Fowler SCALDED Washington Consultant Culture. He IS Grassroots

[KittyWampus]

Fact of the matter is, Donnie Fowler's speech yesterday on the DNC Chair platform was a scathing rebuke of the Washington Consultant Culture.

Fowler, for those who don't remember, worked on the Draft Clark movement and very vocally protested the Washington Insiders who came in and shunted the local and internet activists aside.

Fowler isn't 'channeling' Dean as some have commented. He has a very direct experience that's even closer to the grassroots political movement then Dean's.

And also keep in mind that the Draft Clark movement ACTUALLY STARTED from grassroots up.

It wasn't like Dean who got together some corporate money, hired Trippi and then worked to graft a grassroots movement onto his already existing Traditional Campaign.

Did Dean end up with a huge, committed and active group of activists across the Nation? Absolutely yes!

I am not knocking Dean or his campaign... just pointing out how things really happened and some of the history that indicates that Fowler is NOT a DLC plant, PNACer or some mindless schmuck that Washington Insiders are using to "Stop Dean".

I am not supporting Fowler... he's probably too young and brash (something Dean supporters ususally don't object to).

Hopefully my recollections will help cast some light on what Fowler might be able to contribute to the DNC and the Democratic Party.

[Skidmore]

1. The DNC won't care who says what and how scalded they are.

They stick their fingers in the wind and list to the right with the slightest breeze. Pardon the mixed metaphor. \

I don't understand how this group of people can look at the last decade and willfully set about doing just what they've been doing.

[genius]

31. He's to the left of Dean on the issues.

Fowler's father worked to overturn the Voting Rights Act of 1965 but Donnie Fowler (the DNC canidate) was not involved in that. Otherwise he is much more liberal than Dean and has a much stronger progressive background.

[JNelson6563]

2. Fowler is so out of touch it's scary

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=159x1595#1602

[SCDem]

9. I read your post

Julie.... is CC Fowler?

I too support Dean and have written to my DNC members but I live in SC so I think they are all or most of them (out of 6) will be voting for Donnie. Of course Donald Fowler is one of our DNC members and another of our DNC members works for Donald Fowler.

[JNelson6563]

16. Yes, Fowler is "CC"

in that post. That is Coordinated Campaign which was anything but. What a debacle. Ugh!

Julie

[KittyWampus]

21. Sounds Like Fowler Was The Middle Man... Between Washington &

you guys.

Perhaps part of the problem was his lack of experience (not knowing about phones).

Perhaps part of the problem was he had to deal with Washington telling him to get x, y and z done YESTERDAY while not wanting to give out the necessary staff, money or resources.

That's what he's basically criticizing.

[JNelson6563]

29. I don't think so

there were resources available but dispersement was sorely lacking. What we went through to get what was promised was terrible. It was really disorganized. Only when we issued threats of going over DF's head did things start to work out. The picture really looks more like a strategy to ignore the rubes up north. Where do I get "rubes"? Well when he came in person it was clear that's what he thought he was dealing with. All commented on it.

Julie

[Pirate Smile]

3. I hope Dean, Fowler and Rosenberg all end up working together either

within the DNC or as the DNC working with outside groups.

Frankly, there is so much work to be done, I think they all could be working over time within the DNC to try to catch up and pass the RNC.

But only one will be the chief dog and the question is if they could agree to an arrangement to do this.

[CWebster]

4. I think they would work really well together.

Fowler may be young and brash, but he is sharp and has fire in the belly.

[Tom Rinaldo]

5. I understand your point. A defense of Fowler can be made

against charges that he is a total establishment player with no appreciation of the grass roots. But why on earth must we yet again frame any discussion related to the DNC Chair through a prism of comparing Dean and Clark's campaigns? If your point is that Fowler was involved in supporting a grass roots campaign, fine, just make it. But you are reopening a useless wound with bringing up anything about comparing which campaign was a more pure grass roots effort than the other. It is tempting the gods around setting off another flame fest. Let's not go there.

No one can have a ghost of a chance in todays political world to win the Presidency without some major players and serious money being behind them. Both Dean and Clark had that too, along with the grass roots supporters. I believe that if Dean becomes DNC Chair it represents our best chance of swinging the pendulum further away from dependency on special interests to maintain the vitality and competitiveness of our Party. That is one reason why I support Dean. Perhaps Fowler would lead in that direction too, but personally I will go with Dean's track record on that.

[KittyWampus]

6. I Am Addressing DU'ers In General & Those BASHING Fowler

in particular. And 99.9% bashing Fowler are Dean supporters reflexively trashing someone they haven't even investigated.

That's seems pretty crystal clear from my post.

And there are historical differences THAT EXIST AND ARE RELEVANT to the discussion of both candidates Fowler and Dean.

Are you implying simply pointing out pertinent, historical facts is 'opening wounds'?

:wtf:

That's like saying pointing out Cheney's daughter is gay is an insult.
It's a damn fact. And it bore discussing in the 04 election because ONE party was actively campainging against gay people.

[Tom Rinaldo]

7. Not all facts are relevant

Pointing out that a physically deformed person is physically deformed might be considered factual also, just probably not helpful to anything. Don't get me wrong, a lot of what you posted is relevant to the extent that you are making a case that Fowler is not an establishment figure who opposes the grass roots. Showing what Fowler did and said in that regard is very relevant. Defending him against false charges in that or any regard of course is appropriate debate.

But some of what you consider facts is subject to subjective interpretation. Historical comparisons usually are. Clark is not running for DNC Chair, Dean is. You may not think that avoiding avoidable flame fests serves any productive end, but I do. That's all.

I have no problem whatsoever with your main point.

[KittyWampus]

22. I Didn't Even Mention Clark Except To Note That Fowler Worked On His

campaign (where he was unhappy with system) and also on the Draft Movement (where he worked WITH/AS grassroots).

I am familiar with Fowler because I followed/participated Clark's campaign.

If I had any knowledge of Fowler in any OTHER candidate's campaign, I'd post that too.

And since Dean supporters here are CONSTANTLY and very loudly implying that Fowler, Rosenberg are DLC plants 'channeling' Dean and without any working knowledge of grassroots/internet activism... pointing out that Fowler was PART of a 100% grassroots draft movement seem more than appropriate. Especially since Dean's grassroots were a hybrid and sprang from a traditional/corporate DLC-style campaign.

[Tom Rinaldo]

25. I made my point and respect yours

This thread has stayed pretty level so far so maybe I was wrong. What Fowler did and where he did it is of course relevant to any discussion of his seeking to be DNC Chair. I still hold to some of my concerns expressed above, but I am not trying to attack you.

[KittyWampus]

27. There's A More Iformative Thread On Fowler On Kos.. Link Below Thread

It'd be great to get more info not just on Fowler but all the candidates as well.

REAL info... like who they worked with, accomplished etc.

It's not helpful to just see the words DLC, Centrist bla bla bla slung about.

As for Fowler specificallly, his website doesn't even bother to go into much detail when it comes to his resume.

[JNelson6563]

18. You have yet to respond

to any of the three places I posted a link to my experience with Fowler's recent effort last election season. You aren't even reading the critiques and you are dismissing them as "bashing". How telling.

Julie

[KittyWampus]

23. Gee, I Had To Do Some Work. And I Just Did-See Above.

[JNelson6563]

28. It's just that I noticed you had posted subsequently

and on the same topic, but didn't reply to my answers for your call for evidence on Fowler (aka Foul-up). What's a girl to think?

Julie

[KittyWampus]

33. Evidence Of What? I Posted A Link To A Kos Discussion. I Posted What

llittle I could recall from Primary Season and some of it may not be 100% accurate.

But what I did NOT do was trash Fowler, call him this that and the other thing WITHOUT ANY FACTS.

And a multitude of Dean supporter have done just that. AGAIN. About yet ANOTHER Democrat.

And good for you for posting your personal ancedotal evidence. It's more than 99.9% of what your fellow Dean supporters EVER bother to do.

[Cheswick2.0]

8. first Clark did not start from grassroots

Clark's grassroots was all manufactured by DC consultants.

2nd, fowler was so bad at what he did for Clark he was let go.

3rd Fowler almost lost Ps in 2000 and if he had, florida would not have mattered. In fact if Fowler hadn't lost NH (how hard can it be to have a good ground operation in NH?) Gore would have just been reelected.

[Tom Rinaldo]

10. This post was so predictable

You know just like when the doctor has someone cross their legs then hits them on the knee with a hammer, you know the reflexive kick is coming. I will not argue with you about your "opinion" regarding Clark's grass roots support, I will just leave you with a link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=235x610

[Adelante]

13. "Clark's grassroots was all manufactured by DC consultants. "

You wish.

But what was Joe Trippi? Not a DC consultant?

[WI_DEM]

11. Why not write a pro-Fowler thread without attacking Dean?

[Adelante]

15. But how?

How do you discuss the race for DNC chair without discussing Dean? What's so wrong about contrasting the history of two particular candidates on the basis of what they have in common? Fowler is attacked in threads, Dean is attacked in threads -- but I don't see anybody being attacked in the OP. Cryingshame believes some campaign history has been distorted or forgotten, so she started a thread based on that belief. Not every critique can be considered an attack on Dean or open discussion on the issue of the day is seriously thwarted. This being a discussion board and all, that's a big problem.

[Adelante]

12. Good reminder, cryingshame

I do not consider it flamebait when the facts are presented fairly, so I would disagree with my esteemed buddy, Tom Rinaldo. Not that Tom would disagree with my premise, I know, but he is a peacekeeper at heart; (we love him for it). Nevertheless, none of us has a vote, so any discussion is theoretical, and as long as it's informative, educational and reasonably courteously presented, I can appreciate it, because not everybody on DU knows this side of the history.

Cryingshame, you have every right to tell it as you see it without it being interpreted offhand as part of an imaginary stop-anybody campaign, but you know this.

Let's face it, folks, we're all just yakkin' here.

[CWebster]

14. Something I am curious about

I admit that I was anti-the General, because I suspected he was introduced into the running by the meddling Clintons seeking to position their own interests, and Clark, like Powell, was just being the good soldier...

But also, I thought playing the entire militarism thing was questionable for the Dems at a time when they should be countering the war fever driven by nationalism.

But, I come from a Northern anti-military family, I would be curious to know if many of Clark's supporters were Southerners, who may have a tradition of militarism in their background, but were drawn to Clark because of his outspoken views against invading Iraq.

[Tom Rinaldo]

17. Not me. Northern anti war activist all the way...

March on the Pentagon 1967, Draft card burning etc. And it wasn't just "a phase" I went through either. I remained an anti war activist through Reagan and Bush I. Could have knocked me over with a feather if anyone told me someday I would be backing a General for President. But can I suggest that we move this discussion over to a more appropriate thread that is also running now?

"Question for the Wesley Clark supporters......"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1548301&mesg_id=1548301

[CWebster]

19. Okay, sure nt

[Tom Rinaldo]

24. I will say though that where Clark was raised had a lot to do with

why someone with his talents and idealism sought entry into West Point and devoted himself to service in the military. I think southern culture, coupled with the exact time window when Clark signed up, is very relevant in that regard. Had Clark graduated from High School in 1967 say, or grown up in New York, I wonder if he might have made different choices regarding his life calling. It is in his character to honor service, so I am sure Clark would have been a devoted advocate for making a positive difference somewhere, but I wonder if it would have been some where other than in the military. We will never know.

[Adelante]

20. That's a very interesting question, CWebster

I don't know the answer, being a Northerner who was drawn to Clark because of his outspoken views against invading Iraq, as well as his outspoken support of a multinational approach toward a diplomatic resolution with war as an absolute last resort, and his ability to forecast the very dismal outcome we have seen of nationalist invasion.

I hope some Southern Clark supporters do answer, because it is a very interesting question to me, too.

[Donna Zen]

32. Maine

Graduated from Kent State...in 1972.

[Sparkly]

36. Quite the opposite, in my case

Northern non-military family here. About as far from military as you could get (even though my father served due to the draft).

[KittyWampus]

26. Here's A Thread From Kos talking about Fowler if anyone cares.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/12/20/20127/013

Here's another perspective entirely on the guy:

"Why do you think he was on the Clark Campaign such a short period of time? Let's see....Wes Clark madee his decision late in the afternoon on September 15, 2003, announced on Sept 17, 2003 and Fowler resigned October 8, 2003. Why is his presidential campaign chairmanship even mentioned?

Leaving while publicly claiming to have been championing the 'rights' of the Draft Movement participants, the reality is that he was asked to take a secondary role...and he petulantly picked up his toys...went home AND TALKED TO THE PRESS ABOUT IT!"

[DaveinMD]

30. please stop attacking other Democrats

its wrong when backers of any candidate do so. We need to aim our fire outward, not inward.

[KittyWampus]

34. Who Are You Talking To? The Dean Supporters Who Can't Discuss

candidates without bashing or me for trying to actually bring up facts and records?

[LittleClarkie]

35. I don't care who sent him or who he's here to stop

The stories I'm hearing tell me he's a shmuck. We don't need a shmuck leading the party.

I want either Dean or Rosenberg, preferably both as chair and little helper monkey to the chair.