Axiomatic Proof the Twin Towers NEVER EXISTED!!!!

[MervinFerd]

A. The alleged towers COULD NOT have fallen because they were hit by jet airplanes.
B. It would have required Invisible Jewish Elves to plant explosives to create a controlled demolition.
C. There are no Invisible Jewish Elves.
D. There are no towers now.
Therefore:
D. The Towers never existed.



The belief the towers existed was created by clever use of advertising and photoshop pictures of the NY skyline.

[Lilith Velkor]

1. Hey, some of my best friends are Invisible Jewish Elves!

And so what if they like to photoshop, everyone has a hobby!

Jeez, you 9/11 conspiracy freaks are SUCH BIGOTS! :grr:

[Americus]

2. Which 9/11 Conspiracy freaks are you referring to? OCT'ers?

It sounds like you are talking about the folks (OCT'ers) that support (or say they support) the 9/11 conspiracy theory aka Official Conspiracy Theory. You know, the one where OBL & his band of 19 merry/coked-up/topless-bar-lizards/muslim fanatics had the "good fortune" to time their "attacks" on the very day that military exercises just happened to be going on and thus provided cover for their mission. Luck. Coincidence. Or, inside job?

[RedSock]

3. I Do Not Exist

1. I worked for three years in WTC 1.

2. The WTC towers never existed.

3. I do not exist.

:shrug:

[Lilith Velkor]

5. Tell the NSA that

Oh wait...they don't exist either :blush:

[Lilith Velkor]

4. I'm referring to anti-ObscuraSemiteKeeblers, of course

The 9/11 truth movement is full of them, and we must drop everything we are doing and point at them and scream every time we detect one, otherwise people won't take us seriously! :silly:

[LARED]

9. Wait a second

I'm an invisible Jewish elve and I don't exist.

[Lilith Velkor]

10. Irrelevant

It's vitally important to examine all the websites of paranoid schizophrenics and make sure they don't have bigoted statements included in their psychotic ramblings. Otherwise we look like Nazis.

Especially for minorities so tiny they don't even exist. :pals:

[MervinFerd]

12. I saw him there, upon the Stair,

The Jewish Elf that wasn't there.....

Apologies to Ogden Nash.....

[salvorhardin]

6. I blame Mario Cuomo

And his infernal I Love NY propaganda machine.

[MervinFerd]

7. The ruse probably started under his administration....

The engineers determined that the Twin Towers design was defective. But it was too late to change or back out.

So they set up the Fake Twin Tower Commission. People went into elevators they believed were for the Twin Towers, but they were really moved sideways into adjacent buildings.

9/11 was necessary because the coverup was beginning to unravel and the expense was enormous. All the bribes. All the energy to maintain the Holographic Towers.

Holographic airplanes hit holographic towers.

There's a beautiful symmetry to that.

[salvorhardin]

8. Holgraphic Governor!

I bet you never thought of that! The holographic doctor in Star Trek: Voyager was clearly a coded message to warn us. George Pataki doesn't really exist, and Mario Cuomo is still pulling the strings from Albany.

[MervinFerd]

11. No!!! I hadn't thought of that one. But YOU ARE RIGHT!!

Remember when (supposed) Cuomo gave that eloquent speech to the Democratic Convention?

How could we have known he was just a hologram?

Tragic.

[Grateful for Hope]

13. MervinFerd

So what do you hope to accomplish with this thread? I already know the answer. You are in my imagination. Ooh, boy!

[MervinFerd]

75. O' You can just call me Mervin.....

But, if you already know the answer, why do you ask?

[Grateful for Hope]

14. This thread really bothers me

It certainly is a "copycat" thread, and it's intent is to put down and make fun of the serious 9/11 researchers here.

I guess there is no modification in the 9/11 dungeon.

How sad.

[dailykoff]

15. It's a troll hole.

[Grateful for Hope]

16. Exactly n/t

[mirandapriestly]

19. I found a site once

of freepers who infiltrated DU and they would post about what they would do and ridicule DU'ers . It reminds me of what goes on here. I am not making accusations I am just saying that is what it reminds me of.

[mirandapriestly]

18. It's actually a logical fallacy

called "the appeal to ridicule",which sounds like something one of our pretentious trolls might say.
If you lack facts, then ridicule to attempt to create the illusion that what you are ridiculing is not true. It's pretty primitive. That is what the GOP did to John Kerry and Al Gore. It works for the simple minded.

[Lilith Velkor]

20. It's called "letting off steam"

Insults and insinuations and TYPING IN ALL CAPS!!! are a piss-poor way to convince others to take you seriously. So us primitive, simple-minded folk make fun.

Do you have some facts you'd like to share?

[mirandapriestly]

21. I didn't even read your post

and I don't plan to. The OP is attempting to parody a post someone else wrote, which is a really nasty thing to do. I don't know what you are talking about with ALL CAPS. I'm defending my own, that's all.

[Lilith Velkor]

26. *lalalala-I-can't-HEAR-you*

:rofl:

[mirandapriestly]

36. Why would I be afraid to read your post?

Other than that they don't make any sense? Does this pass for wit? Why is it so important to you people to defend the bush administration and their roll in 9-11? You have so much hatred.

[Lilith Velkor]

43. You infer all that from one smilie?

Man, this thread just keeps getting funnier.

[Grateful for Hope]

27. Can you point out where

mirandapriestly has posts where she types in all caps? I haven't seen any.

[Lilith Velkor]

29. Wow what astoundingly serious 9/11 research

I'm very impressed.

[Grateful for Hope]

31. Yup, attack when you can't answer a question n/t

[mirandapriestly]

37. I suppose it looks that way

after a few bottles of whatever she 's been drinking.

[Grateful for Hope]

25. Yes, now that you mention it

this thread does sound like "the appeal to ridicule".

Thank you!

[MervinFerd]

22. It was intended to.

Think.

Any thread that postulates fantastic technology based on novel laws of physics and a vast conspiracy necessary to accomplish the feat

AND

the entire thing is based on some flashes of light in a single video

IS NOT SERIOUS.

There may be 'serious 9/11 researchers', but anyone posting this crap is not among them.

[RedSock]

24. lighten up

i have been doing various research on 9/11 since about 9/15 (and been a member of DU's 9/11 community since late 2001).

i do hope i have not destroyed the 9/11 truth movement with my small amount of silliness.

however, if i have set the movement back even a little, i apologize.

jeez.

:eyes:

[Grateful for Hope]

28. Lightening up is one thing

But, this thread is anything but "light".

[RedSock]

33. the jew thing is out of place

the jew thing is out of place ... and offensive ... i will say that.


my post was just being silly.

i believe in mihop all the way -- and still think a lot of the "theories" and "arguments" here -- sometimes posted by DUers with high post counts -- are silly.

the whole "fake video/fake hit" is certainly one of them.

[Grateful for Hope]

34. I don't believe some of the theories and arguments here

but, if someone is seriously presenting a theory because of his or her own particular belief, I think that person has a right to express that belief.

And debunking can be done respectfully.

The "jew thing" was definitely out of place, and, to me it suggested that some think that anyone who questions the official 9/11 story is bigoted. This, I found, very, very offensive.

[MervinFerd]

52. The original 9/11 CT was that 3000 Israelis had stayed home on 9/11.

And Jews are the traditional villains of the Paranoid Conspracy Theory crowd, which is overwhelming on the Far Right.

If you follow the links to much of the 9/11 'theory' you'll find many of them ending at Hard Right sites.

There's not really much difference between the current 9/11 silliness and the Right Wing conspiracies of UN Black Helicopters and such.

[mirandapriestly]

40. The first time I saw Hope post here,

she accidentally posted about her cat. An OCT started a joke about how we were now trying to bring cats into the conspiracy or something like that,and I made a joke about how her cat was a weiner dog "clo cloaked" as a cat being used as a missile,and that he was obviously CIA,etc... It was kind of funny and we were laughing at ourselves. This post, however, is a specific target making fun of a specific person who is a good poster (Spooked).
The thing about the ""no planes" issue that catches my attention is that I repeatedly and annoyingly, I'm sure, say that not as many people saw the impact as we think, there are conflicting witness reports on what was seen, the Pentagon seems to be trying to avoid letting the public see what happened at the pentagon, for some and there is a dearth of physical evidence for the planes. Does any of this mean there were no planes? no, but it does mean that we can 't take anything for granted and that the media presentation of 9-11 can be deceptive. Can you agree with that?

[Grateful for Hope]

41. I remember that

I was pretty embarrassed..but you all did make me feel better about it with all the jokes in that thread!

BTW, there was another conspiracy in my home that caused great fear and trepidation. The object causing all that stir is known as "Thing in the Bag".

Cats are very, very fearful:




:scared:

[Grateful for Hope]

42. And, BTW

you made some good points. Spooked is a good poster, and, it doesn't hurt to look at everything, even though one may not believe the theory.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Grateful for Hope]

32. Yes, I do see some of this here

but, some posts are just plain mean-spirited.

on edit: I am not implying this about your post. You are making an observation.

[Lilith Velkor]

35. Some of us have seen so many paid OCT Spin Doctors

That we get the urge to parody and mock them.

If this clowning upsets you so much, why not just ignore it?

[mirandapriestly]

39. That is true and that is what the goal is .

Can you imagine starting a thread in, say, the election fraud forum which ridiculed another person's post? For example there's a thread about Diebold owning a Black box Voting site (which is very interesting,I might add). What if Mervin Ferd starting a thread called "Alien Space Ship owns BBV!" I bet the mods would delete it and he would be "run outta town". Election Fraud is similar to 9-11 because it is not discussed in corporate media and because of this and a lack of investigation it is difficult to show incontrovertible proof of although to many it is obvious. But for some reason they can do whatever they want here.

[SidDithers]

44. Still waiting for the link to that article...

about the PR firms hired to discredit the 9/11 truth movement.

I read somewhere that the PR firm(s) hired to undermine efforts to uncover the truth about 9/11 save money by having one person post under several different usernames.

I'd hate to think you were just making it all up.

Sid

[mirandapriestly]

49. I've read that, too

Americus didn't claim to have a link. I remember reading it about the GOP though during the election.

[Americus]

50. Instead of dithering around, if you're interested - do some RESEARCH

I'd hate to think the idea of using PR firms is news to you. If it is, then you've got some catching up to do, Mr. Dithers.

Most objective researchers here know about the PR firm (Hill & Knowlton) that made up the story about the incubators in Kuwait during the first Gulf War. You remember that, don't you? No? Are you just saying that or are you really that uninformed?

Another one I'm sure you're familiar with (wink wink) is the Rendon Group.

Do some research and then report back to us. If you play fair, we won't laugh at you or make fun of you, or accuse you of being Ferd clone.

[mirandapriestly]

57. Now he's going to say:

you won't give him the link which is PROOF that it is false. One of them did this to me the other day. Then today I asked one to show proof for what he had said and his response was that he could only respond to me with ridicule. They need to live up to their own standards for others.

[Americus]

61. The dishonesty in their misrepresentations is breath taking.

Why are they allowed to get away with such tactics? If this was a web site devoted to let's say "How to Be a Better Catholic"...would people be allowed to post messages on it claiming that the Catholic Church is a hologram? Would they be allowed to post messages claiming that Catholics worship the Devil? Would they be allowed to post messages that promote Islam as a superior religion to Catholicism? Would they be allowed to post insulting messages, such as "Catholics need to take off their tin-foil hats and get right with Pat Robertson"?

Would those kind of posters be tolerated and condoned? I don't know. I guess the owners of this site have made a decision that free speech rights mean that we have to put up with people and views that we wouldn't allow in our presence in a private setting.

[SidDithers]

63. Riiight...

and labelling people as "paid infiltrators" isn't a misrepresentation.

Sid

[SidDithers]

62. So, Hill & Knowlton and the Rendon Group...

are being paid to discredit the 9/11 truth movement?

I just want to be clear with what you're actually claiming. You specifically said that PR firms have been hired to discredit the 9/11 truth movement. I'd just like to know where you read that, and exactly which firms have been hired.

As I've stated in other posts, I know about PR firms being hired to fake a grassroots movement. There was a letter writing campaign a few years ago, where the same letter to the editor turned up in dozens of newspapers across the US. Astroturfing and sockpuppets are nothing new, but your claim was the first time I've heard a PCT'er state that PR firms have been hired to discredit the 9/11 truth movement.

My apologies for asking for a link to an article. Looking back, you didn't say where you'd read this, only that you had. I asked you to cite a source, so that I could try to evaluate the validity of your claim. I'm happy to do my own research, but you gotta give me a clue where to start.

Sid

[mirandapriestly]

74. Read it again

There are hired people on the internet who try to control public opinion on a variety of issues, I would imagine 9-11 would be among them. This is also done heavily by the GOP especially during the elections. It isn't that ridiculous to speculate posters are doing it on this forum because most of you :

*have no interest or knowledge of 9-11, only interest in those posting about it.

*don't post on the rest of DU or show in any way that you are a democrat or progressive (except
for "fake" posts to get up post count) or "propaganda" posts like the recent Zarqawi post."A vewwy vewwy bad man died today"

*start sub threads which distract from the main thread and prevent the target from pursuing their line of thinking/posting.

*Demand "proof" for statements, but never provide proof for anything that you say.
Ridicule, rather than answer questions.

*Claim dubious professional expertise.

[SidDithers]

84. Wow, lots of generalizations in that post...

You can imagine all you want, but the poster specifically stated that PR firms were hired to discredit the 9/11 truth movement, and then later gave the names of 2 PR firms in conjunction to something completely unrelated to the 9/11 truth movement.

Personally, I don't believe that anyone thinks that 9/11 truthers are dangerous enough to spend money trying to discredit them. The "paid infiltrators" meme, while amusing, is truly based only in that fantasy world where everything is possible and even the most ridiculous of ideas has cheerleaders.

If there is anyone being paid, it is more likely the shills promoting the 9/11 Truth Industry, hyping books and videotapes for the low, low price of $13.99, shipping and handling not included.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1579830137/sr=8-1/qid=1149966361/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-3353377-5621637?%5Fencoding=UTF8
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1566565847/ref=pd_sim_b_2/002-3353377-5621637?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0930852311/ref=pd_sim_b_2/002-3353377-5621637?%5encoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0786716134/sr=8-3/qid=1149978109/ref=sr_1_3/002-3353377-5621637?%5Fencoding=UTF8
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/031298748X/qid=1149978303/sr=2-2/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_2/002-3353377-5621637?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
etc
etc
etc

Sid

[Americus]

85. You don't care if there are paid OCT Spin Doctors, do you?

See, if it weren't for paid OCT Spin Doctors, DU could be accused of being one-sided and biased.

[SidDithers]

86. I'm still waiting for evidence that there is such a thing as ...

"paid OCT Spin Doctors", hired by PR firms to discredit the 9/11 truth movement. That's your claim, not mine.

How many in the 9/11 Truth Industry are using the events of September 11 to sell a book or a video? How many are capitalizing on the gullibility of Americans to make a quick buck? How many are exploiting the victims of 9/11 for their own personal gain?

I'll ask you once again about your earlier statment...Are you claiming that Hill & Knowlton and the Rendon Group are being paid to discredit the 9/11 truth movement?

It's a simple question. Should be easy to answer, and yet you keep dodging.

Sid

[Americus]

87. I don't know who is being paid to discredit the 9/11 truth movement. Do U

know who is being paid to discredit the 9/11 truth movement? Would it surprise you if you learned that H & K and The Rendon Group were paid to discredit the 9/11 truth movement? No, it woudn't surprise me at all, since both firms have enjoyed lucrative contracts to scare the public and help build consensus and momentum for the U.S. to carry out illegal invasions.

Do I know who posts here that WOULD know? No. Do YOU know of anyone here that YOU think might well know what firm(s) have been retained to help promote the OCT and to discredit the 9/11 truth movement? If you say that you don't even have a reason to believe that's even a possibility, then someone like that just isn't very well informed, and YOU'D say that YOU are very well informed, right?

[SidDithers]

88. I have no idea if they have or haven't been hired...

It was you that made the claim that PR firms had been hired to discredit the 9/11 truth movement. I understand why you're now backing away from that claim, seeing as there's no real evidence to support it.

Do I think it's a possibility? Sure, I guess it could be true. Frankly, though, I don't think that the 9/11 truth movement has any credibility to begin with, so I don't really believe that someone would spend money to try to discredit it. As I said, I think it's more likely that the only people being paid are the ones shilling for the various authors and movie producers selling 9/11 related garbage to a gullible public.

Sid

[Americus]

89. I hardly recognize my own views after Mr. Dithers misstates them.

YES, I have no doubt that there are paid Spin Doctors (call 'em what you want to: shills, disinformation agents, PR flacks, professional advocates etc.) that have been hired to try and discredit the 9/11 truth movement.

Do I think it's a possibility that Mr. Dithers is one? No. It's a job for professionals.

[SidDithers]

91. The paranoia of some truthers is astounding...

Paid disinformation agents swarming message boards to discredit those whose claims include such gems as:
- holographic planes crashed into the WTC towers
- thermite was used in controlled demolition of the WTC towers
- a missile hit the Pentagon
and on, and on, and on...

Yet you don't see the utter absurdity of that position.

Tell me, what colour is the sky in your little world?

Sid

[Americus]

92. I DO see the utter absurdity of the Dithers position.

* Paid disinformation agents on message boards? Yes, and NO, I don't believe you're THAT naive.

* Holographic planes? What exactly are you talking about?

* Thermite used in WTC towers? The best explanation thus far.

* A missile hit the Pentagon? Very, very likely.

Until you study more about 9/11, wouldn't it better to remain silent and thought a fool, than to continue to speak up and remove all doubt?

[Jazz2006]

106. Sid - Utter absurdity is right.

But, sadly, he or she probably doesn't seem to see it.

Oh well, it takes all kinds.

[Lilith Velkor]

110. So that's why they have their shorts in a twist

OK, now the reaction to this thread makes a little more sense.

I know a few PCTers IRL and they'd never freak out like this.

[Jazz2006]

116. You know PCTers in real life?

Yikes. I hope you have heavy duty tin foil on hand when you come in contact with them.

That said, you may be right - if I'm reading between the lines correctly here - that some of the tinhatters could well be the payroll of PR firms to advance the sales of crap videos and books put out by the "9/11 truth movement"

Sadly, though, I think that most of the tinhatters here at DU actually believe the nonsense they spout. Sure, some of them seem to want to promote their own sites, some of them are just cheerleaders, some of them are completely looneytunes, some of them are sockpuppets, and some of them are obviously promoting certain PCT theories and videos and such, but I really think that some of them actually believe the conspiracy theories that they espouse.

[Lilith Velkor]

117. They are human beings who have been traumatized

I don't require any kind of foil to protect myself from their opinions.

Maybe I'm getting old or something, but I remember a time when crazy people had their own websites and expressed thoughts online, and so-called sane people didn't feel the need to point at them and scream. Perhaps they are traumatized as well.

[MervinFerd]

120. Crazy people and websites....

First, you are not so old, if you think anything on a web site is -old-.

As to conspiracists, I'm not so tolerant.

1. This is a left-liberal site informally associated with the Democratic party. Things posted here reflect on liberals and the Democratic Party.

The only time the site made the NYT was when some nice fellows were speculating that Bush caused the Asian Tsunami. That, I think, is the reason for the 9/11 dungeon.

These guys can post what they want on their OWN websites. But on left-liberal public sites, they need to be countered.

2. It's not sensible to debate truly loopy stuff. The best stategy is often ridicule. If you wind up debating how many Invisible Elves are required to operate a holographic airliner, you have conceded the important issue already.

3. Conspiracy theories systematically use logical fallacies and false or misleading information. It's just not good to leave such stuff unrebutted.

4. Conspiracy theories are traditionally associated with the Hard Right and some of the current 9/11 Truth sites also feature holocaust denial and 'New World Order' RW rhetoric. The local folk don't subscrbe to these things, but the methods of Conspiracy Logic make them plausible.

5. If there is a Conspiracy, eventually there must be ConspiraTORs. Some minority group will take the blame.

[Lilith Velkor]

121. The paranoids are out to get you?

Gawd. Next thing you know, we'll have people saying we have to freak out over penis enlargement spam, so that liberals don't look bad. :eyes:

[MervinFerd]

122. Penis Enlargement Spam.....

isn't posted on a liberal Democratic party website.

And the people doing it don't claim to be Liberals, or label anyone who questions the efficacy of their treatment as a paid administration shill.

[Lilith Velkor]

123. You haven't been here long, then

The trolls we had here in the early days would have sent you screaming to the hills.

[Bolo Boffin]

118. No doubts here that they believe

I used to question it, but my only reasons to do so sounded too much like their reasons for thinking me to be a paid shill.

I also know a prominent CTer - was actually involved in a play with him. He's made the national scene, and though he is a big publicity hound, with a couple of tapes that he hawks, he is most definitely a true believer.

[Americus]

119. Official spokesperson for the OCT & Plain-As-Day- Fairy Tale Brigade

Was the jazzperson meaning to describe the OCT'ers, shills, Spin Doctors & assorted other neocon cheerleaders for the Bush 9/11 Conspiracy Theory whenever s/he said:

"Sadly, though, I think that most of the tinhatters here at DU actually believe the nonsense they spout. Sure, some of them seem to want to promote their own sites, some of them are just cheerleaders, some of them are completely looneytunes, some of them are sockpuppets, and some of them are obviously promoting certain PCT theories and videos and such, but I really think that some of them actually believe the conspiracy theories that they espouse."

Anyone that believes in fairy tales like the 9/11 OCT would certainly be well advised to don a tin hat just to avoid being recognized in public. Must be awfully embarassing. Then again, the right incentive$ can cause people to say they believe in all manner of Bushco BS.

[MervinFerd]

77. No discrediting necessary.

They do it themselves.

[MervinFerd]

60. Actually,-I- am making additional money by working for -several- PR firms.

But don't tell them.

[New Earth]

66. you mean moderation?

and i'm not correcting you to be a poop, but i agree.
there is a very low amount of moderation in this forum.
i think the way this forum is treated in general is a disgrace to those who died on 9/11.
not the people here trying to find out the truth.
but of course, must keep mouth shut.
:spank:

[mrgerbik]

17. bullshit

I dont understand your sarcasim. Please elbaorate.

[MervinFerd]

23. You seem not to be taking my theory seriously.

You are not addressing the points I raised.

You have not refuted my arguments. You have not contradicted my logic.

Yet you ridicule my theory.

How dare you!

[Lilith Velkor]

38. Goddam those infiltrater trolls!!

:argh:

[quickesst]

45. After reading...

this thread and it's responses, I have one question. Is Man Coulter trolling here now, cause I can't tell a difference between this thread and one of her disengenuous snarky interviews. I'd say, if you're not interested in the subject, why would any reasonable person want to waste their time trying so desperately to minimize the CT movement.

A: You're paid to do it.
B: You have no life.
What other reason could there possibly be? Unless, you truly, and honestly believe the official govenment story. I didn't list that alternative under C, because, well, I try not to offend the handicapped. Thanks.
quickesst

[m0nkeyneck]

46. if A is true..

then B can be assumed ;-)

[Bolo Boffin]

47. You left off D

D. You have some questions about 9/11 but find them unaskable because you are lumped in with misguided people who indulge in controlled demolition twaddle and Flight 77 denial. So you spend some time trying to argue rationality into them, in the ever decreasing hope that some real questions might gain a little traction.

[Lilith Velkor]

48. Thank you

I've only posted in this forum twice this year, and last time I was accused of being an anti-Semitic conspiracy theorist just for pointing out that FrontPageMag is a bunch of rightwing crap.

I don't really care if people want to amuse themselves by making shit up about strangers on a messageboard. But if they think that makes a difference in their favor, I can only shake my head in sad wonderment.

[MervinFerd]

51. Why don't you take my theory seriously?

If I am supposed to take Holographic Jetliners seriously, why not Holographic Skyscrapers and Holographic Governors?

Where's the difference? Skyscrapers are bigger, but they stand still. And several Governors could be animatronic, if not Holographic.

Why is my theory a Troll and the Holographic Jetliner a TruthSeeking?



I don't necessarily believe "the Government Story" but I believe the perceptions and conclusions of thousands of honest witnesses and investigators.

[Lilith Velkor]

53. And the holographic airforce base

*snap* That's why we had no fighters over DC in time--Andrews AFB doesn't exist!
HUGH!!111

[MervinFerd]

54. YES!!! This is a TOE (Theory of Everything).

It's lots cheaper to have a fake holographic military base than to build a real one.

Probably much of our military is really holograms.

[LARED]

55. Hmmmmmm

Maybe reality is just a UTH. Unified Theory of Holograms.

Nothing is real. Everything is a digitized hologram or dare I say, a sort of matrix.

Maybe we could make a movie about this to let everyone know.

[Jazz2006]

58. Hmmmm

Not a bad idea.

Perhaps it could be called "Loose Toenails"

[salvorhardin]

56. Hmm. I like this TOE.

But does it explain TOEJAM?

[Jazz2006]

59. How about a joint venture of TOEJAM and UTH....

Where TOE = Theory Of Everything and where UTH = Unified Theory of Holograms?

Perhaps the two could be combined and reformulated into "TRUTH"

~ True Reality and the Unsustainable Theory of Holograms.

Open for suggestions on improving the acro, obviously :D

[Lilith Velkor]

65. And it's brought to you by THEY

Tyrannical Holographic Elven Yokels - a gigantic conspiracy to make the 9/11 Truth movement look ridiculous.

THEY are everywhere. Watch yer back. :yoiks:

[SidDithers]

67. MIHOPers...we put the P in Paranoid Conpiracy Theory...

I wonder how many of them are being paid by Scholars for 9/11 Truth or David Griffin to help sell books.

Sid

[MervinFerd]

69. It HAS become a commercial enterprise.

Sort of like Pat Robertson peddling salvation (and diet plans).

[salvorhardin]

76. Don't forget the anti-semitic Illuminatist conspiracy theories too

The New World Order (Paperback)
by Pat Robertson
With prophetic timing, Pat Robertson takes a penetrating look at the reality and rhetoric of the coming new world order and the implications for people of faith. This New York Times bestseller gives a compelling assessment of the imminent dangers looming on the world's horizon.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0849933943

I'd use my Amazon affiliate link on that to try and get a couple extra bucks to pay for my car (the brakes failed mysteriously -- Rove tried to assassinate me!) but with it currently selling at as little as 13 cents I don't think it would help.

[petgoat]

64. Because Point B is an unjustified assumption.

If I am supposed to take Holographic Jetliners seriously, why not
Holographic Skyscrapers and Holographic Governors?

Because there is a great deal of evidence that the WTC existed. A great
number of people had been there. Governors do make public appearances.
Of course, these could be actors hired to impersonate the hologram.

There is less evidence that the planes existed.

You're just taking the juvenile solipsism ("the entire universe is a figment
of my imagination") and transfering the concept to holograms.

I tend to believe airplanes hit the towers and the Pentagon. But I've learned
to keep in mind that my own beliefs might turn out to be wrong.

If holograms and Pentagon missiles are so laughable as to be worthy of ridicule,
try doing something useful and refuting them logically.

I believe the perceptions and conclusions of thousands of honest witnesses

How do you know eyewitnesses could distinguish a holographic 767 from a real one?

[MervinFerd]

68. So is Point A. So? This is Conspiracy-Land.

<<How do you know eyewitnesses could distinguish a holographic 767 from a real one?>>
How do you know we are not butterflies dreaming we are men? This is just silly, unless you have some evidence of holographic 767s. Besides the witnesses saw much else that would be hard to explain by 'holographic 767s'.

Rational refutation of No Planes?

1. The theory explains nothing. It merely postulates vastly complicated mechanisms to do things that could be done much more simply. "The Gov't did 9/11---and they chose the most ridiculously complicated methods anyone could imagine."
2. The mechanisms are physically impossible. Not only are there no evidence of this hologram technology, use of it would require that virtually all the events of the day were simulated or faked. Completely impossible.
3. There is vast evidence there WERE planes. (Really, there is.)
4. The evidence of No Planes is ridiculously weak---light blips on a particular video, disputed and doubtful identification of airplane parts from images posted on the internet.

Ridicule is the best treatment of this 'Theory'.

Sorry.

[Americus]

70. How do we know who is a Daisy participant?

How do we know who is a sincere, but uninformed Freeper?

How do we know who is an INformed, but INsincere OCT'er/shill?

Helping people understand that there are people here solely to distract and try to cast doubt on truthseekers is important to do, in my opinion. Obviously, no one can prove beyond doubt who, if anyone, is PAID to post here, but if there ARE any paid shills here, as a taxpayer, I resent the Government spending money to pay them to lie, mislead, spin, distract, disrespect, and take advantage of a lenient policy of high toleration for such things.

[Lilith Velkor]

71. Thanks for kicking this thread again, dude

Y'all make our jobs so EASY.

*ka-ching*

[petgoat]

72. Your belief that an irrational satire shows a conspiracy theory

to be irrational simply demonstrates circular reasoning on your part.

My point about the holgraphic 767 is simply that your apparent belief that
honest eyewitnesses means there was no hologram is not justified. I see no
need to take holographic 767s seriously--only you do, and only as a straw
man to be ridiculed. I haven't seen anyone argue for holograms on this
board. I only argue that the should be shown to be impossible rather than
ridiculed on the face of it, because we might be wrong.

vastly complicated mechanisms to do things

And what's vastly complicated about a hologram and rigging the building to blow
a plane-shaped hole in the side? It's certainly more fool-proof than relying on
suicidal lunatics not to lose their nerve at the last minute.

use of it would require that virtually all the events of the day were simulated
or faked.

Huh? You're raving.

[MervinFerd]

73. shown to be impossible rather than...

<<I only argue that the should be shown to be impossible rather than
ridiculed on the face of it, because we might be wrong.>>

It is not COMPLETELY impossible that you, Mr. Goat, are a 3-headed Andovian crimp flozzer from the planet ZizNoz. I've never seen you.

But, it's not very likely.

And, its not very useful to argue the question, and I really don't know what rational arguments I could come up with to dissuade someone who was convinced that you -were- a 3-headed Andovian crimp flozzer from the planet ZizNoz.

Likewise, it is not COMPLETELY impossible that the Evil Secret Government (ESG) can simulate jetliners and fool thousands of witnesses.

But it's not very likely.

And, its not very useful to argue the question. And, I really don't know what rational arguments would convince a person who does not already see the absurdity of this 'theory'.

Hence, ridicule.




<<use of it would require that virtually all the events of the day were simulated
or faked. >>

Imagine you are the administrator of the ESG office of simulated airplane hijackings. Now plan the event:

1. Find hijackers.
2. Dispose of airplanes
3. Find operators of holographic airplane equipment
4. Find expert building demolition team
5. Get explosives planted in precise locations
6. Simulate calls from plane to relatives.
7. Simulate radar signals

NOW, how many people have you used?

[petgoat]

78. No one is arguing that space aliens were involved in any of this.

Your conflation of "not completely impossible" with "not very likely,"
and your conflation of "not completely impossible" with "convinced" are
not rational.

It is only scientific to believe that what is not impossible is possible.

It is only rational to think that what is possible may have happened.

To keep the door open to the possibility that something may have happened
is not to be convinced that it did happen.

1. Find hijackers.
2. Dispose of airplanes
3. Find operators of holographic airplane equipment
4. Find expert building demolition team
5. Get explosives planted in precise locations
6. Simulate calls from plane to relatives.
7. Simulate radar signals

1. Is subbed out to al Qaeda. Maybe. Why was it necessary to send $100,000 to the
hijacker team a month before 9/11? Maybe they thought they were doing something
else.

2. The sea is wide and a plane is small.

3. If such equipment exists, the military has it. Do you have reason to think
operating it is extremely difficult?

4. Military, or al Qaeda. Who needs an expert? According to FEMA the building is a
house of cards. NIST argues that collapse initiation = total progressive collapse.
If so, one need only put a few charges in the elevator shafts and the whole thing
comes down.

5. What's so difficult about that? In my experience building security watches who
enters and exits, takes responsibility to watch for fires and broken pipes, and little
else.

6. Why would the calls need to be simulated? Do you know for sure where those planes
were when the calls were made? Besides, most of them were made from the plane that
allegedly crashed in Shanksville. How many calls were made from flights 11, 175, and 77?

7. That's handled by the false injects for the war games.

Besides, your statement was that the hologram theory requires that virtually all of the
events of the day were faked. A number of the events of the day had nothing to do with
the possibility of the presence of a hologram over lower Manhattan.


---Edited for three typos--

[Americus]

79. Your points are very plausible and very persuasive.

The OCT Brigrade will be hard pressed to respond substantively.

You are a very effective advocate. Thanks for being here.

[petgoat]

80. Thanks, Americus

I want to make clear that I am not propounding any hologram theory. Personally, I
push it back to such a far corner of the table that I won't bother to investigate
its plausibility or implausibility.

My point is just that if someone wants to take it off the table, they'd better show
a good rational reason, and something along the lines of "Elvis is dead and therefore
holograms are impossible" is not it.

[AZCat]

113. I don't think impossibility is the only criteria to apply.

Unfortunately the complexity of the 9/11 events and our lack of information about key elements of those events present a problem when trying to decide which of the various theories is the correct one. Limiting the culling criteria to possibility/impossibility is too conservative, IMO, because there are a number of theories that are possible but very improbable. For example, it's possible Dr. Rice couldn't - and didn't - imagine prior to 9/11 that someone could use an aircraft as a weapon (she doesn't have a great track record in prognostication) but considering the prevalence of such a method in both popular literature (Tom Clancy's book) and in government documents it would seem improbable that it had not come up for discussion (perhaps in a certain PDB?).

Holograms - or more properly volumetric displays - seem possible, but the crude examples available for public scrutiny are so distant from what would be necessary to simulate aircraft impacting hi-rises that it is impossible to inspect the technology with any comparison to the 9/11 events in mind. We don't know the limits of volumetric displays yet because we just haven't reached any - researchers are still in the "crawling" stages. It would be like someone in the early twentieth century declaring that aircraft can only go 10,000 kts when the technology of the day was putting along at sub-100 kts speeds. We now know what limitations there are to aircraft speeds (at least within the atmosphere) but until the technology improved enough for us to begin testing those limits, any declaration of impossibility was merely guesswork.

Anyway, that's just my opinion - do with it what you will.

[MervinFerd]

81. Can you PROVE you are NOT a Space Alien?

Can you PROVE the Earth is round? Without recourse to authority?

The question is: "Worth thinking about" vs "So improbable, its only a distraction".

Discussions of Holographic Airplanes just obscure real, serious questions.

In Grown-Up conversations, you don't bring up silly things. Unless your intention is to annoy the Grownups.

[petgoat]

82. "In Grown-Up conversations, you don't bring up silly things."

Agreed, absolutely. You are the one who, in post 51, brought up holograms.
I agree, it's an absolute distraction from the real issues of why there was
no air defense and why the intel wasn't acted upon and what connections did
these patsies or hijackers have to the US military and to drug operations.

Can you PROVE the Earth is round?

I can present a lot of evidence.

Climb a hill over a flat floodplain valley and you'll see the earth curve.

Look out over the sea from a high cliff and you'll see the sea curve, see
a ship seem to sink out of sight.

The moon is clearly a ball, and the sun is either a disk or a ball. Why shouldn't
the earth be a ball too?

The fact that the sun at noon is to the south in the northern hemisphere, straight
overhead at the equator, and to the north in the southern hemisphere is consistent
with a globular world.

Reports of people who claim to have sailed or flown around the world are consistent
with a globular world.

Simultaneous observations from various parts of the world of the angle of the sun
and its magnetic bearing would I believe be consistent with a globular world.

So yes, I believe I could prove the world is round.

[MervinFerd]

83. You haven't prove you are not a Space Alien.

The 'Silly Thing' was the proposition that the towers were not hit by airplanes, but by an optical illusion. My proposal that the Twin Towers were also illusions was silliER, but not by much.

You can't just postulate wild possibilites. The military MIGHT have Holographic Airplanes; they MIGHT be able to turn water into wine; the MIGHT be able to cast Mind Control Spells. They MIGHT be Space Aliens.

But, probably not.

The No Airplanes bit just stops all rational discussion, wherever you draw that line.



Good Job on the Round Earth.
But if I am a True Believer, none of that washes. I said "Without recourse to Authority". Have YOU actually seen where the sun is at Noon in the Equator? You have only the word of the Authorites--the Official Globe Theory (OGT). And how do you know where the Equator is? And if it is over the Equator on a Mercator projection, wouldn't it look the same as over a Globe? And people "report" they have traveled around the world? What people? How do you know they weren't deceived? Maybe they are part of the OGT conspiracy. Maybe they are bribed. That's just Eye Witness testimony. Not reliable. Ultimately, you come back to Authority.

You can -see- some curvature from a sea cliff (or so I am told), but that just means the Earth is not -completely- flat. And that's the only first-hand evidence you have.

[petgoat]

96. The question is immaterial

The No Airplanes bit just stops all rational discussion

If you would bother to try to refute the theories rationally, the
discussion would remain rational.

Have YOU actually seen where the sun is at Noon in the Equator?

Friends tell me the constellations are different in Australia and Argentina.
A different sky points to a globular earth.

people "report" they have traveled around the world?

Relatives, friends, business associates. Published airline schedules are
consistent with a globular world. If it were flat and you had to drug all
the passengers and fly across the entire world to get from (for instance)
Vancouver to Seoul, people would have some funny stories about all those
lost hours.

You can -see- some curvature from a sea cliff (or so I am told), but that
just means the Earth is not -completely- flat. And that's the only first-hand
evidence you have.

I also have the evidence of having seen the midnight sun, and having witnessed
the change in climates in the latitudes. Drive a thousand miles north or south
in the spring or fall and you'll see the season change a month.

[MervinFerd]

103. But you haven't answered it. YOU CAN'T.

<< The No Airplanes bit just stops all rational discussion

If you would bother to try to refute the theories rationally, the
discussion would remain rational.>>

I did, actually. Back in the No Airplanes thread.

But, it doesn't really matter if I refute that one. The CIA --MIGHT-- have been using Alien Glider Technology from the Stargate. It MIGHT have developed spooky Mind Bending Hallucination Projections.

It's pointless to refute ridiculous possibilites.




<<Friends tell me the constellations are different in Australia and Argentina.
A different sky points to a globular earth.>>

No not really. Flat sky over flat Earth. Sky is just different at different places. Same as the Earth.

<<. If it were flat and you had to drug all
the passengers and fly across the entire world to get from (for instance)
Vancouver to Seoul, >>

You are just repeating the OGT (Official Global Theory). How do YOU know how long it -should- take to get from Seattle to Seoul?

<<. Drive a thousand miles north or south
in the spring or fall and you'll see the season change a month. >>

What does that have to do with a round Earth? It's just colder some places than others.

---

You've forgotten the pictures from Apollo.

I'll have to explain how those were faked.

[MervinFerd]

111. Still no answer....

[LARED]

90. Kick

I just want to keep the flame of 9/11 logic alive.

[petgoat]

93. "the flame of 9/11 logic"

Well, pardon me for my knee-jerk rationality, but when you guys want to make
1) 9/11 skepticism, 2) no-planes-hologram-theory, 3) space aliens, and 4) flat
earth all one thing, I've got to respond.

1. Is perfectly reasonable and rational
2. Is speculative, unnecessary (IMHO), plausible (IMHO), perhaps impractical
(but that has not been demonstrated)
3. Is speculative, unnecessary, and irrelevant
4. Is demonstrably false, requiring a conspiracy of millions to cover up the
existence of the edges of the earth

[Grateful for Hope]

95. It's kind of obvious

that any argument, no matter how ridiculous (items 3 and 4), will do to keep this thread kicked. Keeping a thread kicked by posting flamebait can be useful in attempting to demonstrate that 9/11 skeptics are "ridiculous" and "crazy", particularly if the thread itself is flamebait.

Too bad this is so transparent.

[LARED]

102. Hummm

My view of 1) 9/11 skepticism, 2) no-planes-hologram-theory, 3) space aliens, and 4) flat earth

1. Yes, being skeptical of some aspects of 9/11 is worthy of consideration.

2,3,4 are all equally irrational.

[MervinFerd]

105. What about the Fake Apollo Moon Landings?

How about the Hollow Earth?

[mirandapriestly]

94. ATTENTION. Stop Feeding The Trolls!

Just....stop. Let them go back to watching Fox news or their jobs at Homeland Security (which hires morons).

[Lilith Velkor]

108. Muchas gracias, amiga

So nice of you to keep kicking this thread. :popcorn:

[MervinFerd]

109. Yeah, wouldn't want a discussion of whether the Earth is flat to die.

[MervinFerd]

114. /,

[MervinFerd]

115. /.

[petgoat]

97. You're attacking the very concept of axiomatic proofs.

And doing a lousy job of it.

[LARED]

98. I'd say it about equal

This ones is a bit worse, but not much

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=92790&mesg_id=92790

[Americus]

99. That sounds like something a Daisy troll/OCT'er would say. n/t

n/t

[AZCat]

112. Does it make you feel better...

to use cute little insider terms to insult people?
Is your world so small that petty acts like this brighten it?

[mirandapriestly]

100. Here have some hay -

ridiculous comparision.

[Americus]

101. Very good. You are the quintessence of flattery! n/t

n/t

[Jazz2006]

107. delete - never mind.

too silly to respond to.

[MervinFerd]

104. No. Just dumb axiomatic proofs.

And, I seem to have gotten a lot of attention.