STOP RED STATE WELFARE

[Mizmoon]

Check out this dkos link. This is the real ticket, I think.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/3/151749/966

[mbee]

1. Also, do not give to corporate charities so when they call

your home - just say no. Tell them to get their money from busco! If you want to help people in need instead of giving to UW - give directly to a soup kitchen, etc.

[RapidCreek]

2. South Dakota

Proud pack of welfare hating, self sufficient, Republican, Westerners who recieve 3 dollars of IL, WI, MI, CA, PE, NY income tax money for every dollar they whine and cry about paying themselves.

RC

[NorthernSpy]

3. I agree -- especially regarding Southern and Western farm subsidies

The blue states CARRY those fuckers. Let them save their own hides. Why the hell should Yankee libruls have to subsidize people who spit on all things Yankee and progressive?

It's high time we let them have the free-market, personal-responsibility trip they claim they want. If nothing else, we'll have the fun of watching them go under, whining all the way.


We need to consolidate our strongholds, appeal to our base, REWARD our base, and PUNISH our enemies.

Blue states need to have a tax revolt of our own: one that will keep our tax revenue where it belongs, and put a stop to the federal redistribution scheme that has coddled the South for too damn long.

[Nimble_Idea]

4. THATS WHAT IM FUCKING TALKING ABOUT

IM SAVING THIS POST!!

RALLY !!!

[Rose Siding]

24. Wouldn't the food prices in my blue state skyrocket?

Isn't that supposed to be the "upside" of subsidies? It wouldn't be so hard to take if the money didn't go to corporate farms.

edit: But I DO love the slogan. "Stop Red State Welfare"

[HamdenRice]

30. No -- with REAL freemarket reforms you would get your food from Mexico

Let the "self-sufficient" frontiersmen compete with Mexican campesinos to supply our hamburgers and see who wins!

[Tim_in_HK]

46. Nope.

The subsidies keep pricing artifically inflated.

[Renew Deal]

5. We're putting sanctions on the red states.

Treat them like the Iraqi's in the 90's. Oh boy :nuke:

[Rose Siding]

26. Us and whose Congress?

We. Have. No. Power.

[AndrewJacksonFaction]

6. But, how do we go about this? Don't we need to be in power?

[Bluebear]

14. Move to blue states and get more electoral votes

[Cats Against Frist]

15. Republicans and the Libertarians want fewer federal income taxes

That's all you need to know, baby.

A Democrat introduces a bill to abolish the federal income tax.

The Republicans either have to come high and sign on, or they look like they were bluffing.

a. if they're bluffing, they piss off their ideologue constituents, thereby possibly causing the party irreparable damage.

or

b. It passes.

Then, we move to the blue states, get involved in state and local government. Raise the state taxes to MAKE UP FOR the abolition of fed tax -- and the blue states get to keep all their money, instead of bailing out the pussies in the middle.

Now -- there are several ways that Pukes could counter this -- but here's the thing.

1. Blue/Donor states are already the centers of industry, and they have the infrastructure. If the Pug industries pull out, it won't matter -- because we'll be able to provide more tax breaks to lure companies -- because, when it gets right down to it, money talks more than ideology for the business community. The best and brightest will move to blue states, so we can be ahead in technology -- or at least hanging in there

2. When the stupid masses realize that it's only going to be them and the Christo-fascists left in their state, and they'll be stoned for reading Maxim magazine, it'll wake them the fuck up and maybe they'll get their asses out from in front of "Newlyweds: Nick and Jessica" and go out and vote against the fundies and the corpo-fascists.



Sure -- there are holes -- but maybe someone smarter than any of us could make this work to our advantage, somehow.

[Bluebear]

16. An idea whose time has come. nt

[Carni]

23. OMG This is brilliant

THIS is truly brilliant...

I was trying all day to think of something that could screw this bush reich system and you have nailed it!

Choke these bastards out with their own mandates and ideology!

Maybe I am nuts but I think this is a winner!

[Bluebear]

28. Absolutely. But the campaign has to be shouted near and far

to make an impact!

[AllyCat]

42. I like! I like!!

This is great! Okay, I'll be happy to post this where I know to send it (not much, but something). Heck, I'll be HAPPY to go talk to my re-elected Senator and the one still sitting. How do we do this?

[DuaneBidoux]

44. Like it, let the plains return to the way they were before FDR

gave them much more help than they apparently ever deserved.

[LuminousX]

53. Dustbowl II

"When the opposition plays dirty, the only option is to play dirtier."

Shutting off the spigot is a good idea only if it is countered with efforts to increase voter education and outreach in those areas. We can't abandon the local parties in those states and some of those states sit on the margin, almost being blue. Those states deserve some extra attention.

[sir_arms_50]

62. excellent idea!

tell em to put up or shut up....we'll see the true colors then

[meow mix]

7. welfare states listed on there..

States Receiving Most in Federal Spending Per Dollar of Federal Taxes Paid:

1. D.C. ($6.17)
2. North Dakota ($2.03)
3. New Mexico ($1.89)
4. Mississippi ($1.84)
5. Alaska ($1.82)
6. West Virginia ($1.74)
7. Montana ($1.64)
8. Alabama ($1.61)
9. South Dakota ($1.59)
10. Arkansas ($1.53)

States Receiving Least in Federal Spending Per Dollar of Federal Taxes Paid:

1. New Jersey ($0.62)
2. Connecticut ($0.64)
3. New Hampshire ($0.6
4. Nevada ($0.73)
5. Illinois ($0.77)
6. Minnesota ($0.77)
7. Colorado ($0.79)
8. Massachusetts ($0.79)
9. California ($0.81)
10. New York ($0.81)

hmmmmm

[AllyCat]

43. Interesting, possibly helpful...

...source?

[tnlefty]

8. I'm in a red state and I've been saying this for years. If the nuts in the

red states who rail about welfare and also about paying taxes at the local, state and federal level were abruptly cut off from being welfare states it would get some people's attention pretty quick! I'm all for it.

[City Lights]

63. Me too. This red-stater says bring it on.

Whatever it takes. These fools need to hit bottom.

[LowerManhattanite]

9. I am so-ooooooooo p*ssed at Ohio right now...

The state LOSES 230,000 jobs thanks to Bush and then chooses to vote the f*cker in again by 140,000 votes? Call me bitter, but there are not enough bad things that can happen to those who opted for this electoral self-immolation. I have NO sympathy for people and place that vote against their self-interest. NONE!

I know it's cruel, but that's just how I feel now.

[Cats Against Frist]

10. HEYYYYYYYYYYY That person stole my idea!!!! :)

But I like it. Please spread the word.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1305989

[StupidFOX]

11. Ah, the first step toward Northern Secession.

I like it... they don't want it, they don't have to have it.

[Cats Against Frist]

12. It's not SECESSION -- that might get us "Wellstoned"

it's a "demographic shift."

:)

[Bluebear]

13. MOVE TO SOLID BLUE STATES!

Drain the electoral clout of the red states. Increase population of the blue states.

[NewJeffCT]

31. no - move to light blue or pink states

Help swing it our way.

[stepnw1f]

17. Righties Always Talk About Self Sufficiency

Clean up your own back yards before you come preaching up here. And stay the "F" away from my state you Born-Again Again Again nutbags!

[info being]

27. Hmm. All we have to do is adopt their language and propose it in Congress

Oh, I forgot. Dems are worthless for carying out any real strategy.

[stepnw1f]

32. Yes... Forgot

[makhno]

18. Thank you

This is what makes me so angry (among other things): the bastards that keep talking about the ole American self-sufficiency and Northern elitism are the ones eagerly taking our gay-enabling, bible-banning, flag-burning, flip-flopping money.

Maybe the Democratic party needs to focus on this message? That welfare isn't just for that black woman in Chicago? That big government doesn't just mean long lines at the DMV? Can we actually show people how much the government does that benefits us all?

It sickens me to think that the right-wingers in this country have managed to all but destroy the idea of a social contract - a contract between everyone, between the citizens and the government.

[independentpiney]

19. States Rights!

I'v been thinking (&posting)about this all day. Maybe this is something we can actually agree with the fundies on.

[leftist.]

20. More-so couldn't the dems ...

... with a now OBVIOUS minourity, begin vehemently pushing through extreme forms of *'s agenda? Attacking Iran, killing the homeless, shit I don't know, banning homosexuality, banning ANY form of flag desecration ... go nuts!

It goes hand-in-hand with another interesting thread posted earlier today about how to LEGALLY make *'s life a living hell for the next four years!

=(

[MsTryska]

66. Actually.....strangely enough

begala was saying the very same thing on CNN this morning.



Y'all want abortion illegal, okay then, let's start posting cops at hospitals to arrest everyone. you want no gay marriage, let's start locking everyone involved in jail.


i sitll like the idea of stuffing their agendas down their throats:

you want abortion illegal> fine, let's repeal the amendment and state that abortion is no longer legal AND men are financially responsible for 50% of all expenses for raising their children. let's put that in the damn consitiution.


you want to preserve the sanctitiy of marriage? fine - marriage is defined as 1 man and 1 woman, and they will have to stay together forever. Divorce is against the sanctitiy of marriage any longer.

while we're locking up the fags, let's lock up the adulterters and divorcees as well.

[KitSileya]

70. Exactly!

Hell, if I were to use my religion in defining marriage laws, at least half of all marriages inAmerica, if not more, are not valid, and those in them bigamists!

I'm a Catholic, if you couldn't guess.

(Just so you know it, I am for going the French way, withdrawing the power of performing <i>legal</i> marriages from religious organizations - let those who want the sacrament get it in church, while also signing a legal contract at a court house, just like the atheists, GLBT, and polyamorists.)

And stop red state welfare!!

[MsTryska]

71. I am right there with you.....

i like my government secular and my justice blind.


i also like my Mass in Latin. ;-)

[KitSileya]

75. LOL

One of the great things about being a Catholic in Norway (which has a Protestant state church, a priest for a prime minister, and a partnered gay finance minister) is that most Catholics here are first or second generation immigrants, with huge groups from Vietnam, Chile, and Sri Lanka. We're a world church in miniature, over 150 nationalites represented) and we're so democratically and liberally minded the Pope shudders every time he hears mention of us.

As for the subject at hand; there's a lot of good threads on red state welfare today, and I think there should definitely be a birth of a new movement from the seeds sown here.

[MsTryska]

77. Geez.....sounds like I need to move to Norway...

but not until the revolutions happened tho.

I promised myself that.

[KitSileya]

78. Nah. Norway's not a paradise. I don't think any country is.

It's very xenophobic, unfortunately, and there's been a lot of incidents lately that has increased that. Several murders comitted by African refugees, and one went postal with a knife on a tram. Norway still has so few murders that each gets a lot of attention, and so the insulationism grows.

[Cats Against Frist]

21. kick

[Bluebear]

22. kick

[info being]

25. That's it. That's the answer.

[JPJones]

29. I have my take on it here

http://vodp.blogspot.com/2004/11/things-must-get-much-worse-before-they.html

[Bluebear]

34. Did you see Bush asked the naitonal debt to be RAISED today?

WASHINGTON - The Bush administration announced Wednesday that it will run out of maneuvering room to manage the government's massive borrowing needs in two weeks, putting more pressure on Congress to raise the debt ceiling when it convenes for a special post-election session.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041103/ap_on_go_pr_wh/debt_ceiling_1

[Cats Against Frist]

37. I see what the Big Government GOP is trying to do

They're trying to create a Christo-fascist society -- but WITH a welfare state, doled out by the churches and favoring the corporations. Neat concept, eh?

People on here have laughed at me or thought I was a troll for being a libertarian (small-l). I came to this conclusion before the GOP got their "big mandate," -- the only solution is to decentralize and starve the red states. The dems have half the undergrad degrees in this country and 60 percent + of graduate degrees. We KNOW the scientific community is behind us.

We need to move blue people from red states to swing states -- make them true blue, abolish the federal income tax, shrink the federal government -- or at the very least pass ballot initiatives to either replace federal income tax with state income tax, or keep our tax dollars in our blue states. Without the red states to suck us dry, we could offer corporations tax breaks to come to the blue states.

This IS the answer. Spread the word, folks. You have to move before the next census. And it's 100 percent legal.

Bleed 'em.

[Sparkly]

33. I'd also love to see a list of companies to boycott --

both to starve red states and to keep my money from going to Republican donors and supporters of rightwing wackos, like Home Depot and Bose, for example.

[symphony]

35. kick

[SoCalDemocrat]

36. Great Idea

----
by jimrice
Wed Nov 3rd, 2004 at 12:17:49 PST

An earlier diary mentioned this idea, then slid down the page. The idea comes from Angry Bear:
"I also have a substantive recommendation to the Blue states: Do all that you can to shut off the spigots. Completely. Shut it down. All of it. No more sucking on the government's teat for the Red states. Transform the rhetoric of your Republican brothers into practice: Slash federal spending (is that still a Republican position?). Wipe out the farm subsidies. Eradicate all block grants to the states. End the transfer of thirteen cents out of every Blue State Tax Dollar to the Red states (call it "Real Welfare Reform".) Replace every dollar of reduced federal spending with a dollar of in-state spending."

[Tyler Durden]

38. THIS IS FUCKING BRILLIANT.

Everyone on the board needs to read this. If the Red States want Civil War, let's give em one without bullets that they have no chance of winning.

Are you reading this, Will Pitt???

[sonicx]

39. Sounds great. Dems can't really do much else given their position righ now

make repugs live up to their platform.

[Fovea]

74. The framing terms?

"Support free market agriculture"
"Stop Farm Welfare"
"Stop welfare for Company Farms"
"Rich Farm Companies are Stealing You Water!"

[Raiden]

40. BIG KICK!

It's so simple, and yet so brilliant. We beat them at their own game! Call their bluff! It's so devious it sounds like a Republican strategy. I LOVE IT!

:kick:

[WilliamPitt]

41. Do you have numbers

on exactly how much the Blue States subsidize the Red, and for what?

[AllyCat]

48. See above

Someone posted above the total spent/lost, but I was hoping for a source for the info. Anyone?

[PSU84]

49. Numbers are in the Statistical Abstract of the United States

Table after table on federal taxes and expenditures BY STATE

http://www.census.gov/prod/www/statistical-abstract-us.html

[Cleopatra2a]

45. These same states always complain about losing young

people. I'm in Oklahoma and that's all they talk about.

[DinahMoeHum]

69. Good! Fuck 'em. Why would any educated kid want to stay

in such backward areas with those sheeple anymore? Or any young entrepreneurs establich businesses there these days?

Like the song goes "how you gonna keep 'em down on the farm after they've seen Paree?"


:evilfrown:

[sonicx]

47. kick

[Tyler Durden]

50. kick

.

[PSU84]

51. Red State Welfare Documented HERE

The Statistical Abstract of the United States...

http://www.census.gov/prod/www/statistical-abstract-us.html


"I aim to make Georgia HOWL!" - Gen. William T. Sherman

[ulTRAX]

56. this MAP tells the shocking truth...........

There's probably an updated version.... I got this one from a 2000 report http://members.tripod.com/romcache/fedspending.html

A note of caution: SOME of this spending is no doubt for progressive programs such as Medicaid, and Social Security. We can't begrudge a worker in the NE who contributed to SS, retires and chooses to move to Florida.

[AllyCat]

76. Not SS

This plan talks about federal income tax only, not payroll taxes like SS/Medicare. It would still be okay.

There are holes in this, of course. We would and should honor our federal treaties with Native Americans. There are many other issues here. But what it comes down to is all the shared governance stuff that the Repubs have tried to stop funding for years. They will get it. And more...

[wicket]

52. kick

:kick:

[Tyler Durden]

54. I still think this IT.

If you get a Democrat to present a bill to kill the Federal Income Tax, the Red State Righties will come in their shorts.

The rePukes CANNOT oppose it. At the very least, it will make them look like flip-floppers the size of ALASKA.

[AllyCat]

57. Mayor John Norquist's book

The Wealth of Cities...he talks about this whole idea of federal funding for highways and everything else, increasing the states' dependence on them. They don't plan for anything. They just keep baseline-budgeting themselves into hell. And they never realize their full potential.

This is the one book my conservative Republican fiancee (then boyfriend) and I could actually agree made some sense. He voted for Kerry by the way. :)

I live in Milwaukee, as does former Mayor Norquist. At this point, I'm about to call him up and ask to talk about his book and this policy. Maybe he'd have some ideas how to move this out (assuming he would agree to talk to me).

[kwolf68]

55. Kick

Awesome, but the Democrats will never do it. They are a party of wussies…the foot soldier Dems are the real warriors, but they have no say in this.

[AllyCat]

59. But that's the beauty of this.

We would get bipartisan support, especially from those Repubs who printed letters every day of the '04 Prez campaign about how they were co-opted by the RR and were voting for Kerry. This is a UNITING issue with those people.

The Dems were not too wussie to kill that stupid tax break bill right before the election. They would probably see the value in this too if we present it right and get the ball rolling.

It needs to be bipartisan authored too: I say someone like Lindsey Graham and Herb Kohl.

[sonicx]

58. again good idea, so what dems would present this to congress?

we need to make some calls or send some emails.

[Mizmoon]

60. I betcha Rangel would do it in the House n/t

[Bragi]

61. Why target "states?"

The tactic of economically punishing -- err, liberating -- the red areas of the country makes sense.

However, if you look at the results map, I see that there are many blue pockets in most red states. Generally, they all have something in common, which is that they tend to be the urban centres.

So maybe the emphasis should be on opposing benefits to rural areas and small towns, where the GOP gets it's core support.

What's needed is increased federal funding for the communities where most people live -- cities -- and less for where they don't.

Just a thought.

- B

[sonicx]

64. i think what will happen is...

blue cities would raise local taxes to pay for the goodies that blue people want.

[AllyCat]

65. Okay, that's another idea...

...but most of the Federal funding goes on a state-to-state basis. Not all of it though so you may have a point there.

Cities have an easier time providing for themselves as they already have the infrastructure for self-support. If they can then say "no, we have no money to build roads, sewer systems, and powerlines to your stupid ex-urban subdivision", it will discourage urban sprawl and the extra money and services cities must then provide (fire, police, ambulance, trash removal, etc.).

Part of the problem with targetting only rural areas is the Reps. in Congress will not want to hurt their base and won't support it. But they have been calling for flat or no federal income tax for a long time and we've always fought it. Maybe they need to be careful what they ask for.

[mondo joe]

67. Too complex. We need simple hot button case.

Let NY's dollars support NY.

Let Georgia support itself.

[sonicx]

68. i agree. repugs never think about complexity

"Saddam is evil. Let's invade."

[Fovea]

72. Stop Welfare for the Rich

Say it everyday.

[markus]

73. More likely, you will see blue state programs evaporate

Say goodbye to your favorite federal-dependent industries and military bases.

Even here in North Dakota, I can't imagine why they haven't used a threat to close the bases or vote Republican.

[PSU84]

79. Red State welfare quantified...

From "The Great Divide: Retro vs. Metro America" by John Sperling.

Retronomics is supported by two pillars:
(1) the extraction industries—agriculture, oil, gas, metals mining, and forestry—and (2) national political power based on the alliance between the Southern, Prairie, and Rocky Mountain states. This political power ensures a flow of subsidies for the extraction industries and the siting of federal facilities—military bases, shipyards, atomic energy, and military testing grounds—that in turn ensure a flow of payments for personnel and maintenance. Altogether,
the excess of these payments over tax revenue collected amounted to just under a trillion dollars in the decade 1991–2001. They constitute welfare for the rich and middle class in Retro America, while Republicans do everything in their power to eliminate
welfare for the Metro poor. In short, Retro America prospers because it is on the dole and aggressively anti-Metro.

The Metro winners are Arizona, Florida, Hawaii, Maine, Rhode Island, and Pennsylvania. The Retro losers are Georgia, North Carolina, and Texas. The 30 winners win largely because they receive subsidies
for their extraction industries and/or funding for national defense, including atomic energy. Among the Metro winners, Arizona and Florida receive agricultural subsidies but also significant Social Security payments. Alabama was first in the winner column,
taking in more than $100 billion beyond what it paid in taxes in the decade. Texas was the only Retro state that was a significant loser, but its losses were dwarfed by the big Metro losers. California led the way, paying $253.5 billion over what it received in subsidies. But California was not alone as a big loser: Illinois, New York, New Jersey, Michigan, and even little Connecticut had losses of more than a hundred billion dollars.

http://www.retrovsmetro.org/downloads/chpfull/ch2_full....

[AllyCat]

80. Is this book in print?

PSU---in print? Year of pub? I'm betting it's pretty recent. The map with the gazillions of dollars is a lot more convincing than the one posted earlier with return on a dollar.

Ugh...no wonder my taxes are so high here in WI and I don't even own property.

[PSU84]

82. Yes it's in print (2004)

But if you go to the web site in my previous post you can download it chapter-by-chapter for free in PDF format.

[foslrock]

81. This could solve the electoral college fiasco...

I believe this is the best way to solve the electoral college fiasco, as well.

States that are welfare sponges get less electoral votes compared to states that provide more to the system. So technically, Connecticut would have 40 some electoral votes, while WV, Mississippi etc only get 3. IF a state can be fiscally responsible, then the next go around it recieves more electoral votes.

So if all states were fiscally responsible (meaning providing as much revenue as they spend), then they would all have an equal say, and it would fall strictly to the popular vote.