Whats the truth/fiction behind "Stolen Honor"

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

like it or not we need to be prepared to address this documentary as it will be shown on TV. Theres alot of focus on Sinclair, but I think we need to be prepared to address the issues raised in the actual documentary.

So, whats the story behind it. What is it about? Something to do with Kerrys antiwar activity and how it related to POWs?

Does anybody have a synopsis and has there been any debunking done?

[mzmolly]

1. There's information at the website. It's basically a long swift boat ad

www.stolenhonor.com

:hi:

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

6. Did he really say this?

I dont have a fast connection, so just read some of the stuff...

The war, he said, was a criminal endeavor driven by a “policy of atrocities.” The 2.5 million men who served in Vietnam were akin to “Genghis Khan’s barbaric hordes,” thugs and psychopathic war criminals who wantonly plundered the Vietnam countryside, murdering, raping and bombing hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians – old men, women and children -- each and every day.

Lt. Kerry’s widely televised statements were dramatic and persuasive, made all the more credible by the fact he had been there, said he had witnessed many of these same atrocities.

Thats pretty harsh criticsim.....did he really say he witnessed atrocities...can he say what he saw and who did them, or what unit did them?

And did the commies use Kerrys testimony as an excuse to torture our POWS?

These are the questions I have.

[LittleClarkie]

14. Here is a link to the transcript

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/082204F.shtml

As for whether or not it was used against POW's, you'll have to find me a POW not associated with the Swift Vets before I can answer that. McCain doesn't remember hearing about Kerry until after he got back.

And that's another answer. McCain is a POW, and one of Kerry's friends. What does that say about McCain. They always have to make McCain some kind of Communist dupe in order to discredit his friendship with Kerry and his role in the POW investigation.

That POW/MIA investigation feeds into these people's hatred of Kerry too. They think he sold their relatives out. The ugliest picture I've seen shows a painting of Kerry with his hand on the Wall and blood on it.

What they don't understand is that the naturalization of relations with Vietnam was needed to get the accountability for their relatives. One was not going to happen without the other. And Kerry was the man who helped accomplish that.

I don't doubt the pain of these people, but I do think it is being exploited for political gain by people like the Swift Vets. That's as bad as exploiting 9/11 for political gain.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

20. This is a Congressional hearing, not Winter Soldier.

The documenatary is talking about, i think, Winter Soldier..what was said at that Detroit event.

Did Kerry speak at it and what did he say?

In the testimony you linked, Kerry is talking about what others said at Winter Soldier, not what he himself did while in Vietnam (unless I missed it).

[LittleClarkie]

25. No, Kerry did not speak at Winter Soldier

He info gathered. I will check for Winter Soldier link.

[LittleClarkie]

26. Here you go

Winter Soldier Investigation link:

http://lists.village.virginia.edu/sixties/HTML_docs/Resources/Primary/Winter_Soldier/WS_entry.html

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

27. Thanks, I appreciate that...its coming clear.

This is guilt by association.

This almost reminds me of the Dolchstosstheorie during the Weimar Republic.

Heck,way to much of the USA now reminds me of the Weimar Republic.

[LittleClarkie]

31. This part of the "Stolen Honor" background commentary confuses me

"Lt. Kerry’s widely televised statements were dramatic and persuasive, made all the more credible by the fact he had been there, said he had witnessed many of these same atrocities. His testimony catapulted him to international prominence and the ranks of leadership in the American anti-war movement, launching his once failing political career. It also permanently branded in the American psyche the image of Vietnam veterans as murderous “baby killers” and “drugged out losers,” a perception that persists today, one deeply embedded in our history."

But he never said that they were baby killers or drugged out losers. He talked about how the government had turned it's back on the returning veterans. He was speaking for them, not against.

And it did not launch his political career. His "once failing political career" was still failing after the testimony.

He has succeeded in spite of the testimony, not because of it. He lost the election right after this testimony, and became a lawyer for several years before he was able to get back into politics. He said once that if it was a benefit, then he wouldn't have had to wait until 1985 before heading to Washington, that it would have been so much easier to run as a hero, instead of a protester.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

33. Good stuff...these links are invaluable. Another question...

...the actual Winter Soldier witnessess....what happened to them, were their statements followed up on?

[LittleClarkie]

36. I don't know, but the Vietnam Veterans Against the War still exists

Their website is at www.vvaw.org.

The Milwaukee VVAW organizer, John Lindquist, wrote this lovely piece about his association with Kerry. I've met him and worked with him at Kerry HQ in Milwaukee. He was inspired to help with the Veterans for Kerry effort.

http://www.vvaw.org/veteran/article/?id=425

And I think it's beautiful that the first group begat a group for this war, directly inspired by Kerry and the VVAW: www.ivaw.net

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

29. Well, heck there was no Navy testiomny..this is all BS.

Kerry was involved in the group, and these guys spoke on what they saw.

[henslee]

23. Thats the text you hear on the latest swift boat ads.

[Vincardog]

2. It is the same Swift vote liars and Widows BS

[Warren DeMontague]

3. I suspect the "idea" is

that by protesting the war Kerry and co. made it longer. Right, like we were 'that close' to "winning", if it wasn't for those damn anti-war activists!

The person responsible for US Casualties in Vietnam from 1968-1973 is one guy: Richard M. Nixon. (with some help from Henry K.)... He deliberately sabatoged the Paris Peace Accords in 68 to torpedo the Dems' chances in November.. then in 73 we accepted the exact same accords. Half the names on the wall were people killed during that period. You want to attack a record, attack that one--- fuckheads.

[LittleClarkie]

16. Some blame Kerry for how we pulled out of Vietnam so fast

Too fast to account for everyone who was MIA and for all the POW's.

No, that would be Rumsfeld and Cheney. I don't want another Saigon-style retreat in Iraq with these two anywhere near the controls.

[Warren DeMontague]

38. I agree that to blame Kerry is ludicrous

But I'm not sure that 68-73 constitutes "fast". And I'd suspect it became significantly harder to deal straightforwardly with the North Vietnamese on things like POWs once we had given them that little "Christmas present" in 1972.

My bottom line? The war was wrong, and Kerry was right -- twice. Right to volunteer to fight for his country, and then right to protest to end the war once he saw what an utter sham it was.

[geek tragedy]

4. Its contents should be ignored.

This crap has lost its currency, even with undecideds and persuadables.

Every breath wasted on rebutting this crap would be better spent blasting this administration's record.

We should go after Sinclair, but the actual content of this film should not become part of the public discourse.

[Unstuck In Time]

7. I think you're right.

It's the same old DISCREDITED smears.

'Nuff said.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

8. man o man...

...if wishes where horses.

[baltodemvet]

5. Well, here's part of the story

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2004_10_10.php#003639

While you're there you might want to read more--good stuff (always.)

[Unstuck In Time]

11. Holy crap! Yet ANOTHER moonie connection?

What is it with republicans and the Moonies?

"... the major claim-to-fame of the movie's producer, Carlton Sherwood, is Inquisition, his 1991 expose on the US government's alleged 'persecution' of the Reverend Sun Myung Moon.

Sherwood's report was so 'independent' that he let Moon's representatives pre-screen it and make changes to the text."

[MatrixEscape]

13. Moon

Do the Freepers know that Unification Church is a MAJOR cult? The kind of cult that pulls their kids in, brainwashes them, and puts them on corners selling flowers? I went to one of their "meetings" when I was younger -- pure strong-arm persuasion.

Do they realize that Moon has his fingers and mega-money in a scores of Right-wing groups and activities? That his money saved Falwell's University?

Do they KNOW that he proclaims himself as better than Jesus and Messiah to the World? He is a megalomaniac and wants to take over the World if we would only let him. He has tons of nice sounding "front" organizations, as well.

[Pax Argent]

24. Yes, but did they require loyalty oaths? /eom

[baltodemvet]

21. What is it with republicans and the Moonies?

Money

[MatrixEscape]

9. Sad to say ...

The atrocities in Iraq will be made public one day. They are just as horrible and under horrible conditions, with low morale, they do happen.

[knowbody0]

10. the war ended because of brave people like kerry

no matter what these 250 vets have to say, the pentagon 1975 investigation of kerry and others' claims of war crimes and atrocities. those vets who deny these things do so because admitting these truths are horribly painful. talk to anyone who was there. killing civilians and burning villiages, napalm is biological warfare,tales of rape and torture....no one came home unscathed.

[tsuki]

12. The Forgotten

No one knows. I remember what it was like. I first heard of Viet-Nam in 1960 when my father was sent there from Misawa, Japan. In 1970, I faced the realization that my brother might be sent to the longest, most costly war the US had ever engaged in. We were totally anti-war. We had seen the cost. And now we are being lectured by Prez "Lost in ALA" and VP "King of the Deferement?"

[glitch]

15. Welcome to DU tsuki - we need your voice. nt

[newyawker99]

30. Hi tsuki!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[baltodemvet]

35. I was a member of Veterans against the War in Vietnam

Not to be confused with Vietnam Veterans Against the War (I did not go to 'Nam) I supported the Wonter Soldier project. It took a lot of courage for Kerry and others to stand up and speak out.

It wasn't a betrayal--it was an act of true loyalty to the men whose country had sent them off to an unspeakable moral hell.

[NightOwwl]

17. We are prepared alright.

Prepared to force Sinclair Broadcasting Group to it's knees. We've already mobilized a massive response, websites are up, their stock is going down.

This was a very stupid move on their part.

[MatrixEscape]

18. I expect ...

Everyone will be calling their Mutual Fund Managers in the AM and advising them to dump it before it's worthless?

Looks like a great morning for selling short, ey?

[flordehinojos]

19. I AM PROUD OF KERRY'S ANTIWAR STANCE BACK THEN. I WISH HE WOULD HAVE IT

NOW. and for the record, Jane Fonda should never have apologized for her antiwar stance either. Should any of the millions of people who went out marching for peace and against the bush iraq war for oil apologize, or regret that they marched for peace. No. Absolutely not.

[bacchant]

22. Word. n/t

[saccheradi]

28. right on!

[w4rma]

32. It's a propaganda piece produced by a follower of Rev. Moon.

At least he's probably a follower of Rev. Moon. He produced another movie defending Rev. Moon from a bunch of crimes and he wrote or writes for the Moonie Times (Washington Times).

[vetwife]

34. My complaint to FEC and FCC

Dear Officials,
As the wife of a 100 percent disabled combat VN vet, and CEO of a Veterans organization, do you realize what damage can be done to the mental health and emotional health of veterans suffering from PTSD if Stolen Valor airs? Many vets do not have someone at home to screen what they watch (per their psychiatrists advice).

Do you realize that over 110,000 VN vets have died by their own hand since the war was over and have been so traumatized and you all have allowed those ads to go on channel after channel without a disclaimer. Do you realized people can die from this sort of thing? Ask any mental health professional who deals with combat vets who have nightmares and flashbacks. The families of these emotionally distraught veterans have even considered suing.

This is your job to see that the health of the people..ALL the people, not just the republicans are protected from this type of exposure to relived trauma. It really does not matter if you are a democrat or republican or no party affiliation, what matters is people's mental and emotional health. The tobacco companies had to pull ads for less. This affects the entire veterans families and who knows what kind of hospitalizations or deaths this could bring about.

This is not a democratic issue, nor republican. This is a moral and health plus American issue.

[F.Gordon]

37. Too lazy.....so I'll cut and paste......

(from my previous thread)

I was going to spend the $5 and watch the whole thing, but after watching a few clips I decided not to.

It's just one big boring badly produced infomercial attacking Kerry. It apparently will be shown without "other" commercials. I say let em'.....

The general bullshit of this attack infomercial?...

In mere moments, Kerry had willingly given the Vietnamese Communists what they had spent years of torture and blood-letting to drag out of their American hostages, an unqualified “confession” they were all war criminals.

What these shit on the vets won't say in their hour long infomercial is how it wasn't Kerry that took part in the War Crimes hearings....

http://members.aol.com/warlibrary/vwch1.htm

And the shit on the vets never seem to include this part of Kerry's testimony...

Mr. Kerry: My feeling, Senator, is undoubtedly this Congress, and I don't mean to sound pessimistic, but I do not believe that this Congress will, in fact, end the war as we would like to, which is immediately and unilaterally and, therefore, if I were to speak I would say we would set a date and the date obviously would be the earliest possible date. But I would like to say, in answering that, that I do not believe it is necessary to stall any longer. I have been to Paris. I have talked with both delegations at the peace talks, that is to say the Democratic Republic of Vietnam and the Provisional Revolutionary Government and of all eight of Madam Binh's points it has been stated time and time again, and was stated by Senator Vance Hartke when he returned from Paris, and it has been stated by many other officials of this Government, if the United States were to set a date for withdrawal the prisoners of war would be returned.

I think this negates very clearly the argument of the President that we have to maintain a presence in Vietnam, to use as a negotiating block for the return of those prisoners. The setting of a date will accomplish that.

You see, Kerry strongly believed that his actions/testimony would help get the POW's released. The same fucked up pow/vets that are being used to attack Kerry...

http://www.stolenhonor.com/documentary/meet-pows.asp