The Impossibility of Flying Heavy Aircraft Without Training by Nila Sagade

[MrSammo1]

The Impossibility of Flying Heavy Aircraft Without Training by Nila Sagadevan

At any rate, why is such ultra-low-level flight aerodynamically impossible? Because the reactive force of the hugely powerful downwash sheet, coupled with the compressibility effects of the tip vortices, simply will not allow the aircraft to get any lower to the ground than approximately one half the distance of its wingspan—until speed is drastically reduced, which, of course, is what happens during normal landings.

http://physics911.net/sagadevan.htm

[LARED]

1. Hummmm

Given this information it's a wonder planes can crash at all :sarcasm:

[greyl]

2. It sucks when web sites co-opt scientific terms to earn credibility,

doesn't it?

All it takes is money, though.

[MrSammo1]

9. It sucks more.......

when it's the truth!

http://911verses.com/underground/2005-06-06_Dave_vonKleist_Interviews_Nila_Sagadevan.MP3

http://mp3.rbnlive.com/Greg/0511/20051122_Tue_Greg1.mp3

http://mp3.rbnlive.com/Greg/0511/20051122_Tue_Greg2.mp3

[petgoat]

14. The OP didn't say crashing was impossible; it said low level

flight was impossible.

That's the difference between crashing into the Pentagon lawn and flying across the Pentagon lawn
into a target just four stories high.

[greyl]

3. They DID have training!

That's why it's so fucking ridiculous that our government allowed it to happen. Info from the Clinton administration was deemed unimportant by the bush admin.

In addition, it's a hasty conclusion to reach that the pilots all hit a planned target the size of a dime. Nobody knows the exact spot they were aiming for, so why assume that the impacts were "on target" beyond the fact that they hit huge buildings?

[JackRiddler]

8. "our" government?

Your naivete speaks volumes.

[mirandapriestly]

4. Yes, several, at least , professional pilots said

that it would take a very skilled pilot to maneuver those planes, also was it the FAA who thought that the plane on their screen going toward the Pentagon was a military jet because of the way it was handled? and then the flight school owner who was interviewed and said that Hani Hanjour (I think that's it) was an average/below average pilot. Hellooo?

[greyl]

5. No, the majority of people that can sense the truth disagree:

Of course the more realistic target for these claims is Hani Hanjour. Here's one comment:

Alleged flight 77 (Pentagon) pilot Hani Hanjour had a history of great difficulties in his efforts to learn to fly. As late as Aug. 2001, he was unable to demonstrate enough piloting skills to rent a Cessna 172...

Certainly there is no evidence that Hanjour ever had any sort of practice flying commercial jetliners or any jet-propelled aircraft.
http://www.911-strike.com/remote_skills.htm

The site quotes this NewsDay article:

...when Baxter and fellow instructor Ben Conner took the slender, soft-spoken Hanjour on three test runs during the second week of August, they found he had trouble controlling and landing the single-engine Cessna 172. Even though Hanjour showed a federal pilot's license and a log book cataloging 600 hours of flying experience, chief flight instructor Marcel Bernard declined to rent him a plane without more lessons.
http://www.newsday.com/ny-usflight232380680sep23.story

Even the 9/11 Commission Report joins in:

For his flight training in Arizona with his two friends, see ibid. (Feb. 24, 2000, entry citing 265A-NY-280530-IN, serial 4468). Hanjour initially was nervous if not fearful in flight training. FBI letterhead memorandum, investigation of Lotfi Raissi, Jan. 4, 2004, p. 11. His instructor described him as a terrible pilot. FBI letterhead memorandum, interview of James McRae, Sept. 17, 2001.
http://www.faqs.org/docs/911/911Report-537.html

Read these quotes alone, though, and you might be mislead. The first seems to suggest that he hadn't learned to fly by August 2001, however he'd actually obtained both a private pilot and commercial license some time earlier.

In 1996, Hanjour returned to the United States to pursue flight training,after being rejected by a Saudi flight school. He checked out flight schools in Florida, California, and Arizona; and he briefly started at a couple of them before returning to Saudi Arabia. In 1997, he returned to Florida and then, along with two friends, went back to Arizona and began his flight training there in earnest. After about three months, Hanjour was able to obtain his private pilot's license. Several more months of training yielded him a commercial pilot certificate, issued by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) in April 1999.
http://www.faqs.org/docs/911/911Report-242.html
http://www.faqs.org/docs/911/911Report-243.html

Settling in Mesa, Hanjour began refresher training at his old school,Arizona Aviation. He wanted to train on multi-engine planes, but had difficulties because his English was not good enough.The instructor advised him to discontinue but Hanjour said he could not go home without completing the training. In early 2001, he started training on a Boeing 737 simulator at Pan Am International Flight Academy in Mesa.An instructor there found his work well below standard and discouraged him from continuing.Again, Hanjour persevered; he completed the initial training by the end of March 2001.
http://www.faqs.org/docs/911/911Report-243.html
http://www.faqs.org/docs/911/911Report-244.html

Hanjour continued his training with Jarrah throughout at least some of the summer. Again, there were problems in both cases, but they persisted.

Jarrah and Hanjour also received additional training and practice flights in the early summer.A few days before departing on his cross-country test flight, Jarrah flew from Fort Lauderdale to Philadelphia, where he trained at Hortman Aviation and asked to fly the Hudson Corridor, a low-altitude "hallway" along the Hudson River that passes New York landmarks like the World Trade Center. Heavy traffic in the area can make the corridor a dangerous route for an inexperienced pilot. Because Hortman deemed Jarrah unfit to fly solo, he could fly this route only with an instructor.

Hanjour, too, requested to fly the Hudson Corridor about this same time,at Air Fleet Training Systems in Teterboro, New Jersey, where he started receiving ground instruction soon after settling in the area with Hazmi. Hanjour flew the Hudson Corridor, but his instructor declined a second request because of what he considered Hanjour's poor piloting skills. Shortly thereafter, Hanjour switched to Caldwell Flight Academy in Fairfield, New Jersey, where he rented small aircraft on several occasions during June and July. In one such instance on July 20, Hanjour--likely accompanied by Hazmi--rented a plane from Caldwell and took a practice flight from Fairfield to Gaithersburg, Maryland, a route that would have allowed them to fly near Washington, D.C. Other evidence suggests that Hanjour may even have returned to Arizona for flight simulator training earlier in June.
http://www.faqs.org/docs/911/911Report-259.html

Even Hanjour wasn't exactly a "flight school dropout", then. He had a private and commercial pilots licence, and a not insignificant amount of flying experience, including some simulator work (although on 737's). There are definitely plenty of scathing quotes regarding his skills:

Chevrette said she contacted Anthony again when Hanjour began ground training for Boeing 737 jetliners and it became clear he didn't have the skills for the commercial pilot's license.

"I don't truly believe he should have had it and I questioned that," she said.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/05/10/attack/main508656.shtml

However, an early instructor isn't quite so damning:

FBI agents have questioned and administered a lie detector test to one of Hanjour's instructors in Arizona who was an Arab American and had signed off on Hanjour's flight instruction credentials before he got his pilot's license.
That instructor said he told agents that Hanjour was "a very average pilot, maybe struggling a little bit." The instructor added, "Maybe his English wasn't very good."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/05/10/attack/main508656.shtml

And as Marcel Bernard pointed out, the hijackers wouldn't have required all the skills of a regular pilot:

"Despite Hanjour's poor reviews, he did have some ability as a pilot, said Bernard of Freeway Airport. "There's no doubt in my mind that once that got going, he could have pointed that plane at a building and hit it," he said"
http://www.pentagonresearch.com/Newsday_com.htm

People will still say that the Pentagon attack was too difficult for Hanjour to have pulled off, and we don't know whether that is true or not (and don’t have any personal experience to add anything new to that debate). However, what we can say is that the portrayal of all the hijackers as "flight school dropouts" is misleading: they had considerably more flying experience than some people want you to believe.

[LARED]

6. Thank you (n/t)

[greyl]

7. thank You.

I've read your work here. ;)

[mirandapriestly]

11. You are USING THE COMMISSION REPORT

Were you trying to disprove what I said? Not very convincing.

[stickdog]

13. If he had learned even the basics, he would have known enough

not to even attempt what he supposedly did.

[petgoat]

15. So what's your point? That a simultaneous 270 degree turn

and 7000 foot descent is easy? That Hani was not an incompetent pilot? Both?

He failed on three tries to qualify to rent a Cessna at the Freeway Airport in MD
just weeks before 9/11.

(Of course Paul Thompson has showed us the securicam pictures from Dulles that show
that Hani wasn't on flight 77 at all.)

[Old and In the Way]

10. I'm amazed at Hanjour's ability to make a 7000', 270 degree drop

in the 757 without destroying the airframe in mid-air.....at cruising speed. That's pretty impressive flying skills.

[mirandapriestly]

12. yup.nt