Official Gonzales debate thread - Day2 - CSPAN2

[sabra]

http://www.c-span.org/watch/cspan2_wm.asp?Cat=TV&Code=CS2

edit: title

[gottaB]

1. Call it the official Gonzales debate thread

Yeah, Durbin is solid.

[sabra]

2. Durbin: Let's review what we know

- Gonzalez said the Geneva convention doesn't apply to war on terrorism

[sabra]

3. Rummy approved dozens of brutal and inhuman tactics

[berner59]

7. Why aren't there hearings???

These are war crimes!! Keep saying it Senators!! Shameful that GOP senators are voting for this man...they should be held accountable in 2006 elections...

[ginnyinWI]

68. Germany has indicted him for war crimes

but they won't be able to get at him, (unless he accidentally goes to Germany?) The nation who lived through the Nazi era knows war crimes when it sees them.

[sabra]

4. Information Act exposed email

FBI agent speaks of the atrocities.

From memo:
- detainees chained with no food or water, for 18-24 hours, freezing cold, sitting in own feces, pulling hair from the unbearable situation.

And Gonzales saw this memo, and approved these tactics

[gottaB]

5. description of "environmental manipulation" by FBI agent

The Red Cross and the FBI agree that they are torture.

[realFedUp]

6. A vote for Gonzales is a vote for torture

but Senate Republicans have no moral values
anymore.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[realFedUp]

16. Welcome ap0c to DU

Well, I'm not sure Gonzales was directly
addressing the troops with his stand on
torture but certainly he was trying to
protect Bush and the Rummy War Machine from
being brought up in front of an international
court.

PS...use the check spelling button at
the bottom of your posts...it helps.

[gottaB]

8. A degrading policy-- great editorial

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36718-2005Jan25.html

[CWebster]

9. "what a pack of weasel words" nt

[realFedUp]

14. Yeah!

Happy Weasel Day!

[sabra]

10. Gonzales responds with ambiguous words

What a pack of weasel words, when it comes to the tactics of torture!

WOW! Go Durbin!

[CWebster]

11. Profile on Durbin:

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20050214&s=nichols

[sabra]

13. Twisting words to define torture...

[gottaB]

15. The Lieber Code

http://www.civilwarhome.com/liebercode.htm

What happened to the Party of Lincoln?

[realFedUp]

17. Have a group of judges stood against this nomination?

Do we have justice in this country anymore...
the one of laws and not the rightwing's God?

[annabanana]

18. Anyone know when the vote is scheduled? I want to watch Republicans

vote FOR torture! There should be no mistake that this is what they're doing. Durbin is making it clear.

[CWebster]

19. Gonzales as a Latino

So much as signing the death warrants on his own people, giving them 30 minutes on the day of execution, despite gaping problems with the cases...

What a good office boy he was.

[CWebster]

20. He is no Robert Kennedy...nt

[E_Smith]

21. "Gonzales is no Robert Kennedy!" n/t

[E_Smith]

22. Jeffords opposes nomination. n/t

[gottaB]

24. well well

whoda thunk?

[CWebster]

27. Well, he strikes me, if anything, an ethical man. nt

[CWebster]

23. Jeffords votes no! nt

[Sparkly]

26. I really admire him

That's a man who has the courage to follow his conscience. :thumbsup:

[paineinthearse]

25. Fillibbuster status?

Will there be no fillibuster?

[sabra]

28. Many will vote no, fillibuster unlikely...

[gottaB]

29. Bybee memo: There is one person who's not been at all critical of it....

brilliant

[E_Smith]

30. any chance a republican opposes? n/t

[12345]

32. I've been hoping that maybe that McCain, having been tortured

would appreciate the risks that our troops face now that we've declared international law obsolete...

Could be wishful thinking

[dandrhesse]

31. McCain was interviewed yesterday and he said he would vote yes!

[Clark2008]

35. That makes me sick

McCain WAS tortured.
He absolutely should heed his gut and experience and not the Republican Junta.

[LittleClarkie]

52. Remember that kiss on the forehead. I think Bush sucked out his soul.

That is just wrong.

But to agree I guess would be to agree with the John Kerry of 1971 that this is even happening with the government's knowledge.

How can the pubs argue that the Geneva Convention doesn't apply, and also say that the torture didn't happen because it was government sponsored. If it wasn't government sponsored, then why are they arguing against the Geneva Convention.

I'm getting dizzy.

[XemaSab]

66. Are you suggesting that

Bush is a DEMENTOR??????????

Escaped from Azkaban and going around sucking the souls of people opposed to the rize of Lord Voldemort?????????????

[ginnyinWI]

73. this is going to be looked at

as a very dark, dark time in our country's history. Very dark and blood-stained.
I hope it keeps our Dems on the Hill galvanized for continuing the good fight. History will look well on them.

[0007]

81. Another Bernard Kerik?


Whatever 'ya want boss!

[gottaB]

33. Rutland Herald? Was that what Leahy said?

No On Gonzales (Rutland Herald Editorial)

[realFedUp]

34. The argument shouldn't be why against nomination, but why for it?

The onus really should be on the Republican
side of the aisle as to why anyone would promote,
support, align themselves as a representative
of laws and the American people for Gonzales.

[gottaB]

38. Leahy's argument accomplished that

Now they're screaming. Outraged at the outrage. Blah blah blah. They are not arguing from reason.

[realFedUp]

40. yeah, just bring up his poor past again

Howabout some people with poor pasts
who still respect and follow the laws.

[Mist]

42. A big Rethug argument seems to be:

Gonzales had a hard-scrabble childhood, so he should get to be AG.

[realFedUp]

86. yeah, so did most Mob bosses....

[CWebster]

36. Oh, here is this offensive, sniveling, nasty, glinty-eyed jerk

He fits into that sterotype of the Southern reactionary prick. Sorry, but he does.

[sabra]

37. Don't be sorry, you are right :-)

[sabra]

39. I love how they call torture as misbehavor...

like it's really no big deal!

[burythehatchet]

41. Jeff Sessions is making a very convincing case on

this torture thingie.

[sabra]

43. Oh yeah!

Why should Gonzales be responsible? Why oh why!

[gottaB]

45. he almost completely lost it

"Gon....Gon....Gonza... uh...Abu Ghraib"

[burythehatchet]

47. this dude cannot find two brain cells to rub together

and form a thought.

[sabra]

44. Sessions: Don't the Dem senators care about how these allegations

are being perceived by our troops and the world? That the government condones the acts of torture. That's the whole point!

[CWebster]

48. Well, I heard some military head honchos

suggest that we shouldn't take this too far because exposing it increases risk to our soldiers and our soldiers would be limited in their ability to deal with insurgents and win freedom for Iraqis.

[CWebster]

53. He is trying to excuse Gonzales

...just mistakes.


"Politically correct" is opposing torture now?

[sabra]

46. Session calls terrorists, "a bad bunch", kind of like how * calls them

folks.

[sabra]

49. Session: they are not entitled to the Geneva convention!

Now he is trying to give some rationale to the actions. Sleep deprivation isn't that bad... Wow, how does this guy sleep at night?

[burythehatchet]

50. I'm guessing Sessions was born into wealth....

[sabra]

51. Now trashing Kennedy!

[E_Smith]

54. we didn't need a "politically correct" memo that restricted the president!

[gottaB]

55. Sessions: repeating the same deception

This time he cited the criminal statute defining torture without passing over the relevant parts, but he made it seem as if Gonzales' citation of that statute was complete. It was not. Gonzales only cited part of the language in the statute, although it was claimed to be complete.

Sessions used a similar deception in committee.

[CWebster]

56. Oh man....nt

[sabra]

57. Session: we have handled the prisoners humanly!

but then continues with a few exceptions. Wow this guy just amazing :-)

[CWebster]

58. he is digging that hole deeper...nt

[E_Smith]

60. here come the strawman arguments n/t

[paineinthearse]

77. Sessions is justifying torture.

[Pepperbelly]

59. Why doesn't SOMEONE discuss this bastards feelings on Habeas?

Remember, this asshole, from my recollection, believed that the President can do virtually anything during wartime including suspending Habeas.

[E_Smith]

61. how many times can he say "sneaky"? n/t

[RuleofLaw]

62. For someone who claims to be a lawyer, Session

knows shit about the law.

"Sleep deprivation is not torture"!

Idiot./ Torture is defined by its end result: "Intended to inflict
severe physical or mental pain or suffering..."

18 U.S.C.A. 2340.

So, if someone suffers severe mental pain from sleep deprivation, IT IS TORTURE!

Same if you explore an Innocent phobia of someone, like the fear of heights. Lets say you have a person who is afraid of heights. You then place him on a chair 3 feet above the ground. Now, to you and me that might sound pretty Innocent. But, to that person, it might cause "Severe mental pain", with lasting effects. Therefore that is torture!

So, just to have the description of the act, without an explanation of how it effects the prisoner is useless.

Senator Durbin told about a prisoner in a fetal position, chained to the floor, who had torn out clumps of his hair. Now, that might be as a result of Innocent playing of loud music. But the effects on him IS TORTURE.

Its amassing how they underplay the acts. When this all erupted we were told that there were thousands of pictures too graphic for the public to see. Now an I idiot like Sen. Session is trying to down play it. Make it sound like its just some rouge soldiers have fun at night.

It's disgusting!

[CWebster]

63. An another member of the bitter and patriarchial old man's club.

[cindyw]

64. Every time i turn this on I see longwinded Republican apologists.

When do the Dems get to talk?

[CWebster]

65. Leahy up

He stated that it was alternating - hour for pugs, hour for Dems.

[CWebster]

67. Reed of Rhode Island up next

He can be quite blunt.

[gottaB]

69. Well, he didn't call Gonzales a fool

He just said he lacked wisdom.

[CWebster]

71. his angle on the constitution is really good--

"The constitution is the final word, not the president.."

[Mist]

70. Reed of RI (Dem) on now

He got a nice bit of snark in: "To swear to uphold and defend the Constitution, as the pres. did, means you have to know what's in it."

[NewYorkerfromMass]

78. Good snark. Excellent snark. eom

[Skidmore]

72. Does anyone else think that * will throw a mini-tantrum during the

SOTU tonight about this confirmation hearing debate? I think he will try to play tough guy from that podium so if Gonzalez is confirmed he can swagger a bit. He's too vain and arrogant to resist it.

[kentuck]

74. Democrats should choose Constitution and law over Gonzalez

and Bush and the Republican right-wing radical machine.

[paineinthearse]

75. self-delete

[CWebster]

76. Read up thread a bit nt

[Skidmore]

79. This guy is good.

Painting * and his cronies as the war criminals they are.

[CWebster]

80. "I guess torture in the eye of the beholder?" nt

[gottaB]

82. Schlesinger, Fay (Jones) and other reports

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/hottopics/abughraib.php

http://www.do-what-must-be-done.org/do/crimes/iraq-ours/reports/

[sabra]

83. Orrin Hatch WTF? - that's all I have to say...

[cyberpj]

85. He seems so astonished that anyone is opposing - it's in his voice -

what an actor!

"We've worked with Gonzolez for 4 years!" -- Uh, Ye-ah! That's the PROBLEM!

[cyberpj]

87. Is the hatred of the president so bad that "they" transfer it to his

nominees?

Yes, Orin, it's all because we hate Bush.
It has nothing to do with advocating torture.

Awww... he personally resents it.
Too bad.
Sit down.

Now he's admonishing anyone who votes against Gonzoles and says "the people" ought to consider that.

Guess he's pushing for congress to stay republican forever again.

[adigal]

84. I think they know how bad they are looking

in the eyes of the world, if not american eyes. Otherwise, why would they keep bringing out their best speaker, Hatch? They are condemning themselves right now as the American party of Torture, the Republican Party.

[cyberpj]

88. Is it time for a new thread, this one's getting a bit long and they're

not doing anything else right now.......

[sabra]

89. New thread here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1557867

[sabra]

90. Allard - more of the same crap...

We are now hearing the life story of Gonzo... Do I see a pattern here?