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Raphael Weber Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 03:22 PM
Original message
Did a discussion on DU change your opinion about a topic of 911
Hi!
As I'm new here I'm very curious if a discussion here on DU ever changed your point of view concerning a topic of 911?
Somehow I've the impression that it often seems more important to prove that one i right, never to concede and never ever to admit that the other person was right. That thanks to a new info one has changed his mind.
Somehow to know the truth of what happened that day and to discuss this with all fairness and respect seems less relevant than to show the other that he's as usual wrong.
Of course 911 is a very emotional topic and there are basically two camps and one either has to belong to the one side or to the other
and even simply to ask for the facts and to try to look objectively at these facts seems impossible.
But nobody can be right on all issues. Therefore basically everybody should have had an experience discussing 911 here where she/he realized that he was wrong and that she/he has learnt from the "other side".
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deconstruct911 Donating Member (809 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
1. There's an old saying, the FBI has to be right 100% of the time
the terrorists just have to be right once.

Pretend the OCT is the FBI and the evil skeptics or "truthers" are the terrorists. The OCT's facade is far too flimsy to admit defeat even once.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
2. Yes.
Although, for me, it usually comes more from learning verifiable, factual information than from discussion and argumentation.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
3. Yes
I have changed my mind from reading DU.

At first I thought it was just as bushco said.

Then I read a lot of stuff here and became educated as to the truth.

Bushco knew and LIHOP/MIHOP.
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terrafirma Donating Member (339 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Funny
How you claim to know the truth, but still can't seem to decide between LIHOP and MIHOP.

Two completely different things which cannot be supported by the same "facts" you claim to have.

Seems to be the MO for most of the truth movement. Here we are, coming up on 10 years after that day and the movement, which has been around for at least 5 or 6 of those years, is no closer to a coherent explanation than they were when Loose Change first hit YouTube.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
zappaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. great defense of your facts and reasoning, BeFree
Guess you still have nothing, ?
Heh.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. What do you have besides blah, blah, blah?
Typical OCTer.... bushco runs away free and you attack a citizen who wants the truth.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. Claim? RE: terrafirma
Edited on Thu Jan-13-11 11:40 AM by BeFree
I claim to be seeking the truth. And you are trying to keep me from doing so, it appears.

In fact you go so far as to try and read my mind!! What a dumbass thing for you to do, eh?

But let's play your stupid fucking game for now. Since you are so smart, you can tell me about PTech and it's 9/11 shadow?
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zappaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. "I claim to be seeking the truth. And you are trying to keep me from doing so, it appears."
How is anyone here keeping you from seeking the truth?
We are just laughing at your lack of reasoning and furthermore your beliefs that are based on ZERO evidence.
You're the one with the deleted posts...heh.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Do you know about PTech?
Of course not. Stupid question to you.

Zero is all you got, and why you want to keep showing your zero, I'll never know.

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sofa king Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
11. Yes.
It was here that I began to learn the particulars of how WTC-7 came down, and I now understand how the building could have come down all on its own. I'm still not entirely convinced it did, though.

I find that one way to keep these cats in line is to make 'em provide sources for what they say.

Those who link to a Flash presentation on Youtube written in all-caps Impact font are the ones you can dismiss out of hand.
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IScreamSundays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 06:24 PM
Response to Original message
12. Here is the thing about 9-11
and yes my curiosity was elevated after reading some posts at this site post-911. Actually, in my MSM controlled world I would have never discounted the events of 9-11 if it had not been for those that asked me to take a second look. Having said that, I did an exhaustive study of 9-11, with respect to it's foremath(if that is even a word) and it's aftermath. I am not a scientist or engineer, nor a pilot or a air traffic controller. However I am of above average intelligence, sorry to bang my drum here. Forgive me.

My conclusion is this:

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Raphael Weber Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-11 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
13. Thanks everybody for answering the OP
and thanks for those who managed to stay on topic.
I'm very surprised that so far there is actually (as far as I can see) who has changed its mind due to a discussion on DU.
Changed in the sense that somebody who believes the official story realizes that an analysis of skeptics is valid
or a skeptic who realizes that on one issue the official version simply is true and there is no ground for the specific question.
Well, I think this is what discussions are for, no?
To learn from the person with whom you're discussing. Learn more, change your mind when you're convinced that you're wrong.
A discussion that only serves to show that I'm a genius and always right and the other is an idiot and always wrong.... what's the reason of that.
And yet many discussions here look exactly like that. That's why the discussions seem so similar although the specific topic is different.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-11 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Brief Discussion History
Many have come here seeking knowledge.

Some are here for amusement - they have posted as much.

Those here for fun seem to get their cookies by attempting to keep honest discussions from occurring.
They have had some success.
They have to be confronted and this isn't fun but it must be done, so that others may feel comfortable to engage.

You would not believe how many posters have been turned away by the crap that goes on here, unlike anywhere else on DU. But it does seem to be a bit better than in the past.

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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-11 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Stop whining
No one is stopping honest discussion from occurring. The truth is that as we approach ten years after the attacks there is nearly no evidence to support an inside job, and there is zero evidence to support fringe theories like CD, no-planes, and similair nonsense.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-11 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. And then there are Lared types
One simply wonders: What are they doing here?
Don't they have ANYTHING to say besides harass other posters ?

Meanwhile, new questions pile up as the possible answers are kept secret by the government.
What is it the government is hiding, and why?

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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-11 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. What are they doing here?
Amusing myself. I gave up trying to use logic and reason with Truthers a while ago.
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zappaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-11 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. +1 n/t
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deconstruct911 Donating Member (809 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-11 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Actually LARED
The little evidence that does exist, supports the idea of CD.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-11 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
20. My original, day one feelings about 9/11 were to believe that terrorists could have
Edited on Sun Jan-16-11 11:30 PM by defendandprotect
done it --

As the towers fell, I turned off my TV unable to watch the horror of it.

So I didn't exactly see repeats of the falling towers which might have alerted me to

something being very wrong. My mind and heart remained fixed for some time on what

I truly believed were people losing their lives in those towers -- including hundreds

of firemen. Fortunately, I was as a radio listener connected to Amy Goodman and WBAI

and a fantastic resercher there whose name I can't recall at the moment -- but who was

very familiar with FBI practices and "terorism" -- and what had actually been going on --

and had begun immediately investigating and asking: "How could they not have known?"

Great question -- and the answer is it would have been impossible for administration and

our intelligence agencies NOT to have known! Rather they were running an "Operation Ignore."


I did recognize, however, the lies of the first attack on the WTC in '93 -- and gradually

I began to question an aluminum plane going thru a steel building -- and when I reached

the website on the Pentagon, it was pretty much over. Later, "No Planes" made even more

sense to me. So -- yes, websites and info from posters provided the information I needed.

And I continue to thank the many -- French, British, Canadians and all of the American

researchers who began to look more closely at 9/11 and helped wake us all up!

Also, don't see what you're pointing to re 9/11 truthers insisting that "only they are right."

What I see is that they are presenting evidence which the OCT cannot respond to in any

believable way.

Somehow to know the truth of what happened that day and to discuss this with all fairness and respect seems less relevant than to show the other that he's as usual wrong.

And, neither do I think that's true --

I certainly do see fairness and respect on the part of truthers and researchers -- in fact,

I often think them overly patient in repeating information someone has missed.

Of course 911 is a very emotional topic and there are basically two camps and one either has to belong to the one side or to the other and even simply to ask for the facts and to try to look objectively at these facts seems impossible.

Many issues are "emotional" -- issues like abortion, for instance. Homelessness. Poverty.

Unemployment. And, often there are more than two sides expressing opinions on all issues.

But we do manage to come to fairly concrete understandings about all of those issues.


What I do find is that violence is a large clue to something being very wrong.

Which side uses violence in the abortion issue?

Where do we find the aggression and engineering which creates impoverished citizens other

than on the right?

The most notable events which precluded 9/11 were four, imo -- the '93 attack on the WTC

which was pretty much the work of the FBI which financed it -- and corrupt forces within the FBI

which suppressed efforts by FBI whistle blowers to reveal the conspiracy.

Think the '93 effort was completely unbelievable and questionable -- and FAILED to get what

the PNAC wanted -- i.e., a convincing terrorist attack on America which would force the

Clinton administration to attack in the ME -- specifically Iraq.

And, the movement of W Bush into the White House based on a ruling by a radical right wing

Gang of 5 on the Supremes -- completely reversed by journalists who counted the votes and let

us know that Gore won, no matter how the votes were counted - and that was just prior to 9/11.

And 9/11 was topped off by the Anthrax attacks which shut down Congress for months --

pretty much completely disrupting the MAIL FLOW from the general public to Congress.

And certainly completely disrupting Congress, itself.

Miraculously, the Patriot Act appeared within a day or so of the 9/11 attack!

Keeping all of that in mind, as you begin to deal with all of the coincidences and unbelievable

information re 9/11, the OCT collapses, imo.


But nobody can be right on all issues. Therefore basically everybody should have had an experience discussing 911 here where she/he realized that he was wrong and that she/he has learnt from the "other side".

I've mainly learned here at DU that most of the other side is poorly informed and many

disingenuous -- as often as I check what the "other side" is saying, I find that true.



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Raphael Weber Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-11 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
21. It's kind of sad
that so far nobody came forward stating that at least once a discussion here on DU make her/him change his mind on a topic of 911 because she/he realized that the "othe side" was indeed correct.
Isn't it somehow the very essence of a discussion to learn and also to be willing to admit an error and to come closer to something called "the truth"? Or is it nothing but a contest who the brightest and smartest is in the universe?
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Ohio Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-11 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. None of the regular posters will ever change their mind
IMHO, It is not why any of them are here. No real discussion goes on at all, either side states their case and the other disputes it. Truthers bring up the same tired crap and the same tired crap debunking it is put in reply. I believe many more people read then post and those are the ones who may have their opinion swayed but I suspect that number has dropped drastically. I think most people have made up their minds by now and the subject will pretty much fall by the wayside. Truthers have not and I believe never will come up with any real proof, just cherry picked quotes, innuendo and some plain silliness (no planes, lasers from space, CD and the like). Those that don't buy the CT's will never change their mind until evidence is produced.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-11 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. I would gladly change my mind, if...
actual, concrete evidence was presented.

The lack thereof is what making the "9/11 was an inside job" brigade an inside joke.
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