Debunking Sirota

[FightinNewDem]

"It seems to me that David Sirota's latest attack on the DLC and other "centrists" is in need of a response. The problem here is not that the things he says are popular are not, in fact, popular. Rather, the problem is that he's gone off and created a straw man here, attacking the nefarious DLC for positions it doesn't hold"...

"There are some real disagreements about policy and tactics here, but they deserve to be debated calmly and, above all, honestly. Sirota's attacks are growing increasingly vitriolic and wind up having increasingly little to do with the actually existing DLC and its real merits and flaws".

http://yglesias.typepad.com/matthew/2004/12/debunking_debun.html


"Sirota goes on to list a lot of other red-state Democrats who have succeeded by defying the "corporate/DLC argument," and most of them are actually politicians with long-standing close connections with the DLC: Ken and John Salazar of CO, Janet Napolitano of AZ, John Spratt of SC, Eliot Spitzer of NY, and Stephanie Herseth of SD".

http://www.newdonkey.com/2004/12/code-red.html

[Warpy]

1. The only people who buy this stuff

are right wingers who consider themselves centrist. That the DLC isn't as far right as Dumbya doesn't make them centrist. They're still righties, corporatists, anitlabor, and should be shown the door.

They can't manage to take Congress back for a damned good reason: the voters already have a Repuglican party. They don't want GOP-lite.

[FightinNewDem]

3. Wake Up!!!

Wake the F@#% up, will you?

Read the damn web site. Learn what the DLC's actual policy positions are.

Here is a challenge. Tell me the DLC position on energy policy, education, taxes, the deficit, etc., and then I will view your rants in a more credible light.

[madfloridian]

4. I have read many articles there.

I have done a lot of research about the group. I find there are some things I agree with, but the general direction of this bunch is dangerous for our nation. They have enabled the corporate takeover of this country. That is not ok with me.

I think we who are not fond of their stances are not the only ones who need to wake the ***** up.

[madfloridian]

2. The New Donkey IS the DLC....it is the blog for the group.

Of course they will defend it. Look on the right hand side of the DLC website.
www.ndol.org

It has a section called the DLC blog zoo. There you will see The New Donkey and the Bull Moose Blog. They are both DLC. I can not think of the name of the guy who writes New Donkey...will look it up.

The Bull Moose blog is very good at times, but just remember who Marshall Wittman is. He is a new DLC person, was McCain's campaign manager. Before that he was a lobbyist for the Christian Coalition, working closely with Pat Robertson.

Just think of all the connections. People often change stripes, but we need to cautious.

[paulk]

5. you do realize your wasting your time?

it's kind of funny... I find myself defending the DLC from the nonsense thrown at them here on DU - and I don't even like them that much...

[Walt Starr]

6. So I should believe the DLC when they talk about the DLC?

Fuck the DLC. I won't vote for a member of the DLC EVER.

[paulk]

7. just curious

did you actually read the articles?

Or do you just let out a generic rant every time you see "DLC"?

[madfloridian]

8. They have hurt our country with their influence on the party.

You may think that is ok, I don't. I read extensively there, and I don't flippantly post things against them. They are hurting us, and they need to go.

[paulk]

9. they don't need to go

anymore than the DFA needs to go.

They are both tools to help put Democrats in office. This purge mentality has got to end if we have any hope of defeating the Republicans. The Republicans are the bad guys.

When you say "us", you are not speaking for me or millions of other American voters. I don't think neither you or I gets to define the Democratic Party.

The DLC influence on the party has won elections for the Democrats at every level - whether you agree with them or not. One of Dean's dozen, Ken Salazar, is an honorary chairman of the Third Way, a DLC offshoot - so even Howard Dean sees the usefulness of the DLC.

[madfloridian]

10. I don't want to purge them.

I want to diminish their influence. You can name every one who is a member, and that does not matter. Some have backed away from them as they have seen that the agenda was too slanted to the right.

Dean was a member when he was governor, Gore helped found it. Neither of those two good men are acceptable to the DLC now. Why? Because they criticized them and attacked their agenda.

Bob Graham was a founder, but he is slowly evolving in his views. He crossed them on the Iraq war, and they did not like it.

Their support of the war is the face of the corporations they represent. They still defend it.

They do love to make fun of the anti-war folks, and they do it so snarkily. They appear to enjoy doing it, and I find that offensive when our soldiers are dying. Don't you?

[paulk]

11. well, Al From is a jerk, there's no denying that

but he's not the whole of the DLC. So... I don't go along with the "they".

[madfloridian]

13. I do, when they vote with the right wing agenda.

And they do. They are going along with Bush's plan for privatization of SS and Medicare, knowing the destruction. They went along with the war, far too many of them.

Lots more, but I am just tired tonight. I have lost a lot of hope lately.

[eridani]

12. I don't want to purge them either

I just refuse to support them. If DLC retains control of national leadership, that's the end of my money and time commitments, period. My support will go to issue groups, local Dem organizations, PDA and DFA.

[Walt Starr]

15. We've got a name for DLCers in my parts.

Republicans, and I treat 'em that way.

[Walt Starr]

14. Why should I read the articles?

IT's a DLC website.

[paulk]

16. so you might actually know what you're talking about?

is that too hard for you?

the articles debunk Mr. Sirota's articles rather well and this thread is about Mr. Sirota's articles. But maybe you missed that, since you were in such a hurry to just bash the DLC.

[Walt Starr]

17. I've already read all the bullshit written by DLCers about the DLC I care

to.

I've made up my mind. Reading their propoganda is the same as reading the propoganda out of the White House!

[paulk]

18. you've made four posts on this thread

a thread which is a discussion of two articles which set out to debunk two articles written by a David Sirota -

Democratic Underground is a discussion board - at least that is the stated intent - people come here to discuss things - to exchange ideas - and yet you see fit to post four times on the subject while admitting that you haven't even read the articles?

What's your point Mr. Starr? Why are you posting here?

Most people I know don't advertise their ignorance - you seem to think it a virtue...

[Walt Starr]

19. I'm posting here because the agenda of the DLC is clear

They are out to destoy the Democratic Party, and doing a damn good job of it, I might add!

[paulk]

20. how is working to get Democrats elected

destroying the Democratic Party?

I won't defend everything the DLC stands for, but the blanket accusations you make are nonsense, nonsense based in a profound ignorance of who and what the DLC are.

An argument could be made that your no-nothing attacks on the DLC are doing an equal job of destroying the Democratic Party.

BTW - the yglesias blog has no affiliation to the DLC, contrary to your prior claims

http://yglesias.typepad.com/matthew/2004/12/debunking_debun.html

why don't you read the article?

[Walt Starr]

22. Yeah, Democrats like Zellout Miller

:eyes:

They have rightwing nutjhobs from the Christian Coalition telling them how to act. If I wanted to vote for shit like the DLC, I'd vote Republican, which is why the fuck they are the Democratic LOSERS Committee.

[paulk]

23. Once again I have to ask if you have even read

the Marshall Wittman article you cite. Mr. Wittman is no longer a Republican or member of the Christian Coalition. He has seen the error of his ways and is now working to get Democrats elected.

He makes some valid points in his article - the chief being that if the Democrats hope to regain power they will need to build coalitions, much like the Republicans were able to. Mr. Wittman (and the DLC) feel that the Democratic Party needs to become a bigger tent.

You, on the other hand, seem to think the path to victory lies in stripping the party down to fit into your own narrow ideological vision - a vision that excludes people like Marshall Wittman. And many millions of other voters as well. You are not interested in coalitions, compromise, or , apparently, winning elections. It's your way or the highway - and your attitude, far more than the DLC's, is what is responsible for losing elections.

Why?

Because you are just as willing to turn your knife on your own side as the the other.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Walt Starr]

21. Oh yes, let's trust a group that has Rightwingnut Christian Coalition

nutjobs writing bullshit for their site:

http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=127&subid=171&contentid=253075

DLC | Blueprint Magazine | December 13, 2004
Back From the Brink
Newt Gingrich had an audacious plan to lead Republicans out of the political wilderness. Democrats should study it.
By Marshall Wittmann


<snip>

I had my own experience with being thrust out into the political cold and then participating in a stunning comeback. Having served in the George H.W. Bush administration, I found myself unemployed after Bill Clinton's victory in November 1992 -- a difficult time to be an unemployed Republican, because Washington was completely in the grip of the Democrats. Consequently, I became creative in my job search and gained a position as the legislative director of the Christian Coalition. When I began my new position with the religious conservatives, I thought I could not be farther away from the locus of power in Washington. Little did I know, I was to be part of an extraordinary political insurgency that has now made the Capitol a bastion of conservative and Republican hegemony.

</snip>

Yeah, I'm going to go along with this bunch of Republicans trying to drive the agenda of the Democratic PArty.

The DLC is a MOLE organization bent on the destruction of the Democratic Party. Purging is too good for 'em, and before anybody bitches about me using the "p" word, these assholes in the DLC started the purge bullshit!