How many believe the US planted explosives in the World Trade Center ?

[RadiDem]

Which group are you in ?

I'm a 3.




David Ray Griffin asks the tough questions about Sept. 11, contending U.S. officials had some knowledge of what was coming and possibly orchestrated the attacks.

Americans interpret the events of Sept. 11 in one of four ways, Griffin said:

• A first group accepts the official interpretation that Sept. 11 was a surprise attack by Islamic terrorists. It is easy for these people "to think of America's so-called War on Terror as a just war," Griffin said.

• A second group accepts the official line but thinks Sept. 11 has been used opportunistically by the Bush administration to extend the American empire. People who hold this view often believe that America's response to Sept. 11, which has led to hundreds of thousands of deaths, is far worse than the attacks themselves, he said.

• A third group believes the Bush administration knew the attacks were coming and let them happen. It shows the government as "deliberate and cold-blooded," advancing its imperial designs while hypocritically portraying itself as promoting a "culture of life," Griffin said.

Although there has been no national survey, a Zogby poll taken last year indicated that almost half of the residents of New York City share this view, he said.

• A fourth group believes that the government orchestrated the attacks. While no poll shows how many Americans believe this, polls in Canada and Germany have found as many as 20 percent of those populations do, Griffin said. Griffin also made a case that the collapse of the World Trade Center buildings was brought on by thousands of explosives placed throughout each of the buildings. They went straight down, at free-fall speed, as in controlled demolitions, and many people in the buildings reported that they heard or felt explosions, he added.

http://www.madison.com/tct/news/stories/index.php?ntid=36617&ntpid=3

[Les BOOGIE]

1. I'm a 3.3 n/t

[Extend a Hand]

2. 3 or 4

At this point I really don't know...I think there is enough evidence to rule out 1 or 2 as real possibilities. But not enough evidence to be sure whether the government was actively involved. With this evil crew I wouldn't rule out group 4.

[RC]

3. #4. It takes time to rig a building for demolition. And don't forget

WTC 7. Why did it come down? A steel & mortar building.

[rzemanfl]

4. I'm a 2.8. I think they knew something was coming but didn't

think it would be as big as it was.

[Wilms]

5. 3/4 n/t

[Jacobin]

6. Not this again..........

:eyes:

something like 40% of Murkins believe we never landed on the moon.

Over half of voting Murkins voted for George Fucking Bush.

Why do you use polls to try to deny the physics of a 300,000 plus pound jet traveling at 500 mph full of tons of fuel smashing into a 110 story building that sways in the fucking wind, and try to claim that it couldn't have fallen down?

Nevermind

[rman]

10. Nothing wrong with swaying in the fucking wind,

tall buildings are supposed to do that.
The towers were anything but flimsy, steel starts losing strength only near melting temperature, and fires just don't get that hot.
Also the pan-cake collapse theory entirely ignores the presence of the "core" of the towers; the main load bearing structure.
Why would you try to deny the physics of that?

[hack89]

14. You are wrong about the fires

Steel loses 60 percent of its strength at 550 degrees C. Common house fires easily reach 1000 degrees C. Google fire resistance, building codes and melting properties of steel.

[demodewd]

16. Right.

Steel also has a high conductivity of heat and with the 47 columns acting like a radiator. And it all falls down at very near free fall rate in symetrical fashion. Right.

[hack89]

22. How would you expect it to fall?

Why wouldn't it fall at a near free fall rate? If that is faster than expected, what would provide a downward force to accelerate the collapse? I thought the theory behind controlled demolition is that the explosive sever the supports and gravity does the work of bringing the building down.

As for the fire: The jet fuel burned off within minutes, leaving a regular building fire.

Read this excellent report by the Canadian research council on the role of fire resistance in the WTC http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/fulltext/nrcc42466/nrcc42466 ....

According to this web site for forensic fire investigators http://www.tcforensic.com.au/docs/article10.html#1.3

steel loses 50% of its structural strength and sags at 550°C (1022°F) while smoldering combustion in a regular house fire can reach 600°C (1112°F)

This Canadian site http://www.cwc.ca/design/fire / says
"Steel, for instance, quickly loses its strength when heated and its yield point decreases significantly as it absorbs heat, endangering the stability of the structure (Graph 1). An unprotected, conventional steel joist system will fail in less than 10 minutes under standard laboratory fire exposure test methods"

[petgoat]

47. Why wouldn't it fall at a near free fall rate?

Because the core was built to take the entire weight of the building,
and was overbuilt with a safety factor of five.

Freefall means the building was cut off at the knees when the shoulders
were falling. You expect some resistance from the lower structure.

[vincent_vega_lives]

19. I believe it is more like 20% of Americans

who believe we never landed on the moon.

[wyldwolf]

7. seventhson?

[Gatchaman]

8. I'm a 2 and a half

They knew it could very well happen, didn't expect it to be as bold as it was (arrogance raising it's ugly head) and thought it would be a perfect way to stage a huge power grab and to start the war and empire building the neoconservative movement has lusted after.

[buckup]

9. Number Four is absurd...

"They wen straight down, at free-fall speed."

That's what happens when the top of the building becomes almost completely severed from the rest of the building. Der! I saw it on TV. It's physics.

"Many people in the building reported that they heard or felt explosions?"

Give me a break. When a building as massive as that starts melting and collapsing, you're going to feel things crack dramatically and shake.

(Then again, I live in California. I barely bat an eyelid when buildings shake.)


Completely absurd.

[rman]

11. the fires could not have cause the building to melt

try melting a piece of steel in a fire.

[hack89]

15. The steel didn't melt

Steel weakens and sags at temperatures approx half of its melting temperature - 550 degrees C vs 1200 degrees C. A temperature that would significantly weaken the steel in the WTC was easily reached with all the combustibles in all those offices. This steel melting BS is a straw man.

[vincent_vega_lives]

20. Brilliant deduction rman

Nope that steel didn't loose any of it's strength did it?



And that fire was extinguished rather quickly.

[Make7]

28. You can't just show the after pictures.

You have to show the before pictures too - so we can tell that it wasn't like that before the fire occurred.

:rofl: Make7

[petgoat]

48. Nice Picture, Vince

However, NIST has NO core steel samples showing heating above 250 degrees C.

[FreedomAngel82]

38. There is proof of the explosion hearing

There's a video on Kazaa you can download and it's of a CBS program that was supposed to air but never did. It was supposed to be of firefighters
but the camera crew was there on 9/11 and captured it. It shows three/four guys talking about their experience in the WTC tower and talking about bombs going off. Also check this video out: http://reopen911.org/video/collapse.mov It talks about bombs going off.

[demodewd]

12. Without a doubt.4.

4. You want it done right,you do it yourself.

[tinanator]

13. when it absolutely, positively has to be fascism by morning

yup

[ocean girl]

17. I'm a solid 4

no doubt in my mind.

[spooked911]

18. 4 all the way.

It takes a while to get that realization, but once you do, it is very clear that the government had to have done it.

[samilib]

21. I'm in the second group.

I do not believe that Bush allowed or planned for the WTC to be attacked (which hurt our economy) and then went into wars for economical interests. If this is about the economy, then I have a hard time believing Bush knew or did it.

I do believe he took full advantage of the attacks and started wars for economical reasons.

I could be wrong.

[demodewd]

24. the elitists don't care about us(not really)

The Bush administration knew it had to provide an economic stimulus in the long run to keep Wall Street and the globalist economy going. It's solution is a war time economy. If you subtract the added investments in the DOD,the Department of Homeland Security,Intelligence and Iraq where would we be?

911 mentally prepared the public to accept the preemptive strike doctrine and huge outlays for the military. Bear in mind the three major business interests of Republicans in particular. Oil. Military. Pharmaceuticals. They,the elitists, don't care about the general well being of the American republic. A slouch in the stock market may do the elitists very well,especially if they actually were directly responsible for it and placed their bets(stock options) accordingly.

[FreedomAngel82]

39. If you haven't

read PNAC's plans.

[MadAsHellNewYorker]

23. 4 for me! n/t

[mirandapriestly]

59. Delete

I thought this was a new thread, how embarrassing

[Christophera]

63. Why Is New Better?

Consider that the "new is better" notion was hatched by media so that "important" could always be replaced.

No way you should be embarassed. You should be proud of yourself for you impulse to post in a thread about the most important aspect of 9-11.

I'm proud of going 10 pages back and finding it and giving it a little attention, a wilting producer of nourishing product from the garden of truth.

The evidence that shows us explosions at the WTC is really the only evidence we have that can justify other Americans participating in a democratic push for truth, and that is what we NEED them to do.

[canadianbeaver]

25. I agree with 3 and 4.....mostly 4.......

power corrupts absolutely

[meppie-meppie not]

26. definitely a 3 and seriously hedging toward 4. n/t

edited for clarity

[mikelewis]

27. #4 -

[Broken Acorn]

29. 4

There is no doubt in my mind as more evidence is release that this thing was an inside job from the beginning.

Too many coincidences.

The best military in the World could only scramble 3 or 4 fighter jets up in the air AFTER the first tower was hit. Wtf?

The Carlye Group and Bin Laden's were meeting in NYC the morning of 9/11. Was this to sign a new deal with the Saudi's once Carlye delivered it's payment (9/11 attacks)?

Bin Laden's flown safely out of the country on 9/12 eventhough all commercial and private jets were grounded?

I can go on and on, but unfortunately too many Americans it seems are afraid to open their eyes and ears to the truth.

[musette_sf]

30. 4 for me too

When a crime is committed, look at who stands to gain the most.

So far, Bu$hCo, the Carlyle Group, and the rest of the military-industrial complex are who have profited the most.

:patriot:

[Christophera]

31. A Fifth Group Realizes That The Government Couldn't Have

A Fifth Group realizes that the government couldn't have done this because it is of and for the people, it was done by imposter infiltrators.

The Fifth Group realize that government has been infiltrated and taken over and very bad things are being done under auspices of true authority by frauds, imposters and criminals.

Uh, in this grouping thing ............ well we might not be able to agree on what true authority is because the discussion becomes necessarily highly philosophical and many feel that philosophies don't matter. Law is philosophical in its origins and law is what determines true authority.

Everybody with me despite the above?

This is all very ideal. Definitely not the way things are, but, as long as we do not loose sight of the ideal, things COULD be this way.

Okay, (I hope) ...... this group realizes that there was collusion between a number of groups of infiltrators of goverment and corporate areas for wildly distorted reasons that set up 9-11. Very, very few people, infiltrators, let alone groups of infiltrators, know enough to identify the processes or actors. Some individuals/groups operate from government offices and others from corporate offices.

That fifth group of truth seekers understands, as does the forth, that thousands of separate explosions were required to get the effect seen and that the explosives had optimum placement and distribution in order to pulverize everything but heavy steel. They understand that this was also the only way free fall into the footprint can be attained by structures. They understand that only governmental type access to the building during construction would be adequate to install 14 tons (min.) with the needed placement and distribution into a skyscraper under the public conditions present thereafter being the reason that government is largely blamed.

Government is simply a contrived set of programs by people to create a uniform assitence to themselves. Get down, ........... people did this, not some fake structure we happen to have inherited and are too fractured to change. These are behaviors not structures of mandatory performance that failed. We failed to make government accountable and we've been failing for a long time. Since about 30 years after the civil war.

Any institution, official or unoffical, occupied with humans can be infiltrated. Only keen awareness and security against the methods of infiltration are a valid protection at any time.

[reprehensor]

54. Do you subscribe to the Dave Emory school of infiltration?

http://www.wfmu.org/playlists/DX

[Ice4Clark]

32. After watching Griffin this weekend, I started googling for

info on 911. I don't know why I hadn't before, except I was so wrapped up in the primaries and the election I guess. Anyway, I've downloaded some very good videos about 911, some following the lines of Griffins talk. I got to say, after watching hours of vids, I'm now in the #4 group. I didn't realize no reckage had been found at the pentagon, hadn't seen the photos of engines in NY either. My spouse was an A&P mechanic and I showed him the pics and he says they are NOT from a 767 aircraft. He now is also in the #4 group after watching these videos and listening to Griffin. So, how do we get this story some legs? How do we expose these vial folks who orchestrated this?

[Make7]

41. Who made the engine found in NY? What model is it? eom.

[KoKo]

33. I have a problem with the "explosives" but I'm glad to see the question

asked. Because...it really is too weird to believe that both twin towers would come down like that just because planes crashed into their "upper floors."

Something is not answered here. And, when John O'Neil is not alive to talk about what the CIA was involved with there, and one of the Bushie brothers (Marvin) was head of WTC Security...one just has to wonder about all this.

Until there's an answer, there is the right to ask...that's my humble opinion. :shrug:

[Christophera]

44. Basic GOOD LOGIC: More Americans Need To Stand Up For Common Sense.

It's like Americans forgot what high explosives looked like or gave up on common sense.

Posted by KoKo01

asked. Because...it really is too weird to believe that both twin towers would come down like that just because planes crashed into their "upper floors."

[mikita]

34. #4 for me ... n/t

[il_lilac]

35. closer to 4 every day

too many coincidences to be a coincidence?

[Dancing_Dave]

36. There were most certainly many explosives in the WTC

We have accounts from many witnesses of multiple explosives in the WTC which started going off around the time of the aircraft impacts, on each of the towers a timed series of impacts can be seen going off down the structures as the the whole building is demolished to a fine dust, hotter explosives in the sub-basements created thermal spikes, updrafts evident in pictures which resulted in mushroom shaped clouds above the towers, and ultimately these high temperature explosives left pools of molten metal steel deep below the WTC rubble for months...vaporization from the hottest explosive spots left condensed metal droplets on the surface of some of finest WTC dust...one could go on and on, all the physical evidence points in this direction.

But we need to get off vaguely saying "the US" or the "the Government" and specify particular guilty people. Moreover, the Bush Administration clearly had corporate partners in this, such as Larry Silverstein who made billions in insurance money off this scam!

[FreedomAngel82]

37. Group four

I think they planned it over time since the Bush I administration.

[earth mom]

40. 4. eom

[realFedUp]

42. I'm becoming a 4

Nothing anymore surprises me about how
far this group will go...even to dismantling
America.

[dbeach]

43. 4 or if there is another ..5

Karl B. Schwarz author of 'Send em back to Crawford" has been saying that the Caspian Sea Basin is a prime reason why the 9/11 attacks happened and connects 9//11 to the illegal wars in Afghanistan and Iraq...

9/11 was the ultimate inside job done by bush sr, cheney and the criminals to legitimize the illegal appointed presidency of occupant bush.

I think that the USA is trapped in a time warp from 11/22/63 when the first coup'detat was orchastrated..

[philb]

45. Firemen and survivors report basement explosion at WTC2 before

the tower "collapsed"

When the fire rescue team reached an area directly in front of Tower Two, Antonio said he'd take over the equipment cart Will had pushed from Building 5. ... The team moved ahead. Scant minutes passed. Suddenly the hallway began to shudder as a terrible deafening roar swept over them. That's when Will saw the giant fireball explode in the street.
Seconds later the team's entire world began to crumble. It was precisely 9:59 a.m. The Trade Center's South Tower had just collapsed. http://www.bowhunter.com/feature_articles/BN_FromTheRubble/


United Airlines Flight 175 struck the 78th through 84th floors of the south tower at almost 9:03 a.m., 16 1/2 minutes after a jet hit the north tower.
Brian Clark, executive vice president of Euro Brokers on the 84th floor, was standing against the west wall when the higher wing of the Boeing 767 hit his floor. "It felt like the building was going to fall," he recalls. Five Euro Brokers colleagues walked with Clark into the hall, turned left and entered Stairway A. Clark and co-worker Ronald DiFrancesco continued down. Clark heard banging from inside Fuji Bank's wrecked office. "Help! I'm buried! Can anybody help?" yelled Stanley Praimnath, a loan officer. Clark pulled him from the rubble and they walked down together.
As he left the building, saw a fireball rolling toward him. He put his arms in front of his face. He woke up three days later at St. Vincent's hospital. His arms were burned. Some bones were broken. His lungs were singed. But he was alive.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2001/12/19/usat-escape.htm

Also note: there are videos showing the basement explosions, and janitors and building engineers who've also confirmed them.

[Christophera]

50. Shame: What Are We Afraid Of?

Great links to the PAPD survivor accounts philb, I hadn't read those.

Reading about the bravery of those who survived, I wonder how much courage Americans have who can't even listen to facts about the WTC on 9-11, let alone speak them.

Thirty years ago I learned to be ashamed of my government, now I'm learning to be ashamed of my people.

[letalicata]

46. I'm a 4

I'm a 4. When I was a young adult I live in St. Louis, MO. I witnessed first hand a building being demolished. Of course it was controlled being downtown St. Louis.

On 9/11 as I was watching the towers crumble on TV, I commented that it looked like a controlled demolition. I still believe it to this day.

[pox americana]

49. #4, no question.

p.s. a pic is worth a thousand words..

[rman]

51. 4

[janedoe]

52. #4. Who else had the means, motive, and opportunity to commit this crime?

Yep. Pictures are worth thousands of words.

It couldn't even be a gravity collapse by controlled demolition. Gravity acts down, not up. Only significant explosives could blow a building up, in the opposite direction of gravitational forces.

It took a huge amount of energy to simultaneously pulverize the building AND blow it up in the "up" direction.

[Christophera]

55. Absolutely Massive: Lowest Estimate, 14 Tons of C4

I think there may have been twice that.

The placement and distribution required to efffect uniform pulverization/expansion and rapid fall of material as we see at the WTC, precludes outside terrorism surrepticiously working under threat of detection.

[i miss america]

53. #4 - For me, all doubt has been removed

The more you question the evidence and review the facts, the more obvious it becomes.

[HughBeaumont]

56. Was a 3, but now a solid FOUR.

Dubious Pre-9/11 events (like the massive puts on United, AA, Merril Lynch, MSDW, etc, Muslim community knowing about the attack, buildings being closed pre-attack, etc), Terror Timeline, New Pearl Harbor, a 9/11 commission stacked with Cheney/Big Oil cronies, the Pentagon and it's lack of video/photographic evidence, Bush's behavior, Flight 93 still a question mark, PNAC .. .

There are many many others, but what it comes down to is this: if you think corporations and the elite that run this country have ANY kind of conscience or soul that they wouldn't think of killing innocent citizens for political and especially financial gain or advancement of agenda, NOW who's being naive? These fuckers couldn't care less about us dryer lint and don't think for one second that they do. They don't even need our VOTES anymore - with rigged paper-trail-less machines and an apathetic public, they'll be fixing close elections for the next century.

[mirandapriestly]

61. Horrible, but true. nt

[petgoat]

57. Categories of Belief

You list three possible levels of complicity.

In his book, The New Pearl Harbor. Dr. Griffin lists seven possible
levels of complicity (least to greatest):

1. The attacks were a complete surprise, but there was a coverup of
facts embarassing to the officials or an exaggeration of certain
issues to help justify the political agenda following. Under this
category can go theories that flight 93 was shot down, that the WTC
towers were rigged for demolition in case of damage and were brought
down by officials because they were going to fall anyway, and the idea
that al Qaeda operatives planted explosives in the WTC towers to
facilitate their collapse.

2. Attacks were expected generally by US Intelligence but not the
White House; after 9/11 the official knowledge was covered up.

3, 4, 5. Intelligence had specific knowledge, or was in on planning,
or Pentagon was in on planning--but not in any case the White House.

6. The White House had specific knowledge it did not act upon, and
may have been shocked by the extent of the death and destruction.

7. White House involved in the planning.


http://vancouver.indymedia.org/news/2004/06/141355.php

Distinguishing between the activities of Intelligence and the
activities of the White House is important for a clear picture, IMHO.

I don't believe or disbelieve that explosives were used in the
collapse. The fact that most engineers at the time were surprised by
the collapse (as stated in NOVA), that Van Romero said it looked just
like a controlled demolition, and that NIST has no core steel samples
showing what they said happened all throw natural collapse theories
into doubt.

I think we need a new investigation by Eliot Spitzer.

[mirandapriestly]

58. One Of The first things I read after 9-11 is that floors of the WTC

were closed off several weeks prior to 9-11. Now, of course, I can't find the story anywhere, but it was someone who had worked at the WTC and knew these floors were closed off and that people were doing a lot of work there, I even think I recall that he stated that explosions were heard during this time.
Also an explosives expert from the New Mexico Mining Institute came out after 9-11 and said that it was a professional demolition and not the result of fire. Then, he went to Washington D.C and received several million dollars in grant money for something unrelated and he changed his tune.
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/timeline/2001/albuquerquejournal091101.html

[petgoat]

60. The guy's name was Scott Forbes, and apparently he used to post here

at DU.

A related story was that apparently a DMV clerk named Katherine Smith
was selling phony i.d.'s to muslims. One of them when arrested was
found to have a pass that gave him access to the six underground
levels of the One World Center building. Sakher 'Rocky' Hammad told
federal authorities that he was working on the sprinklers six days
before the twin towers were brought down by terrorists, court
testimony revealed this week.

Before Ms. Smith could be tried she was found in a burning wrecked
car. It was found that gasoline had been poured on her. The Medical
Examiner who worked on her case was kidnapped, bound in barbed wire,
and left in a parking lot with a bomb strapped to his chest.

The latest is that apparently the M.E. is being charged with faking
this attack.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/02/09/attack/

Curiouser'n curiouser.

[mirandapriestly]

62. Good Grief

"Investigators went around and beat the bushes trying to solve this case," said U.S. Attorney Bud Cummins of Arkansas. "But they concluded that HE DID THIS TO HIMSELF." (emphasis mine)

Psychiatrist Park Dietz, who has worked on the cases of Jeffrey Dahmer, the D.C.-area snipers and "Unabomber" Ted Kaczynski, is expected to testify that Smith's behavior characterized "factitious victimization disorder," a term Dietz coined for the case.


Not only has Dietz never examined Smith, but the psychiatrist's false testimony caused the Texas Supreme Court to overturn the conviction of child killer Andrea Yates in January.