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babsbunny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 04:05 PM
Original message
Questioning What Happened On 911
I know this is already posted, but this is on the MSNBC.com front page! My dreams are coming true!!!! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10053445/
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texpatriot2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
1. Wow. Quick. K & R nt
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 04:13 PM
Response to Original message
2. Tucker Carlson?....
sounds like a new coat of white-wash to me....but, i'll dream along with you...stranger things have happened.
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babsbunny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Oh yeah
White Wash. Well it was nice while it lasted.
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acmejack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
3. He dissed the professor there!
We all knew John Stewart was correct but he didn't give the guy a chance to do the experiment (or talk very much either). Tucker, you are still a dick.
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Tamarin Donating Member (337 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Carlson spent the whole segment trying to get rid
of this man. He was clearly not interested in what was being said.
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AwakeAtLast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #8
35. Didn't want to touch it with a ten foot pole!
Nice investigative skills he has there! :sarcasm:
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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
5. Well, it's about time!
Think of all the grief we would have been spared if this had come out a few years ago! The criminals in the White House now would be in jail instead!
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musette_sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. all anyone has to do
is (1) follow the money and (2) determine who had motive based on (1).
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
6. "Muslims are probably not to blame for bringing down World Trade Center"
n/t

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Sperk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
7. I couldn't get the video to play so I read the transcript...That was the
lamest excuse for an interview I have ever seen (read). Nothing like having someone on with an explosive hypothesis (pun intended) and NOT let them explain it. Jesus, it clearly is an excuse to "get on top of the story" to discredit it.

"I don't have time for experiments" Why Tucker....you have to get back to the Holloway story....

Jesus Christ Almighty....Tucker should be put in the hall of shame for that one.

They are petrified at the very idea of getting to the truth.
Great Americans.

:puke:
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jarnocan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. weird- makes you wonder
Why did he have him on? Were they hoping this would nip this specualtion/research in the bud????
This guy sure seems calm and professional- and Bringham Young U. is hardly a hot bed of radical theorist.
Once again the reality based scientific community may become a nusiance to the BU**SH**Inc.
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DemInDistress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
10. tucker--a lot of people are offended...lol
I was offended fucker carlson didn't show the collapse of WT-7.One can
clearly see,"whiffs,squibs,puffs" of black smoke emanating from the corner of the building in a line from the 47th floor down to the 40th
floor.Controlled demolition I say.
As a matter of FACT larry silverstein says,"I decided to PULL the building" on tape.Why wasn't silverstein called into the 911 commission hearings.Why wasn't the Manhattan DA's office involved? If
I said I PULLED my building I bet I'd be investigated thoroughly and
then arrested,charged,indicted and found guilty....
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Sven77 Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
11. i got the video from the conspiracy central forum
Edited on Tue Nov-15-05 04:45 PM by Sven77
funny how tucker carlson wouldnt play the wtc7 video, you can watch it here.
Videos Show Building 7's Vertical Collapse
http://www.wtc7.net/videos.html
3rd video labeled - video broadcast on CBS is the best.
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
12. Rate it up. n/t
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Catamount Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. Done!
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
13. No plane hit WTC-7, but Mandrake the Magician must have brought it down
The power of asking simple questions. I can't wait for the 'debunking'. I hear they've already lined up Gerald Posner (sarcasm).
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tinrobot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. OK, since you're the expert...
It takes a lot of work to rig a building for a controlled demolition.

Tell me exactly how someone managed to plant all those explosives and miles of wire throughout the building without ever being detected.

Why would someone rig the bulding to explode in the first place?
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Weekends and 'maintenance', exactly. BTW, weren't terrorists
seen 'casing' buildings in NYC and NJ and subsequently arrested for taking pictures of same ? Gee, it would have been easier to have accress to the blueprints.

BTW, ever hear about the wargames on 9-11-01 ? The media doesn't talk about that or the Ptech tie-in. You know, the Saudi software company with FAA and Intelligence agency access.

Familiarize yourself with Occam's razor.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-05 03:48 AM
Response to Reply #23
37. WTC Blueprints
According to Peter Lance, an associate of the Blind Sheikh got the blueprints of the WTC in 1990.

http://www.peterlance.com/terror_link_nydn_090403.htm
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jarnocan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
14. WOW!
This backs up what many others have been saying apparently from a different source.
Did you notice his comment that most professors now agree the fires from the plane fuel should not have been enough to melt the steel-produce the molton metal found in the basement?
If that's true than..... What next.
So much as happening on so many fronts, I can't beleive it is taking some people so long to get a reality check.
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Boxerfan Donating Member (710 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
16. HALLELUYAH!!!
I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope
I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope
I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope
I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope
I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope
I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope
I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope
I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope
I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope I Hope


...Hope springs eternal where there is TRUTH!

And of all people Tucker Carlson???
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babsbunny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. What if we all e-mail Tucker and Thank Him for at least
bringing the subject up?
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SittingBull Donating Member (398 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. Done!

tucker@msnbc.com


Can you explain me

why you don't show the fall of WTC7?

Are you feared? Or just impotent to do so in your show?

Sorry. It's only worth a big laugh.

Kudos to Prof. Jones for asking overdue questions.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
19. Carlson is questioning the patriotism of the professor, basically saying
he is giving aid and comfort to evil Muslims. Excerpt:


CARLSON: I'm sure your writings greeted with just glee in Islamabad, and Peshawar and places like that. But for Americans.

JONES: Well, I haven't received notes from there, but just good people. I have Muslim friends. Let me read, for example, but I'm not going to let you off the hook. I really want to do this experiment with you.

CARLSON: We don't have a lot of time for experiments, Professor. But if you could just ... give us one thing to hold onto. How-you make these claims, or appear to make these claims ...

JONES: Tucker, sure, sure. Let's start with the collapse of Building seven. Can you roll the video clip that I sent to you?


but of course they didn't show the video.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
20. Here's the other thread on this interview - links to video & prof's paper:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x59735
thread title (11/15): MSNBC : Did planes really bring down the World Trade Center?

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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. READ THE AFTERWARD IN THE PROF'S PAPER:
Link to paper in the OP of the other thread, cited in my previous post.


AFTERWARD


In writing this paper, I call for a serious investigation of the hypothesis that WTC7 and the Twin Towers were brought down, not just by damage and fires, but through the carefully planned use of explosives. I have presented ample evidence for the explosive-demolition hypothesis, which is testable and falsifiable and yet has not been seriously considered in any of the studies funded by the US government.

At the same time, I acknowledge that other notions have sprung up in the near vacuum of official consideration of this very plausible hypothesis. These notions must be subjected to careful scrutiny. I by no means endorse all such ideas. For example, the video “In Plane Site” promotes the theory that a “pod” holds a missile under the wing of the 757 which hit WTC 2 (see Hoffman, 2005; Chertoff, 2005). Careful inspection of the undercarriage of a standard 757 leads to the explanation that the so-called “pod” was merely a reflection from the bulged undercarriage (Hoffman, 2005; Chertoff, 2005). I find that the “pod theory” is very weak and distracts from central issues.

Again, there is a notion that something other than Boeing jetliners hit the WTC Towers (see Hoffman, 2005; Chertoff, 2005). Scrutiny of photographs and videos provides compelling evidence that jets did in fact hit these buildings (Hoffman, 2005; Chertoff, 2005). A March 2005 article in Popular Mechanics focuses on poorly-supported claims and proceeds to ridicule the whole “9-11 truth movement” (Chertoff, 2005). Serious replies to this article have already been written (Hoffman, 2005; Baker, 2005; serendipity.li/wot/pop_mech/reply_to_popular_mechanics.htm).

Those espousing weak or untestable claims should realize that they may be damaging the effort to achieve a rational debate of important issues by poisoning the process with “junk science”. Likewise, the notion that the “explosive demolition” hypothesis should not be debated since it would imply a “conspiracy theory” departs from good science as well as from numerous historical precedents of empirical conspiracies (Jones, 2005). Scientific inquiry is not or should not be dictated by politics (Mooney, 2005).

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Freedomfried Donating Member (684 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
24. It was not explosives, hell no there were no explosives!
Edited on Tue Nov-15-05 06:16 PM by Freedomfried
Thermite devices, thermite will melt thru rocks,steel would of melted like butter, the fire was nothing more than camouflage for the use of these high temp incendiary devices.

Thats a physics professor from a leading American university you are talking to "Tucker", shut up and listen to the man.
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babsbunny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Don't say never
especially with this administration!
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Freedomfried Donating Member (684 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. You're right about that.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
27. It's a wonder Carlson didn't pooh hoo what the Physics professor
was saying as old wives' tales, a matter of interpretation. What could metallurgists possibly know about the melting points of metals that we don't know! A physics professor about distinctive features of controlled explosions!
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chat_noir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
28. CHERTOFF!! Department of Homeland Security
At the same time, I acknowledge that other notions have sprung up in the near vacuum of official consideration of this very plausible hypothesis. These notions must be subjected to careful scrutiny. I by no means endorse all such ideas. For example, the video “In Plane Site” promotes the theory that a “pod” holds a missile under the wing of the 757 which hit WTC 2 (see Hoffman, 2005; Chertoff, 2005). Careful inspection of the undercarriage of a standard 757 leads to the explanation that the so-called “pod” was merely a reflection from the bulged undercarriage (Hoffman, 2005; Chertoff, 2005). I find that the “pod theory” is very weak and distracts from central issues.

Again, there is a notion that something other than Boeing jetliners hit the WTC Towers (see Hoffman, 2005; Chertoff, 2005). Scrutiny of photographs and videos provides compelling evidence that jets did in fact hit these buildings (Hoffman, 2005; Chertoff, 2005). A March 2005 article in Popular Mechanics focuses on poorly-supported claims and proceeds to ridicule the whole “9-11 truth movement” (Chertoff, 2005). Serious replies to this article have already been written (Hoffman, 2005; Baker, 2005; serendipity.li/wot/pop_mech/reply_to_popular_mechanics.htm).


On February 15, 2005 Michael Chertoff was sworn in as the second Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security.

I'm sure he's a trustworthy source. :sarcasm:
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Boxerfan Donating Member (710 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. That has been one of the biggest obstacles
To making a cohesive analysis of this event using only the available footage & testimony. Reason is most of the information is tainted by whatever agenda the person who gathered it has & some of it is obvious dis-information.

I agree the "pod" & flash theory are in that camp but-who really knows?. I'm just using a lifetime of mechanical experience & intuition to make my analysis. If Democrats had subpoena power it would still take years to get a glimpse of what really happened. Too many will cover their ass to the end as the stakes are so high.

Physical analysis & science will lead us here. I am doubtfully any testimony will emerge from involved parties. I someone had a cr parked in the area & it was hit by the dust cloud-There is important physical evidence still there I guarantee you, it's just a matter of finding it. There have been verified reports of "trophies" taken by workers at ground zero. Those objects should yield valuable clues if properly analyzed & not too contaminated. There is a dearth of real,available science that needs to be done now. Without direction or funding that will never happen I'm afraid...At least till we get the majorities of House & Senate. Even then I'm afraid they will ignore such as quest as "too damaging" or some other nonsense.

I still will gather & disseminate the truth about 9/11. There is always a chance the right person will learn something or someone will have a deathbed confession.
I can always hope!
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oxbow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
31. write MSNBC and chastise them for this sub-par interview
Edited on Tue Nov-15-05 09:02 PM by oxbow
feedback@msnbc.com

this interview was the lamest, most inane thing I have ever seen. Tucker made a complete jackass out of himself and avoided the issue altogether. We shouldn't let this slide. This is how they try and discredit stories like this. 2 minutes of him throwing up smoke and mirrors and then Tucker says, "I don't understand your theories."?!? No shit, sherlock!
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Awsi Dooger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
32. This is the last thing we need
Everything has been imploding our way and now we're masochistically desperate to draw attention away from that and toward more conspiratorial lunacy? Has anyone ever been to Ground Zero? That area is remarkably tight. You're talking about massive planes making impact at 70 stories or higher. It's the same basic dynamic as hurricanes having much greater power at high elevation than ground level. More people might have been killed if the planes had hit lower, trapping people hopeless in floors above the impact assuming they would have also collapsed upon slightly lower impact. But as far as damage to surrounding structures the higher impact was the worst scenario. I've seen several engineering experts make that case on TV and print.
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. Yup, and it's LOSE if right, LOSE if wrong prospect.
Even if we found an unexploded bomb, intact, with fingerprints, it would only leave people with a feeling of CONTROVERSY. Was so-in-so paid handsomely to plant it, does he sympathize, had he/they other reasons to destroy WTC. Rumors could outnumber imaginations.

That is the best this idea has to offer us.

At worst, it is investigated at huge cost, and nothing is found because nothing was there. The certain could continue forever and ever. Sadly, forever, looking more foolish each time each day.

It's LOSE LOSE.

Some things, right as they are, aren't worth knowing.
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Independent_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
33. Kicking for the truth!
Take me to Funky Town!

:)
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
34. Here is an article on Professor Jones with a link to his report

----- Original Message -----
From: Global Network
To: Global Network
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 10:28 AM
Subject: Physics professor: bombs, not planes, toppled WTC


Deseret Morning News, Thursday, November 10, 2005

Y. professor thinks bombs, not planes, toppled WTC

By Elaine Jarvik
Deseret Morning News

The physics of 9/11 — including how fast and symmetrically one of the World Trade Center buildings fell — prove that official explanations of the collapses are wrong, says a Brigham Young University physics professor.


In fact, it's likely that there were "pre-positioned explosives" in all three buildings at ground zero, says Steven E. Jones.


In a paper posted online Tuesday and accepted for peer-reviewed publication next year, Jones adds his voice to those of previous skeptics, including the authors of the Web site www.wtc7.net, whose research Jones quotes. Jones' article can be found at www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html.

"It is quite plausible that explosives were pre-planted in all three (WTC) buildings," BYU physics professor Steven E. Jones says.

Stuart Johnson, Deseret Morning News

Jones, who conducts research in fusion and solar energy at BYU, is calling for an independent, international scientific investigation "guided not by politicized notions and constraints but rather by observations and calculations.


"It is quite plausible that explosives were pre-planted in all three buildings and set off after the two plane crashes — which were actually a diversion tactic," he writes. "Muslims are (probably) not to blame for bringing down the WTC buildings after all," Jones writes.


As for speculation about who might have planted the explosives, Jones said, "I don't usually go there. There's no point in doing that until we do the scientific investigation."


Previous investigations, including those of FEMA, the 9/11 Commission and NIST (the National Institutes of Standards and Technology), ignore the physics and chemistry of what happened on Sept. 11, 2001, to the Twin Towers and the 47-story building known as WTC 7, he says. The official explanation — that fires caused structural damage that caused the buildings to collapse — can't be backed up by either testing or history, he says.


Jones acknowledges that there have been "junk science" conspiracy theories about what happened on 9/11, but "the explosive demolition hypothesis better satisfies tests of repeatability and parsimony and therefore is not 'junk science.' "


In a 9,000-word article that Jones says will be published in the book "The Hidden History of 9/11," by Elsevier, Jones offers these arguments:


• The three buildings collapsed nearly symmetrically, falling down into their footprints, a phenomenon associated with "controlled demolition" — and even then it's very difficult, he says. "Why would terrorists undertake straight-down collapses of WTC-7 and the Towers when 'toppling over' falls would require much less work and would do much more damage in downtown Manhattan?" Jones asks. "And where would they obtain the necessary skills and access to the buildings for a symmetrical implosion anyway? The 'symmetry data' emphasized here, along with other data, provide strong evidence for an 'inside' job."


• No steel-frame building, before or after the WTC buildings, has ever collapsed due to fire. But explosives can effectively sever steel columns, he says.


• WTC 7, which was not hit by hijacked planes, collapsed in 6.6 seconds, just .6 of a second longer than it would take an object dropped from the roof to hit the ground. "Where is the delay that must be expected due to conservation of momentum, one of the foundational laws of physics?" he asks. "That is, as upper-falling floors strike lower floors — and intact steel support columns — the fall must be significantly impeded by the impacted mass. . . . How do the upper floors fall so quickly, then, and still conserve momentum in the collapsing buildings?" The paradox, he says, "is easily resolved by the explosive demolition hypothesis, whereby explosives quickly removed lower-floor material, including steel support columns, and allow near free-fall-speed collapses." These observations were not analyzed by FEMA, NIST nor the 9/11 Commission, he says.


• With non-explosive-caused collapse there would typically be a piling up of shattering concrete. But most of the material in the towers was converted to flour-like powder while the buildings were falling, he says. "How can we understand this strange behavior, without explosives? Remarkable, amazing — and demanding scrutiny since the U.S. government-funded reports failed to analyze this phenomenon."


• Horizontal puffs of smoke, known as squibs, were observed proceeding up the side the building, a phenomenon common when pre-positioned explosives are used to demolish buildings, he says.


• Steel supports were "partly evaporated," but it would require temperatures near 5,000 degrees Fahrenheit to evaporate steel — and neither office materials nor diesel fuel can generate temperatures that hot. Fires caused by jet fuel from the hijacked planes lasted at most a few minutes, and office material fires would burn out within about 20 minutes in any given location, he says.


• Molten metal found in the debris of the World Trade Center may have been the result of a high-temperature reaction of a commonly used explosive such as thermite, he says. Buildings not felled by explosives "have insufficient directed energy to result in melting of large quantities of metal," Jones says.


• Multiple loud explosions in rapid sequence were reported by numerous observers in and near the towers, and these explosions occurred far below the region where the planes struck, he says.


Jones says he became interested in the physics of the WTC collapse after attending a talk last spring given by a woman who had had a near-death experience. The woman mentioned in passing that "if you think the World Trade Center buildings came down just due to fire, you have a lot of surprises ahead of you," Jones remembers, at which point "everyone around me started applauding."


Following several months of study, he presented his findings at a talk at BYU in September.


Jones says he would like the government to release 6,899 photographs and 6,977 segments of video footage for "independent scrutiny." He would also like to analyze a small sample of the molten metal found at Ground Zero.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


E-mail: jarvik@desnews.com



Global Network Against Weapons & Nuclear Power in Space
PO Box 652
Brunswick, ME 04011
(207) 729-0517
(207) 319-2017 (Cell phone)
globalnet@mindspring.com
http://www.space4peace.org
http://space4peace.blogspot.com (Our blog)
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MrSammo1 Donating Member (788 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-05 04:20 AM
Response to Original message
38. Nice of them
to leave out the video clip of Building 7 collapsing.

I knew there was no way the government controlled media would let the public see it again.

Tucker was sweating bullets! You could actually tell that he knows the truth.

I guess they couldn't get Gerald (I'll lie for the government) Posner on short notice?

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