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[Name removed]

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[salib]

1. It was a courageous position

Funny, come to think of it, I was driving with my fiance through Vermont when the whole IWR discussion/debate/grandstanding was going on over the radio. Anyway, it was rare enough to hear anything strongly challenging *'s position at that time, and became even more rare as the "war" approached and then was prosecuted. Mostly, that discussion (dissent, if one could call it that), as I remember it, consisted of a lot of question about whether we would be involved in a "long drawn-out" disaster "like Vietnam." Dean was one of the most coherent, direct and persistent voices. So, it does make him stand out, even now, when it is much easier to be "against" the war but in favor of "staying the course now that we are already there."

So, while I would be ecstatic to support any of the dem's in the running, I must say that I was greatly excited by a voice that was rare to hear, yet strong and clear, at a time when I was very depressed politically.

[isbister]

2. Re: ...courageous position

Weren't the polls overwhelmingly against bush's unilateral war and in favor of our going to the UN at the time of the IWR?

[Name removed]

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[isbister]

6. Doesn't let me down...

I knew/know Dean's stance and I knew/know Kerry's.

Dean portray's himself as being the courageous candidate and people seem to forget that it took a lot of mis-information out of the White House after the IWR before the polls turned to favor bush's war.

[salib]

7. You have not let me down

I do not know what either Dean's or Kerry's position was at the time of the vote. I did not hear anything about Dean until January, or so. I am glad to hear that Kerry's statements were similar to Dean's, perhaps even stronger. I did not hear many of those though, at that time, and fewer later at the "march to war" progressed. However, when Dean did speak out forcefully, it was a voice that caught my attention, and many of my similarly disheartened friends. Maybe he was simply more direct, or covered by the press more, although I do not know why the later would have been true. Instead, I heard people I expected "better" from giving * what I thought amounted to a blank check.

As far as what the polls were, I do not precisely remember. I did see that after the IWR vote, just as after 9-11, *'s numbers went way up (saw that in another post here on Saturday). I recall the "feeling" that I was a total "outsider" both in D.C. and in Texas.

Still, food for thought for youse guys. The experience is real, and it impacts my opinion of Dean to this day.

[isbister]

9. Curious...

Have you ever read the resolution?

http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/iraq/text/1010res.htm

Many people haven't.

[sandnsea]

11. Who wasn't saying that?

Almost every Democrat was concerned about Iraq turning into a mess like Vietnam. That's why Kerry laid out a very specific plan in the summer of 2002 and began criticizing Bush on his unilateralism and pushing him to the UN. Dean didn't take a courageous position at all. He just reinvented himself as the anti-war candidate and everybody bought it.

Dennis Kucinich. He was against war from the start. He supported a diplomatic solution ONLY.

It is not logical to support a resolution that would authorize a war and then call yourself against the war from the start.

[arewethereyet]

3. yep, thats about it

And Kucinich's opposition to the war doesn't really count.

That and a snarl is all he has to differentiate himself and his handlers are trying like bad to get some Botox into his face so he physically can't do it. I think so far Mrs Dr has nixed the injectables.

[revcarol]

5. I would say NO.

The other thing he has is:
when the other candidates call him on his lies, flim-flams, and "corrections" that are the opposite of what he said originally, he HOLLERS to his supporters,"They're picking on me. Send money"...and they do.

Then, he claims he is a winner and right all along because of MONEY.

[isbister]

8. There is no bigger lie...

that he has and continues to peddle than "voted for the war"

[Clark4VotingRights]

13. That was the only specific answer given in the previous thread.

Dean distinguishes himself from his rivals by...fundraising.

Then his supporters would just refer us to his website, while ducking
the original (and now repeated) question.

Please name one policy of Howard Dean's that you feel is stronger
than his rivals. One specific policy. Any policy.

It seems like such a fundamental question.

[DemBones DemBones]

14. Yep, money is a big argument he and his supporters use,

and he certainly has raised a lot of money.

But if money makes him better than the other Dems, more likely to win than the other Dems, what does that say about Bush, who has far more money than Dean?

If money is the answer, Bush has already won.

[sandnsea]

10. Revert to his earlier message

In that same AP article:

"The decision to shift gears came at a high-level meeting on Monday in which Dean was urged by top advisers to revert to his earlier message that had moved him from an obscure former governor of Vermont to a front-runner."

Yep, anti-war vote and anti-establishment. That's all Dean has.

[Democratista]

12. I think so

n/t

[DemBones DemBones]

15. Yes. Yet, at the last debate, Dean said votes on IWR didn't matter.

Huh? Hasn't he been saying. . . :shrug:

Even stranger, at the last debate, Dean claimed "I was the ONLY one to oppose the war all along, except Dennis, of course. And Al. And Carol."

If four out of eight people opposed the war, saying you were the only one is just not true, and sounds very silly when you start naming the other three who also opposed the war all along. Maybe he could say he was the only former governor of Vermont to oppose the war.

I also heard him talking with reporters after the debates and he said his health care plan was just like Dennis's (which it is NOT) but easier to get through Congress.

He campaigns by lying and trusting that no one will check up on him and call him on his lies. With a complacent media and complacent supporters, it's worked fairly well for him. It's depressing to see DUers buying his lies with nary a complaint. Instead, they take delight that he gets away with it. I don't understand that. If it's wrong for Bush, it's wrong for Dean.