Are senators too afraid to contest the election because they don't know

[Nikepallas]

what would happen to our country- - due to the fact that something like this never happened in our history before OR are they afraid their actions will bite them in their own butt one day if they find themselves in the similar situation one day?

[Cobalt Violet]

1. Their affraid of biting their own butts.

They should fear more for our country if they don't contest the election.

[IndianaGreen]

45. Holding office is more important than saving the country

this is a very common condition that is found in the Beltway.

[jarab]

I haven't been convinced otherwise

that they all have so much shit on each other - both parties - and that's why they continue to amaze me with their votes and actions. We never know why a certain politician does a certian thing becauses we're not privy to the inner workings.
They're in the majority a bunch of whores and pimps.
...O...

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[grumpy old fart]

3. Will take incredible balls.....

Would need to be someone idealistic and secure....There are some of both, but I'm not sure of any with that combination....

[zann725]

34. Sounds like we need a Woman!

n/t

[tblue37]

55. Sen. Robert Byrd.

[signmike]

4. Retribution from * if it doesn't work

[Guaranteed]

5. The thing for me, and I think for a lot of Democrats, is that

we really just haven't seen the evidence to suggest that the result was anything other than how they've been reported (other than the early exit polls). I've seen supposed numbers of the final exit polls, but they've been reported so many different ways (or have they even been reported?) that I don't even know what to think.

What I want is for someone to come and say "Look- HERE are the numbers, the ACTUAL numbers, and HERE are the votes that WEREN'T counted, or were switched. THIS is what happened. And, what's more, THIS is how they did it."

I've seen numbers that seem odd, like the Diebold machines voting mostly Republican in supposedly Democratic counties in Florida, but there have been explanations offered.

People keep saying this all over DU, but I just haven't seen the evidence.

[Dr Fate]

8. No, that is not the reason. That is an excuse. Here is why...

We have HUNDREDS of examples of Bush & his cabinet telling lies- yet not one single prominent DEM goes on TV everyday calling Bush a "liar" like prominent Repubs did with the "flip flopper" phrase against Kerry.

The FACT that Bush is a liar is 100% true, which can be PROVEN with literally hundreds of examples- yet we dont see DEMS saying that either.

No, proof is not the problem-if it was, then "Bush is a liar" would be a household phrase just like the "flip-flopper" phrase became.

Fear, & corruption on the part of out Dem "leaders" is the problem-not lack of evidence or proof.

[Guaranteed]

13. I KNOW all that!

But where's the proof that he stole the election??

Trust me! I want to see it just as much as you do, but if it ain't there, I'm not going to go around saying that it was stolen. That would only destroy my own credibility.

[Dr Fate]

17. I hear you. I was making a larger point...

...and doing so in response to your post was perhaps a mistake, since we agree.

My point is that even when DEMS have all the proof in the world, they are still to scared of Bush & the media to actually go out on TV and tell the god-damned truth...

We DO have proof that there are literally hundreds of "glitches" and "irregularities" nationwide- yet no coordinated effort by DEMS to talk about this in the media and spur some interest.

Apparently, some "strategist" somewhere is telling them that telling the truth about Republicans is "too radical." Either that or they are corrupt or scared or both.

[Guaranteed]

18. Well, that's true.

IF our Congressional leaders knew of hard evidence that it was stolen, they're so freaking nutless I wouldn't bet on them making anything of it.

[Dr Fate]

19. We DO have hard evidence of nationwide voting "glithces & irregularites"

Yet no coordinated effort to even talk about investigating & reforming those problems either.

DEMS are too afraid(?) corrupt(?) to go on TV and make noise about investigating what is FACTUAL and known about voting "irregularites & glitches"- much less for talking about an investigation about what has not been loked into.

The BIG QUESTION is: "WHY???"

[IStriker]

31. WHY? Because we have evidence of "glitches & irregularities..."

in every single election we've ever had. Elections are not perfect. Unless an election is within 1000 votes (maybe more, maybe less depending on how many different glitches and irregularities there are and how significant they are) it will not make any difference to the outcome. 100,000 votes or more could never be overcome if every glitch and irregularity were investigated and remedied. And it won't make any difference in the next election because there will be different glitches and irregularities to deal with. The Democrats in the Senate know this and they are not going to make fools of themselves in a meaningless effort that will likely cost them the next election as their voters will think they are nuts.

[Dr Fate]

36. Did any of the said glitches favor Kerry?

I have no idea why you are suggesting we ignore problems with voting in THIS particular election.

DEMS would make "fools of themsleves" by telling the truth about the need for election reform?

Without an open investigation, you dont know if the irregularities would have tipped the scales or not.

I think MY vote should be counted regardless- and your excuse of "your vote could be thrown out in any election, so stop crying" ain gonna cut it.

Whose word are we taking here?- the media? The republicans?

The Democrats in the Senate really know all these things? Really? Did they go on the record or what?

They have not said one way or the other, have they?

Security in voting is still sacred to some of us "radicals" who think telling the truth is the best policy.

[Dr Fate]

40. I'm sick of being the party of excuses.

Save your excuses for somone who has not heard them already.

I want to be the party of ACTION, god dammit!

I've been active in the party for years, so save it.

DOC

[magellan]

54. Oh really?

IStriker: 100,000 votes or more could never be overcome if every glitch and irregularity were investigated and remedied.

I find this an extraordinarily bold statement to make in light of all the information out there. Who in the world can know for certain how many "glitches and irregularities" occurred?

1) The reported incidents only represent those noticed by voters.

2) There's no way to ascertain if the votes on paperless machines were counted properly.

3) No one knows how many legal voters were denied their right to vote through error or unfortunate happenstance.

Note I haven't even introduced the 'f' word into things. So I find your assertion unsupportable. NO ONE can say with an ounce of authority how many votes could or could not be overcome. That's why an investigation and remedies are absolutely essential.

[IStriker]

58. All I'm saying is that in 2000, everybody was shocked...

that Florida was a voting disaster. Some of the most populated counties where big numbers of people voted had all kinds of "glitches and irregularities" (and I'm NOT including fraud of any kind in that category, just people errors, machine errors, etc.) The press in this country combed through Florida's ballots for months post-election. In the end, they agreed with the elected officials in the counties, a lot of whom were Democrats, that mistakes occur in every election and unless the vote is very close, the errors will not effect the outcome of the election. We are not going to have an error free election EVER because people are involved and they are not infallible. I had never considered this and I am certain most people had not until this razor-close election exposed it.

As to fraud: I am maintaining an open mind on this. Until somebody shows me proof, not allegations, I will remain neutral on how much occurred in Ohio. Fraud could change the outcome in a millions of vote election, not only in a close one.

As to paperless voting machines: I do not believe they should be used. I want a way to recount and to see who voted and how. I have heard that NO e-voting machines were used in Ohio. I do not know if this is true or not. I have seen posts on here claiming they were used, but again with no proof.

[Dr Fate]

60. Did any of the "glitches & irregularities" favor Kerry?

Thats a good starting point.

What would be wrong w/ a top DEM going on TV and asking this question?

[IStriker]

63. I don't want them to ask the question; I want them to answer it...

If they can't answer the question that every single glitch & irregularity was in Bush's favor, not a single one favored Kerry, then they are wasting TV time trying to show that glitches and irregularities were anything but glitches and irregularities. If there is to be any credibility to the charges of fraud, this question better be answered before they start throwing around accusations and make fools of themselves.

[calimary]

37. Amazing how they shrivel and shrink away from the "Liar" word

as though they were snails facing the salt shaker.

[Dr Fate]

38. It must be because they are liars too.

The Republicans must "have somthing on them." All of them, apparently.

THAT must be the "reason" why our "leaders" refuse to fight back.

[Mist]

41. I think they're bought by corporate America

just like the Rethugs. Plus, they're comfortable where they are--why rock the boat?

[Dr Fate]

42. But they are losing their seats in every election...

...so they are really not that comfortable where they are.

Corporate America would MUCH rather have Repubs in their places as well- surely they know this.

Im not so sure that is the answer either- but somthing sure is f*cked up.

[NMDemDist2]

9. BGL that is the whole point, to actually GET the evidence and see what

it says

until we have an inquiry, we are all just guessing

[forgethell]

14. And yet, without at least some

credible evidence justifying an inquiry, there will be none. By "credible", I don't mean what is credible on DU, I mean what will hold up in court, or at least justify a warrant, somewhere. So far, we just haven't got it or a court would have done something.

[NMDemDist2]

20. put it under the guise of the HAVA act. Oversight (to see how the

states did with HAVA) is Congress' job, is it not?

Start there and check out why with all the HAVA $$$ voters in OH had 6 hour long lines. That is enough to start an inquiry to me :shrug:

they have investigated the Dems for less. LOL

It is a civil rights and states accountability for Federal money issue, it would seem to me.

edit to add: Watergate took two years to unravel on Nixon

[forgethell]

26. And yet,

it's been FOUR years, and 2000 hasn't unraveled on Bush. Maybe we're just up against smarter people.

[Debs]

29. There IS credible statistical evidence

While that might not hold up in a court of law as proof, it should be enough to warrant investigation

[forgethell]

51. Evidently not.

And I have reviewed some of it, and it seems pretty flimsy to me.

Still, I am anxiously awaiting further developments, not that they will prevent the inauguration of Bush.

[bobbieinok]

52. a republican court?????

[forgethell]

57. Courts are

supposed to be non-partisan. There are some Democrats on the bench. But OK, what do you suggest, the ICC?

[Guaranteed]

15. So, all that we're shooting for here is a simple enquiry?

Or inquiry, or whatever?

Don't we at least need some evidence to suggest some kind of cause? What would we use for that, the exit poll numbers?

[NMDemDist2]

21. see post above (#20) n/t

[gristy]

10. plausable deniability

The criminals of the ruling class have perfected its expression. That's why they are where they are.

[peacetalksforall]

11. Please. You are not speaking for me.

The array of fraud is unbelievably vast. The timeline of fraud is equally vast - pre, on, and post Nov 2. And the cable and network honchos are accomplices.

[Guaranteed]

16. Then show me.

I WANT TO KNOW.

I already know that the news networks had some foul-ups, deliberate or otherwise, in the numbers on election night. I was here, and I witnessed CNN changing their polling numbers.

And, like I said before, I've heard about some odd demographical reports.

Can you give me specific things, hard numbers, to point to?

[NMDemDist2]

24. take a look at this thread from the Homepage....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x215277

[Guaranteed]

28. THAT is a great start.

Gimme a bit to have a look...my Mac isn't even showing the numbers right.

[shance]

25. Have you actually looked at the issue or have you expected to have it

be fed to you.

Pardon me me for the bluntness BGL. I know you have been around for a while, Ive appreciated alot of your threads and Im surprised to hear this coming from you. Have you honestly not been keeping up?

The information and facts are out there. You just have to make the time and the interest to learn more about it. You will never get the evidence and/or the fraud 101 HERE IT IS indict us now manual, because the private voting companies dont make that one, (however Diebold just settled out of court here in California on a voting case)and because they have now taken fraud to a whole new level with the electronic trojan horses.

Also, we now have our vote privatized by 2 (or more) Republican owned companies, ES&S and Diebold. As far as voting fraud and the ease with which it can occur, there are many times within the voting process where the electronic voting machines can delete alter, manipulate, shake, bake, dice and slice all voting data with the touch of a button and out of the sight for anyone to see. Fraud without fingerprints.

I hope you will be willing at some point to accept the reality based on insurmountable, consistent patterns of evidence that our election system has indeed been hijacked. I hope you are not more willing to see our country in the history books as the last great Democracy that was brought down by the Bush/Cheney/PNAC regime, oh yeah Diebold, Elections Systems and Software, Triad, and Sequoia.

Do the research BGL. Your Democracy is worth it.

[dannynyc]

46. The Ohio recount is enough to postpone an Electoral Vote

The recount process in Ohio violated the process prescribed by law - the precints to be counted were not chosen at random, when a hand count did not match the machine count a complete count was not done in many counties. So, until the Ohio recount is done in accordance with Ohio's recount law, there is a reason to postpone the Electoral vote.

Also, there are several investigations in process. Ken Blackwell has refused to comply with a subpeona to testify regarding the election. There is another open question which needs to be resolved before an Electoral election occurs.

Will any of these issues change the outcome? I don't know. But, there are valid reasons to postpone the Electoral election until these issues are resolved.

[Debbie13]

6. They should be more afraid of what it's going to do to our country

I'd bet anything that a lot of the Republican winners won by voter manipulation, too.

[Dr Fate]

7. Hell, they cant even call Bush "corrupt" or a "liar" -which is 100% true.

If DEMS refuse to tell the truth about Bush, what makes anyone think that any top Democrat can tell the truth about anything else, much less the election?

If DEMS could have gone on TV and spoken a few simple lines of truth about Bush, it would have been a landslide that no vote fixing could have counter acted.

No one on DU or anywhere else can explain to me why top Democrats are too corrupt/dishonest to speak a few lines of honest truth about Bush & Republicans. It's awful and shameful to me...

[catbert836]

12. They're afraid because

they don't want their political career to be over- which would probably happen if they stoods up. We need a senator with nothing to lose.

[Dr Fate]

61. Just ask Max Cleland or Tom Daschele how well that works.

The DEMS who lost their seats in '02 & '04 were singing that song.

Slowly but surely, all of their political acarrers will be over if they dont start fighting and telling the truth about Republicans.

I agree that many DEMS have been applying your logic- but I disagree that it is working.

Just ask Max Cleland or Tom Daschele

[KSAtheist]

22. Maybe...

They know something that you don't.

[itzamirakul]

23. Everyone is on the "take." n/t

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud patriot]

30. I hope they know we have all thought about this too

IMO The Constitution is worth it .

I hope more than one Senator knows this .

[DistressedAmerican]

32. Name one that has the courage to commit

political suicide like that. It would have to be someone going out of their own accord at the very least!

[peacetalksforall]

35. Why do they even want to be a representative if they have to

fear for everything.

I will be curious what Mark Dayton does...I believe I heard he is going to run again We also heard today that Dobson has tartgeted him.

I expected more from the tough New Yorkers - Shirmer and Clinton. What a disappointment. Not so tough.

Am I cruelly attacking them?

[DistressedAmerican]

39. No attack on spinelessness for political gain

is ever cruel! I for one will cheer when I find a single career politician that I can stomach for long. The fund raising keeps them terrified. Where are the Profiles In Courage today?

OK, I'm still lovin' Wes Clark. But, why New Hampshire and not Iowa, I will never know. On the other hand his non-career politician status appealed to me so maybe it is apples and oranges.

[Yupster]

47. Why be a representative at all?

For the great benefits.

The lobbying jobs for your relatives.

The insider info on business deals to get into.

Lots of good reasons.

[tblue37]

56. Se. Robert Byrd.

Write him.

[zann725]

33. They're afraid of retaliation...professionally and personally.

That's why they need to stand up in large numbers.

[Silverhair]

43. Because they don't want to look like kooks.

Outside of DU and similar groups, (And even some DUers have posted that they think that W really did win the election, and were heavily flamed) most of the general public, and the MSM hold the belief that W really did win. They consider only internet kooks to be believers of the stolen election meme.

Any senator that challenges the seating of a state's electors, claiming voter fraud, will look like a kook the the general public. Sorry if that offends anyone, but that is a fact. No politican wants to look like a nut case. And since he would be a Democrat making the challenge, it would be extension, make the whole party look like kooks too if the party gave him any support. So it would appear that the party leadership has let it be known: "Don't say anything."

[Dr Fate]

62. Telling the truth is "too radical"

Wow- I'm so proud to be a member of such an honorable organization.

"Dont tell the truth-the same "credible" media and Republican party who told us Saddam had WMDs people will make fun of us."

Wow- thats REAL leadership.

[Silverhair]

44. It has happened before. Sometime in the 60's I think.

I don't feel like looking up when the challenge took place.

Anyway, noting much will happen if there is a challenge. The two houses hold separate debates immediately, and in TWO HOURS, no delay tactics, no filibuster, in TWO HOURS, they vote. To reject the electors, BOTH houses must agree to reject them. One house votes to accept, and they are accepted.

So if there is a challenge, it will be for theather only. It won't have a real effect on the outcome. W still gets another term.

[Yupster]

48. It happened in 1876 for sure

That election was truly stolen.

A deal was made for the Democratic leaders to accept the stolen presidency in return for the new president pulling the federal troops out of the south ending Reconstruction.

There have been plenty of vote stealing in our history.

Tammany Hall comes to mind right away. There was Boss George Plunkett with his eloquent writings differentiating between good graft and bad graft. Then there was Boss William Tweed with his quote about how it's important to know the law, but more important to know the judge.

There was the old Cubs announcer Harry Carey who said he wanted to be buried in Chicago after he died so he's still be able to vote.

[Silverhair]

49. I was talking about a challenge to the EC from a senator.

The current law on challenges was written well after the election you are talking about.

[OneBlueSky]

50. the REAL answer lies in five letters: M . . . O . . . N . . . E . . .Y

what Senators (and Congressmen, for that matter) are MOST concerned about is that they will lose access to their corporate sponsors and to their corporate contributions . . . our corporate masters don't like it when democracy rears its ugly head -- it threatens the near total control of things they currently enjoy . . . any effort to upset this control will not be looked upon kindly by the corporatocracy, and those who precipitate or support said upset will be ostracized by the corporate masters . . . for example, while there may seem to be no direct correlation, Hillary Clinton standing up with Conyers would very likely jeopardize her considerable support from the banking/credit card industry . . . and that's something she's not likely to risk . . .

when something as pervasive and as blatant as the vote fraud that too place in 2004 is not contested, or even examined, by Democrats, you can bet that there's only one factor powerful enough to prevent them from acting . . . and that factor is M . . . O . . . N . . . E . . . Y . . .

[sampsonblk]

53. Maybe they are still hoping to get swing voters

Yes, I am disgusted.

[w4rma]

59. They're soft and lazy. They know they'd have to do extra work if they

stood up for American values. It's much easier to do what the corporatist lobbyists tell them to do.