Dean's Sealed files - Justice for Woody Could this be the reason?

[xultar]

The Robert Woodward Shooting
Evidence of a Conspiracy to Obstruct Justice in Vermont

The link below will take you to a report that Details Cover-Up of Robert Woodard's Shooting at a Vermont Church.

http://www.justiceforwoody.org/

The story, briefly, a Robert Woodard was running from the police. He ran into a church to seek refuge. When police arrived one started shooting right away. After Woody fell he was then shot again 4 times. After that he was denied medical treatment. Dean's friend and hand picked VT Attorney General conducted an investigation and found no wrong doing. (shooting a man while he is down and denying medical treatment isn't wrong in VT.)

Govenor Dean was asked to conduct a special investigation but declined? HE was SATISFIED with the ATTY General's (His friends) the findings.

more...

Dean's hand picked Vermont Attorney General William Sorrell's investigation...

---snip--"exonorated the officers while avoiding collecting, analyzing, or pursuing evidence of police wrongdoing.
Facing an outcry from Vermont citizens and legislators, Dean refused to open an independent investigation into the evidence that he possessed."

---snip--"Although Governor Dean possessed evidence that Brattleboro police shot a man" (while he was down) "on the floor of a church and then denied him first aid, he said that he was "comfortable with" the investigation led by his longtime political ally and appointee Vermont Attorney General William Sorrell.

OK Let's discuss
My question is...Is this what Dean is hiding in his records? We are all rightfully concerned about what is going on in the School of Americas, but what about the brutality here in America? Who is concerned about concern for American people being shot by the police while they are laying down on the floor?

Govenor Howard Dean is now a Democratic candidate for President. However, while Govenor, he had the ability to launch a special investigation into the matter but did not. WHY?

Even after the evidence speaks to the facts which are that Woody was shot while laying down on the church floor. Furthermore, Govenor Howard Dean has "acknowledged possessing evidence that Woodward was fired upon as he lay on the floor of the church, and that he was denied necessary and available medical care."

Full Report

http://www.justiceforwoody.org/cases/obstruction/obstruction_v1.html

[Walt Starr]

1. Um, do you think your source might have just a bit of bias?

After all, it's an advocate site for the guyl who was running from the police.

[bicentennial_baby]

3. I take it

you know little about this case. I happen to live about 20 minutes from where Mr. Woodward was shot, and this issue is very much alive and kicking in Southern VT. In fact, I was in Brattleboro last week, and saw several Justice For Woody fliers around town, including on the door of the most progressive bookstore in town.

[Walt Starr]

4. Sorry, but running from the cops, assaulting cops, or similar activity

is a recipe for a self imposed death sentence.

It's stupidity with a capital S.

The guy ran from cops which gives the cops the legal right to shoot you D-E-A-D.

I don't make up the rules. I just have to live under them like everybody else. Running from the cops is suicidal.

[Don Claybrook]

8. Hang on, Walt

Again, I haven't yet read the linked story. It may be stretched, or inaccurate, or whatever else. But in the most generic sense, running from the police does not and should not give them the right to kill you. That's police brutality, and when it happens in big enough numbers it's a police state. Running from the police is stupid, but it's not a crime that should carry the death penalty. I've got to hang on to my progressive values...I'll have them long after Dean has won or lost.

As to this specific case, it sounds like I need to go and do some reading.

Thanks.

[xultar]

12. Thanks for at least doing some reading before blasting 1 more link

http://www.allthingspass.com/docs/TheShootingofRobertWoodward.htm

[Walt Starr]

20. Please, before providing these sorts of links, give me a credible

news source on the event. This is yet another biased account of the event.

I want a credible source, not somebody's advocate site.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

34. Walt. The Justice for Woody site archived links from real newspapers

It's a sad story. The man was mentally disrurbed and the cops simply walked in, ordered him to drop his knife, and when he didn't they shot him inside of 60 seconds of arriving at the church.

http://www.justiceforwoody.org/story/shooting.html

The problem is Dean never showed any interest in an outside investigation. Despite protests from the many eyewitnesses who say the police acted without due regard for the man's rights, Dean left it all to his buddy AG Sorrell to find no fault with the cops.
Dean did justice a disservice in this case.

http://www.justiceforwoody.org/media/articles/index01.html

http://www.justiceforwoody.org/media/articles/index02.html

http://www.justiceforwoody.org/media/articles/index03.html

[Walt Starr]

21. That's wrong. Evading the cops is illegal

He was a criminal to do only that.

You cannot legally run from the cops.

[Don Claybrook]

33. He didn't run....I just read up on this

Please see post #32. He didn't run from them.

Back to the generic 'running from the cops' issue: I don't dispute that it's a crime, I just said that it shouldn't carry the death penalty.

Thanks.

[sangh0]

9. Tell that to

Amadou Diallo

[dsc]

13. Mr. Daiblo did not run

crack open a news paper.

[Walt Starr]

22. IIRC, Amadou Diallo was not evading the cops

He was surrendering when he was brutally murdered by the police.

You're comparing apples to oranges.

[Padraig18]

2. Incredible stretch!

The freakin' nutcase was in a church full of people, charged a cop while holding a knife and got his ass shot. End of story.

[markus]

10. Do you have a link to something other than the advocacy site?

I found find it interesting before Hate Radio starts looking for follow-ups to last night's debate.

I can't wait to hear our local Rush clone start taking up for poor, minority victims of police brutality.

[xultar]

14. Woody, the guy who got shot is a white dude...n/t

[xultar]

18. ACLU Archives link

http://archive.aclu.org/news/2001/w120501a.html

[Walt Starr]

23. Thanks for the link

and quoting from the link you provided:

"Gently asked to take a seat or leave, Woodward pulled a knife. Police were called. After making what authorities called threatening moves with the blade, he was gunned down at the altar and died at a hospital."

There's the justification. This was not a case of police brutality. They operated within the law.

[xultar]

16. The church folk talked to him and he apologied, yeah, HE IS CRAZED!

Woodward had become distressed as parishioners initially left the church. Some of the eighteen people who stayed had convinced Woodward to put away the four-inch knife he had drawn and pointed at his eye to gain the attention of those leaving – parishioners incapable of taking Woodward’s pleas for sanctuary seriously – and with a cell phone they were making calls to Woodward’s friends in an effort to confirm his story. Told that his behavior had frightened people, Woodward said, “I’m sorry.”


http://www.allthingspass.com/docs/TheShootingofRobertWoodward.htm


Spotting the police, one eyewitness told them to “get back.” Police officers from the back of the church shouted at Woodward. With no attempt to negotiate or disable Woodward with pepper spray, and perhaps less than a minute later, at about 10:13 a.m., two veteran Brattleboro police officers -- trained in hostage negotiation and the use of less-than-lethal force -- pumped seven .40 caliber bullets into Robert Woodward.

The police and witness’ accounts differ starkly, but evidence suggests that Woodward was shot four or five times after he was down. In a re-enactment of the shooting, witness Thomas Thompson was adamant that Woodward was shot from above as he lay curled in the fetal position on the floor. Vermont State's Attorney Dan Davis reported to the Woodward family on Dec. 7, 2001, that the preliminary official autopsy results showed that one bullet entered Woodward's back.

[Don Claybrook]

5. IF this is as it appears in this post

That's a big if--I haven't even clicked the link, which is by a supporter of this guy Woody. Anyway, if everything you've printed here turns out to be true and in the proper perspective, then Howard Dean was wrong. Police brutality was wrong. However, I don't see this as any sort of reason to keep from opening records, so I don't think that this case would be the reason.

Attorneys General are usually the folks tasked with this sort of investigation. They're also usually friendly with the governor who appointed them. The conflict of interest would've occurred had the AG been friends with one of the cops involved, or (less likely) a friend of Woody.

I agree with you about the School of the Americas. It exports terrorism. It teaches terrorism. It needs to be closed, and there's no one who can rightfully defend it. Yes, that means whoever has supported it staying open is dead wrong. That goes for Wes Clark, and it goes for Bill Clinton, Max Cleland, and whoever else. Yeah, I wish Dean had said he would close the place down, not check with the CIA. This incident in Vermont does not at all compare in scale to the brutality brought about by the School of the Americas. If you find a trend in Vermont, we're talking about a different story. But I don't think it's there.

[NV1962]

7. 100% agreed - n/t

[Hep]

6. Another hit and run?

Someone get the license number!

[Padraig18]

11. Smear and run, don't you mean?

Probably Googling some more shit to sling...

[xultar]

28. GA WEJ 1763 - Nope I'm watchin I wanna see you deny it without reading

[unfrigginreal]

15. Aren't you supposed to be handing out fines or something?

:eyes:

[xultar]

26. I tried being nice. All saw in return were constant attacks on Clark

Not positive posts on Dean.

SO I'M THROUGH WITH THAT BULL$HIT.

I'm posting what's out there. It's not a smear because this guy did get shot. Willam Sorrell is a friend of Dean. Dean handpicked him his friend of 20+ years to the ATTY General post.

Dean didn't authorize a special investigation of his friends report. The autopsy proved that the last 4 shots were fired while the man was down.

Plus my brother was a cop. Even in a hostage situation it would be rare that you fire 7 bullets in a room with innocent civilians.

ALL THE MAN HAD WAS A POCKET KNIFE!!!

He had been in the church with the people for 5 mins prior to the arrival to the police and he was asking for help. he didn't hake any of the church people hostage.

Dean supporters wanna talk about Clark and says he condones torture and the killing of innocent civilians. Well let's talk about Dean and what he condones as the Chief Executive Officer of HIS state.

[Freddie Stubbs]

17. The man charged into a church with a weapon

Looks like Woody got the justice he deserved.

[xultar]

27. You'f got MLK as an avatar and you talk like that!!!

REad the story
The guy had been in the church for 5 mins asking them to help him first. The people in the church got him to calm down.
He was motioning to kill himself (autopsy report sites cut above the eye) he was afraid of the police!!!

The knife he had was a POCKETKNIFE...and 7 shots were pumped into him in a church full of people! 4 of the shots while he was on the floor.

What police administration teaches firing in a room full of people. My brother is a cop and it is rare RARE that a police officer would shoot in a room full of people to get one suspect.

2 of the cops were trained hostage negotiators!!! You mean they couldn't talk him into calming down and the church people did!

[Freddie Stubbs]

38. "I am a pacifist, but aggresive action was required."

That is a qoute from an eyewitness in the church.

http://www.atg.state.vt.us/upload/1063823781_Woodward_report_final.pdf

[xultar]

19. All I ask is that you do your own research...evidence shows

that he wasn't pointing the knife @ the cops he had taken the knife and held it above his eye...he told the church people the cops were gonna kill him. In the coroner lists a cut above the eye as a wound.
He was holding a pocket knife.

The coroner also acknowledges that he was shot while he was down.

[Walt Starr]

24. According to the AP article on the ACLU site

This was a 100% justified shooting by the police.

[Clark Can WIN]

36. Our new progressive position is......................

shoot the crazy people?

I doubt if this is the smoking gun though, no pun intended. I'm betting there's more there than this.

[Freddie Stubbs]

39. Typical right-wing ACLU position

;)

[Don Claybrook]

37. He was also shot in the back n/t

[xultar]

25. The Burlington Free Press

How can anyone justify pumping seven bullets into Robert Woodward, 37, of Bellows Falls as frightened parishioners looked on?

All he had was a pocket knife, and all he was doing was begging the church to give him "asylum" from government agents, including the police, who he ominously said were trying to kill him.

The claim by Brattleboro's acting police chief that the two officers who fired their guns correctly employed department procedures won't cut it.

"At least two of the shots came as he was lying on his side," said one eyewitness, J.B.C. "Tom" Thomas of Marlboro.

[bain_sidhe]

31. Looks like he had some justification for that fear

All he had was a pocket knife, and all he was doing was begging the church to give him "asylum" from government agents, including the police, who he ominously said were trying to kill him.

It's not paranoia if it's true, is it?

[Cheswick2.0]

29. Hey, I've heard that before

B-)

[xultar]

30. Is Dean's current Personal Attorney William Sorrell? anyone know n/t

[Don Claybrook]

32. mmmkay, this Dean supporter has just read a lot of documents

And I have something to say that will be unpopular: Dean should've appointed a special prosecutor. I think he screwed up when he didn't. I think that is forgivable, by the way, not the biggest deal in the world, but still wrong.

The attorney general is more culpable. It sounds for all the world like his investigation was a whitewash.

I think that 2 police officers killed Woody in cold blood from 8 feet away while he had a 4-inch knife out. He was threatening himself. He wasn't threatening anyone else. He was not holding anyone hostage. There was no one in his immediate vicinity while he was holding the knife on himself. He stated that if the police came, they would kill him.

He was right. They killed him without uttering a word. 7 shots.

Woody did not run from the police. He stayed in his position at the front of the church.

I went to the advocacy site, but I didn't read any of their own material. Instead, I went to their media section and read about 15 or 18 articles from area newspapers that they have linked to (or cached).

I'd encourage anyone else who is interested in trying to determine the real facts in this case to do the same.

I think Dean got this one wrong, but I don't see any sort of criminal behavior on his part. At the local level, I think 2 cops got away with executing a progressive, liberal guy.

Thanks.

[xultar]

40. Thanks for being honest, HD is not a criminal

in this matter. He did put his friend above justice and that is wrong.
It just goes to show character and possibe motive for sealing files.
That's it. No smear just questions that require answers so voters can make the best choice for America.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KaraokeKarlton]

41. Woody held the people in the church (including children) hostage

Traumatized people, brandished a weapon and instead of dropping the weapon as instructed, he started to go after one of the officers with a knife. In light of the situation, the police officers responded in the way they are trained to respond...to protect themselves. Yes, it's sad the guy is dead, but he tried to stab a police officer and had held church members hostage, terrified children and refused to cooperate. Whaddya gonna do?

And this "sanctuary" nonsense is just that...nonsense. When you seek "sanctuary" you generally don't hold the congregation hostage.

:shrug:

[Don Claybrook]

43. He wasn't holding hostages

And the police didn't say a word before they shot him, according to the eyewitnesses in the church.

I can still be a Dean supporter but staunchly against police brutality.

[markus]

42. Sorry, but you are threatening a bunch of people with a knife

so the police take their first clear shot at you.

I am a terrible opponent of true police brutality, but the fact this is getting dredged up here say more about the people posting it then it does about Dean, the police officers, invovled, etc.