R. Simon "polls week after week show Nader hurting Bush"

[LimpingLib]

He says Democrats should be encouraging Nader to stay on the ballot and infact get on more ballots as he is clealy taking more votes from Bush.


I think this is YET another example of me being the only one of us poll obsessed fanatics who actualy has had a clue. I was all alone in saying that Nader hurts Bush more this time many moons ago.

In 2000 exit polls showed Naders votes resulted from taking 38%-47% of his 2.7% from Gore and 21%-25% from Bush and 32%-38% from those who would vote for neither.I have explained all along why it wont happen again this time (taking more from the Democrat) and backed up my factual statements with poll after poll MONTHS AGO.Too bad Im tired of pissing into the wind , thats all Im going to waste my time saying.

I just wanted to drop a "I told you so" turd on all the people here who fought Naders lame attempts (more like a none atempt)to get on state ballots. It will be a main reason Bush narrowly beats Kerry in many states, hopefully enough new progressive voters Nader brought into the system in 2000 (despite the same people who moaned months ago about Nader ALSO retarding the progressive voter roll growth that very year) will offset those losses.

Aside from my proud boast, I still feel bad about the sorry state these whinny partisans have brought on the progressive movement (more like a disintegration movement thanks to dirty tricks by paid partisan egos and even worse endless talking down by uninformed idiots-being those who moaned about Nader endlessly while facts stared them straight in the face telling what a benefit he IS to the very cause they claim to champion:electing a Democrat President).

[MidwestTransplant]

1. In some ways I agree

I just don't see how any person who would otherwise vote and voter for Kerry would vote for Nader after what happened last time. Nader could be a decent protest vote for Republicans though.

[Liberal Veteran]

2. ROTFLMAO!

Yeah. Bush voters are gonna turn out in droves for someone to the far LEFT of Kerry?

:eyes:

[LimpingLib]

12. NEWSFLASH:::::::99% of the world coundnt give a shit .....

.... about our petty partisan crap. "D" vs "R" is less exciting that then a little round of rock,paper,scissors to most people in this country and worldwide.

They dont see things in even "left vs right " terms. And if they do then many think that social issues are the only dividing factor in this race with all other issues being a shared position among the 2 canidates.

Lots of Pro Life voters who are strong reformers (progressive populist types without evn knowing it) will very much prefer Nader.

Know how I know? Just a few days ago a family member of a friend of mine had Bounty Hunters plant drugs in her yeard to justify a break in without a warrent. The reason was to try and find her SEPERATED (and "wanted" it seems)husband who doesnt even speak to her anymore and hasnt lived there in months.Even the police knew the drugs were planted when the poor girl reported what happened. The bounty hunters have unlimited powers it seems.They didnt even show their names to the girl they manhandled after they broke in.

The socialy conservative family can only support Nader now.

[Liberal Veteran]

25. 99% of the world isn't voting in our election anyway....

But the notion that fetus worshipers are gonna go for Nader is laughable.

[LoZoccolo]

26. What do bounty hunters have to do with anything?

Is getting rid of them part of Nader's agenda? If it is, I didn't even know that and probably not many other people do. This is because rather than pushing issues, Nader's pushing himself and pushing revenge on the Democrats. Shows you how much he cares about that issue.

[Guava Jelly]

3. Nader isnt hurting bush at all Repeat after me SPIN

conservative nutbags and religous fanatics as well as rednecks are just flocking to Nader
Give me a fucken break

[peppersnick]

6. yeah... Nader does have the crazies just not those crazies

[PretzelWarrior]

4. you took one too many acid hits. no way that Nader is hurting Bush

and I am laughing at you for saying it. FOLLOW THE MONEY?!??!

Guarantee if GOP thought so...they wouldn't be driving the issue in so many states while DEMS are actively fighting it at every turn.

But whatever makes you feel happy.

[Liberal Veteran]

18. I get the feeling some people think we are as stupid as they are...

:)

[KittyWampus]

5. Funny, I've Never Seen You Post Before

:shrug:

[LoZoccolo]

7. Whiny partisans check in here.

Here.

[geek tragedy]

20. Just don't call us "shrill." eom

[Warren DeMontague]

8. Bush Supporters are FUNDING Nader.

They aren't voting for him.

Nice try.

[montana500]

9. yeah Nader really hurt Bush in Florida 2000 nm

nm

[Guava Jelly]

10. Oh and isnt Nader taking money from swift boat liars for bush

please pour out the koolaide
there are koolaide drinkers on both sides

[LoZoccolo]

13. He'll be busting through the wall any second now!

OH YEAH!

[LimpingLib]

17. Ken Stars old firm was hired to squelch Naders signatures.

Nader said Democrats hired his old firm to fight Naders acess.

(or he said something like that tonight)

I actualy dont care , they are all connected closely.

Just like Bush and the Bin Laden family.W often gets called Shrub on this site but few even know how he got that name. Dubya and a Bin Laden family member founded a company in Spain that was mistakenly called the Spanish word for shrub , when he meat it to be the word for Bush.

The close ties among the elite are just unreal despite the ostensible diometric opposition.

[LoZoccolo]

22. I can't figure out what you're trying to say here. n/t

[LimpingLib]

27. A-R-B-U-S-T-O

Study that.

And I think most partisan hacks on TV could easily switch partys and not give a flip. They are just a bunch of ego , camera, and money hungry maniacs.

[LoZoccolo]

30. Yeah, an oil company, what does that have to do with Nader?

I will give you one more chance to explain before I alert you.

[LimpingLib]

34. Your threats aside (which dont sacre me).....

...... my point is simply this::::: If W. Bush and Bin Ladens brother can co found a company and then the media covers that up and allows a image of the 2 familys to be total enemys ("Christian" Bush vs. "Muslim" Bin Laden) then wht should I be impressed that you are ignorant of the fact that there is an elite in BOTH partys that plays games endlessly.

Nader was too lazy to even get 5,000 signatures in a 10 million person sate (Ohio, he only got 3,000)with MANY progresives so why should the games played by elites somehow be Nader fault?

Im not talking to you any more. All your posts are totally ignorant in every since of the word.

[LoZoccolo]

33. Time's up.

:hi: :nuke:

[LoZoccolo]

11. Hey wait, show me polls.

Not just some guy's opinion, show me actual polls where when they put Nader in, he takes more votes away from Bush*. I have only seen two out of all of them.

[MADem]

14. Link?

Quite frankly, my opinion is that the Nader HURTING Bush theory is absolute bullshit.

Only Bush is hurting Bush. Nader hurts the Democrats, because Nader has a reputation for being strong on consumer and environmental issues. Note I said 'a reputation' -- the little prick has not done shit for anyone in years, all he's done is line his pocket and sing about himself in the last decade.

The GOP will not vote for Nader as an alternative. The Republicans who are not pleased with Bush will vote Conservative Party or Libertarian as a protest, if those names are on the ballot, or they will vote for Kerry, or they will stay home. They will not vote Nader. Fuggedaboutit.

[jbm]

15. I totally agree with this poster..

I am surrounded by repubs and the vast majority would support Bush even if he was a child rapist and serial killer, but there are a small but noticeable percentage who don't like him, but won't vote for Kerry. I tell em, "vote Nader" and their eyes light up and their dilemma is solved! If you think the average voter out there has the slightest clue about what any of the candidates stand for..you live in a different place than I live! I'm still running into people who say, "Now Bush is the democrat?" Nader will get the votes of people who can't stand Bush or Kerry, and I think you're going to find more repubs on that list than dems. They're not going to worry that he's far left cause they're gonna think he's an old white guy and must think like them.

[Robeson]

31. I know of two...

Arch-conservative Republicans who are going to vote for Nader - or so they say. They are fiscal conservatives, not social conservatives, and refuse to vote for Bush because of the debt. Also, they're total anti-government conservatives, so stuff like the Patriot Act scares the hell out of them, just as it does with many on our side. And of course, they just can't bring themselves to vote for a "Liberal" like Kerry - they would chop off their own hand before that did that. And as you said, they do see Nader as somewhat of a protest vote for themselves. Knowing they will not vote for Kerry, I've encouraged them to vote go with what their "heart" tells them, and vote for Nader. Hey, thats two votes subtracted from Bush's column. That was two votes Bush had in 2000.

Its not out of the realm of possibility that Bush is going to lose a lot fiscal conservative voters. And they will find it very hard to vote for a "Massachusetts Liberal". Read the Editors of the Tampa Tribune's non-endorsement of Bush. If you were a fiscal conservative, it is a blistering indictment of his policies. Only one other time since 1952, has the conservative Tampa Tribune NOT endorsed a Republican. Basically its like a vote of no confidence.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. How Do I Make My Point Without Getting My Post Pulled

One could say that a person who says Nader hurts Bush more than Kerry is talking out of their ass and point to polls with Nader and sans Nader-

www.realclearpolitics.com


I might point out that that person could have made his point differently....

[LimpingLib]

21. Take it up with Roger Simon

Im done arguing.

Watch the Lou Dobbs repeat.

Simon , who to me seems like Kerry supporter , begged many to stop opposing Nader.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

24. Numbers Don't Lie

How do I Know that Simon fella isn't a GOP moll or fifth columnist...

[LoZoccolo]

28. No, take it up with YOU who chose to PERPETUATE this LAME MYTH.

Now you duck out after bringing this bullshit up.

Im done arguing.

Do us a favor and don't come back until after the election.

[LoZoccolo]

19. Progressive movement?

Nader is not progressive. His ideas are so tenuous that his supporters seem to feel that they cannot be spread far enough to gain consensus on them. Either that or it doesn't matter to him to gain consensus. Why else would he not really be trying to get it?

[scavok]

23. Most Nader supporters would not vote for Kerry anyway

Nader gets the bulk of his support from people who hate Bush and Kerry equally and hate the entire two party system. Taking him off of the ballot does not mean those votes automatically go to Kerry. It is more likely that these people would just stay home or vote for another third-party candidate.

However, if the Republicans want to waste their time and money supporting Nader, that's fine with me. That's time and money not spent supporting Bush.

[MADem]

29. Disgree.

I have a Green relative who distrusts the two party system, but is crossing over to Kerry this time because IT IS THAT IMPORTANT.

[meganmonkey]

39. Myself, b-friend, sister & dad all voted Nader

in 2000 (in michigan, btw). We are all voting Kerry this year. Some of us (me & my boyfriend) are among those who completely distrust the 2 party system. If we were voting on pure principle, we would not be voting for Kerry. But we know how important that is this year. Sister & Dad aren't as hard-core. I honestly had a problem making up my mind on voting for Kerry because of principle, but realized that getting bush out of office is Waaaaay more important than my self-righteousness.
there are lots of us.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

32. That's Not True...

Look at the numbers...

www.realclearpolitics.com


Kerry does better without Nader in the race...

And anecdotally my best friend voted for Nader in 00 and is now voting for Kerry as well as canvassing for Kerry for MoveOn.Org

[scavok]

44. Perhaps I should clarify my thoughts

When I refer to Nader supporters I mean those people who will vote Nader in 2004, not those who voted Nader in 2000 but vote Kerry in 2004.

I myself fall in that latter category.

[mzmolly]

35. I'd need to see the polls that support this hypothesis.

:shrug:

Most polls have shown he has a negative impact on Kerry and not on Bush, but more recently I think he's taking equal numbers from both?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

36. I Posted It Three Times...

www.realclearpolitics.com


Nader hurts Kerry more than Bush....

[LimpingLib]

38. Talking to me huh.

Anyway I refuse to search out polls anymore (sick of them incase you didnt notice) but if you look in states like Ohio , Wisconsin, and other close economic liberal states then you will see what I mean.

National poll averages (Nader gets 1.6% and Bush gains a net 0.4% based on my quick glance at your snapshot poll in the link)with the 3 canidates (not including Libertarian , constitution , and other right wing 3rd partys) compared to a 1on1 can be misleading as many in safe states will support Nader.

The more socialy conservative and economicaly liberal (senergesic effect) a state is , the more a swing battleground it will become and the more clear you will see what Simon means based on his close study.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

40. I trust my eyes...

how do i know that simon fella ain't carrying water for bush?

[LimpingLib]

43. A selective snapshot of a guy 1 foot above the ground....

...while in the middle of a 100 story free fall is quite trustworthy.


Simon is one of those few in the press that is a genuine Kerry leaner IMO.

I always thought he made too much effort in the past to make it sound like Kerry and Bush had huge issue differences.

[intheflow]

37. I'm fairly new to DU, but I saw this one coming waaaaay back

My boyfriend is Gulf War vet/15 year vet/military industrial salesguy. Voted Nader last time, he was so sick of the Republicans. Wants to vote Nader this time b/c he hates Kerry. I knew he couldn't be alone.

[LimpingLib]

42. Military industrial guy?

LOL.

If he wants job security then the Bush/Kerry ticket better get his vote.

lol.


Thats o.k. It makes more sense than the clown above who said that law enforcment thugs planting drugs being o.k. is something Nader agrees with the Bush/Kerry ticket on.

[TexasSissy]

41. Bullsh*t! Let me say that again: Bullsh*t!

[SammyWinstonJack]

45. Rock on!

Justice anyone?

[Moderator]

46. Locking as flame bait. No dropping I-told-you-so turds...

...especially without a link.