The Electoral College is KILLING us and it has to go!

[mtnsnake]

I'm a northern NYer, but I realize that there are some places in the Deep South that are more liberal than some places in the Northeast. I've heard that there are areas in California where it's more likely that racial profiling will be used by cops than it is in many areas of the deep south. The electoral college does not reflect any of this, and IMO contributes as much to keeping this country divided as what Chimpy himself does.

People are bandwagon jumpers. Everyone wants to be on a winner. All it takes for many of the "ignoramus" segment of the population to vote for someone as despicable as the Chimp is one look at the red states/blue states map, a map that is a by-product of the electoral college voting process, a process which the Bush Regime is ENJOYING TO THE MAX and using as one more of its many tools to keep this country even more divided than it already is.

Imagine a map that was a TRUE reflection of this country's attitudes....a map that showed a fair blend of red and blue for almost every state, instead of a map which shows a TOTALLY DISTORTED picture of what's really going on. Oh how that plays right into the hands of the Republicans nowadays.

Civil war as we've experienced it must never happen again. However, with the abolishment of the Electoral College, MAYBE peaceful revolution from WITHIN each and every state would be a more distinct possibility towards our goals.

The Electoral College has GOT to be abandoned. It's creating division where there doesn't need to be any more of it. It's a frigging DINOSAUR that is eating us alive, and we have got to come up with something to make it go away. Elections need to be decided by the people, not by red or blue states where you have so many states RAILROADING the ideas of fascists like Bush down their inhabitants' throats for reasons of red and blue. Any ideas?

[ColumbiaCowboy]

1. Any ideas?

Yeah.

I have the idea that the Electoral College is a vital part of how our nation works, is NOT to blame for the problems our Party has, and needs to be left alone.

[mtnsnake]

4. I hate the electoral college almost as much as I hate the chimp

himself. I hate the fact that if you live in North Carolina you're considered a "red stater", whether you're a liberal or not, and I hate the fact that if you live in a blue state, you're made to look like you're not capable of being patriotic in the eyes of so many idiots. So much of this bullshit is a direct result of this fucking electoral map that keeps getting rammed down our throats.

[Goldmund]

7. Thanks for the dogmatic response

Now please say WHY you think this. You know, REASONS, pro and con. Analysis.

[tanyev]

12. Yeah? Well, Bushco was ready to challenge

the electoral college in 2000 if they had won the popular but not the electoral. I almost wish they had. We got stuck with him anyway, but if they had managed to get rid of the EC, they wouldn't ever be able to use it again, either.

[forgethell]

2. The red/blue

divide looks worse by county than by state. It actually seems to be more an urban/rural divide than anything else.

That being said, write your congressman and senators and demand they introduce a constitutional amendment to eliminate the electoral college, if it means that much to you. Good luck!!

[bowens43]

3. Bush didn't win because of the electoral college (this time).

Let's not blame our problems on our Constitution and method of selecting a president. We lost because of voter fraud, the ignorance of the average American and lies and distortions perpetrated by the bushies and the press.

[regnaD kciN]

6. That's right...

Because of the EC, if we could turn up around 140,000 new Kerry votes in an Ohio recount, we win. If the election were based on popular vote, we wouldn't have a chance.

[Goldmund]

9. IF that is so,

then we deserved to lose.

Except, without the electoral college, many more people in NY and CA would have showed up to vote... The local issues and attitudes of sparsely populated, but disproportionally weighed (in terms of EV) red states would have been given less attention and the attitudes of urban blue-state population more...

In addition, a third (or fourth) party would actually have a chance without the EC, and that alone would make for a much different campaign.

Can't compare apples and oranges. It would be an entirely different world.

[mtnsnake]

11. Since you're blaming it on voter fraud, then that's all the more reason

to abolish the electoral college. The process we have going on now makes the system just as much vulnerable to voter fraud WITH the electoral college as without it. With the electoral college, I would think it's even easier for abusers to hone in on one or two key states that could swing an election their way.

I'm tired of voter fraud being used as the catch-all end to every argument. Even if fraud did swing the election, it's not likely that there would be less fraud without the electoral college in place.

[cally]

5. I hate it, I just don't see a way to eliminate it

The electoral college benefits smaller states. They will never vote for a constitutional amendment to give more weight to the populous states. We're stuck with it.

[mtnsnake]

18. There are ways to eliminate it. We just have to make up our minds

to do something about it.

Right now even there are a couple ways that I can see it being abandoned.

1. Public outcry. If enough people in all the right places start bringing this issue to the forefront, then people will eventually catch on and unanimously call for change. All you have to start hearing a year from now, when the election is a distant memory, is that the Electoral College is un-American and before you know it, even the asshole fundies will be calling for an end to it. And it IS un-democratic, AFAIC, when you stop and think how most people's votes don't really count when it comes to our system. Start labeling the Electoral College the same way the fundies label liberals for starters. Call it communist if we have to, just to get their attention. Anything!

2. Make the other side aware of how close Kerry came to winning the election BECAUSE of the electoral college. That alone could scare those bastards into abolishing this process that's been long overdue for either a complete overhaul or abandonment altogether.

In the long run, abandoment of this complete joke of a voting system benefits the underdogs....and we sure are the underdogs right now. ONe thing's for sure. It'll never be eliminated if we don't try.

[buckettgirl]

8. I agree that it should go

But not necessarily for the same reasons.
The electoral college was set up in a time when fast communication was nonexistant and many people were uninformed on the political candidates because of distance.
The world has much evolved in the past 200 years. We can get all the information we want at the click of a button. Communication isn't an issue. (However getting people to listen openmindedly is)
We do not need anyone to hold our hands to elect the president. It should be decided on popular vote. Yes, I realize that in retrospect we would have had many different election outcomes, but that is a moot point now. The past can't be changed. But it seems that the possibility of a different outcome in 2000 would have been highly likely.
I can plainly say that my vote doesn't count. I am entirely certain that my vote was counted, but in the reality of an election it didn't matter at all. I live in Kansas, and we have 6 electoral votes (I think it is 6 anyway). That means that we don't matter enough for any candidate to campaign here. It also means that Kansas will forever be a red state. In the county I live in, it went approx. 530 votes Kerry, 2100 votes bush.
Something with the electoral college must be changed. Candidates use it to set up their campaign instead of campaigning to all Americans. States with small populations like Kansas don't matter: even if Kerry would have gotten our electoral votes, nothing would have changed. Communication/distance problems aren't problems anymore. I do believe that more people would vote if they thought their vote mattered, and I believe that more people would vote their conscience rather than just on the bandwagon. The only way for every American vote to matter is to go by popular vote. Otherwise the only acceptable alternative is to have ALL states split electoral votes to reflect the percentages in the popular vote.

[mtnsnake]

13. Your vote was counted but your vote "doesn't count"

Great post, buckettgirl. I hope everyone reads it and realizes the need for change when it comes to this important issue.

[On the Road]

10. We're Probably Stuck with It

because 3/4 of the states have to agree to a constitutional amendment. Even though there are compelling reasons against it and

The one possibility might be if Kerry were awarded the election with 48% of the vote. The GOP might actually get behind an amendment to remove the electoral college.

[xerox]

14. aaaa, oohhhh

the electorial college has got to go!

[Leilani]

15. We should be able to win both the popular vote

& electoral vote...if we can't, something is wrong.

[mtnsnake]

17. Abandoning the EC will do more toward winning the popular vote

One of my points in all this is that, as long as we keep getting these Electoral College maps rammed down our throats, voters are more apt to continue voting by the color of their own state rather than to consider voting out of their own consciences. It's the bandwagon effect and it's real. Everyone wants to be on a winner.

The EC red state/blue state map has favored Republicans for how long now?

[Bush was AWOL]

16. Electoral College does need to go!

I wonder how close the popular vote would've been had NYers, California residents, and other blue staters had known that every vote would count.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

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[Padraig18]

20. Good luck getting rid of it.

The little states will never approve a constitutional amendment to abolish it, because it lets them wield power out of proportion to their true population.

[mtnsnake]

21. Here's the scary thing

In the event of an electoral tie, which was very possible this year, the election would've been decided in the House of Representatives where every state would get an equal vote regardless of population. This would translate to one vote each for California and New York and one vote each for Wyoming and Alaska. The votes of Alaska and Wyoming would have as much clout as NY and CA, despite only having less than 1/50th the population of the NY/CA.

Just because the little states wouldn't approve of an amendment doesn't mean they have the final say in it either. That's why they're little.

[TruthIsAll]

22. The EC is not killing us. FRAUD is. But I agree. We need a Popular vote

But computer fraud can still steal it.

Witness this election. Bush did not win by 3.5 million - Kerry did.

The 3% vote margin was essentially switched.

[quaoar]

23. You don't have to abandon the EC

But you could apportion electoral votes by congressional district. The two extra electoral votes that each state gets for its senators could be awarded to the statewide popular vote winner.

[mtnsnake]

25. But take a look at the REAL map here in this link, not the EC bullshit one

The electoral "blue states/red states" map is what's doing some major damage to us, so I'd rather abandon the electoral college altogether, than fix it. BTW, I'm not taking a shot at you, quaoar. You made a great point, but I'm just trying to show that we have to abandon the electoral college completely, in order to get rid of that deceiving map.

The only map that should EVER be shown to us is that one that shows it like it really is. Take a look at the first two maps and tell me which one you like better. The first one is electoral college all the way and the second one, the true one, has nothing to do with electoral votes http://www.pascal.com/diary/archives/000232.php
(Someone here on DU also made a similar map that's even better, but I can't find the link to that one).

Everytime someone looks at that electoral college map that's been shoved down our throats all election long, it makes many people think that the red outsizes the blue by about 5 to 1, when the reality is that the two sides are much closer in numbers than what that frigging electoral college map would have you believe. Once people realize the truth, idiots like Sean Hannity won't be able to convince their sheep as easily that the two sides are so far apart.

[quaoar]

31. Assigning electroal votes by congressional district

would make it necessary for Democrats to campaign in the South and West and for Republicans to campaign in California and the Northeast.

[Mutley]

24. I agree

I am NOT blaming our loss on the EC as many in this thread have stated...

My question is this: how many people on BOTH SIDES did not bother to vote because of the state they live in? If i lived in a red state I probably would not have bothered to vote at all this year. I am sure many in this country found themselves in that position.

My feeling is that the winner of an election, no matter which side wins, would be a much more accurate reflection of the US majority without the EC... if this means the repubs win for the next 50 years, then so be it.

[w4rma]

26. You should look at the geography of the Senate, if you think the EC has

problems. And this is why Dems MUST change some tactics to get more of the small rural states behind us. Shirking the albatross of gun control will help greatly.

[rebelskypirate]

27. I agree, reform is need, an idea

Hello there,

I agree that reform is neede to the EC, here is a thought:

Popular vote nationwide would be a very, very hard thing to recount, so I propose that each Congressional District be worth 1 EV, and the overall pouplar vote winner of that state would recieve two extra EVs. This would make recounting FAR easier as only those districts in dispute would need to recounted, not the entire nation. Perhaps in some cases a state would need to be for the extra 2 votes to be decided. Overall, the EC has worked well, but it does need to be modified

thanks all, take care

[mtnsnake]

29. Specific ideas like yours will go a lot further toward fixing what ails us

than that all-too-often answer for everything we always hear on this forum: vote fraud.

Your idea is specific, helpful, and appreciated :)

[dansolo]

28. Fix the voting machines first

Long before 2004 and 2000, a significant portion of votes that most likely would have gone to Democratic candidates were lost due to faulty equipment, poorly defined ballots, and cumbersome registration processes. I believe that in an ideal world with a fair voting system, the Democrats would win elections overwhelmingly no matter what the system is. Right now, the voting machines are the real problem.

[rebelskypirate]

30. Here are some ideas on fixing the machines(not the election)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=117986&mesg_id=117986

[jerryster]

32. Agreed

My solution is the most simplistic of all. Majority wins. Here is how I see it. The EC was brought to us by small slave states worried that the large ones would impose their will and abolish slavery (bastards!). Well, now that the worst mistake in our history is no longer an issue (I realize race still is) I say go with simple majority.

I know a lot of people feel that the small states would be ignored, but I'm not so sure. After all, wasn't Florida 2000 decided (supposedly) by 537 votes. For all the problems of 2000 it's certainly an argument that every vote counts. Afterwards, Bill Clinton himself said that no one could ever again say that their vote doesn't matter. I think it's entirely possible that needing a majority would actually force candidates to campaign everywhere. After all, wouldn't it make sense - and wouldn't a candidate need- to try to get as many votes as possible in every state, even the ones that are not in their color?

More importantly, having to get a majority would put a huge burden on presidential candidates and that is exactly where it belongs. Each candidate would have to convince a majority of voters that his or her policies are the way for the country to go.

Another argument for majority vote: If we had it, we wouldn't have Bush!