Kerry Lost.

[janx]

Period.

There are problems with BBV, to be sure, but this is not an instance of the blatent abuse we saw in 2000, as much as we would like to believe so.

It is time to stop grasping at straws, as they say. It's time to decide what all good American citizens need to do to correct the problem.

[Tweed]

1. Put on your flame proof suit

:o

[janx]

5. I am open and willing to hear about the abuses, but I'm not willing

to be hysterical over some self-fulfilling prophesy.

[seabeyond]

2. i think you are wrong

you can say it like a fact, but none the less it is merely an opinion, just like mine. and i conclude you are wrong, wink

[tritsofme]

3. There is a 99.99% probability that

you are right.

Kerry lost, its time to work toward the future.

[The Constable]

67. agreed

This constant blood-letting is tearing us all apart.

[Bridget Burke]

71. "us"?

This isn't blood-letting. We're just trying to find out what happened in this election. It may be too late for Kerry but we've got the future to consider.

Constable of what?

[gauguin57]

4. The Florida problems we're talking about are Opti-Scan ballots,

which have a major paper trail, which can be recounted. The problems are in 29 counties. Not touch-screen voting (though that is its own problem).

[lilsourgoose]

6. Disagree

I think it's MUCH more obvious and widespread than last time, and involves several states' results.

[alittlelark]

7. Stop drinking the 'morality matters' MSM kool-aid

and open your eyes before they steal a 2006 supermajority in the congress.

[janx]

10. I'll do that if you promise not to use abbreviations

from freeperland. Deal?

God, what a homogenous, media-centered world we live in.

[alittlelark]

15. You know a lot about their abbreviations??

Never been there myself.

[Solomon]

75. Oh please. I noticed this a lot lately. People using freeper

abbreviations just as you did with this MSM bullshit. Took me a while to figure out the MSM thing. It's definitely freeper language just like moran is DU language.

Stop fibbing.

[GRLMGC]

8. I personally

don't think he won but I don't think that Bush got as much support (since 51% of the people supposedly DON'T hate him and this is a "mandate") as he was shown to get. I think the voting problems should be addressed because they don't seem isolated. Everyone's vote should be counted and, hopefully, the gap will be closed so Bush can shut the fuck up about his mandate (and yes, I know he'll never shut up).

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[janx]

16. Oh yes--I must have been one of "those types."

[alittlelark]

27. Guess so.

[alittlelark]

17. It's burning into mine as I type.

[madfloridian]

11. janx, I watched Olbermann tonight, listened to Randi today.

The numbers and episodes they presented are beyond being acceptable. I think we have to follow through for our democracy...win or lose.

[janx]

19. That's fair, completely fair.

But until the proof is in, I can't go along with the hysteria. Last time, it was totally different. I had never been involved in politics before (aside from voting) and saw very clearly that some violent abuses had occurred. It was horrible.

This time though, although I'm open minded, I didn't see the kinds of abuses going down. I saw the potential for abuse; that is true, and a lot of us did. A lot of us expected the abuse to occur because we knew the potential for abuse was there. So I think we ought to be thorough but careful at the same time.

Like a few others on this board, I'm waiting for proof.

[alittlelark]

31. You are waiting for proof that our DEMOCRACY is dead?

Once it has been declared there is no resuscitation.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[janx]

56. Where is that, do you suppose?

?

[alittlelark]

58. unknown, but I can guess!!!

:evilgrin:

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[janx]

62. Thank you! It was something like a fucking deer-fly...

!

[incapsulated]

63. lol

;)

[xequals]

12. Agree. People who indulge in outlandish conspiracy theories

only do so to avoid reality. Once a person avoids reality (like Bush and the fundies do) there's no reason to fix the problem, or even admit what the real problems are. And the cycle goes on.

Granted, there are major problems with our voting system, but most of what I read about this topic is tin foil garbage. It only serves to trivialize the real problems. Sometimes I wonder if the right wing is behind some of these urban legends.

[alittlelark]

28. Conspiracy theorists seem to have a better record than the MSM.

for the last 40 or so years.

[George W. Dunce]

70. I am no conspiracy theoriest

Bush was told by Hughes that he had lost,in a landslide, in the afternoon. Exit polling is never wrong. Counties with 83% registared Dems voted overwhelmingly for Bush? Counties with 22 thousand votes and only 18 thousand registared voters? More shit you have to believe to be a republican. This was no more of an election then the dog and pony show in Afganistan a few weeks back.

[JI7]

13. i think we can do something about accuracy of voting, counting etc

that should never change.

but i agree that it's not the same as 2000 when many states were close enough that they resulted in automatic recounts and of course al gore was ahead in popular votes. this time bush is ahead in popular vote and the margin of victory was bigger than in 2000 in the states.

look at the florida senate race where our castor lost by even less. and all those senate races we lost to some of the worst republicans around. we need to figure out what to do in these areas of the south if we want to regain congress and be competitive in the south in national races.

[janx]

23. Thank You!

[alittlelark]

32. And THANK YOU for amusing us

[janx]

36. Who is "us" ?

It's not amusing.

[alittlelark]

42. Those that SEE you n/t

[alittlelark]

47. I know you are not..... amused

let's see ow happy you are in a few weeks!!!!

[0rganism]

14. Even if this is the case, we need to come to grips with the BBV problem

It's not just an issue of whether Sen. Kerry lost the election. He may very well have lost legitimately, but that doesn't mean there WASN'T cheating. In some cases, it may have cost candidates congressional seats or school board seats. Bottom line is, YOU DON'T KNOW. What's obvious at this point is there are numerous voting discrepencies that, whether or not they cost us the presidential election, are not going away unless we address them directly.

Now is as good a time for this as we're going to get. Of course, 2001 would have been preferable, but the longer we delay the less chance we have of pulling democracy back from the brink. Every election we have without a paper trail is one more election we can never recount.

[Sparkle]

18. Alright, you've made your point. Promise you'll stop beating

a dead horse? Because most of us don't want to hear it.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Eloriel]

20. Maybe

you ought to take a look at this thread before you make a final decision:

VOTE FRAUD Links - a DU Compendium
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=201&topic_id=1984#

[janx]

24. Eloriel, I've seen them, and I appreciate your pointing them out.

But until there is a firm consensus, I'm not ready to freak in the way that I freaked in 2000.

[alittlelark]

43. What form of freakage was that?

[gauguin57]

21. Even if Kerry were found to be the rightful winner, I don't believe GWB

will ever leave the White House. But I'm still 100 percent behind investigating all these voting irregularities. We must know the TRUTH! And I KNOW we don't know the truth now.

GWB will never leave the White House ... he'd chain himself to the desk and get the Secret Service to point guns at any Dems trying to come in and take over. They would pull every kind of dirty trick in the book to hang onto power (because it's not about the presidency or the congress or the people or the moral values or the fundies or anything like that ... it's about the military-industrial complex, the oil and Bush's corporate buddies' kickbacks). They won't relinquish power because it's vital to the largest corporations in this country to keep Bush in power so they can tighten their stranglehold on this country and others.

[janx]

25. He would cement himself to the walls of the oval office with cowshit

if he could; I agree.

[alittlelark]

39. He already has.

[Jersey Devil]

26. Lost or not, don't we owe it to ourselves to find out if BBV is accurate?

It doesn't have to be a "conspiracy". It could simply be some pretty crappy software that is screwing up all over the place. Shouldn't we find out now before more damage is done if that is the case?

[janx]

29. Yes! Certainly. That's why I mentioned it in my post.

Some of it could be hijinx, and some of it could be crappy software, and all of it needs to be investigated.

But I don't think that we can have some automatic reaction of widespread voter fraud because Kerry lost. We should investigate, yes, but we should not engage in some head-in-the-sand, self-fulfilling prophesies because our candidate didn't win. And we should not belittle Kerry because we might suspect there was widespread voter fraud.

[LisaL]

30. Get a clue.

:eyes:

[janx]

33. A clue to what? To what?

Besides a rolling-eyes icon, can you tell me?

Give me some proof; I'd love it. I'd love anything that tells me that half the voting population voted in this moron once again.

So you've earned your ticket with your emoticon--

Now tell me why I'm the one who has to "get a clue."

I'm tired of popular culture, and I'm goddam tired of the media's influence on normal, thinking human beings. I'm tired of cliches and the songs of commercials, and I'm really puking sick of the fact that these are the things that are educating people today.

"beating a dead horse"

"get a clue"

"at the end of the day"

Talk to me with genuine emotion and feeling, would you please?

[LisaL]

38. Republicans make the machines that count the votes.

What else do you need to know?

[janx]

54. Oh, I see--so everyone who makes all the voting machines

is a Republican? Even the little elves who screw in the bolts?

My dear Jesus, what has DU come to?

[LisaL]

57. Did Jesus answer?

[janx]

66. Not yet! But I'm sure He will!

In the meantime, we swat flies.

[alittlelark]

59. Speaking of 'little elves' isn't your bridge unguarded?

[janx]

55. lizzy, I'm sorry to offend, and I shoud not have taken it out

on you. But a lot of people have financial interests in voting machines---not just Chuck Hagel, who happens to be a Republican, but Democrats and Independents too.

Money is money. The media can tell you that. (They can, but they generally won't.)

[alittlelark]

44. MY, MY, MY.... your opinion has had quite the turn-around

from your original post......

[incapsulated]

35. I believe you are probably correct

Several of the "holy shit!!!" stories that a lot of us got all excited about have turned out, at least in part, to be incorrect.

Such as the "over count" of votes to registered voters in Ohio (turns out we weren't paying attention to the bold red warning on the Cuyahoga County site telling us how they should be tallied. When you use their methodology, the count is not over.) The story about the Democratic counties in Florida that went overwhelmingly for Bush. It seems that at least some of them, I haven't been able to check them all, have been voting for the Republican nominee for 3 elections, they are hangover dixiecrats. It doesn't explain everything, and I'm not saying it shouldn't be looked into, but it casts doubt on the great "ah-AH!" attitude it initially provoked.

The problem with all of this is that people like Olberman, no doubt encouraged by emails from folks like us, have now repeated these stories. Once it is revealed that they may be mistakes, if real hard evidence does come up, those who got burned will not be likely to report it again.

[janx]

49. No, I'm sure there are mistakes, and I'm so proud that people

payed attention and reported them. But I haven't seen, yet, a basis like anything close to 2000.

I think that people voted for Bush because they bought the line and were taken in and were scared.

It was a constant campaign of fear, and I think it worked, sorry as I am to say it.

[incapsulated]

53. I'm positive there were mistakes

We already knew going in that Diebold and the rest were a fuckup waiting to happen, even without any intentional tampering.

The problem is that I haven't seen the kind of mistakes that we can prove turned the election, not yet. And I'm afraid we are getting ahead of ourselves in some instances, like the ones I noted, and making mistakes ourselves. If we are going to make a case, it has to be triple-checked for accuracy and there is not enough of that happening.

[Zorra]

37. I cannot accept election results from machines that can not be recounted.

But Iagree it is certainly time to correct the problem.

[Senator Lamb]

40. no, America Lost

[alittlelark]

52. We are stronger than you give us credit for being.

[janx]

61. Bullshit. We are NOT strong now, littlelark.

You might like to think so, but we are not strong at home, and we are not respected in the world.

I recently got back from Europe.

[LisaL]

41. Sure.

Republicans now control the senate, congress and the presidency.
How are we going to correct the problem again?
It's not like we didn't know about the problem.

[alittlelark]

46. Our only hope is to expose the BBv and opti-scan sh*t

to prevent a supermajority in 2006.

[LisaL]

48. How can we?

The media is chirping happily of how smoothly everything went and how wonderful the machines worked. Our democratic leaders seem to be afraid of their own shadow for the most parts.

[alittlelark]

50. Think 'Watergate' took some time, but fatal.

[m berst]

64. what does it hurt?

Some look at the track record of this adminstration, then they look at all of the objective evidence from the election and apply standard criteria for predicting the possiblity of electoral fraud, and then consider the horrendous consequences we will all face if this election was stolen and we roll over for it, and they call for an investigation.

That all sounds prudent, wise, and patriotic to me.

Who would have an objection to this and why?

[Milo_Bloom]

65. Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?

"There are problems with BBV, to be sure, but this is not an instance of the blatent abuse we saw in 2000, as much as we would like to believe so."

In order to say this, honestly, you have to not be paying attention to the information that has been uncovered. Nearly 200,000 votes in Florida that appeared out of thin air (more votes cast than people who showed up in various counties). The same thing happened in Franklin Ohio and in many precincts throughout not only Ohio, but all over the country.

Let's put the conjecture evidence aside (exit polling differential, wacky numbers of dems voting GOP in Florida) and lets JUST look at some cold hard facts.

The phantom votes ALONE should be enough. But, let's go deeper. AT LEAST 2.7% of Ohio ballots were PROVISIONAL. Other states show a FRACTION of that amount. That doesn't strike you as trouble? People waited up to 8 HOURS to vote because there were so few machines in some heavily populated minority districts. That isn't wrong?

None of that is "grasping at straws". The voting problems in this election are FAR WORSE than in 2000 b/c they were done in such a way as to NOT raise obvious problems. In 2000 they at least had the decency to do it out in the open with road blocks and crazy ballots, this time, they are managing to make anyone to investigates it look like they are chasing their tails, but they aren't.

You have to be wearing serious blinders to not see the BLATANT abuse.

Wake up and smell the rotten fish!

[Leilani]

68. Thanks for your voice of reason!

I was starting to think I was crazy, that I was the only person at DU who thought Kerry lost.

I agree that there are problems, & every machine should have a paper trail. Also, states & counties need to do work on making it easier to vote. Nobody should have to stand in line for hours upon hours to cast a ballot.

But as far as the outcome of the election, stick a fork in it, it's done!

[King Coal]

74. So, then, we should accept a stolen election, just because

some people can't be bothered with the hassle of dealing with it?

[SammyWinstonJack]

79. Apparently.

I guess we all should just "Get Over it."

[NightOwwl]

69. Bush intended to go to War against Iraq from day one.

People didn't take me seriously.

Bush was guaranteed a win in the 2004 election. So, don't take me seriously, I'm used to it.

[Trajan]

72. Yes ....

Let's all close our eyes and never scrutinize the voting systems to see if they are honest .....

sheeesh ....

Ostriches have greater vision ....

NOTE: LOSING the election, and VERIFYING election processes are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS ..... They are SEPARATE ISSUES ...

STOP trying to confute and confuse ....

[King Coal]

73. So what you are really saying

is that the Dems should just roll over again. THIS ELECTION WAS STOLEN! Dang it.

[Bridget Burke]

77. She's telling us to SHUT UP.

Trust in the system. Everything will be OK.

[bigtree]

76. Was it your vote that was not counted?

How do you know that your vote was counted? Why don't you care?

[LisaLynne]

78. Well, we'll see what the voter fraud story comes to ...

I think we need to hit it because I think it's widespread enough that it can at least call into question the legitimacy of *'s so-called "mandate" which I believe is essential at this point. He's joking about the "will of the people" in press conferences, talking about moving ahead with all his hair-brained plans because of "political capital". Anything to give this dangerous buffoon pause needs to be done, no matter how hard it might be or how big of a hassle. No, I don't expect the results to get overturned, but I think at least if a seed of doubt can be planted, a few people might start looking at * and his people in a new light and see them for the criminals they are.

That being said, while I'm doing what I can with the fraud stuff, I am also moving ahead in other ways. We need to reform the Democratic party. We need to start taking leadership roles in whatever capacity we can. We need to form our own versions of think tanks and figure out ways to get our message -- our real message, not what the GOP wants people to think our message is -- out there.

So, it's not really an either-or proposition. We can keep hitting the fraud story and also think of the future. They are not mutually exclusive.

[Moderator]

80. Flambaited this one into "lockage"

.