The L word: Kerry's real crime.

[Jade Fox]

Aside from the fact that it is being used as a massive distraction from Bush's
lies and wacked behavior, I think the reason people are freaking about
the Mary Cheney thing is that Kerry called her a Lesbian, not a gay woman.
For a lot of straight people, wether they are conciously aware of it or not,
Lesbian is still a derogatory name you hurl at someone as an insult. That would
especially apply to Conservatives. I can hear them thinking, "Cheney's daughter
may be gay, but she's certainly not a Lesbian!! How dare Kerry say that!"

I will now go punish myself in some appropriate way for starting another thread
about this. :(

[DaveinMD]

1. but men

like Lesbians. :-)

[Thrill]

2. Oh well

Who did it offend? What are gay people going to do run and vote for Bush now. Nope.

[DaveinMD]

3. it stepped on our message

and that's the real problem.

[Thrill]

4. only because the media

is making it that way.

[951]

7. Can anyone explain to me why 'heterosexual' or 'bi-sexual'...

Isn't considered as offensive as 'Lesbian' or 'Homosexual' and DaveinMD which message are you referring to?

[TwentyFive]

11. Bigotry?

The repugs LOVE bigotry because they stoke it, and it gets people to the polls. The GOP has been pulling this crap for years! Remember Pat Buchanan in 1992?

[DaveinMD]

26. the message of Bush's lies

that is the message I am talking about. I have no problem with substance of what Kerry said. But today's story should have been about Bush's lie in the debate regarding Osama Bin Laden.

[progressivebydesign]

31. We're referring to the conservatives who can handle the term, gay..

..but nothing beyond that. Lesbian is not a word that is bandied about amongst the right wing, conservative christians. They can say comfortably that "gays" are God's children, but the lesbian word gets stuck in their throat. The word is offensive to bigots, and that's what the point of the republican OUTCRY today. Notice no one minded when Cheney referred numerous times to his "gay" daughter, nor did they mind when Edwards used the term "gay". The repugs KNOW that, stupidly, the word lesbian is too hot to handle for the repressed, conservatives.. THAT'S why they were freaking. It's semantics, but it's important to understand their thinking.

Just as in the 50's people talked of having a baby, with child, but pregnant was too descriptive.. and women were encouraged wear ridiculous maternity clothes to hide it. Same mentality: With child, okay. Pregnant: offensive. I know it's hard to think like narrow minded people, but sometimes you have to understand their fucked up thinking.

[Eric J in MN]

9. The Republicans would have directed their fake outrage at

something else if Kerry hadn't said that.

The problem is cable channels who let phony outrage dominate their coverage.

[MADem]

5. Yep, as Ellen might say

I think you have a point! Isn't there a TV show on one of the cable networks called "The L Word?" Even CABLE doesn't say it.

I guess the idiot-logues will shriek that JK is being 'French' again...how very avant guard!

[XanaDUer]

6. Here is my take on it...

Kerry did something very clever last night-he got Bush to admit stuff that his conservative born-again base did not like to hear from a true Christian gentleman.

I popped over to congress.org, and some guy from Kentucky was fairly disturbed that Bush did not give the "proper" answer about homosexuality. :eyes:

Most moderate voters don't care, and the evangelicals are not going to vote for Kerry , anyway. But they may not be as happy with Bush as they were before.

[Jade Fox]

10. Wow, very interesting...

I want to go back now an re- view that whole sequence.

[demgrrrll]

13. I agree with you. I think that he took a little wind out of the sails of a

wedge issue. A little cognitive dissonance for those bigots who support the ticket. I am not sensing any great traction here. They cannot keep this up very long and keep their base happy, as you noted, Bush did not make the "proper" response. His supporters seem to have a great capacity to compartmentalize. The ticket is against gay marriage which gives tacit approval for their bigotry. In the back of their minds they know that Cheney's daughter is a lesbian. That fact is put in another little compartment which is labeled do not open. Kerry opened the door and pulled back the curtain. THAT is what they are pissed about.

[XanaDUer]

14. "He opened the door and pulled back the curtain"

Perfect analogy.

Bush could not use any stupid Dred Scott/evangelical "code speak" there.

[DefenseLawyer]

15. The fundies

couldn't have liked his mushy Roe v. Wade answer either.

[XanaDUer]

18. I'm sure they didn't

That's what is so great about debating an asshole like Bush. Like the Wizard of Oz, you just have to pull that curtain aside.

I also knew that that great questiong posed towards Bush about, "name your mistakes" and he would not name ONE.

I knew that was not going to go over big with the saner undecided voter.

[yardwork]

20. Kerry definitely did it on purpose, which means he gave it careful thought

Kerry did not misspeak. Edwards mentioned Mary Cheney during his debate as well. There was a reason. This has strategic importance to Kerry-Edwards.

[Pump Man]

24. Liberty Chick is right

The next few weeks is when the war is won. It is a ground war.
Kerry is a big winner in the debate more than anybody can see
He was able  to make Bush take a stand. The religious -right
did not want to hear this. No they are not voting Kerry. They
might just go vote and that it. NO movement is bad for Bush

[Nicholas_J]

29. Exactly

When Bush was asked whetther he thought being gay was a choice or something people were born being, he totally wimped out on the answer from the evangelical point of view which is that
homosexuallity is a choice and that people can decide not to be gay.

When Bush stepped into this one, Kerry reminded Bush's evangelical base that Bush's vice president has a gay daughter AND opposes the beloved constitutional amendment to define marriage to exclude gays. This double whammy has already shown results on sites like Congress.org in which evangelicals from states like Kentucky sharply attakced Bush for not giving the "RIGHT" answer.One letter went as far as to state that BUsh was not a Christian because not good Christian would give such an answer. This letter hinted that Bush's supposed religious beliefs was merely a political ploy to get the support of evangelicals. It was really critical stuff coming from a small sample of Bush's strongest base. If Kerry can convince even a small percentage of evangelicals simply to not vote, in a race this close will hurt Bush in a big way.

[TwentyFive]

8. This is all about the gay hating repugs grasping at straws.....

I watched the debate and when John Kerry brought Mary Cheney up, I thought that was fine because she was already introduced in the VP debate.

Kerry was referring to her because she's become a familar name in the campaign.

[kokomo]

12. Cheneys and the Coors family USE Mary when she can help them out.

Since the Log Cabin Republicans were threatening to pull their support from Bush due to his support for the "marriage amendment", maybe the Cheney's were USING Mary to win back millions of gay voters when they PUBLICLY talked about her sexuality on a national TV hookup following the Republican Convention. When the Cheney's use Mary, it's okay, I guess.

They were no GAY people before Stonewall, only lesbians and queers. My high school drama class put on Cornelia Otis Skinner's play, "Our Hearts Were Young and Gay" back in 1958. Gay meant "happy" until it was coopted to replace the more derogatory terms like "queer" (which itself has become acceptable now due to gays using the term themselves). As late as the 50's, a "fag" was still a cigarette. A stranger would walk up to you and say, "Hey man, gotta fag?":smoke:

[Jade Fox]

16. Do you know the origin of the term "fag"?

I believe it was a name given to gay men who were burned along with
"witches" in Europe. Thus, the association with burning.

And in England, cigs are still fags.

[kokomo]

32. Yes, a faggot is a "burning stick"

When homosexuals were tied to the stake for being witches, the bundles of burning sticks at their feet were called faggots. When the fire then began running up the clothes and legs of the person bound to the stake, setting them afire, there would be cheers from the on-lookers, like "Look, another faggot!"

[Zookeeper]

25. "..the Cheneys were USING Mary to win...."

Although I'm sure they love their daughter, I also thought the timing was just too convenient and a thinly veiled attempt to make nice with the Log Cabin Repubs.

Now, Lynne is all huffy as if Kerry is exploiting their pain or shame, saying, "This is not a good man." Get a job, Lynne.

[Misunderestimator]

17. Huh? When did "lesbian" become more offensive to anyone than "gay?"

[progressivebydesign]

27. I don't think you're getting the point.

I posted this on a few other threads, also.

The right wing can handle the term, "GAY". Seriously. They can say rather comfortably, "I know a gay man from work". "My private trainer is a gay woman". It's the LESBIAN thing that they can't say comfortably.. it's true. To many, many conservatives using the word lesbian is not done.. it's too sexual for them.

While you could see the likes of Barbara Bush using the word gay, in her mind, lesbian is to graphic.

Hell, WE don't find the term lesbian to be offensive.. not in the least. We're talking from the right wing, conservative christian, point of view... and they can't handle the word, lesbian. It's too sexualized in their dirty little minds.

[Ravy]

19. I am sure Kerry mentioned it only because...

... he wanted to know if * knew. After all, * doesn't read the papers.

[yardwork]

21. I hadn't thought of that. Maybe * didn't know.

I would check to see if * looked stunned, but why bother. * always looks stunned.

[lakemonster11]

35. Speaking of Bush's expressions

Did you see the look on Bush's face when Kerry said that he'd been an altar boy? He perked up and looked right at him and then started writing something while he suppressed a smirk.

Of course "Lesbian" is sexual to Bush---he's got a dirty mind.

[Pump Man]

22. L word I thought you all were talking about Liberals

I thought President Kerry did a wonderful job on this issue.
He made it clear his thoughts on the issue. So will put!
Lesbian word is okay. There was a time when gay meant happy.
that was the 50s and 6os There was a song gay was use in the
song: The glamour of the gay night life has lear me to where
wine and liquor flow.

[TheWebHead]

23. uhh, so GLAAD is derogatory?

Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation...

[progressivebydesign]

28. Why isn't anyone getting it? We're not saying it's offensive...

BUT the right wing considers it offensive.. and hard to say. Gay, to them, is generic and safe. Lesbian, in their dirty little minds, is sexual.. Though WE all know that's bullshit, you have to think like they do. The word lesbian freaked them out last night.. and perhaps that's why Kerry used it, cuz he knows what fucked up prudes they are, with their phony "tolerance" of gays. (when in fact, there is NOTHING that has to be tolerated!!).

[Ivote]

30. It's called HARDBALL, no not Tweety

I saw frontline tonight and isnt that how the bush campaign smeared Ann Richards in Texas in the 1994 for the governors race?
The only difference is that Kerry brought it out with dignity.
very classy of him.

[kokomo]

33. Rove sank Ann Richards by whisper campaign using the word lesbian!

"That’s the card the Bush campaign played when a highly regarded Republican whom Karl Rove had helped elect to the state Senate spoke out about the sexual orientation of some women close to Governor Richards (she had appointed 2 lesbians to state positions).

"It’s simply not part of their culture, and frankly not part of mine," the senator said of his East Texas constituents, "that is something we encourage, reward, or acknowledge as an acceptable situation." ... the suggestion that the governor had gay associates was enough to create real doubts among voters.

A whispering campaign that raised questions about Richards’ sexual orientation (really a heterosexual grandmother) closed the deal."

http://www.laweekly.com/ink/printme.php?eid=56843

[ciaobox]

34. Republican males don't like the word Lesbian

it reminds them of their secret stash of porn DVDs they watch when their frigid wives are asleep. It's DIRTY!