Rubin to Dean: Stop criticizing NAFTA and outsourcing.

[madfloridian]

Outsourcing continues and it is being hastened lately it appears.
I feel our Democrats were far too hurried in allowing this to happen, and they are silencing voices who say it is hurting our country.

This shows me that our Democrats are much too supportive of the efforts to take our jobs overseas. I never heard Dean say that we could stop outsourcing, just fix it. He always sounded logical on it.

Here is a paragraph to show what I mean.
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20031215&s=greider

SNIP..."The governor has shown flashes of the same bluntness in his prime-time campaigning. Last summer, he told a revealing story on himself--a conversation with Robert Rubin, the former Treasury Secretary and Wall Street's main money guy for Democrats. Rubin had warned that unless Dean stopped attacking NAFTA and the multinationals for the migration of US jobs, he couldn't raise contributions for him from the financial sector. As Dean told it, "I said, 'Bob, tell me what your solution is.' He said, 'I'll have to get back to you.' I haven't heard from him." What I like so much about the story is that powerful, influential Bob Rubin pokes Dean in the chest, and he pokes him back. Then Dean discloses the exchange to the Washington Post."

Which of the options below are closest to your thoughts?

[mhr]

1. US Financial Services Companies Plan to Outsource 212 Billion

worth of US jobs in 2005.

That equates to 3,5 million US jobs at 60,000 per job.

[madfloridian]

2. It is destroying our country and our middle class. Breaks my heart.

Every day I see more of this. Yes, I do blame our Democrats for it just as much as the Republicans.

[Cha]

3. I'm wondering why they try

to silence the voices who say it is hurting our Country.

Don't these people know that it has been on the slow track to a weakened America?

[IndianaGreen]

21. Perhaps it is because the Democratic Party has sold itself to....

the highest bidder and no longer speaks (if it ever did) for the working class of this country.

The industrial base of this country has been gutted since NAFTA and the workers in Mexico have seen some of their new jobs go to Asia when they decided to make labor demands. The problem lies in the nature of capitalism which will maximize profits by reducing labor costs.

[lapfog_1]

4. So I have some stupid questions

What does NAFTA or any FTA or the WTO have to do with outsourcing?

Why do we link the subjects together?

If we repeal NAFTA, will that change anything about outsourcing
plans or practices?

[madfloridian]

7. Here is just one article. Search on the two words.

http://www.rescueamericanjobs.org/articles/index.php?info=nafta-investors-profiting-american-workers-lose-jobs

NAFTA: American Investors Cleaning Up While American Workers Suffer Devastating Job Losses
NAFTA is akin to a new, hidden constitution for the Americas than a simple free trade agreement. Unfortunately, and it tramples the rights of working people, especially American workers who suffer heavy job losses due to the failures of this unfair treaty

There is a lot at this site to explain things.

[lapfog_1]

15. Read the article you linked

Doesn't mention outsourcing at all.

Look, I'm against NAFTA. I'm also against outsourcing.

But they are two different issues.

[madfloridian]

16. Did you look on the right...there are several articles.

I am not going to argue and nitpick with you while our country's resources are being drained. If you will read the original article from the Nation.....it mentioned the two together. Rubin did.

I am tired of nitpickers.

[lapfog_1]

18. It's not a nit.

We might be able to do something about one (NAFTA), but outsourcing
is a harder nut to crack. I haven't heard one decent (or even indecent)
proposal about how to put a stop to it other than "it's horrible and
we should put a stop to it". I don't even see a law that could be
passed that would help.

About the only thing that would really help is to raise the living
standards of the rest of the world to the industrialized west's
level. What's happening now is that we are lowering our standard
to that of the third world... which, I guess, is another solution
(but not one that I like!).

NAFTA needs to be rewritten. It has too much crap in it like the
referenced lawsuit disposal process... but the fundamental flaw
is that it assumes that we are all equal partners (or close enough)
with the same (or nearly the same ) worker safety and environmental
laws. If NAFTA only included US and Canada, I don't think many
people would object so much. True?

[bklyncowgirl]

5. I've always believed that the powers that be needed a Democrat ...

to pass NAFTA and GATT. That was why they kept the rabid Clinton haters quiet until these agreements were passed. Once they were passed, the unleashed all hell on Bill Clinton.

[CAcyclist]

22. That's a very good point

It was Nixon who passed the Clean Air Act - it makes sense it would take a Democrat to pass NAFTA.

A side note, did anyone notice that while Reagan was excoriated , rightfully , for trying to have ketchup counted as a vegetable in childrens' lunch menus, it wasn't until the Clinton era, that it actually passed.

[Vincardog]

6. They are not enforcing FAIR trade agreements. The only thing free

is the free pass given to big business to rape our environment and race to the lowest wage climate since the 1800s. WE have to demand jobs or boycott.

[shance]

8. Who has the best interest of Americans? Howard Dean or Robert Rubin?

That's a tough one.

[madfloridian]

10. Scratching head. Rolling eyes. Tough one.

:think:

[barb162]

24. Dean, no contest, although I like Rubin a lot

[liberalmuse]

9. My company dissolved in July...

and now I am a temp. The company I work for keeps telling us that they will hire some of us on permanently, but I think that's bullshit, since they are paying employees with a college degree in India $2 an hour. Yes, the company I'm temping for outsources, and many of us temps will be let go as soon as the employees in India are trained well enough to do our jobs.

[flaminbats]

11. but Dean supported NAFTA..didn't he?

Rubin believes outsourcing is a great economic treasure, no Democrat should run without the approval of Wall Street..

[madfloridian]

13. Not in its present form with no regulations.

If you say so, please prove it. Thank you. He said that we could not stop it, but we could regulate it.

[flaminbats]

27. How can we regulate Mexico?

I supported Dean before he dropped out, but don't remember eliminating NAFTA being his central campaign theme. Governers have little say over trade agreements, but I remember he wanted it changed not eliminated. In 2004 the only Democrats who completely opposed NAFTA were Gephardt and Kucinich.

If Dean does support NAFTA, why would Rubin be slamming a Democratic supporter?

[shance]

14. Alot of people supported NAFTA originally, including me!

Thats the great thing about learning isnt it?

The more you learn, the more you know and the better equipped you are to make educated decisions and CHANGE your mind.

[CAcyclist]

23. A good rule of thumb

if a large corporation is instigating the change and the public not only is not behind it- they have no idea what its all about - chances are, it's not in the public interest.

I was adamantly opposed to NAFTA when it was proposed - we already had a lot of companies moving overseas - to me, it was obvious how this would accelerate things. But maybe that's because I saw how California moved its employees out of state to the southern states in search of cheaper labor.

After NAFTA, those companies moved to Mexico, and now they are picking up and moving to China. It's never a good idea to give in to the blackmailers.

[barb162]

25. Dean for Prez, straight talker, straight shooter, etc

[charlie]

12. I can't wait for the day

that some penurious megacorp board of directors decides to hire an Indian CEO for $100,000 a year. That's when manufactured opinion of outsourcing will begin to turn.

[Cheswick2.0]

17. Dean was right and what Ruben said

is a perfect illustration of what is wrong with the democratic party now. So many members have chosen to be the other/smaller corporate party.

[Capn Sunshine]

19. Remember , Dean is not against NAFTA per se

but against the unforeseen consequences. Those that require additional regulation to remedy, like outsourcing. Most Wall Streeters, whether Dem or re pub, recoil when you mention "regulation" because of the associated costs of compliance. As a Big NAFTA / GATT booster myself, I recognize that there are serious flaws that need fixing.

The whole "contract" that the Corporate body used to have with its employees needs to be reexamined. It used to be that the employee came BEFORE profit; that one would forego profit if it were possible to keep an employee. This isn't as senseless as it sounds, either. Where do they think continued purchasing power comes from? Hint: It doesn't come from sending that money and the potential customer overseas and away from domestic sales.

[madfloridian]

20. He was in favor of some aspects...telling him not to question was wrong.

This was the whole problem, Cap'n, during the primaries. Dean was DLC when he was a governor, but when he questioned things during the primary.....well, they were the ones who painted him as a screwy anti-war liberal.

If you go back through his speeches, through the interviews which are mostly available in archives....he never did sound anything but moderate.

It was his pointing out that we were heading the wrong direction that brought their wrath.

I realize you did a lot of questioning yourself as a member. I wish more from that wing would do so. We are in so much trouble here. I get so angry that they are so ready to hush any opposition to policies that are destroying our country.

[CAcyclist]

26. Maybe I'm a dreamer

but I want the US to look like the the way it turned out in
It's a Wonderful Life.

As a small business employer, I want my business to make money and I want to be well paid, but I don't see success in terms of money. Success is creating well-paying jobs that my employees can live comfortably on and in contributing to the welfare of the community. Life is about more than money and business should be more than about money.

[shance]

28. If you're a dreamer, thats a GOOD thing***

Our dreams are the possibilities of all that we can become.

[fujiyama]

29. NAFTA, like free trade in general

is a great concept in theory, but it relies to heavilly on multinational corporations and governments making the right decisions for their workers and the environment.

As we know, most large corprations cannot and should not be trusted too much. Like any body of greatly concentrated power, it makes decisions that favor itself (meaning those at the top). Those that head these corporations have no loyalty to their country - or to ANYONE for that matter.

I've heard recently that some companies that were outsourcing to India are outsourcing elsewhere because the Indians are getting too demanding. We saw the same thing happen with NAFTA - Many that had outsourced manufacturing to MExico, have moved to CHina.

Ultimately, I don't really see how outsourcing can be completely stopped. It would happened regardless of whether NAFTA had passed or not. I think a decent starting point is to increase taxes on those corporations that leave the country. Also regarding outsourcing in technology and software, restrictions should be placed on what kind of data is sent (medical and privacy concerns), as well as those relating to national security.

As for NAFTA, we have to go back to the begining and negotiate a more sane policy, which has labor and environmental restrictions and regulations in place. Granted, Mexico's will be a bit lower, but what's happening now is helping only those at the very top.

[madfloridian]

30. "negotiate a more sane policy" ...yes.

That is Dean's position, and when you think about it why would Rubin say that to him? I do think it is puzzling.