Lead Headed Coincidence Theorists

[endarkenment]

You know what? I am damn tired of being told that I should shut up with all my crazy ass conspiracy theories about how a cabal of neocons got together in the 90's to plot the takeover of the US government in order to initiate the military conquest of the planet to establish a permanent american hegemony based on military force. I am told that I should shut up primarily because, while the course of events since 1998 would indeed appear to support just such a theory, I cannot actually prove all the details of this 'tin foil hat conspiracy'. The conspiracy is manifest. The conspirators did not even bother to hide their plan or their intentions.

Oh yes, I cannot prove that they had anything to do with the enabling Reichstags fire of our times: the attack of 9-11, it was just a remarkable coincidence that this event occurred exactly on schedule and was just what their public plans required as a catalyst. No I cannot prove that this was not a coincidence.

Oh yes, I cannot prove that they stole the 2000, 2002, and 2004 elections, and that the theft of the 2000 election was critical to the timetable for the catalytic event that would allow them to actuate their war plans. No I cannot prove that this was not a coincidence.

Like RFKjr I cannot categorically prove that the election of 2004 was stolen in Ohio, and indeed it may all be coincidence that the 2000 election fraud was used to justify HAVA which mandates the use of unverifiable electronic voting systems manufactured solely by corporations that have well documented connections to the Republican Party. All of this may just be coincidence.

I cannot prove that the events of this last month, the disinformation fed into the blogosphere to discredit it and to cause widespread distrust, the timing of the execution of zarqawi that just happened to be concurrent with a bug Rovian PR push to reframe the 06 elections, are anything other than coincidence.

I accept that I am in fact a tin foil hat conspiracy theorist.

Now I would like equal treatment for the lead headed coincidence theorists. How many coincidences must pile up before the complication of explaining all as just random congruence of unconnected events becomes ludicrous? When does occam's razor apply here?

[orwell]

1. And yet...

...the official story of the 9/11 attacks asks us to believe in a "conspiracy theory". No disconnect here - just the usual mental jiu jitsu we are subjected to daily.

Freedom is slavery.
War is peace.
Ignorance is strength.

I hear ya endarkenment. By the time the proles wake up to their fate, they will be loading the bodies onto the railroad cars for reprocessing.

Brave New World...same old shit.

[ocean girl]

2. Hi, my name is ocean girl and I, too, accept the fact that I am a tin foil

hat conspiracy theorist.

How on earth can anyone not be?

[MervinFerd]

3. Rationality?

[ima_sinnic]

5. yeah, "coincidences" are more "rational" than conspiracies

:eyes:

[endarkenment]

15. How many convenient coincidences does it take? nt

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

7. Don't say that.

That's a dirty word around here on some days.

[ocean girl]

8. No, denial

[nashville_brook]

12. "rationality" was a luxury of a time when we weren't LIED to constantly

i was reading some robert anton wilson essay a while back. something he wrote in the 70s that was a critique of a post-truth poltical millieu. i was struck by the expectation of truth in the days of watergate and vietman. people actually EXPECTED truth from their leaders.

i don't think we demand that anymore. we are fed lies and have been beaten down to the point that we blame ourselves for not having more control of the media or the administration. we are left with a sense of loss and hopelessness. maybe one day, we argue, we'll win back the house/senate/whitehouse/supremecourt and THEN we will get answers. maybe.

until then -- rationality has left the building.

[nashville_brook]

19. rational -- like mo atta's passport magically fluttering down down down

and landing right in front of a CNN reporter on 911.

not that we are talking about that day in particular -- but i use this as a counter-example to agruing that "REASON" is on the side of the dominant myth.

[endarkenment]

23. background music to that image:

"Do you believe in magic"

The odd thing is that the lead headed coincidence theorists think that they are the rational ones.

[sabbat hunter]

48. so are you saying

that CNN is in on the coverup?

lots of papers flew down from the towers that day.

seat cushions fell down to ground.

[Americus]

49. So, are you saying the perps didn't know a CNN reporter was there?

Are you saying they'd risk losing such an important piece of planted evidence by leaving it where just anyone could find it? Your local police don't plant evidence where it can be found by just anyone, and only as the result of luck. Why would you think the 9/11 perps would be any different?

Don't you have even a basic understanding of how things work in the real world of corrupt power and cooperative media?

[JackRiddler]

50. CNN?

Where do you get this?

Other than that it was reported on CNN, the magic passport was to my knowledge never said to have landed in front of a CNN reporter.

Rather, it was supposedly found by a cop after the first strike but before the towers collapsed (this version came out during the Commission hearings).

Here is an archive of the first ever report on the magic passport:

http://911research.wtc7.net/cache/disinfo/deceptions/abc_hunt.html

So my guess is you are getting the CNN part wrong - but "sabbathunter" as usual is dry-humping a strawman (as though you said CNN was "in on it" which you did not).

[Bolo Boffin]

51. Get your facts straight

The passport belonged to Satam al-Suqami, and a cop found it, not a CNN reporter.

Building a fanciful conjecture on top of sloppy factchecking is no way to run a truth movement.

[endarkenment]

14. Indeed. eom

[ima_sinnic]

4. I am with you all the way

very well said and I refuse to shut up and "get over it."

Furthermore (are you ready?) I believe the conspiring among this bunch goes back a lot earlier than pre-2000. It started ca. early 1960s (yes, there are a few, like Bush Sr., who are still around) with assassination first of JFK, then of MLK, then of RFK, then Watergate and Iran-Contra (at least 8 Iran-Contra CONSPIRATORS are currently serving in this "administration.") Why can't a law be passed AT LEAST that anyone convicted of betraying the public trust can never ever again have a "government job" EVEN IF "pardoned" by fellow conspirators. WHY? what would be SO FRIGGIN HARD and unbelievable about that? :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:

[endarkenment]

13. Thanks - and I wasn't going to lay out the entire path

but as a child of the 60's the events of the PNAC era reaffirmed my earlier world view.

[Jackpine Radical]

40. 1960's? So late? What about the corporatist plan to overthrow FDR

in a coup to be led by Smedley Butler?

(And just for the ecord, I'm no tinfoil hatter. I wear a helmet made of 3mm of solid lead.)

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/Coup.htm

THE BUSINESS PLOT TO OVERTHROW ROOSEVELT

In the summer of 1933, shortly after Roosevelt's "First 100 Days," America's richest businessmen were in a panic. It was clear that Roosevelt intended to conduct a massive redistribution of wealth from the rich to the poor. Roosevelt had to be stopped at all costs.

The answer was a military coup. It was to be secretly financed and organized by leading officers of the Morgan and Du Pont empires. This included some of America's richest and most famous names of the time:

Irenee Du Pont - Right-wing chemical industrialist and founder of the American Liberty League, the organization assigned to execute the plot.
Grayson Murphy - Director of Goodyear, Bethlehem Steel and a group of J.P. Morgan banks.
William Doyle - Former state commander of the American Legion and a central plotter of the coup.
John Davis - Former Democratic presidential candidate and a senior attorney for J.P. Morgan.
Al Smith - Roosevelt's bitter political foe from New York. Smith was a former governor of New York and a codirector of the American Liberty League.
John J. Raskob - A high-ranking Du Pont officer and a former chairman of the Democratic Party. In later decades, Raskob would become a "Knight of Malta," a Roman Catholic Religious Order with a high percentage of CIA spies, including CIA Directors William Casey, William Colby and John McCone.
Robert Clark - One of Wall Street's richest bankers and stockbrokers.
Gerald MacGuire - Bond salesman for Clark, and a former commander of the Connecticut American Legion. MacGuire was the key recruiter to General Butler.
The plotters attempted to recruit General Smedley Butler to lead the coup. They selected him because he was a war hero who was popular with the troops. The plotters felt his good reputation was important to make the troops feel confident that they were doing the right thing by overthrowing a democratically elected president. However, this was a mistake: Butler was popular with the troops because he identified with them. That is, he was a man of the people, not the elite. When the plotters approached General Butler with their proposal to lead the coup, he pretended to go along with the plan at first, secretly deciding to betray it to Congress at the right moment.

What the businessmen proposed was dramatic: they wanted General Butler to deliver an ultimatum to Roosevelt. Roosevelt would pretend to become sick and incapacitated from his polio, and allow a newly created cabinet officer, a "Secretary of General Affairs," to run things in his stead. The secretary, of course, would be carrying out the orders of Wall Street. If Roosevelt refused, then General Butler would force him out with an army of 500,000 war veterans from the American Legion. But MacGuire assured Butler the cover story would work:
"You know the American people will swallow that. We have got the newspapers. We will start a campaign that the President's health is failing. Everyone can tell that by looking at him, and the dumb American people will fall for it in a second…"

[rucky]

6. Nobody can draw a clear line...

between what's plausible and what's "tinfoil". Every time I ask, I can never get a "fact-based" answer. Go figure.

:shrug:

[Sinti]

9. I accept that I am in fact a tin foil hat conspiracy theorist.

In order to believe there are no conspiracies in this world you must either be incredibly naive, or incapable of creative/nonlinear thought. Coincidence theories are for the weak minded who only know how to reiterate what they've been taught, there is definitely a tipping point at which you say, nah man, that ain't chance, no way... fate is fickle, plans are true to the course.

:toast:

[Kailassa]

10. For some reason, I'd kept believing that even if all the rest

was government conspiracy, at least the Oklahoma bombing had happened as we were told.

Somehow, with the fertilizer truck story seeming a good enough explanation, and knowing a creche full of kids had been blown up, ... well, surely the government would have no part in that.

But then I came across on-the-spot live video news coverage of the event, and was listening to details of the bombs inside the building, and watching as a bomb squad carried one out.

So I started reading up about the background, and about the witnesses, and what happened to them afterwards. If you don't already know about the story behind it, research it on the internet, it's all there. It's heartbreaking, but it's something we should all know.

I know Clinton was president at the time, but it could be that the neocons already had enough of a foothold in positions of power to have done it without him knowing. The alternative is really too terrible to contemplate. However it would explain why this thread is likely to end up in the 9/11 "dungeon", and why "conspiracy theory" talk is banned altogether on the Daily Kos.

:scared: :hug: It takes a lot of courage to see through the government lies that society accepts. I wish you strength and support.

[petgoat]

39. California Congressman plans bombing hearing

http://www.kten.com/Global/story.asp?S=5015988

OKLAHOMA CITY A California Congressman says he plans to hold a hearing on possible foreign ties to the Oklahoma City bombing.

The Oklahoman reported from its Washington bureau that Republican Representative Dana Rohrabacher announced Thursday that he will hold a hearing this fall on the topic.

He says he's been "personally" researching the bombing and met with convicted conspirator Terry Nichol in prison in Colorado.

Rohrabacher is chairman of the International Relations Subcommittee on oversight and investigations.

[nashville_brook]

11. features of a "conspiracy therory" in the perjorative

first off -- we need to back off of using the perjorative language.

comparing the PNAC agenda to the *features of a conspiracy theory* (wikipedia), i'm not seeing a relation...

here's the *features of a conspiracy theory*... read them and ask if you think they better describe the position of the dominant myth or the position of the truth movement.

Allegations exhibiting several of the following features are candidates for classification as conspiracy theories. Confidence in such classification improves the more such features are exhibited:


1. Initiated on the basis of limited, partial or circumstantial evidence;
Conceived in reaction to media reports and images, as opposed to, for example, thorough knowledge of the relevant forensic evidence.

2. Addresses an event or process that has broad historical or emotional impact;
Seeks to interpret a phenomenon which has near-universal interest and emotional significance, a story that may thus be of some compelling interest to a wide audience.

3. Reduces morally complex social phenomena to simple, immoral actions;
Impersonal, institutional processes, especially errors and oversights, interpreted as malign, consciously intended and designed by immoral individuals.

4. Personifies complex social phenomena as powerful individual conspirators;
Related to (3) but distinct from it, deduces the existence of powerful individual conspirators from the 'impossibility' that a chain of events lacked direction by a person.

5. Allots superhuman talents or resources to conspirators;
May require conspirators to possess unique discipline, unrepentant resolve, advanced or unknown technology, uncommon psychological insight, historical foresight, unlimited resources, etc.

6. Key steps in argument rely on inductive, not deductive reasoning;
Inductive steps are mistaken to bear as much confidence as deductive ones.

7. Appeals to 'common sense';
Common sense steps substitute for the more robust, academically respectable methodologies available for investigating sociological and scientific phenomena.

8. Exhibits well-established logical and methodological fallacies;
Formal and informal logical fallacies are readily identifiable among the key steps of the argument.

9. Is produced and circulated by 'outsiders', often anonymous, and generally lacking peer review;
Story originates with a person who lacks any insider contact or knowledge, and enjoys popularity among persons who lack critical (especially technical) knowledge.

10. Is upheld by persons with demonstrably false conceptions of relevant science;
At least some of the story's believers believe it on the basis of a mistaken grasp of elementary scientific facts.

11. Enjoys zero credibility in expert communities;
Academics and professionals tend to ignore the story, treating it as too frivolous to invest their time and risk their personal authority in disproving.

12. Rebuttals provided by experts are ignored or accommodated through elaborate new twists in the narrative;
When experts do respond to the story with critical new evidence, the conspiracy is elaborated (sometimes to a spectacular degree) to discount the new evidence, often incorporating the rebuttal as a part of the conspiracy.

13. The conspiracy is claimed to involve just about anybody;
Conspiracy tales grow in the telling, and can swell to world-spanning proportions. As the adherents struggle to explain counter-arguments, the conspiracy grows even more (see preceding item). Conspiracy theories that have been around for a few decades typically encompass the whole world and huge portions of history.

14. The conspiracy centers on the "usual suspects";
Classical conspiracy theories feature people, groups or organizations that are discriminated against in the culture where the story is told. Jews and foreigners are a common target. Likewise, organizations with a bad or colorful reputation feature prominently, such as the Templars, the Nazis and just about any secret service.

[TheDecider]

16. unfortunately there is probably no conspiracy becasue of a very sad reason

the thing is if the president came out and said there was a conspiracy he would then say that it was necessary for the protection of the american people from terrorists. then all of the repugs would jump in fear at the t-word and cover the ears and make themselves more blind to the truth around them. No sarcasm here. so the sad thing is if it was a conspiracy the president would have just said so because the country would have forgiven him just as it has forgiven him lying about the war, WMDs, the NSA, the NSA again,...and on and on

[nashville_brook]

18. yes yes and no

i think we agree here -- it's like that Dr Suess book, Put Me In The Zoo. we are calling the TRUTH MOVEMENT by names that don't fit:

conspiracy theory
tin foil hattedness

these are perjorative terms. when we use we are sometimes doing it in the spirit of self-deprecation. sometimes we use these terms b/c we haven't other terms of art that fit.

but the fact is -- the term 'conspiracy theory' doesn't work. in FACT, it's a misnomer. it's like referring to your pure-bred, champion Greyhound as a mutt. you do either because of ignorance or pandering.

[ocean girl]

20. Wow, you are so right about these terms

From now on, I identify myself as a loyal member of the TRUTH MOVEMENT and dedicate myself to learning the truth and accepting the truth (which is not easy sometimes).

Thanks!

[nashville_brook]

21. the women's movement has a strategy of reclaiming perjorative terms

and it works there because there's such a "his"tory of semantic turf wars. mary daly did a lot of work in 'the language debate' if you're interested in reading some of that.

we're only at the beginning of the War for Truth -- so, we don't benefit from "re-claiming" the perjoratives just yet. we're waiting for the Hundreth Monkey to wash his potato.

give it a while tho -- when it catches on... as we get more comfortable with admitting the level of deceit and demanding TRUTH, then people can wear their tin foil with pride. but we have a way to go before this is a useful strategy.

[endarkenment]

22. I used to scoff at the 'language debate'

in its sort of overboard campus 80s pc idiocy - and then I watched in horror as the theofascists used language as their chief weapon to befuddle an entire nation. I scoff no more. The language war is very real and very serious.

[nashville_brook]

34. well, i had just written a breif history of the PC debate...

and lost it to the ether when the thread was moved.

ironic, isn't it.

[endarkenment]

36. It is increasingly stupid

and is an example of what this op of mine is about.

[endarkenment]

38. Repost it as a separate thread.

Sounds interesting.

[nashville_brook]

42. i'll do that -- i'll have to rewrite

but thanks for this thread. it's been a nice, mind-shapening experience.

[endarkenment]

17. Right out in the open.

And still we are dismissed. They can report on the closing down of PNAC while disregarding the simple fact that these folks implemented the plan they laid out.

[rman]

47. That's obviously hogwash, since if it were correct it would mean

that no conspiracy theory ever has any merit - in other words: that conspiracies do not exist, or maybe that conspiracies do exist but that there's never any point to speculating or theorizing about conspiracies, either is dangerously ignorant and naive.

btw, the source of the list you present:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory

[BrklynLiberal]

24. I am with you and the others, on a search for the truth.

History is written by the victors. If we do not fight to expose the truth, it will never see the light of day. Call me whatever name you choose. I believe nothing I read, and only half of what I see.

Oceania was at war with Eurasia and in alliance with Eastasia. In no public or private utterance was it ever admitted that the three powers had at any time been grouped along different lines. Actually, as Winston well knew, it was only four years since Oceania had been at war with Eastasia and in alliance with Eurasia. But that was merely a piece of furtive knowledge which he happened to possess because his memory was not satisfactorily under control. Officially the change of partners had never happened. Oceania was at war with Eurasia: therefore Oceania had always been at war with Eurasia. The enemy of the moment always represented absolute evil, and it followed that any past or future agreement with him was impossible.
<snip>
The Party said that Oceania had never been in alliance with Eurasia. He, Winston Smith, knew that Oceania had been in alliance with Eurasia as short a time as four years ago. But where did that knowledge exist? Only in his own consciousness, which in any case must soon be annihilated. And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposed-if all records told the same tale-then the lie passed into history and became truth. "Who controls the past,"' ran the Party slogan, "controls the future: who controls the present controls the past." And yet the past, though of its nature alterable, never had been altered. Whatever was true now was true from everlasting to everlasting. It was quite simple. All that was needed was an unending series of victories over your own memory. "Reality control," they called it; in Newspeak, "doublethink."

[endarkenment]

27. We need to fight their framing and language.

All the time at every opportunity. They are the ones proposing absurd explanations for current events, not us.

[BrklynLiberal]

28. Absolutely. BushCo pees on our shoes and tells us it is raining.

[gordianot]

25. Not done in secret, done in the open, but a conspiracy.

We were not invited to the planning meetings. Even if the plans were knowledge before the fact it would not have stopped the outcome, too unbelievable. As the shoe vendors remind us, "Just do it".

[endarkenment]

31. We even know when the big planning meetings were held.

Of course it is just coincidence that Cheney et al fought tooth and nail to have his party list to his big secret energy committee meetings kept just as secret as the proceedings of those meetings.

[teriyaki jones]

26. My tin-foil hat is shiny

I was never a conspiracy-theorist until recently, though I've always held the truth in high regard.

The more I read and research, the more frightened I become.

You gotta give these bastards credit, however reluctantly. They have pulled off a coup in broad daylight. Fucking evil geniuses.

BTW, endarkenment--I just love your screen name! Brilliant!

[endarkenment]

29. I thought I invented it until I googled it.

Turns out that it is a big planet full of smart people, and that the concept of an endarkenment (and even a rock group named endarkenment) have been around for a while.

I might have invented lead headed coincidence theorists.

[BrklynLiberal]

30. A tinfoil hat for your furbaby! Brilliant!!!

What a pair of cuties.

[teriyaki jones]

33. Thanks, they share my paranoia

The puppies have heard me yell and scream at the computer and tv so often that they know there is something big to fear--but they seem to think it has something to do with the dog-treat supply chain.

And, as predicted, this thread has been moved to 9/11 forum. Sigh.

[BrklynLiberal]

41. But, of course.......

x( Into the dungeon.

[drdtroit]

45. Only because the media was/is complicit

and the majority of the society are intellectually slothful.
:patriot:

[endarkenment]

32. To even talk about the differences between

coincidence theory and conspiracy theory is to be relegated to the 9-11 dungeon. How nice. I object.

[nashville_brook]

35. it's b/c 9-11 was used as an example

and the word 'conspiracy' was being examined.

there's a long road to hoe...

[rucky]

37. Welcome to the back of the bus. n/t

[StealthyDragon]

43. I accept that I am in fact a tin foil hat conspiracy theorist.

Actually "tin foil hat" is just the way that the neocons have decided to paint analytical thinkers.

Since most people aren't analytical, the new term is accepted as fact.

60% of the population (the non thinking majority) also believes that the Earth is 6,000 years old.

[Americus]

44. Well said. n/t

n/t

[OneBlueSky]

46. is it still a conspiracy "theory" if a conspiracy really exists? . . . n/t

.