Draft dodgers! Dean and FDR!

[mouse7]

Both qualified for medical deferments from the draft. Does anyone challenge FDR because he didn't serve in the military? Obviously not. Dean has a medical condition that disqualified him from military service. It doesn't take much of a back condition to disqualify you becasue of the requirement that you pretty much have to be able to live 24/7 with a 75 pound pack on your back.

Lets list a few people who would be given 1-Y or 4-f status at some point in their athletic careers.

- LANCE ARMSTRONG!!!!! - Possibly the greatest endurance athlete of our generation - 5 time Tour De France winner. Cancer survivors have to be cancer free for years before they can even be remotely considered capable of military service. Armstrong is also missing a testicle, a piece of one lung, and was treated for brain tumor. Automatic disqualifiers.

- Mario Lemeiux - also a cancer survivor, missing his spleen, disqualifier (Canadian citizen, though... just an example)

- Bo Jackson while he was still playing Major League Baseball. (hip replacement - no plastic hips in the military)

- Jim Abbott (pretty obvious, but he threw a no-hitter one-handed, so he gets on all these kinda lists)

-Casey Martin (PGA golfer who sued to use cart on PGA tour)

-Here's some links to disabled skiers and water-skiers, too...

http://www.complete-skier.com/Resorts/Country/USA/Utah/Disabled/
http://www.nscd.org/
http://keneva.com/LookMa.htm

Gee... that looks like skiing that FDR could have done were he alive today. Would you be yelling about FDR doing this type of skiing during the Vietnam conflict? I think not. There a lot of different kinds of people on the slopes doing a lot of differnt kinds of skiing. There's Franz Klammer skiing. There's Sonny Bono skiing. Both spent lots of "time" on the slopes. Time spent is clearly not an indicator of ability.

[JohnKleeb]

1. All fairness to Dean

but FDR did try to join the navy but got sick, and he asked to serve in WWI but Wilson wouldn't let him. I have no problem however with Dean not serving, Vietnam wasnt right, and he was right not to serve.

[AP]

8. What wasn't right was that more Americans didn't have doctor friends of...

...family able to help people legitimately get out of serving.

It's not Deans fault that he grew with way more options and opportunities in life, including his opportunity to legitimately avoid having to serve in Vietnam.

It's no more Dean's fault that he was born into his family, than it's anyone's fault that they're born into a middle class or poor family.

My problem is that I like a president whose life story stands as a good allegory for and symbol of important American values. Dean's doesn't. Like JFK he could have made up for it in other ways. However, I find little in his life that puts him on the same plane as FDR, JFK, or even WJC.

[mouse7]

18. That's becausee you trying hard not to see good Dean bio.

Dean turning away from the family business (finance), entering the medical profession, then moving to a fairly rural area to be a general practice physician is as good a story as most are capable of these days. Dean's and his family had plenty of ability to get Dean established as another unneeded high-paid NY specialist, but Dean went to Vermont to be a GP.

No... he didn't go to West Virginia, or Montana, or Somalia to practice medicine. Dean is not a Mother Teresa/Max Cleland heroic figure. However, Dean's story is a good decent story of hard work and helping others. Dean worked hard, played by the rules, and healed people. Sounds like a good life to me. That's all that matters.

[AP]

27. He got back in the family business when he started running VT for Wall St.

Why do I have to try to see good in Dean's bio?

If you go back through the archives, the first time I was asked to think about Dean, I said OK. I said that I thought that a Dean Edwards ticket might be good because there was a pretty good chance there was a Dean Edwards at Andover or Yale who made Bush's life hell.

I gave Dean a chance. I looked into his bio. It's bad.

[mouse7]

34. Then get out of the Democratic Party

If you're going to make up crap about a potential nominee's that's not there, or refuse to accept facts that are there on the record that are positives, go join another party and tear the Dems down from outside. We don't need people inside the party who will wreck the Party from within.

[AP]

40. I say this because I want the Democrats to win.

I saw how Gore was a poor vehicle for a message of concern for the middle class economic experience, and I saw how Bush made his weak biography look even worth with very little complicated effort.

I don't see how Dean can do better than Gore on this front.

And what the hell do you think I made up?

And what facts am I refusing to accept. Dean's biography is a series of facts. You chose to interpret them as meaning one set of things. I see another, and I see an even more incriminating third meaning which I KNOW the Republicans would push with ease if Dean were nominated.

Don't hate the messenger. This is the truth.

You say you don't want me pointing this out because I'm wrecking the party from within. Well, I say I don't want you to wreck the party by ignoring this and trying to get a sure loser to win. And what's are you fighting for anyway? It's not like this guy is fighting for anything so great that warrants ignoring this. I can understand arguing Genifer Flowers was irrelevant to Clinton's campaign, 'cause Clinton was fighting for so many things that were good (like middle class opportunity, like racial equality, like hope and optimism). But what is it about Dean that would even make me want to ignore his biography?

In fact, I think my problems with him on issues like middle class opportunity, taxes and race actually correlated highly with his biography. I think he really doesn't understand where I'm coming from on those issues because he doesn't come from the same kind of America I come from.

[mouse7]

54. You proved my point. You aren't a team player.

You won't play for a team. It's your way or the highway. You don't know what "reaching a consensus" or "compromise" means. We don't need people willing to harm the progressive cause to promote their own aims.

I'm an ABB. I'm not aligned with any of the candidates. I have a disagreements with all 9 candidates that are large enough that I'm staying uncommitted through the process. I'll support the nominee after the convention enthusiastically and am active on issues currently. I've had a hard time getting real excited about anyone since Sen. Wellstone was lost.

That said, seeing Lieberman and Kerry start the attack dog bit got me ticked off. Beating Bush is the goal, and handing the neo-cons ammo is complete and utter self-serving rubbish.

[AP]

95. Look at my sig. I'm a team player. We just have different teams.

[mouse7]

100. A signature doesn't make a team player.

Behavior determines whether you're a team player. I don't really care what your sig line says, you don't act like a team player.

[AP]

121. whatever.

[neverforget]

112. Who died and put you in charge of the Democrat Party?

[Old and In the Way]

29. Was George the inspiration for Tommy Sands role in

"The Absentminded Professor"?

[RetroLounge]

87. You see what you want to see.

eom

[AP]

124. What do you think I want to see?

I want to see a Democratic victory in 2004.

I think my post was very honest and straight-forward.

Which part of it do you think is occluded by my desire to fit reality into a pre-detrermined world view?

[Scott Lee]

97. you don't need doctor "family friends" to document the legit

And Dean's doctors didnt fake his spinal condition. Unless you are insinuating that Dean's family paid a doctor under the table to fabricate a fake spinal condition, then you are left with the obvious: That anyone in America had the same ability to approach a draft board with a doctors documentation of a preexisting condition.

By the way, this is the 90,000 iteration of the "Dean dodged the draft" poop. Congratulations, that got to be some kind of record.

[TLM]

77. And Kucinich got a deferment too

for his heart murmer

[dobak]

2. hmmm

FDR wanted to join and serve in WWI but was asked not to by President Wilson. Wilson wanted him to remain in his current post:

Asst. Secretary of the Navy

---

While I agree that Dean is not a draft dodger, he will become one to millions of Americans should he be the Democratic challenger to Bush.

Rove + $200 million = Oh Shit!

[mouse7]

6. well, FDR wasn't alive during Vietnam, for that matter

I was just making a point on the whole "disabled, but not comatose/braindead" question.

Democrats should be open-minded enough that they can comprehend that disabled people are capable of doing some things, just not EVERYthing. A back problem and 75 lb. packs just don't work well together. That's why the military listed the problem as 1-Y. Dean wasn't 4-f, but it would take an emergency such as WWII for people in Dean's category to get called up, and even then, they would get special staff duty of some sort.

[bitchkitty]

15. Rove + $200 million = Oh Shit!

$200 million? What does he need $200 million for, when he's got Clark and Kerry supporters?

[Andromeda]

76. Hahahahahahahaha....

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :toast:

[LiberalBushFan]

17. not only that

but within four years he'll become a double draft dodger

[Droopy]

3. I don't think this will be an issue for Dean

if he is the nominee. If the repukes bring that up he can always point out Bush's questionable history in the service.

[dobak]

4. won't work

The masses think Bush served and millions consider him a strong Commander-In-Chief

Dean Will Not be able to attack Bush on being AWOL or skipping Vietnam. He will get it back twice as bad.

[Jim Sagle]

7. Like FUCK he will. The Pugs have NOTHING to thorw back.

[caledesi]

12. You are right Jim. All Dean has to say is "Where were you

Mr. President from 1971-1972? You have never answered that question.

[neuvocat]

13. Unfortunately...

reasons have nothing to do with how the pukes debate.

[lapauvre]

23. Jim Baker

the Michavellian of the republicans. Always ready. Totally corrupt and corrupting, a hit man in a business suit. What a piece of crap.
Did the same thing for GB the first. I am reminded of whoever said to McCarthy, paraphrased, "At last, sir, have you come to this? Do you have NO shame?"

[mouse7]

35. Or a half-a-million Roy Cohn quotes

I just watched both parts of Angels in America last week , so it's going to be hard to get Cohn out of the head for a while.

We can only hope Baker has his own Ethel Rosenberg standing at the foot of his bed taunting him as he dies.

[5thGenDemocrat]

5. Now, here are some athletes who didn't duck the draft

Bob Feller, Warren Spahn, Hank Greenberg, Ted Williams and Joe DiMaggio.
What's your point?
John
Was Howard Dean an athlete, other than intramural football?

[mouse7]

9. Ahhh, so Armstrong and Abbott would be ducking draft, huh?

You are the one using the verb "ducking."

Disabled people have enough to deal with from their health problems than to deal with some stigma of being "lesser individuals" because they weren't capable of putting on a uniform.

When you use words like "ducking", that's the message you are delivering.

On edit: Dean an athlete? Well, yeah. Anyone who attempts anything athletic is an athlete. Doesn't mean they are any good. Sonny Bono was a "athlete" right up to the moment he went into the tree.

[5thGenDemocrat]

16. No, I just don't get the connection, in any way, with Howard Dean

But, since you mentioned it, I know Jim Abbott -- both because I'm a sportswriter in Michigan and because he went to a high school (Flint Central) in the same league as my high school (Saginaw Arthur Hill). Don't patronize me by suggesting I think Jim Abbott is a "lesser individual," because I've known him since he was 16, thank you, and he is a fine, decent individual. I wish I had a son like him.
John
So kindly don't put words in my mouth.

[mouse7]

19. You used the word "ducking", not me.

I had the name Jim Abbott is the list, then you chose to say "Here's some athletes that didn't duck the draft. You chose to indict Jim Abbott, not me.

[5thGenDemocrat]

20. I would never call Jim Abbott a draft dodger

And I still don't like you putting words in my mouth. I know who ducked the draft -- and it surely wasn't Jim Abbott.
John
ON EDIT: Forget it.

[TLM]

79. his point was simple...

Just because you are physicaly fit enough to do something like ski, that doesn't mean you meet the standards for the military.

[DemBones DemBones]

11. Yes, Dean played several sports in prep school,

plus intramural football at Yale.


Seems like most guys trying to get a doctor's letter saying they were unfit for service (bad back, bad knee, whatever) back in the day had about the same amount of luck as most unmarried girls trying to get a prescription for birth control pills. Doctors weren't very sympathetic to young people, thought the military doctors should decide about whether something was enough of a problem to keep a man out of the service, thought girls should use an aspirin for birth control. (You know how that works, right?)

[Octafish]

122. Dean, like the RICH, got preferential treatment & defemerments...

33 Years Later, Draft Becomes Topic for Dean

EXCERPT...

In a 1970 article in The New York Times, Curtis W. Tarr, the director of Selective Service, said the rising number of medical deferments — from 24.2 percent of those examined in 1966 to 40.7 percent in July 1969 — was causing alarm in Washington.

"It's one of the real inequities left in the system," Mr. Tarr said, because young men from wealthier families could afford to pay for tests that might uncover some deferrable medical condition.

Dr. Dean was born on Nov. 17, 1948, and his eligibility for the draft was determined by a lottery held on Dec. 1, 1969. His birth date was 143, and in 1969 people with numbers as high as 195 were drafted from this group, which was composed of men born between Jan. 1, 1944 and Dec. 31, 1950, according to the Selective Service. In 1970 the highest number taken was 125, and in 1971 it was 95. Three subsequent lotteries were held to cover those born in later years.

SNIP...

A few weeks later, a letter arrived informing him that his draft classification had been changed from 2-S, the student deferment, to 1-Y. Under that classification, he was qualified for military service only in case of extreme national emergency, meaning that he effectively moved to the very back of the line.

SOURCE:

http://george.loper.org/~george/archives/2003/Nov/905.html

[mouse7]

123. JESUS! Thanks! Dean tried to volunteer!!!!!! No draft deferment!!!

This is the article the Dean people have needed to shut up all this draft dodging crud.

http://george.loper.org/~george/archives/2003/Nov/905.html

1)"In the winter of 1970, a 21-year-old student from Yale walked into his armed services physical in New York carrying X-rays and a letter from his orthopedist, eager to know whether a back condition might keep him out of the military draft...."

Dean did not know when he walked into the armed services physical whether he would be disqualified or not. The phrase "eager to know whether" indicated Dean did not know what the Armed Forces physician would be when he enter the office that day.


2)"...In early 1970, more than a year before Dr. Dean's student deferment was due to lapse, he decided to see where he stood.

If approved for service, he said, he thought he might try Officer Candidate School, as a Yale friend had done...."

Dean's lottery number NEVER came up. Dean still had a YEAR on his student deferment. Dean walked into his Armed Forces Physical ready to VOLUNTEER FOR ACTIVE DUTY THROUGH OFFICERS CANDIDATE SCHOOL.

To repeat... Dean did not get a deferment from the draft. Dean entered his Armed Forces Physical voluntarily intending to enter active duty service in Officer's Candidate School while his student deferment was STILL HAD A YEAR LEFT ON IT.

3) "A few weeks later, a letter arrived informing him that his draft classification had been changed from 2-S, the student deferment, to 1-Y."

Dean's draft status and student deferment were changed after he flunked the physical for VOLUNTARILY ATTEMPTING TO JOIN ACTIVE DUTY MILITARY SERVICE THROUGH OFFICER"S CANDIDATE SCHOOL. Dean was never given a draft deferment. Dean's draft status and student deferment status were changed as a result of the physical he took to volunteer for active duty!!!

No deferment. No rich versus poor stuff. Dean tried to volunteer for Officer's Candidate School and his back flunked the exam.

My... doesn't that make Dean's story take a completely different picture. Was Dean enthusiastically joining the service? No, apparently not. However, LOTS of people entered military service at that time not too thrilled about it. He certainly can't be faulted for that.

So what did Dean do again? He tried to volunteer for Officer's Candidate School unenthusiastically, brought complete medical records to his physical for Officer's Candidate School as is required, and flunked the physical. This prevented him from entering Officer Candidate School and active duty voluntarily, and was done more than a year before his student deferment ran out.

[lapauvre]

24. And what did Reagan do?

Special services.

[5thGenDemocrat]

25. I'm not here to defend Reagan

But "special services" is still one step up on "ski slope."
John
Their draft-dodger at least has a uniform -- what's Howard got?

[mouse7]

39. What's Howard got? Serious Chronic Back Pain.

For Dean to have gotten a 1-Y classification, he faces partially disabling back pain daily. They use kinda similar types of classifications for draft status as they do to rate medical disablities. Dean would have to already qualify for a some percentage medical disability to get that 1-Y status. I have no idea what percentage, but I've known quite a few people with just 10% disabilities for back problems that were in a lot of pain for the rest of their lives.

Now if you are going to say Ronald Reagan is a better candidate in any way, shape, or form than ANY potential nominee, get out of the Party. Now.

(Edited for typo.)

[5thGenDemocrat]

48. See? There you go putting words into my mouth again

I don't think Ronald Reagan is a better candidate in any way, shape or form than any potential nominee. First, he's got Alzheimer's and, second, he's ineligible for a third term, regardless (read the Constitution).
Having said that, is it okay if I stay in your party now?
John
I feel sorry for all those people you know with ten percent disabilities who (are) in a lot of pain for the rest of their lives. Is Howard Dean in this group, by any chance?

[mouse7]

56. If that's the best you have... no... get out.

If all you will say is that a Ronald Reagan candidacy is only worse than Dean because he's got advanced Altheimers Disease and he's consititionally ineligible to run, no, you have not said enough to be welcome in the party.

You're trying to be cute with your wordplay. I don't like "cute" when it slams a Democrat and compliments a neo-con.

As for Dean's back, I don't know if Dean currently suffers from chronic back pain. I know he would have with the diagnosis he had when the draft board physician decided he was not capable of 1-A medical status. It's been more than 30 years. There have been a lot of advancements in medical science since Dean got the deferment that allowed Dean's condition to be treated and healed or at least lessened significantly.

[5thGenDemocrat]

61. Well, I think Howard does a better job with the "rolled-up" sleeves look

Is that enough reason to vote for him? Can you give me some more reasons to vote for Dean or do I have to leave the party now?
John
I have 5300-plus posts to your less than 100 here. I must've missed the meeting where someone died and left you the arbiter of who is a Democrat and who isn't. I'm in the fifth generation of being a Democrat -- how you stacking?
You don't like "cute." Too goddamned bad.

[Mairead]

86. Check your facts, please

Dean doesn't experience 'serious chronic back pain' or 'partially disabling back pain daily'. That's completely false.

According to the orthopod society, Dean's condition causes few problems and they can almost always be resolved by rest. Surgery is not recommended except in severe cases, which Dean's very definitely is not ('severe' would have kept him from working as a muddie's laborer as he did after he walked away with his Get-Out-Of-The-Draft-Free card.)

Dean's problem amounts to occasional backaches and sciatica-like symptoms. Many people go through life -- and military service -- with the same condition and symptoms Dean has...but undiagnosed, because they're poor and living with pain is part of being poor.

[mouse7]

90. I see no links. I don't see Dean's medical records in hand, either.

1) "Orthopod society" googles blank. Ain't no such "thang." Don't criticise my facts when you are too lazy to post your supposed counterpoints accurately.

2) "Causes few problems and resolved by rest", huh? And what happens if a person with this condition has a schedule that doesn't allow for regular rest? Problems. So if a person with this condition does not operate on a somewhat reduced schedule, they suffer from CHRONIC PAIN. That's the very definition of a partial disability.

3) The very same doctors at the draft board see people of all income levels. Even if you make a case that more poor people do slide through the draft board procedures with this condition, that only means that more people with this condition failed to keep up with their units and were a burden to the units they served with. The Selective Service ruled this condition 1-Y for a reason. Those with the condition ARE NOT CAPABLE of serving in anything but as rear echelon in a national emergency. If poor people slid through the process to service in the field, they as a whole FAILED when they reached their duty station. That's why Selective Service rated that condition 1-Y in the first place. People in the service with said condition were PROVEN through experience not to be capable of front line duty.

-on edit: fixed typos

[Mairead]

94. Try these.

http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/fact/thr_report.cfm?Thread_ID=155&topcategory=Spine

http://www.orthoseek.com/articles/spondyl.html

http://www.spine.org/articles/spondylolisthesis.cfm

[mouse7]

104. Now what part of vertebra stress fracture don't you understand?

Of course the military cannot allow someone with a stress fracture in a lower vertebra on front line duty with a 75 lb. pack. Stress placed on stress fractures lead to... fractures! Fractured vertabra are BIG Problems. Major surgical intervention problems. Long term traction problems. Damaged nerve problems. Major medical expense for the Pentagon problems.

Is it painful? Somewhat, but that's not the big issue. What's at issue is the potential every stress fracture has for developing into a very high priced fully fractured vertebra. It would have cost the military thousands of dollars THEN to treat Dean's back if the stress fracture had complicated and become fully fractured.

Today, the miliary would tell a person to go home and rest, let it heal, and come back to enlist in 6 months to a year. Then, they probably gave a pretty similar diagnosis except maybe a two year period of ineligibilty. The big difference is thay cannot force someone into the draft more then once. The military had their chance to draft dean and his back was too messed up for the Pentagon to take the chance on those big medical bills. The Pentagon's rules stated pass. Dean obligation to present himself for military service was therefore served.

[Mairead]

109. Check your facts.

If Dean had wanted to join up, the military would not have even examined him for that problem. That's how important and disabling the military considers that condition to be. They wouldn't even have looked for it. They'd simply have accepted him. Sign here, kid.

It's a rich boys' escape-the-draft-free card.

[kayob1]

110. Check your facts, please

See post 101. You don't know what you are talking about.

[mouse7]

115. Check YOUR facts.

Where's this documentation that the military has disabiling medical DQs that they never check for?

The diagnosis is clearly a commonly known medical disgnosis. This isn't some tropical tse-tse fly disease that the medical community is completely in the dark about. You are the one that showed with three different links that stress fractures in this part of the back are common enough to generate enough interest to have three web pages for the condidtion. The docs are clearly not in the dark and know how to diagnose this condition. The very fact that these web pages exist are evidence that the doctors in fact check for and diagnose this condition.

The facts are clear. You can't handle the conclusions that clearly must be drawn from them. Howard Dean had a serious enough medical
condition to make him ineligible for military service. Your yelling is sound of one gnashing their teeth of denial of the truth.

[kayob1]

92. That's funny

"they can almost always be resolved by rest."

They kind of frown on that resting thing in basic training - in case you didn't know that. Gee, sorry, can't go on that 10-mile march (a requirement for graduating from basic) today, gotta rest. HAH! That was a good one.

[TLM]

80. what's Howard got?

A medical doctorate... Dean served his country by saving lives, not taking them.

[frustrated_lefty]

10. He received a medical deferment.

And I should object to this why>

[caledesi]

14. If all the repugs had to bring up the tired draft-dodger issue, they

are in sad shape. Is that all they have? Sounds pretty desperate to me. Who gives a f*ck about the draft anyhow. The Vietnam War was one of the biggest travesties in this country.

[RetroLounge]

88. Why should the repugs bring it up?

The Kerry, Clark and Gephardt supporters here do it for them.

I've never seen a political party so hell-bent on doing the other side's work for them.

[DemBones DemBones]

21. Are you aware that FDR could only walk with crutches?

He used a wheelchair as part of his normal routine, was able to walk some with crutches, and was propped into place when he spoke, more or less carried in with a big man on either side of him so that people didn't realize he was crippled.

His medical situation was vastly different from Howard Dean's.

Dean is challenged mostly because he's been so evasive and shifty about the story, "evolving "it over a period of time. There is also suspicion that he's evasive because he wasn't really entitled to the deferment but got a family friend who was an orthopedist to provide him with a letter and X-rays to show at his pre-induction physical.

And then there's the fact that he went on a year-long ski trip to celebrate not having to go to war, working construction and pouring concrete when he wasn't on the slopes.

If we criticize Bush for using his father's influence to get in the TANG, because some other Texas boy went to Viet Nam in his place, shouldn't we also criticize Dean for getting a questionable deferment and letting some other New York boy take his place in Viet Nam? He has said that he probably could have served and has admitted that he didn't want to.

[5thGenDemocrat]

22. And Howard Dean himself said "I probably could have served"

He probably could serve as President, too -- but not, by God, if I have anything to say about it.
John
But I probably won't. More's the pity.

[bushedout]

28. "Bad back" That's a good one

I use it all the time.

[Andromeda]

78. Did you serve? n/t

[TLM]

81. If he lied about his condition to the draft board...

Are you saying that Dean should have lied?

Would you want to be the guy who had to drag Dean's ass out of a rice patty after his back gave out?

It is sick to me that Dean bashers are so desperate to attack him that they'd suggest Dean should have lied to the draft board and thus put himself and his fellow soldiers in danger by hiding a condition that the military says makes him unfit for duty.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[5thGenDemocrat]

43. Dean's papers are gone, the x-rays are gone and the doctor is dead

How convenient for Dean.
John
All I know is Dean said himself that he "probably could've served." Too bad for the poor, unconnected schmuck who probably had to serve in his place.

[mouse7]

45. It's the Bushes that appear and disappear records, not Dems

If Dean's back wasn't capable of getting a medical deferment, the Bush evil empire would have had those document plastered all over every mass media source in the world by now.

If there was a shred of paper that remotely questioned anything about Dean's deferment, a doctor who did Dean exam, or a single member of Dean's draft board, Rush and O'Really would have been ranting about it months ago.

[bushedout]

50. Dean is a draft dodger

Get used to hearing it.

[mouse7]

57. You are wrong.

Get used to hearing it.

[Scott Lee]

98. POOP.

And get used to that response.

[5thGenDemocrat]

55. The papers and the x-rays are gone, disappeared, bye-bye

Heaven only knows who got rid of them. But someone got rid of them -- thankfully before those horrible BFEE operatives had a chance to get their hands on them and use them to smear Dean. Who knows what people might speculate about our kindly man of medicine otherwise?
John
Whoof -- that was close.

[mouse7]

59. Translation: 5thGen admits he has no evidence

5thGen is flailing. He has no basis for making his charges, so he claims that because he has no evidence, he is right.

Suuuuuuuuure.

[5thGenDemocrat]

63. I don't have any evidence

Because someone -- maybe Bush operatives -- maybe some other politician's operatives (who knows?) made them conveniently disappear.
But I swear I didn't do it. I never saw those files in my life. Really.
John
You say potato. I say he's a draft dodger.

[mouse7]

69. Your "evidence" proves UFOs or Bigfoot did it equally well

When a person has no evidence whatsoever, they can make all kinds of ridicualous claims as to sinister motivations. That's the neat thing about making claims with no basis whatsoever. Nobody can disprove a claim based on no evidence.

Why don't you call Agents Muldur and Scully to find out? Oh that's right... Even Muldur and Scully only investigated something with at least an X-File on record. You don't even have that.

[5thGenDemocrat]

71. Damned fine thing for Howard

You're right -- I can't prove it one way or another. But all I've said since this thread started is why I hope I don't have to vote for Dean.
You want Dean? Vote for Dean. I don't intend to. And, for the umpteenth time, what is your problem if I don't?
John
Neither of us is convincing anyone here. Difference is, I'm not trying to. You don't think Howard Dean ducked. You find him a worthy candidate. I say he did duck, and I won't vote for him unless I absolutely (and I mean within a few thousand votes in Michigan) have to.
Now, do you want the last word? Take it. I'm going to bed.

[TLM]

82. Are you saying he does not have the condition now?

please cite your proof of this.

[lapauvre]

26. If anybody is even going to waste a word

on this topic with regard to Dean, I think they are going to lose.

I am pro-military, and anti-war. Go figure.

I am uncomfortable with Dean, but it looks like he may well take the nomination. And the bunch of draft dodging republicans, including and especially GWB need to take on another topic. On this one, they can't win.

[5thGenDemocrat]

30. I'm glad you're pro-military

I enlisted in the United States Army when I was 17 years, three months and three days old and served for two years, eight months, 19 days, 21 hours, 36 minutes and 14 seconds.
How about yourself? Are you THAT pro-military?
I come from a family that has served this country in every war since the Revolution (except Bush War I). I have a nephew in the Air Force today and not one of us has ever been drafted or, for that matter, ducked a draft.
I say Howard ducked. Maybe that matters, maybe it doesn't. But I'm personally going to put off ever casting my vote for him unless Michigan polls say it's, like, 51-49 a day before the Presidential election.
If Dean's going to win or lose (I say lose) big in Michigan, he can do it without me. I'm pragmatic enough to know where my Democratic bread is buttered and I'll vote for him if I absolutely need to in a too-tight election, but I surely won't add my hosanna to his almighty name otherwise.
John
That's just a fact.

[OrAnarch]

31. Funny...

It is because he avoided fighting an unjust war for America's ruling class and killing innocent Vietnam humans that I would still consider voting for him.


For those who did head off to a jungle not our own, and have not yet apologized for such actions, I wouldn't waste my time.

[Old and In the Way]

33. Yes, I agree...

Clinton got a deferment and he was against the war...it didn't hurt him.

OTOH, he was not a chickenhawk...that rare bird that loves the business opportunity a good war brings...as long as it's not his ass on the firing line.

I was 26 in my lottery....I was prepared to find some reason not to go fight that immoral war. Lucky for me they stopped the draft shortly thereafter..

[kaitykaity]

36. Trying to convince people who don't like Dean that

getting a 1Y is not draft dodging is the same as trying
to convince people who love Bush that missing 18 months
of National Guard service is being AWOL when your commander
doesn't give you permission or leave.

People who hate Dean want him to be a draft-dodger.
People who love Bush insist the 18 months don't matter.

It's a mind-set. Unchangeable because the evidence is
subject to interpretation, and the interpretation is
set in stone.

<I'm not calling Dean-haters Republicans here. I'm just
saying they are engaging in similar behavior. Sorry in
advance if it crosses the line.>

[5thGenDemocrat]

37. kaitykaity

I don't disagree with a word of your post or the posts above yours.
I'm just pointing out why I (personally, myself) won't vote for Dean unless I have to.
I say Bush ducked. I say Howard ducked. That's me. But I'll cast my vote for whatever reasons and for whichever person I choose to. Or maybe I'll decide not to vote at all. It's my one vote and I'll do with it what I wish.
John
Or maybe I won't do anything with it. It's still my call.

[kaitykaity]

44. Oh, don't take your ball and go home.

I was just marveling at the similarities. I have
a 'friend' (aka a conservocreep who can't stop talking to
me) who wants me to believe the 1Y is draft-dodging
but Bush skating out on his NG duty is unimportant.
(And hey, the draft-dodging label didn't seem to hurt
Clinton any, did it?)

We need every single vote that we can get. It's
ABB all the way for ALL of us. Right? If you don't
like Dean, fine. Just don't make stuff up about him.

[mouse7]

47. I say you are flinging insults without basis or evidence.

And you just admitted I'm right.

Reasonable people care if insults are have any basis in fact whatsoever. If you wish to be unreasonable, you have the constitutional right to do so.

However, I reserve the right to point at your claims and show they have no merit when you are exclaiming them publically.

[5thGenDemocrat]

58. So, if you disagree, vote your conscience

I certainly intend to do the same.
I'll vote for Dean if the election is close in Michigan (within a couple of points). Otherwise I won't. Aside from that, what do you want from me and why should you remotely care about getting my single, puny, uninformed, naive, delusional vote, anyhow?
John
Dean is inevitable. He's a steamroller, okay? You Dean Supporters are going to win in a walk so, as Mouse so gently suggested, I should probably just leave the party and leave more room for you truly enlightened individuals.
My eyes have been opened!! Thanks for the tip and good luck in the election!!

[mouse7]

62. 'Cause you're putting "puny, uninformed opinion" on thread

If you are going to share your opinion in threads, be prepared to back up your "puny, uninformed opinions" with hard evidence. Don't share opinions which harm the potential nominees without facts, or expect to be forced to have your opinions to be shown as "puny and uninformed."

By the way, as I said a few minutes ago on the thread, I'm not a Dean supporters. I'm a depressed former Wellstone supporter who's now simply ABB. I'll support the nominee enthusiastically. However, the Lieberman/Kerry attack dog act really ticked me off. There's a good chance Dean is going to be the nominee, and I'm not going to sit around and simply watch people hurt the party's chances to win in November.

[5thGenDemocrat]

68. "Hurt the party's chances to win in November"

And, let me think here -- by your telling me to get out, the party's chances are IMPROVED in November? Glad I can help and I'm glad you're doing your part, too.
John
Guess I just have to go somewhere else.

[mouse7]

75. Short term minor loss, Long term major gain.

The progressive movement doesn't need people who are so intent on sharing so many negatives about progressive candidates publically. The manner in which you've made completely unjustified charges costs us far more than your single vote. If the price we have to pay to get your vote is a dark mass of ranting the whole way from now till November, then no, we don't need you. You will cost us far more than that in potential supporters that get turned off and turned away by your attacks.

[OrAnarch]

38. Then let him be a draft dodger...

And then let us reach out and teach some sensability to the American public at last that dodging conscription, in such a case as the Vietnam war, is a highly moral activity, whearas being coerced to go kill humans in some far off jungle that doesn't threaten America is suggestive of a gullible or dubious personality. :)

[5thGenDemocrat]

41. Or, maybe, "coerced" into filing papers in Fort Dix, New Jersey

Either way, with rights come responsibilities. Unless you're rich enough or well-connected enough to duck it.
John
Vote for who you want to. I couldn't possibly care less.

[OrAnarch]

46. Sure...

Filing papers can still be considered a contribution to a military movement that you may not agree with at that time. Give credit where it is due, and such should go to those who take a complete stand against that unjust war.

BTW, there is no American responsibility to attack foreign nations that comes with our "rights". Furthermore, sustained foreign invasion is not a prerequisite to our lifestyle, despite what the rightwing told you.

Ducking a draft doesn't take money or power always. Sometimes just an inventive attitude and a lot of belief and patriotism. My family is anything but well connected, but my father is still alive. Meanwhile, he cannot even count his friends who have fallen dead in that conflict or put a hole in their head upon return.

[5thGenDemocrat]

51. I respect enormously those who went to Canada

They thought they'd never see their families or their homes again. That took true courage. I also respect those who avoided the draft and, because of conscience, fought the Selective Service System by working in the anti-war movement. I know some of both.
Remind me again which of those two Howard Dean did.
John
The first soldier from Saginaw County killed in Vietnam, Bookie Bowman, lived around the corner maybe 300 feet from here. Damned shame he wasn't more inventive or patriotic, I guess. But I know his family is proud of his service and I'll always respect him, too.

[mouse7]

49. In WWII, that's what Dean would have been doing

In WWII, the military used 1-Ys for rear echelon duty. In Vietnam, the military chose not to use 1-Ys.

Complain to the military.

[mouse7]

42. There is NO interpretation to a medical deferment

Dean couldn't have his mommy write him a note to get a medical deferment. The Selective Service Sytem made the medical standards and Selective Service System doctor made the examination and decision on Dean deferment.

Dean's family doctor didn't make the decision. The doctor assigned by Dean local draft board did.

[clarknyc]

52. This is SOOO sad, so sickening...

Democrats -- DEMOCRATS -- attempting to make serving in Vietnam -- a seriously fucking unjust war -- an issue. What bullshit. None of you would have wanted to serve there. Dean didn't either. But he showed up for his physical. They said that they didn't want him because he wasn't fit to serve, except in an emergency.

Vietnam was no more just than what we're currently engaged with in Iraq. So, if any of you have a REAL problem with Dean's exclusion from service there...have you volunteered to serve in Iraq? You should, if you want to be regarded seriously. Really.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OrAnarch]

73. Then you should know,

It was all bullshit, and hence, should politically be a non-issue.

[TLM]

83. Had they rejected you for a back problem...

Would that make you a draft dodger?


Or would you have to go on with your life and do something physical in order for your dferment to be considered draft dodging?

[kaitykaity]

114. "kiss off" is very mature.

we must be getting to you, you know you're wrong
and are degenerating into personal attacks because
that's all you have left.

tsk tsk tsk.

[5thGenDemocrat]

53. Well, thank goodness you cleared that up for me

I'm still not voting for Dean, though.
John
Isn't it nice to live in a country where we all used to have a voice?

[Egnever]

60. So you are going to your caucus then?

Who will you be suporting?

[5thGenDemocrat]

64. I will vote for who I will vote for

In the caucus, it won't be Dean. In the general, it won't be Dean, either, unless Michigan is too close to call.
It won't be Bush (or Reagan either) in any event. I'm committed to ABB.
John
I intend to vote for someone besides Bush.

[mouse7]

65. Use your voice to "support" rather than "tear down"

No candidate has enough supporters out on the ground or the web advocating good reasons why you should support your favorite candidate. Instead you've spent hours tonight trying to damage a potential party nominee.

Work for positive change. Stop the attacks. You'll find your opinions much more well recieved.

[5thGenDemocrat]

67. I don't care if you like my opinions or my vote, either

I'm not here to earn your approval.
John
I don't care if every single person on DU or in the USA votes for Dean. I have a vote of my own and I'll cast it as I choose. What's your problem with that? (You, after all, are the one who said I should just leave the party. You or Howard gonna miss me when I go?)

[mouse7]

70. Gee, thanks for sharing

Do me a favor. Block me. Then my threads will torture your complete lack of preparation for political discussions no longer.

[5thGenDemocrat]

72. Done

[OrAnarch]

74. In case you wondered....

To argue adamently without logic strips away your credibility on political issues, which causes people to stop listening to you, which takes away the point of participating on a political forum regarding candidates. I truly do not mean that as an attack...Im sure you have a lot to offer, and in such case, you should let other see that if you want to make a difference. And if you do not, and only use such forum to vent, then vent away to your heart's delight.

[ima_sinnic]

84. you "don't care"--right

. . . for someone who doesn't care so much you spend an awful lot of energy bitterly denouncing Dean for being, in paraphrase, "rich and connected enough to get a doctor's note," distorting the true conditions and circumstances of a medical deferment. Sounds like a personal problem to me.

[bowens43]

85. Even though Dean isn't one,

in my opinion being a draft dodger during the Vietnam era is a big PLUS. There is nothing dishonorable about refusing to participate in an unjust and illegal war.

[Mairead]

89. I think there were different ways to do it.

Someone who uses his wealth and privilege to get a personal exemption but who does nothing to oppose the war is a little different, wouldn't you say, to someone who stands up, declares he won't play, and participates in organised opposition?

[mouse7]

91. Whatta cartload of...

The Pentagon set the medical standards.

The draft board enforced said Pentagon medical standards.

The draft board doctor, working for the Pentagon through the local draft board, ruled that Dean was ineligible for military service.

The Pentagon set the medical standards. The Pentagon enforced the medical standards. The Pentagon ruled that Howard Dean was of no use to the Pentagon.

Don't like the Pentagon's ruling, bitch at the Pentagon.

edit-typo

[Mairead]

96. Check your facts, please

Dean applied for that deferment using a letter and xrays obtained privately. The Army does not do spinal xrays during an induction physical, and the condition cannot be diagnosed without them.

The condition -- spondylolisthesis -- is a very common one, especially among HS athletes. Plenty poor black kids no doubt went to 'Nam with occasional backaches that, if they'd had the wealth and privilege, could have been turned into an escape-the-draft-free card just like Dean's.

Those are the facts.

[mouse7]

99. PENTAGON doen't want or need disabled on front line duty

Here's the one point you seem beyond comprehending... the PENTAGON did not want people to serve in the military with the medical condition Dean had. No back conditions. No flat feet. No cancer patients. Nobody with tuberculosis. Military has lots of disqualifying conditions.

Rich or poor has nothing to do with whether or not you have the genetic material that causes disqualifying conditions. Money doesn't determine who is and is not physically capable of serving their country. NOBODY is disabled because of the money their family has. Either the medical problem is present, or it is not present. It is NOT Dean's fault if some poor people were moved into active duty with disqualifying medical conditions. The Pentagon messed up in those cases and took people IT DID NOT WANT. As a result of said "poorer" individuals being inducted in poor health, the Pentagon was burdened with health care problems it DID NOT WANT. You seem to suggest that in some warped manner it would be appropriate for Dean to have served on a front line unit as a result of poorer individuals being incapable of affording some diagnosic exams, x-rays, etc. How is it appropriate for Dean to place even more of a burden on a front line unit with his medical condition than mistakes already cause the Pentagon. The Pentagon doesn't want people with disqualifying medical conditions. Your "appropriate" solution makes the situation worse for the Pentagon and worse for any unit Dean would be sent to... and all becasue you think it's appropriate for those with means to act in false nobility and deny themselves the medical exams the Pentagon wants them to take completely and honestly.

It's neither appropriate nor noble to force the members of a unit to be forced to pick up the slack of someone who is not medically capable of serving in a front line unit. The Pentagon is correct to screen as many as possible that cannot pass minimum medical standards. It's appropriate for all people being screened to do their best to provide complete medical infomation during induction exams. Dean did that. That's what Dean was responsible for. Dean was NOT responsible for the errors of the whole freakin' Selective Service system.

[kayob1]

101. What they do during an induction physical

and I know because I have been through one - is ask you everything that is currently wrong with you and what your past medical history is back to day one. If you mention anything that doesn't meet their standards, guess what they do? IMMEDIATELY stop you in the induction process and tell you to get a letter from a private doctor before you can go any further.

If you tell your recruiter you have a medical problem that doesn't meet their standards before you go to the physical, he will tell you to bring your medical records - such as an x-ray - as well as a letter from a doctor stating you would be able to make it through basic training, which is very physically demanding.

I knew several people who did lie about their physical condition get put back in the training process - several times - because they kept having to go to sick call and ultimately were kicked out because they just could not keep up physically.

Not only do I know this because I went through a military physical, but my son - with a pre-existing medical condition - also went through one. He was not allowed to go any further in the induction process until he had a letter from a private doctor.

My other son, on the other hand, who is currently serving, has very flat feet - which would have automatically rejected him in my day and before, letter or no letter. He is now stationed at Fort Lewis.

THOSE are the facts.

[mikehiggins]

105. Where and when did you take an induction exam?

I wish I had been there.

I took mine in 1965 at Whitehall Street in Manhattan and it was, quite literally, shut the fuck up and do what we tell you.

I wear corrective lenses and that was about the first thing they checked. I then got to spend the rest of the day having my blood taken, my ass checked and all the rest of it.

At the end of the day they told me I wasn't qualified because of my eyesight, and was classified 1-Y, just like Dean. I only wish I had a doctor that would have given me a note and some medical records, but it wouldn't have made any difference at all at Whitehall Street.

Ironically, I actually wanted to go at the time. I was, as they say in the Army YDAFOC and would have paid them to take me out of the life I was living. Later, of course, I learned to appreciate the fact that I was still alive to live it. Having your friends blown to shit can do that to you.

To sum up, a 1-Y is not draft dodging. Its the military's call.

Nothing like the Air National Guard, not at all.

[kayob1]

106. I had my physical

in 1979 San Diego, California. Must be when they turned into the 'kinder, gentler' military. Though I don't think they are allowed to say "shut the fuck up" to the girls.

[Michigander4Dean]

93. Indeed! At least Dean didn't go AWOL!

Unlike someone I know <cough>BU<cough>USH<cough>

[Octafish]

102. Dean dodged the draft. Fact. Then he went skiing. Fact.

These facts are what make Dean unelectable. It's also why Dean doesn't deserve to be President any more than Smirk, another draft dodger. No one in the armed forces should have to follow the orders of someone who wasn't willing to fight for their country when called. — Octafish

Dean admits using deferment to skirt draft

November 24, 2003

BY DAVID RENNIE

WASHINGTON -- Howard Dean, the front-runner for the Democratic presidential nomination, has admitted dodging the Vietnam draft, obtaining a medical deferment for a back condition and then spending 10 months skiing.

Asked if he could have served 33 years ago despite his back condition, Dean told the New York Times: "I guess that's probably true. I mean, I was in no hurry to get into the military."

Dean's candor may not have been wholly voluntary.

CONTINUED...

http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-nws-dean24.html

[mouse7]

107. Wrong.

What part of stress fracture of a lower vertebra don't you understand?

The miliary does not take people into the military with stess fractures in bones in the back. Add stress to stress fractures and you get fractured vertabra.

Would it have been permanently disabling? No. Rest heals it. Rest over a period of months/years.

Are stress fractures terribly painful? No. That's not the issue. Dean feeling fairly decent isn't the issue to the Pentagon. The issue is the huge financial exposure the Pentagon would be opening itself up to should that stress fracture in that verebra worsen. Do 100% worsen into fracture vertabra? No. Do 25%? Probably not. But if 5-10% do worsen into fractured vertebra, it gets real expensive, real quick. Surgery traction and looooong term hospitalization are not very cheap, even if the person is in a military hospital.

Of course the Pentagon gave Dean a waiver. To risk that much financial exposure on a draftee would be silly.

[Octafish]

113. So, Dean had a broken back, then?

It wasn't spondylolesthesis, like Dean said? Wow! It really was a miracle Dean could go skiing for 80 days.

BTW: Dean loved the moguls.

The Worst of Howard Dean
A troubling tale from his past. Is it true?

By William Saletan and Ben Jacobs
Posted Thursday, Aug. 28, 2003, at 8:15 AM PT

Slate continues its short features on the 2004 presidential candidates. Previous series covered the candidates' biographies, buzzwords, agendas, worldviews, and claims to fame. This series assesses the story that supposedly shows each candidate at his worst. Here's the one told by critics of Howard Dean—and what they leave out.

Charge: In 1971, Dean, who had been a wrestling team captain in high school, received a draft deferment for an unfused vertebra in his back. In the Aug. 15, 2002, Aspen Times, Dean said he "skied 80 days" in Aspen during the winter of 1971-72. The Times reported that Dean "loved skiing bumps," otherwise known as moguls. (Some health publications note that moguls can put particular stress on the spine.) "It was a great time to be a kid and do something relatively fun," Dean recalled. He added that he also worked that year "pouring concrete." Time reported on Aug. 11, 2003, that Dean spent the year "skiing and bumming around. … He hit the slopes, tried pot, washed dishes, poured concrete and drank impressive amounts of beer." On June 22, 2003, Tim Russert asked Dean on Meet the Press, "Why were you able to ski on Ajax Mountain, pounding your back, and pouring concrete, and not serve in the military?"

SOURCE:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2087543/

[mouse7]

116. No, Dean had stress fracture in the back

It was spondylolesthesis just as Dean's doctors said. Here the link to the web page that you bud in denial posted...

http://www.spine.org/articles/spondylolisthesis.cfm

Spondylolesthesis IS a stress fracture of a lower vertebra. Sorry you are in denial over Dean's true medical conditions.

There is a huge difference between stress fracture in a vertebra and a broken back. Just because you are in denial does not mean I will allow you to twist the facts to suit your mistaken assumptions. Most of the reason for disqualification of people for this injury is the potential greater injuries that stress fractures lead to when placed under additional stress.

As for skiing mogals, my uncle loves mogal skiing too. He goes for skiing for a couple of weeks every year. My uncle is 73. Skiing moguls might put some stress on the back but it's nothing like that that would be caused from having a 75 lb pack on one's back 24/7. The amount of stress caused on a back by skiing is also directly related to the the whole momentum question in physics. If you are going 100 mph down a mogul hill, then a large amnount of stress would be generated. If you are going 2 mph down a mogal hill, then obviously very little stress will be generated.

Now... lets look at these skiiers as an example...

http://www.canuck.com/cads/pages/2003WinterParkPhotos.html

Those guys do some really great skiing, huh? Are you going to suggest that any of the individuals in those pictures should be eligible for the miliatry draft? I bet every one of them flies down a mountain three times faster than Dean on his best day, huh? (or anybody on this message board for that matter).

You cannot just jump up and down and scream "SKIER!" and even remotely hope it proves anything whatsoever about the physical heath of the person going down the hill. Because a person is physically capable of achieveing some activities does not mean they are capable of doing any and all activities.

[Octafish]

118. Dean's back was good enough to ski on.

Thanks for the information on the many people who can enjoy the sport of skiing. There's only one problem. None of those are running for President. Howard Dean is.

While you and the many other DUers — many of whom are my DU Friends — will support Dean, no matter the extent of his broken back bone or what I write — there is a much larger number of Americans who will disqualify him for consideration as President. They are Repukes and the 35-percent of the middle-of-the-roaders who call themselves Independent. It's a good bet most of them do not want a man to be commander-in-chief who was not willing to serve when called on himself. How can the men and women in the armed forces follow an order into harm's way from a man who was not willing to serve when called?

[zulchzulu]

125. I've met Viet Nam vets who had back problems WHO SERVED

Face it.

Howard

Was

A

Coward.

[mouse7]

128. Face it. Dean volunteered for Officers CandidateSchool

The military made the decision not to accept Dean.

That is the way it was.

I don't care who you claim to have met. You also claimed that Dean could have taken other kinds of physicals for desk jobs that haven't existed since WWII.

[Johnyawl]

103. FDR WAS NEVER SUBJECT TO A DRAFT!!!

The draft for WWI only drafted 19-21 year olds. By 1917 FDR was 35 years old! He was also Undersecretary of the Navy.

[mouse7]

108. FDR was disabled and President. Dean had health issues...

... and is running for President.

Disabled people are capable of doing many active things without being capable of front line miliatry service. They are also capable of doing a good job as President while being disabled or having health issues.

[Johnyawl]

111. FDR was NOT disabled ...

...when he was eligible for military service. He was 39 years old when he was striken with poliomyelitis (infantile paralysis).

FDR never saw military service, but he never actively tried to avoid it, for any reason. He was just too young for the Spanish American War, and too old for WWI. He wasn't paralysed until 1921, after WWI ended.

Your initial post started out:
Draft dodgers! Dean and FDR!

Both qualified for medical deferments from the draft.

This is a complete fabrication. FDR was never in his life subject to the draft, so how could he be a draft dodger, or qualify for a medical deferment from the draft?

Disabled people are capable of doing many active things without being capable of front line miliatry service. They are also capable of doing a good job as President while being disabled or having health issues.

I quite agree. It doesn't take military experiance to be a good CnC, even in wartime. What I don't agree with is distorting the facts to try and prove your point.

[mouse7]

117. Dean and FDR would have been same type of draft dodger...

... a "disabled draft dodger."

I'm using FDR as an example of what they are actually accusing Dean of. Those in denial of Dean's real medical status on this thread are attempting to claim that Dean was "dodging" the draft becasue the Pentagon disqualified Dean from service for medical reasons.

After FDR was striken with polio, FDR was clearly disabled. FDR at that point in his life was not capable of front line military duty. However, he clearly was cable of being a great president, right?

You're too much of the specific detail of the comparison and not looking at the general statement the comparison makes. FDR had health problems and was physically limited but was capable of being a great president. Dean was dignosed with a disabling condition and wasn't able to serve in the military, yet is capable of being a good President in spite of being physically disqualified.

By the way, you are wrong on the issue of FDR and the draft. All American men from 18-65 are included in Selective Service laws. Selective Service regs applied to FDR even after he came down with polio. Hypothetically, were there a really dire national emergency (ex. asteroid hit) , all American men 18-65 could be ordered to report. In that hypothetical situation, FDR would THEN recieve his medical deferment at that time for his polio.

See... the Dean/FDR comparison works :)

[Johnyawl]

119. You continue to make things up, trying to prove your comparison works

This is just pure bullshit, without any basis in fact:

All American men from 18-65 are included in Selective Service laws. Selective Service regs applied to FDR even after he came down with polio. Hypothetically, were there a really dire national emergency (ex. asteroid hit) , all American men 18-65 could be ordered to report

A) THERE WAS NO SELECTIVE SERVICE WHEN FDR CAME DOWN WITH POLIO.

We had conscription during WWI,(which FDR was not subject to because he was too old) but the draft mechanism was dissolved at the end of hostilities. SO THERE WAS NO SELECTIVE SERVICE REGS TO BE APPLIED TO FDR WHEN HE CAME DOWN WITH POLIO.

We did not have a draft again until 1940, by which time FDR was President. The draft law was again allowed to expire at the end of WWII. In 1947 we reconstituted the draft in response to the cold war. It was at that time that the Selective Service came into permanent existance.

B) The Selective Service laws only require men between the ages of 18-25 to register. THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES ELIGIBLE TO BE CALLED UP. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO PROVISION TO CALL UP MEN OVER THE AGE OF 25. NONE WHATSOEVER, NOT EVEN AN ASTEROID HITTING THE EARTH!


It's become obvious that you don't know what your talking about, have absolutely no knowledge of history, and have taken to writing fiction to prove a comparison that doesn't work. Face facts dude, you made an invalid comparison to prove a valid point.

[TexasSissy]

120. I think the pt. is that he actively sought the deferment.

He showed up at the exam with his x-rays, hoping for a deferment. He has admitted that, to his credit (to continue to deny that would make it look worse).

How much does that matter? Don't know. It was Vietnam, a place where we shouldn't have been in the first place.

But one thing is certain: it's a PLUS when someone didn't actively seek to get out of it, even if it was Vietnam. Especially when it was Vietnam.

[mouse7]

127. The point is he volunteered not certain he would get flunked

He signed his name on the dotted line for active duty service in the military in Officer Candidate School. Federal law requires you to bring any and all medical record that may be germane to your Armed Forces Physical Exam. It didn't matter whether Dean was gleeful or horrified about bring those medical files and x-rays. Federal Law requires it to be be brought.

Dean did not wait till his number was called or his student deferment ran out. Dean volunteer for active duty more than a year before his deferment ran out. see post #123. It changes the entire discussion.

[TexasSissy]

129. Sorry. Dean has admitted seeking deferment (on TV in interview)

[Gore1FL]

126. except this implies Dean was drafted

his number enver came up.

Not being drafted and dodging the draft are two entirely separte things.

I'd expect spin like this from right-wing pundits who brainwash the intellectually lazy, but please don;t try it with me.

There are plenty of legitimate things to complain about with Dean or any of the candidates. They are all stronger than Bush.

If you are going to waste your time complaining about a candidate, at least find something a little less fictional.

[mouse7]

130. The facts are linked from the NY Times. You are wrong.

Dean attempted to volunteer for active duty - OCS - more than a year before his student deferment ran out.

Dean never dodged the draft. He attempted to vomuteer for active duty more than a year before it was even possible for Dean to be drafted. He flunked the military admission physical in the same way that people flunk the physical in the all volunteer army.

Dean's draft situation never came up. Never. You can't dodge the draft if you've never been a candidate for the draft.