Say the machines were messed up: NO FRAUD

[Tweed]

We should do this instead of say there was outright fraud for a couple of reasons.

A Republican is going to be a million times less likely to look into this or be interested in what you have to say if you start out the conversation by saying "Your party deliberately cheated." No Republican politician is going to take that seriously and no Republican friend can be convinced that the machines don't work if you are saying that the machines don't work because his/her party cheated. Let's for some reason, you friend decides to look into your argument past this and/or you convince a Republican politician to look into this despite the fact you are indirectly suggesting he was involved in fraud.

At this point, you should point Republicans to the articles that report of computer error. Show them that there were serious mistakes across the country. These machines could hurt both parties in the end. People on both sides can respect that.

If everyone gets mad about the machines, public outcry from members of both parties will get so huge that they can't help but look into the machines. The machines will be investigated and while being investigated, THEN and only THEN will we find out if there is fraud. If the Republicans on the federal level don't want an investigation, then they look very suspicious and we can use that against them in 2006. Right now, if no fraud is proven, any Democrat saying that the machines don't work because they were rigged can come off as a conspiracy theorist and someone with sour grapes.

[Must_B_Free]

1. But they don;t care as long as it favored them

they don't care about truth or honesty. ALl they care about is winning and getting the fantasy fulfilled.

[Tweed]

2. Right... but if you convince them that the machines have errors

then my guess is that they won't want to have the machines again. I don't believe all of the machine errors were in Bush's favor. There were mistakes all over the country in many different races. I think you need to expand your view on this a little bit.

[Dookus]

3. I think the Democrats

have to make a very serious, very vocal case that since both sides distrust each other so much, ONLY a fascist thief would agree that we shouldn't have an open, transparent, audited voting system.

[Tweed]

5. After trying to suggest that they audit the machines

because the system failed of course. If the Republicans don't want to audit the machines, then it gets suspicious.

[xequals]

4. the real way to get Repubs to support bipartisan voter reform

is to put out some stories that Dem hackers are planning to infiltrate these machines. Drum up some urban legends to scare the right wing into action, to make them think it is their vote at risk of not being counted.

The problem with most liberals is they are too good for their own good, and don't like playing hardball. They'd rather go on and on with their "facts" and "rational arguments" while no one listens. Good people, but all book sense for the most part, I hate to say.

[Tweed]

6. Exactly, we must make Republicans feel that their votes could be taken

in the future too. However, I wouldn't necessarily say Democratic hackers are trying to break into the machines. I think Canadian, English or Maltese hackers would suffice and not hurt our party.

[katusha]

8. if you really want to scare the repugs

talk about communist red chinese hackers altering their votes on these evoting machines.

[Tweed]

10. even better than my European idea

[Heath.Hunnicutt]

7. "Only a computer could come up with more votes than voters!"

[m berst]

9. Agreed

This is all very, very simple.

There are doubts. There needs to be an investigation so that we can know the truth.

Period.

There is a lot of nonsense floating around with proof of fraud on the one hand, and de-bunking on the other.

I believe that there has been fraud personally, but that is merely my opinion and I don't intend to prove it nor to argue it one way or the other.

Any suspicion warrants a full investigation to DISCOVER if there is or there isn't fraud.

Both "proving" and "de-bunking" are amateurish at best, and an obstruction of justice - in spirit if nothing else - at worst.

Anyone connected directly with either campaign who is trying to steer a possible criminal investigation one way or the other with intentionally misleading statements is being irresponsible, if not worse.

[Swamp Rat]

11. False dichotomy - there were fucked up machines AND fraud.

... and NEVER answer questions posed by republicans/right wing nutjobs that are leading and insulting.

[Tweed]

12. Well we don't have prove there was fraud yet

But everyone would agree that the machines made errors and should be investigated. Once the investigation starts, then we can move on and find the fraud if it's out there.

[Nancy Waterman]

13. I totally agree, Tweedtheatre

We want a paper trail and a mandated recount when the results don't match the exit polls. Period. The only way to do it is with Republican allies who also think they will benefit. If we talk about fraud, they will get pissed and shut down. As aggrevated as I was that Conyers wasn't more aggressive on Olberman's show, I think he had it right. Getting Kerry in at this point is unlikely, but the paper trail is essential. That can be done with GOP allies.

The Miami Herald article about this makes a great point. this should be a Dem talking point:

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/columnists/fred_grimm/10137159.htm?1c

Angry Republicans, at least those firing off e-mails, seem to suspect that I'm conspiring with the computer science departments of several major universities to undermine the election of their candidate. But they ought to consider a vote-chilling reality.

Hackers (at least the few that authorities manage to nab) tend to be youngish, anti-establishment, anti-status quo, anti-corporate, anti-social. They're not likely to join the country club. They're not singing in the choir at an evangelical church. They're not security moms. They're not anxious to join the Marines and rush gung-ho into the battle for Fallujah. They're not likely to spend much time humming along with country music's Brooks & Dunn, who performed at the Republican National Convention.

Dear Republican critics: Which way do you suppose hackers will tip an election, when they decide, just for the heck of it, to have a little fun with the computer programs that now determine American elections?

[Capn Sunshine]

14. This really IS a non-partisan issue

It's more about TOP DOWN CONTROL. Democrats , particularly in a couple of southern states, are just as involved with puhing these machines as republicans. Sometimes, it's the entrenched power at the top that is the enemy regardless of the political party.