatest Republican region

To be sure, it's very close, and there is a degree of overlap, but those sparcely populated Western states seem to constitute the greatest concentration of Republican voters relative to Democratic voters in federal elections. This has been fairly consistent over the years.

[Bridget Burke]

42. But Ohio voted for Bush, too.

Aren't there any farmers there who'll reap what they sowed?

How is it different from the South? Aside from lacking good music & interesting food.

[sampsonblk]

29. Freedom isn't free, right?

Good, the poor idiots f*cks that wanted this war can now help pay for it.

Poetic justice.

[strategery blunder]

33. Poetic justice, maybe, but DUers will pay for it too

If not through a draft, then through a fiscal crisis when the debt comes due and the government can't find any Treasury buyers to "roll over" the debt.

There was a thread on DU about a week ago about China saying the dollar could no longer be considered stable...:scared:

[depakid]

35. Ten percent of farms receive 60 percent of the subsidies

And those 10 percent are not family farmers.....

This according to the National Review (which is not a publication normally inclined to rag on corporate agribusiness).

http://www.nationalreview.com/lowry/lowry200502080732.asp

This just goes to show people what they will get if they deal with Bush- a stab in the back....

[Skittles]

37. some of it is indeed a form of corporate welfare

but as someone pointed out, at least these jobs are in America. How about cutting out the corporate welfare for those corporations OUTSOURCING OVERSEAS? THAT would be a huge chunk of change.

[GOPBasher]

45. Well, the South voted for him, so this is justice. nt

[GRLMGC]

48. That's fucked up

Bush is an ass. Not only does he screw us, but he screws his constituency! I wish they would see this. They probably still think he's the greatest.