Richard Gage's 2009 Salary from AE911Truth - $75,450 - 21% of Revenues

[Bolo Boffin]

The 2009 Form 990-EZ for Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth is now available at Guidestar.org. According to it, Richard Gage made $75,450 in 2009.

As I posted at my 100% free, no-donations-requested-or-accepted" website AE911Truth.info:

The total revenue for 2009 – $344,570. Salaries for Gage and others topped out at $107,417. That means salaries constitute 31% of AE911Truth’s expenses.

http://ae911truth.info/wordpress/2010/ae911truth/75450/

There are FAR better uses for your money than AE911Truth.

[OnTheOtherHand]

1. I agree. But, just to be fair...

If all Gage is making from his AE911Truth gig is $75K/year, then he certainly isn't getting rich off it.

You didn't say anything about Gage getting rich. This is just a matter of my personal curiosity about his and others' motivations. Gage makes some arguments that are jaw-droppingly poor, so it is easy to suppose that he is a self-aware snake oil salesman. I think it's most likely that he basically believes what he says, although he may be conscious of tailoring some arguments to 'make an impression' or 'get people thinking' rather than getting them right.

I'm sure there are people who think that Richard Gage is an amazing bargain at $75,000/year. Go figure.

[snooper2]

2. No, but that's a nice paying gig for fleecing the stupid

make a couple low grade youtube videos...

book a few low end tv shows if possible...

Spend about as much time as spooked does coming up with cockamame truthies...

Work whatever hours you want...

Don't do shit for weeks at a time...



I would say that's a good gig..I want in on it :)

[SDuderstadt]

3. I am trying to aggregate several..

conspiracy theories together. The beta version is that "chemtrails" secretly contain Thermite and that's why the WTC collapsed.

I just need to fine-tune it to explain why so many other buildings are, nonetheless, still standing. A minor detail.

[zappaman]

4. Jeezus Dude

Don't let a minor detail stop you.
Certainly doesn't stop all the CTers from spouting nonsense.

[SDuderstadt]

5. I have to learn how...

to think more like a conspiracist.

[Eddie Haskell]

15. Villagers

The CT labeling here reminds me of a Monty Python skit.

B: What makes you think she is a witch?
Villager: Well, She turned me into a newt!!

(pause)

Bedevere: a newt?

(long pause)

Villager: I got better...
Villagers: BURN HER anyway! BURN! BURN! BURN HER!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g

[SDuderstadt]

19. Come to think of it, you guys DO...

remind me of a Monty Python skit. Either that or Firesign Theater.

Those guys were a hoot!

[deconstruct911]

6. WOW

Almost as much as the insurance industry made on premiums from 9 11. (and they didn't even have to make a low grade YouTube video) You should get in on the Wall Street gig snooper.

[SDuderstadt]

7. Do you think the...

insurance industry made more from premiums related to 9/11 then they had to payout in claims???

[deconstruct911]

9. Simple answer

the insurance business made more from 9 11 than they lost.

[SDuderstadt]

10. Please explain that...

do you understand how insurance works, dude?

[deconstruct911]

31. I'm not an expert

I hope you can get a hold of Morgan Stanley's special report on 9 11 though. I'm not going to waste significant time on this, either you have seen AIG's sales pre 9 11 & post 9 11 or you haven't.

This link provides some great details about it:

http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_1291.shtml

“Even A.I.G. would turn a profit of several hundred million dollars for the quarter.” He also said that "the company’s earnings would pick up to their historic pattern of more than 20 percent annual growth." In what seems like sanguineous, if not obscene enthusiasm, he said, “The opportunities for us are enormous.” He added, “It’s a global opportunity. It’s not just in the United States, but rates are rising throughout the world. So our business looks quite good going forward.

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/10/business/insurance-prices-soaring-aig-chief-says.html

BTW do you remember Sptizer's investigation of MMC & AIG? I was only referring to the "legal" part of the profit scheme.

[SDuderstadt]

83. "I'm not an expert"

No shit. Can you do basic math? Greenburg stated that, despite the fact that they had to pay out $600 million on top of a one-time restructuring cost, they would still make @ $200 million. Pop quiz: which is more? $200 million or $800 million?

[deconstruct911]

85. & neither are you

He said several and that's not long term.

[SDuderstadt]

89. WTF...

are you babbling about now?

[deconstruct911]

102. your bullshit claims dude.

"No shit. Can you do basic math? Greenburg stated that, despite the fact that they had to pay out $600 million on top of a one-time restructuring cost, they would still make @ $200 million. Pop quiz: which is more? $200 million or $800 million?"

pop quiz: is several 200?

[SDuderstadt]

103. MY bullshit claims??

How is having to pay out $600 million in claims profiting from 9/11?

[deconstruct911]

104. Dude

You are making this retarded. I said they made more from 9 11 than they lost. Argue with what I said, I will argue with what you said.

You realize Elliot Spitzer's lawsuit on Marsh was a greater cost than AIG's 9 11 payout?

"They formed a subsidiary -- Axis Specialty Ltd. -- to sell insurance to corporate customers at three or four times the rates before September 11. MMC says that it was merely "meeting market demands."

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_44/b3906001_mz001.htm

[SDuderstadt]

105. Dude...

the simple fact is that if they had not had to pay out $600 million in claims for 9/11, they would have made an $800 million profit for that quarter.

[zappaman]

11. looking forward to your numbers on this

should be easy for you to show, right?

[deconstruct911]

37. A simple example:

We estimate that Berkshire Hathaway and General Re combined will write around $12 billion in non life reinsurance premiums in 2001 and $2 billion in life/health reinsurance. We also estimate Berkshire’s probable largest loss from this event at around $1.5 billion or roughly 11% of premiums. Looked at very simply therefore, a price increase of 11% on unchanged volume would recoup Berkshire’s entire loss from the World Trade Center.We expect Berkshire’s volume to increase significantly −probably more than 25%. We expect rates to rise considerably more than 11%. Without trying to be overly precise, therefore, it’s clear that the largest reinsurers should fare better as the flight to quality steers customers back to reinsurers who can, without question, pay claims.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:tc7LqAP-YsEJ:maclaw.org/0Downloadfiles/asch0917.pdf+We+estimate+that+Berkshire+Hathaway+and+General+Re+combined+will+write+around+$12+billion+in+nonlife+reinsurance+premiums&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

[OnTheOtherHand]

25. I hear you... but I bet you actually don't want in on it

I won't bet very much, since obviously some people are more than happy to earn their keep by fleecing the stupid. But my guess is that most people, including you, would rather not.

I think that probably applies within 9/11 Truth as well: some folks are conscious hucksters, but most pretty much believe what they say. I don't know who is who.

[jberryhill]

84. I dunno

I've often thought about guys like Robert Tilton and the power of mailing lists.

If I wanted to make a career change, I have often thought that it wouldn't be too difficult to bundle together a bunch of feel-good tripe, package it as a religion, and sell a monthly newsletter of platitudes cloaked in revelatory language for, say, a scale of $10 to $100 per month.

Nothing harmful, destructive or cultish, but figure... If you could get 1000 social rejects to feel better about themselves by making them think some guru - ie me - cares about them and gives them a reason to smile and live another meaningless day, then that's a not too shabby $100k per year. "Enlightened" members can buy up to $50 a month and get a larger chunk of wisdom.

You could even outsource to Chinese fortune cookie copy writers.

Even with turnover and attrition, it doesn't strike me as a repugnant idea. If some slob can't find meaning in life and becomes inspired by platitudinous tripe, it's cheaper than therapy and a great value at ten bucks a month.

[jberryhill]

8. You are correct, but if that is the bulk of his income...

...then it would be difficult for him to realize he has been mistaken.

Also, that compensation doesn't include expenses, which are another chunk of the total revenue. So, if you figure that he can expense a lot of his meals, lodging, etc., then those are things which aren't coming out of his salary.

[OnTheOtherHand]

26. true, that

I have no idea what Gage expenses, of course. What really strikes me with a lot of these folks is that their egos must be heavily invested in the roles they have taken on. The money is nice, but if Richard Gage were to wake up tomorrow and say, "Umm, after further review, never mind," how much attention (both positive and negative) would he lose?

[Bolo Boffin]

12. It's not Gage's 1040, which we may never see.

That's just how much money he gets from the AE911Truth account. I don't know yet if his speaking fees funnel through the organization, or if that's all on top. And there was a startup loan of over $20,000 that he got paid back as well.

And it's possible that his benefits might be paid out separately from this $75,000 or not. We just don't know. But it would be irresponsible not to ask questions, right?

[OnTheOtherHand]

29. LOL

I have to admit, it's hard to admit how any reasonable person could object to a full investigation.

But, actually, I don't care very much. I'm not saying that it's inappropriate to care, just reporting my own psychic state. :)

[immune]

13. Pffft

He could make that much as an accountant, or a nurse, or a marketing sales manager.
http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/career-articles-_75_000_salary_secrets_5_careers_that_pay_well_even_in_a_recession-786

Probably should've put his talents and skills toward becoming an oil exec or a bank CEO. Right?

But I'm not surprised you took the time to research his income ... which is derived from donations, not taxes like the billions spent on an investigation that even the co-chairman Thomas Kean and Lee Hamilton said Americans still don't know the whole truth about what happened that day.

[zappaman]

14. Just goes to show PT Barnum was right

Suckers just keep giving this guy money.
Hey, troofers, any closer to solving this great mystery?

[immune]

16. I have to assume

that you paid your fair share of the tax money spent by the government on that non-investigative investigation that even the investigators didn't find conclusive or satisfactory, so yeah, Barnum was right on target, especially with regard to people who swallowed the OTC hook, line and sinker.

[Bolo Boffin]

17. Making $1 by spreading misinformation about 9/11 is a dollar too much.

Would Gage had stuck to his more honorable profession!

You shouldn't be surprised that I'm tracking down every financial detail of the dealings of AE911Truth. It's a public non-profit, and its records are open to the public. If you feel great giving AE911Truth more money, knowing that a large portion is simply paying for Gage's alimony -- well, his reduced alimony, I guess. Going down from an architect's salary to a con-man's salary means the alimony for the ex-Mrs. Gage was cut down quite a bit. I guess. I don't know. It would be irresponsible not to ask questions...

[immune]

18. The difference is

the money GIVEN to AE911truth is truly voluntary, as opposed to what the official investigation cost in terms of taxpayer money.

LOL @ what you would have preferred Gage to stick to, now that was a real given.

[Bolo Boffin]

23. Yes, voluntarily, by people who buy into Gage's disinformation and falsehoods.

People are free to do what they want. I just want them to know that at least 20% of what they gave in 2009 went into Richard Gage's pocket.

[immune]

24. I guess people figure he (and the rest of them)

are doing a job that they couldn't do, but want done. And apparently they're satisfied with the work he's doing since they keep sending him money, so I don't see any reason for you to get your drawers in a knot over it. Nobody's asking you to kick in with a nickel.

But then, OTOH, maybe its because he IS doing such a good job that you find it necessary to take up this holy mission to discredit and defame him. Not that I would ever question anyone's motives, or anything like that, everybody has those, whether they'll admit it or not.

[Bolo Boffin]

28. "holy mission to discredit and defame him"? Please.

Get over yourself.

ETA: Just how is it defaming Gage to tell people how much he makes?

[immune]

33. I, for one,

don't give a damn how much he makes, I only care that he gets the job done. And I am thankful that he has some 1300 other professionals working with him to do it.

If millions of dollars in annual bonuses can be paid to the CEOs of insurance company death panels that deny poor people medical care, I'd call 75 grand a year to find out what happened on 9/11 a hell of a good deal.

[Bolo Boffin]

34. "I am thankful that he has some 1300 other professionals working with him to do it."

:rofl:

That's nice.

[tetedur]

27. Where can we find out how much the NIST investigation cost?

Though they contracted various "experts", a high school physics teacher, David Chandler, had to point out to them that during the collapse of WTC7 there was a period of free fall that they later acknowledged. Chandler did his first study with free video from the internet and free software and he made his findings available on You Tube.

[immune]

30. I can't get the website to load, but

The NIST World Trade Center Report: A New Standard for ...
Microsoft Powerpoint - View as html
We have spent more than a billion ... NIST’s investigation methods . A. Review of documents ... How much load was re-distributed? NIST says loads on some columns ...

http://74.6.117.48/search/srpcache?ei=UTF-8&p=how+much+spent+by+nist+on+investigation&xa=QyqF8xDxx3d9YV508cBMmw--%2C1289517743&fr=yfp-t-311&u=http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=how+much+spent+by+nist+on+investigation&d=4948180422428251&mkt=en-US&setlang=en-US&w=fc423c7e,f1ed57a1&icp=1&.intl=us&sig=aSOY7WDrZYS5anOBBKaPZQ--

If you scroll down far enough you can read some of the witness testimony, but otherwise I think you need powerpoint to read the whole thing.

[Bolo Boffin]

32. Why restrict yourself to just the NIST investigation? Let add up ALL the investigations!

1,500 people who worked the flight 93 crash scene
40,000 people who worked the piles at Ground Zero
55 FBI Evidence Response Teams at Fresh Kills in New York
7,000+ FBI Agents
8,000+ people who worked the scene at the Pentagon
Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl, Ph.D., P.E. / Aine M. Brazil, P.E., S.E. / Alan Rosa, P.E., S.E. / Alfred D. Barcenilla, Sr., P.E. / Allan Jowsey, Ph.D. / Allyn Kilsheimer, P.E., S.E. / Amit Bandyopadhyay, S.E. / Amy Zelson Mundorff / Anamaria Bonilla, S.E. / Andre Sidler, P.E., S.E. / Andrei Reinhorn, Ph.D., P.E., S.E. / Andrew Coats, P.E., S.E. / Andrew McConnell, S.E. / Andrew Mueller-Lust, S.E. / Andrew Pontecorvo, P.E. / Andrew Whittaker, Ph.D., P.E., S.E. / Anthony Kirk US&R Structural Specialist / Anthony W. Chuliver, S.E. / Antoine E. Naaman, Ph.D. / Antranig M. Ouzoonian, P.E. / Arlan Dobson, FEMA Region 2 DAS / Arthur Schuerman, FDNY (ret.) / Asif Usmani, Ph.D., B.E. / August Domel, Ph.D., S.E., P.E. / Ayhan Irfanoglu, P.E., S.E. / Barbara Lane, Ph.D. / Bernie Denke, P.E. US&R Structural Specialist / Bill Cote / Bill Coulbourne, P.E., S.E. / Bill Crowley, special agent, FBI / Bill Daly, senior vice president, Control Risks Group / Bill Scott (Capt. USAF, Ret.), / Bill Uher, NASA Langley Research Center / Bob Gray (I.U.O.E.) / Bonnie Manley, P.E., S.E. / Boris Hayda, P.E., S.E. / Brian Lyons, Tully / Brian McElhatten, S.E. / Brian Smith (Col.), Chief Deputy Medical Examiner, Dover AFB / Brian Tokarczik, P.E., S.E. / Charles Hirsch, M.D. / Charles J. Carter, P.E., S.E. / Charles Thornton, P.E. / Charlie Vitchers / Christoph Hoffmann, Ph.D., Purdue University / Christopher E. Marrion, P.E. / Christopher M. Hewitt, AISC / Christopher N. McCowan / Chuck Guardia, S.E. / Conrad Paulson, P.E., S.E. / Curtis S.D. Massey / D. Stanton Korista, P.E., S.E. / Dan Doyle (IW 40) / Dan Eschenasy, P.E., S.E. / Dan Koch Jr. / Daniel A. Cuoco, P.E / Daniele Veneziano, P.E. / David Biggs, P.E., S.E. / David Cooper, P.E. / David Davidowitz, ConEd / David Hoy, S.E. / David J. Hammond, P.E., S.E. / David Leach, P.E. / David M. Parks, ME / David Newland Sc.D., FREng. / David Peraza, P.E., S.E. / David Ranlet / David Schomburg / David Sharp, S.E. / David T. Biggs, P.E. / Dean Koutsoubis, S.E. / Dean Tills, P.E. / Delbert Boring, P.E. / Dennis Clark (IST) / Dennis Dirkmaat, Ph.D. / Dennis Mileti, Ph.D. / Dennis Smith / Dharam Pal, M.E. / Dick Posthauer, S.E. / Donald Friedman, P.E. / Donald O. Dusenberry, P.E. / Ed Jacoby Jr., NYSEMO / Ed McGinley, P.E. / Ed Plaugher, Chief, Arlington FD / Edward A. Flynn, Arlington Police Chief / Edward M. DePaola, P.E., S.E. / Edward Stinnette, Chief, FCFD / Eiji Fukuzawa / Fahim Sadek, P.E., S.E. / Farid Alfawakhiri, Ph.D., P.E., S.E. / Frank Vallebuono, FDNY Battalion Chief / Anthony Varriale, FDNY Captain / Frank Cruthers, FDNY Chief / Frank Fellini, FDNY Chief / Joseph Callan, FDNY Chief / Daniel Nigro, FDNY Chief of Operations / Nick Visconti, FDNY Deputy Chief / Peter Hayden, FDNY Deputy Chief / Sam Melisi, FDNY Firefighter / Forman Williams, Ph.D., P.E. / Francis J. Lombardi, P.E. / Frank Gayle, Sc.D. / Frank Greening, Ph.D. / Fred E.C. Culick, Ph.D., S.B. / Fred Endrikat, FEMA USAR / Gary Keith, V.P. NFPA / Gary Steficek, S.E. / Gary Tokle, Asst. VP, NFPA / George Tamaro, P.E., S.E. / Gerald Haynes, P.E. / Gerald Wellman US&R Structural Specialist / Glenn Corbett / Graeme Flint / Guy Colonna, P.E., NFPA / Guylene Proulx, Ph.D. / H.S. Lew, P.E., S.E. / Hal Bidlack, Lt. Col. USAF (ret.), Ph.D. / Harold E. Nelson, P.E., FSFP.E. / Harry Martin, AISC / Howard R. Baum, Ph.D., M.E. / J. David Frost, Ph.D., P.E. / J. David McColskey / Jack Brown Deputy Chief Loudoun County (Va.) Fire Rescue Department / Jack Messagno, WTC project Manager (Tully) / Jack Spencer, P.E. / Jacques Grandino, P.E., S.E. / James A. Rossberg, P.E. / James Chastain US&R Structural Specialist / James H. Fahey, S.E. / James J. Cohen, P.E., S.E. / James J. Hauck, P.E., S.E. / James Lord, FSFP.E. / James Milke, Ph.D., P.E. / James Quintiere, Ph.D., P.E. / Jan Szumanski, IUOE / Jason Averill, FSFP.E. / Jeff Rienbold, NPS / Jeffrey Hartman, S.E. / Jim Abadie, Bovis / Joel Meyerowitz / John Fisher, Ph.D., P.E., / John Flynn, P.E. / John Gross, Ph.D., P.E. / John Hodgens, FDNY (ret.) / John J. Healey, Ph.D., P.E. / John J. Zils, P.E., S.E. / John L. Gross, Ph.D., P.E. / John Lekstutis, P.E. / John M. Hanson, Ph.D, P.E. / John McArdle NYPD/ESU (DTC) / John Moran, NYPD/ESU (NTC) / John O'Connell, Chief FDNY / John Odermatt (NYC OEM) / John Ruddy, P.E., S.E. / John Ryan, PAPD / John W. Fisher, P.E. / Jon Magnusson, P.E., S.E. / Jonathan Barnett, Ph.D / Joo-Eun Lee P.E., S.E. / José Torero, Ph.D. / Joseph C. Gehlen, P.E., S.E. / Joseph Englot, P.E., S.E. / Jozef Van Dyck, P.E. / Juan Paulo Morla, S.E. / Karen Damianick, P.E. / Karl Koch III / Karl Koch IV / Kaspar Willam, P.E., S.E. / Keith A. Seffen, MA, Ph.D. / Ken Hays / Kenneth Holden / Kent Watts / Kevin Brennan, OSHA / Kevin Malley, FDNY (ret.) / Kevin Terry, S.E. / Kurt Gustafson, P.E., S.E. / Larry Keating (IW 40) / Lawrence C. Bank, Ph.D., P.E. / Lawrence Griffis, P.E. / Lawrence Novak, P.E., S.E. / Leo J. Titus, P.E. / Leonard M. Joseph, P.E. / Leslie E. Robertson, P.E., S.E. / Long T. Phan, Ph.D., P.E. / Lou Mendes, P.E., S.E. / Louis Errichiello, S.E. / Manny Velivasakis, P.E. / Mark Blair / Mark Kucera, USACE / Mark Pierepiekarz, P.E., S.E. / Mark Stahl / Mark Tamaro, P.E / Mark Volpe, IW 40 / Marty Corcoran / Matthew G. Yerkey, P.E., S.E. / Matthew McCormick, NTSB / Melbourne Garber, P.E., S.E. / Merle E. Brander, P.E. / Mete A. Sozen, Ph.D., S.E. / Michael Burton, P.E. / Michael Dallal / Michael Fagel, Ph.D., CEM / Michael Hessheimer, S.E. / Michael K. Hynes, Ed.D., ATP, CFI / Michael Tylk, P.E., S.E. / Michel Bruneau, Ph.D., P.E., S.E. / Mike Banker, FDNY Capt. (SOC) / Mike Marscio, P.E. / Miroslav Sulc,, P.E., S.E. / Mohammed Ettouney / Mohammed R. Karim, Ph.D. / Morgan Hurley, FSFP.E. / Nestor Iwankiw, Ph.D., P.E. / Nick Carcich / Norman Groner, Ph.D. / Pablo Lopez, P.E., S.E. / Patrick McNierney, P.E., S.E. / Paul A. Bosela, Ph.D., P.E. / Paul F. Mlakar, Ph.D., P.E. / Paul Sledzik / Paul Tertell, P.E. / Pete Bakersky / Peter Chipchase, S.E. / Peter Rinaldi, P.E. / Phillip Murray, P.E. / Pia Hoffman / Rajani Nair, S.E. / Ralph Castillo, P.E., F.P.E. / Ralph D'Apuzo, P.E. / Ramon Gilsanz, P.E., S.E / Randy Lawson / Raul Maestre, P.E., S.E. / Raymond F. Messer, P.E. / Raymond H.R. Tide, P.E., S.E. / Reidar Bjorhovde, Ph.D., P.E / Richard Bukowski P.E., FSFP.E. / Richard G. Gewain, P.E., S.E. / Richard Gann, Ph.D. / Richard Garlock, P.E., S.E. / Richard J. Fields, Ph.D. / Richard Kahler US&R Structural Specialist / Robert Athanas (thermal imaging specialist, FDNY) / Robert C. Sinn, P.E., S.E. / Robert Clarke, S.E. / Robert F. Duval (NFPA) / Robert Frances US&R Structural Specialist / Robert J. McNamara, P.E., S.E. / Robert L. Parker, Ph.D. / Robert Ratay, Ph.D., P.E., S.E. / Robert Shaler, M.D. / Robert Smilowitz, Ph.D., P.E / Robert Solomon, P.E. / Robert Wills, AISC / Ron Dokell, president, Demolition Consultants / Ronald Greeley, Ph.D. / Ronald Hamburger, P.E., S.E. / Ronald J. LaMere, P.E. / Ronald Rehm, Ph.D. / Ronald Spadafora, FDNY D.A.C / Ruben M. Zallen, P.E. / Russell "Rusty" Dodge Jr, Asst. Chief, Fort Belvoir FD / Ryan Mackey / S. Shyam Sunder, P.E., S.E. / Saroj Bhol, P.E. / Saw-Teen See, P.E. / Shankar Nair. P.E., S.E. / Shawn Kelly, Arlington County Fire Marshal / Skip Aldous, Lt. Col., U.S. Air Force (Ret.) / Socrates Ioannides, P.E., S.E. / Sonny Scarff / Stan Murphy, P.E. / Stephen Cauffman / Stephen W. Banovic, Ph.D. / Steve Douglass, image analysis consultant / Steve Rasweiler, FDNY B.C. (SOC) / Steve Spall, P.E., S.E. / Stuart Foltz, P.E. / Terry Sullivan, Bovis / Theodore Galambos, P.E. / Theodore Krauthammer, Ph.D., P.E. / Therese P. McAllister, Ph.D., P.E. / Thomas A. Siewert / Thomas Eagar, Sc.D., P.E. / Thomas Hawkins Jr, Chief, AFD / Thomas R. Edwards, Ph.D / Thomas Schlafly, AISC / Timothy Foecke, Ph.D. / Todd Curtis, Ph.D / Todd Ude, P.E., S.E. / Tom Scarangello, P.E. / Tom Stanton (IST) / Tomasz Wierzbicki / Tony Beale, P.E. / Valentine Junker / Van Romero, Ph.D. / Venkatesh Kodur, Ph.D., P.E. / Victor Hare, P.E. / Victoria Arbitrio, P.E. / Vincent Dunn, FDNY (ret.) / W. Gene Corley, Ph.D., P.E., S.E. / W. Lee Evey / Wallace Miller / William Baker, P.E., S.E / William E. Luecke, Ph.D. / William Grosshandler, Ph.D., ME / William Howell, P.E., S.E. / William Koplitz photo desk manager, FEMA / William McGuire, P.E. / Willie Quinlan, IW / Won-Young Kim, Ph.D / Yates Gladwell pilot, VF Corp. / Yukihiro Omika / Zdenek Bazant, Ph.D., S.E. /
ACE Bermuda Insurance / AEMC Construction / AIG Insurance / Air Traffic Control System Command Center in Washington / Alexandria VA Fire & Rescue / Allianz Global Risks / American Airlines / American Concrete Institute / American Institute of Steel Construction / American Red Cross / Applied Biosystems Inc. / Applied Research Associates / Arlington County Emergency Medical Services / Arlington County Fire Department / Arlington County Sheriff's Department / Arlington VA Police Department / Armed Forces Institute of Pathology / Armed Forces Institute of Technology Federal Advisory Committee / ARUP USA / Atlantic Heydt Inc. / Bechtel / Berlin Fire Department / Big Apple Wrecking / Blanford & Co. / Bode Technology Group / Bovis Inc. / Building and Construction Trades Council / Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms / C-130H crew in D.C. & Shanksville / Cal Berkeley Engineering Dept. / California Incident Management Team / Carter Burgess Engineering / Celera Genomics / Centers for Disease Control / Central City Fire Department / Central Intelligence Agency / Cleveland Airport control tower / Columbia University Department of Civil Engineering and Engineering Mechanics / Congressional Joint Intelligence Committee / Consolidated Edison Company / Construction Technologies Laboratory / Controlled Demolitions Inc. / Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat / Counterterrorism and Security Group / CTL Engineering / D.H. Griffin Wrecking Co. Inc. / DeSimone Consulting Engineers / Dewhurst MacFarlane &Partners / DiSalvo Ericson Engineering / District of Columbia Fire & Rescue / DOD Honor Guard, Pentagon / D'Onofrio Construction / E-4B National Airborne Operations Center crews / Edwards and Kelcey Engineering / Engineering Systems, Inc. / Environmental protection Agency / Exponent Failure Analysis Associates / EYP Mission CriticalFacilities / Fairfax County Fire & Rescue / Falcon 20 crew in PA / Family members who received calls from victims on the planes / FBI Evidence Recovery Teams / Federal Aviation Administration / Federal Bureau of Investigation / Federal Emergency Management Agency / Federal Insurance Co. / FEMA 68-Person Urban Search and Rescue Teams: Arizona Task Force 1, California Task Force 1, California Task Force 3, California Task Force 7, Colorado Task Force 1, Fairfax Task Force 1, Florida Task Force 1, Florida Task Force 2, Maryland Task Force 1, Massachusetts Task Force 1, Metro Dade/Miami, Nebraska Task Force 1, New Mexico Task Force 1, New York Task Force 1, Pennsylvania Task Force 1, Tennessee Task Force 1, Texas Task Force 1, Utah Task Force 1, Virginia Task Force 1, Virginia Task Force 2, Washington Task Force 1 / FEMA Disaster Field Office / FEMA Emergency Response Team / FEMA Urban Search and Rescue Incident Support Team-Advanced 3 / Fire Department of New York / Fort Myer Fire Department / French Urban Search & Rescue Task Force / Friedens Volunteer Fire Department / Gateway Demolition / Gene Code Forensics / Georgia Tech Engineering Dept. / Gilsanz Murray Steficek LLP / GMAC Financing / Goldstein Associates Consulting Engineers / Guy Nordenson Associates / HAKS Engineers / Hampton-Clarke Inc. / HHS National Medical Response Team / HLW International Engineering / Hooversville Rescue Squad. / Hooversville Volunteer Fire Department / Hoy Structural Services / Hughes Associates, Inc / Hugo Neu Schnitzer East / hundreds of ironworkers, some of whom built the WTC / Hundreds of New York City Police Department Detectives / Industrial Risk Insurers / Institute for Civil Infrastructure Systems / International Association of Fire Chiefs / International Union of Operating Engineers Locals 14 & 15 / J.R. Harris & Company / Johnstown-Cambria County Airport Authority / Karl Koch Steel Consulting Inc. / KCE Structural Engineers / Koch Skanska / Koutsoubis, Alonso Associates / Laboratory Corp. of America / Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory / Leslie E. Robertson Associates / LIRo Engineering / Listie Volunteer Fire Company / Lockwood Consulting / M.G. McLaren Engineering / Masonry Society / Mazzocchi Wrecking Inc. / Metal Management Northeast / Metropolitan Airport Authority Fire Unit / Miami-Dade Urban Search & Rescue / Military District of Washington Search & Rescue Team / Montgomery County Fire & Rescue / Mueser Rutledge Consulting Engineers / Murray Engineering / Myriad Genetic Laboratories Inc. / National Center for Biotechnology Informatics / National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States / National Council of Structural Engineers Associations / National Disaster Medical System / National Emergency Numbering Association / National Fire Protection Association / National Guard in D.C., New York, and Pennsylvania / National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) / National Institutes of Health Human Genome Research Institute / National Law Enforcement and Security Institute / National Military Command Center / National Reconnaissance Office / National Response Center / National Science Foundation Division of Civil and Mechanical Systems / National Security Agency / National Transportation Safety Board / National Wrecking / Natural Hazards Research and Applications Information Center / New Jersey State Police / New York City Department of Buildings WTC Task Force / New York City Department of Design and Construction / New York City Department of Environmental Protection / New York City Office of Emergency Management / New York City Office of the Chief Medical Examiner / New York City Police Department Aviation Unit / New York City Police Department Emergency Services Unit / New York Daily News / New York Flight Control Center / New York Newsday / New York Port Authority Construction Board / New York Port Authority Police / New York State Emergency Management Office / New York State Police Forensic Services / New York Times / North American Aerospace Defense Command / Northeast Air Defense Sector Commanders and crew / Numerous bomb-sniffing dogs / Numerous Forensic Anthropologists / Numerous Forensic Dentists / Numerous Forensic Pathologists / Numerous Forensic Radiologists / NuStats / Occupational Safety and Health Administration / Office of Emergency Preparedness / Office of Strategic Services / Orchid Cellmark / Parsons Brinckerhoff Engineering / Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection / Pennsylvania Department of Health and Human Services / Pennsylvania Region 13 Metropolitan Medical Response Group / Pennsylvania State Funeral Directors Association / Pennsylvania State Police / Pentagon Defense Protective Service / Pentagon Helicopter Crash Response Team / Pentagon Medical Staff / Pentagon Renovation Team / Phillips & Jordan, Inc. / Port of New York and New Jersey Authority / Pro-Safety Services / Protec / Public Entity Risk Institute / Purdue University Engineering Dept. / Robert Silman Associates Structural Engineers / Rolf Jensen & Associates, Inc / Rosenwasser/Grossman Consulting Engineers / Royal SunAlliance/Royal Indemnity / SACE Prime Power Assessment Teams / SACE Structural Safety Engineers and Debris Planning and Response Teams / Salvation Army Disaster Services / several EPA Hazmat Teams / several FBI Hazmat Teams / several Federal Disaster Medical Assistance Teams / several Federal Disaster Mortuary (DMORT) Teams / Severud Associates Consulting Engineers / Shanksville Volunteer Fire Company / Silverstein Properties / Simpson Gumpertz & Heger Engineers / Skidmore, Owings & Merrill LLP / Skilling Ward Magnusson Barkshire / Society of Fire Protection Engineers / Somerset Ambulance Association / Somerset County Coroner's Office / Somerset County Emergency Management Agency / Somerset Volunteer Fire Department / St. Paul/Travelers Insurance / State of Pennsylvania Emergency Management Agency / Stoystown Volunteer Fire Company / Structural Engineering Institute of the American Society of Civil Engineers (SEI/ASCE) / Structural Engineers Association of New York / Superstructures Engineering / Swiss Re America Insurance / Telephone operators who took calls from passengers in the hijacked planes / Teng & Associates / Thornton-Tomasetti Group, Inc. / TIG Insurance / Tokio Marine & Fire / Transportation Safety Administration / Tully Construction / Twin City Fire Insurance / Tylk Gustafson Reckers Wilson Andrews Engineering / U.S. Army Corps of Engineers / Underwriters Laboratories / Union Wrecking / United Airlines / United States Air National Guard / United States Fire Administration / United States Secret Service / United Steelworkers of America / University of Sheffield Fire Engineering Research / US Army Reserves of Virginia Beach Fairfax County and Montgomery County / US Army’s Communications-Electronics Command / US Department of Defense / US Department of Justice / US Department of State / Virginia Beach Fire Department / Virginia Department of Emergency Management / Virginia State Police / Vollmer Associates Engineers / Washington Post / Weeks Marine / Weidlinger Associates / Weiskopf & Pickworth Engineering / Westmoreland County Emergency Management Agency / Whitney Contracting / Willis Group Holdings / WJE Structural Engineers / Worcester Polytechnic Institute / World Trade Center security staff / XL Insurance / Yonkers Contracting / York International / Zurich Financial / Zurich Re Risk Engineering

Gage's $75,450 salary just seems paltry next to that, doesn't it?

[immune]

35. Since you've posted that list before,

I'd call that spam.

But ....

just for kicks and giggles, I highlighted one of the entities who "participated" in the investigation and came up with this:

http://www.asce.org/uploadedFiles/Government_Relations_-_New/writtentestimony102605.pdf

What, four or five pages of testimony containing one sentence about the collapse in question.

Maybe you could put your sluthing abilities to work and find out how much we paid for that report.

[Bolo Boffin]

36. My goodness.

That testimony is talking about implementing the NIST recommendations developed from their studies of the collapses of the World Trade Center buildings. Far from only having "one sentence about the collapse," the whole thing is based on the NIST study.

This is what adults do, immune. They apply the best science available and they work to make buildings safer.

Meanwhile, Gage puts out the call for an International Marketing volunteer.

http://www.ae911truth.org/take-action/51-community-a-country/291-volunteer-oppertunites.html

With "over 1300 architects and engineers" working with Gage to investigate these collapses, you'd think some actual investigating would start happening. You'd think some kind of workable hypothesis on how any variety of thermite/thermate might be used to demolish a building. Instead, all we get is murky implications and more fundraising appeals.

[immune]

38. No, the "adults"

talk about tomorrow, not yesterday. Never yesterday. Why is that? Could it be because they either screwed the pooch, or they just plain screwed up, yesterday? It should be called no-fault adulthood.

Investigating IS happening as we speak, Bolo. It took six years for the official investigation to get finished. Only then did the SERIOUS investigation begin to get underway.

You were so patient for the first reports to come out and now all of a sudden you're in such a gawd awful hurry. :shrug:

[Bolo Boffin]

39. Yes, tomorrow. The report you cite is talking about how to implement NIST recommendations.

Not yesterday, tomorrow. In the future. Just like you say adults act.

Do adults wait six years to start the SERIOUS investigation? Please point me to where all of this SERIOUS investigation is getting underway. Let's have a workable hypothesis for how thermite in any of its splendiferous forms could be used in controlled demolitions.

[immune]

40. The commission wasn't set up to dream up

futuristic visions, it was supposed to be a hard nosed investigation into what happened on September 11, 2001. That was what they were commissioned to do. And that's all.

NIST investigators (if you could call them that) never looked for thermite/thermate/nanothermite in the rubble and they overturned all the standards and rules regarding fire investigations by willfully refusing to do so? THAT was no serious investigation, it was a cover-up, pure and simple and, as I've said before, even some of the commissioners weren't satisfied with the dodgy testimony they were given. No matter how you frame your protests, it can't be prettied up.

[AZCat]

42. That's quite a strong claim.

NIST investigators (if you could call them that) never looked for thermite/thermate/nanothermite in the rubble and they overturned all the standards and rules regarding fire investigations by willfully refusing to do so?

Please cite the sections of these "standards and rules regarding fire investigations". I hope this isn't the overblown NFPA 921 bullshit again.

[Bolo Boffin]

46. "overblown NFAP 921 bullshit again" - I fear that it is.

I guess immune didn't notice that the National Fire Protection Association actually helped in the 9/11 investigations. It was on the list!

[immune]

50. For the umpteenth time

This is from the 2001 Edition of the National Fire Protection Association NFPA 921 Guide for Fire and Explosion Investigations.

19.2.4 - “Exotic Accelerants. Mixtures of fuels and Class 3 or Class 4 oxidizers may produce an exceedingly hot fire and may be used to start or accelerate a fire. Thermite mixtures also produce exceedingly hot fires. Such accelerants generally leave residues that may be visually or chemically identifiable.

http://firefightersfor911truth.org/?cat=8&paged=2

You call that bullshit? You call it overblown? Why didn't they check for those residues? Over a billion dollars we paid them and they couldn't do a few simple tests? Its STANDARD protocol with any fire ... but not for the worst attack ever in this country. Stunning.

[AZCat]

52. Nothing produces experts like copypasta.

Have you ever actually read NFPA 921? Maybe you should become a little more familiar with the source material before making claims like these.

[immune]

62. Yeah.

I can't find anywhere in it that says fire investigators don't have to bother testing for exotic accelerants. Can you?

[AZCat]

65. You have? Which versions?

I have the 2004 and 2008 versions.

[immune]

70. Good

Have you found, in either version, the part where it says not to bother testing for exotic accelerants yet?

[SDuderstadt]

72. Dude...

in what way is the cause of the fires in the WTC unknown????

[SDuderstadt]

66. For the last fucking time...

"immune", NFPA 19.2.4 addresses fires for which the cause is unknown. This is getting stupid.

[immune]

73. Jet fuel, right? Case closed, right?

In building 7? You're sure about that?

[SDuderstadt]

76. Dude...

there is video evidence of what caused the WTC 7 fire. Do you deny that???

[immune]

79. Wanna see a fire?

http://wtc7.net/buildingfires.html

It didn't fall down.

[SDuderstadt]

80. It also was not designed nor built like...

WTC 7. You're parading your ignorance again.

[immune]

91. Design failure?

Don't you think the people who worked in building 7 should have been forewarned that their building was designed to collapse if an office fire occurred?

[SDuderstadt]

93. Dude...

design flaws usually aren't apparent until it's too late.

Your inability to understand simple realities is truly stunning. It's almost as stunning as your inability to understand how differences in design and construction make for differences in performance.

The most difficult thing to understand is why you insist on parading your ignorance all around.

[deconstruct911]

113. They certainly should have been warned of the hidden flaw

that the extraordinary amount of steel and concrete used for the WTC complex was no match for fire.(especially the 13th floor of wtc7)

[SDuderstadt]

115. For the love of Mike...

do you understand what the word "flaw" means? Do you see the word "deliberate" accompanying it anywhere?

[OnTheOtherHand]

86. that doesn't support your claim

If you could find a passage that clearly indicated that the investigators should have tested for exotic accelerants -- not that exotic accelerants exist -- why didn't you post that instead?

[Bolo Boffin]

44. Now wait. You just said adults look to the future. Now you're slaming NIST for proposing

recommendations for future buildings being safer.

I'll give you another post to make up your mind.

[AZCat]

45. Meh - there was SOME uproar within the professional community...

when NIST came out with their list of recommendations. Not all of them were equally meritorious.

[Bolo Boffin]

47. I'm not saying there wasn't. :D

Experts disagree all the time and they hash it out.

But the entire point of all official investigations into the collapses was to determine what happened so as to building better and safer buildings in the future. The merit of individual recommendations can be debated, but they were offered in good faith.

[AZCat]

49. I agree.

That's what gets lost in this whole argument - the point of the investigations wasn't to settle the doubts of every doubting Thomas, but to produce a reasonable assessment and program of recommendations for the various code and standard-maintaining organizations. Laypeople weren't originally the target audience.

[immune]

53. I guess you missed the quotes

around "adults". It was sarcasm.

[tetedur]

41. And all these learned people were schooled by David Chandler.

for free.

[AZCat]

43. Not really.

But your opinion is typical of those who don't understand the NIST investigation in the first place, so I'm not surprised.

[tetedur]

51. And your opinion is typical of those who don't understand

David Chandler. Apparently NIST conceded to acknowledging that free fall occurred. And a High School Physics teacher pointed it out to them.

[AZCat]

54. That's quite amusing.

What you find so apparent is not at all the way others (like myself) perceive events to have occurred.

[immune]

55. Apparently Thomas Kean

and Lee Hamilton didn't understand the NIST investigation, either, at least they were unhappy enough with the outcome to write a book about it.

But YOU understand it.


:banghead:

[AZCat]

56. I don't find that particularly relevant. n/t

[Bolo Boffin]

59. Thomas Kean and Lee Hamilton wrote a book about the NIST investigation?

Do tell.

[AZCat]

60. Hah! I didn't even catch that.

So many times these guys blur the 9/11 Commission and the NIST investigation, you get cross-eyed. Mea culpa.

[immune]

68. Okay,

you caught me on that one fair and square. After a while it all runs together.

And yes, NIST is about building safety/safely ... but that has nothing to do with why the towers collapsed the way they did that day, even though NIST was a major player in the investigation into why they collapsed the way they did. FAIL

[Bolo Boffin]

71. If the buildings were demolished with *therm*te, then NIST's recommendations are BS

And the building code modifications being enacted and discussed and implemented are threatening the stability of buildings around the world.

And yet, when ARUP did an internal study on the buildings collapsing and applied lessons learned to their future projects, the result was the Mandarin Oriental hotel fire.

Yes, a building fire currently used by AE911Truth to cast doubt on the WTC buildings is actually evidence that the buildings fell the way NIST and ARUP said that they did! Real-world applications built on the scientifically-arrived-at basis that the buildings collapsed!

[immune]

77. They never said how they fell,

they said, "global collapse" was "inevitable" after the "initiation of collapse."

Cut. Stop the cameras.

[SDuderstadt]

78. Dude...

once the collapse initiated, do you believe the buildings would have continued to stand???

Again, why do you insist on parading your ignorance here?

[Bolo Boffin]

81. Global collapse was inevitable after collapse initiation.

I'd like to see you try to stop it.

[deconstruct911]

193. That's a very convincing theory of the global collapse

I'd like to see demolition crews only put explosives near the top of structures....

[SDuderstadt]

194. Demolition crews don't normally...

conduct controlled demolition of 110 story buildings.

Duh.

[Bolo Boffin]

196. I'm not too concerned with whether you're convinced or not.

Math is math. If the upper sections, after dropping a single floor, had enough energy to buckle the columns all the way down 30 times over, what chance did the floor trusses have?

[SDuderstadt]

67. Why would Kean and Hamilton have written a book about...

the NIST investigation???

Better question: why do you insist on parading your ignorance all around for everyone to see?

[Bolo Boffin]

48. Sorry, no.

Chandler's measurements of WTC 7 confirmed NIST's modeling.

For free.

[tetedur]

57. You have obviously not watched Chandler's videos

No surprise there.

[Bolo Boffin]

58. Yes, I have.

And I know how to think on my own and not listen to the slanted presentations of a deluded high school physics teacher.

[tetedur]

61. At least NIST listened to the High School teacher

and were forced to acknowledge that free fall occurred.

[Bolo Boffin]

64. But Chandler will never acknowledge that his measurements verified NIST's modeling

Even though they did.

[tetedur]

74. And how would you know that since you "don't Listen"?

to a "deluded" High School teacher? You obviously have no clue to the point that he made about the NIST Report.

[Bolo Boffin]

82. I can hear his words and comprehend what he's saying

And that's enough to let me know I don't have to listen to the silly person.

[whatchamacallit]

119. Anyone can claim anything is misinformation

Your watchdog consumer crusade is bullshit.

[MinM]

20. Certainly not what the disinformationists make, but money well earned.

Good for him.

[SDuderstadt]

21. I'd love for you to name one of these...

"disinformationists", dude.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SDuderstadt]

63. Do you understand the difference between...

"disinformation" and "misinformation"?

[immune]

69. I don't think the commission

would've considered calling upon the justice department if they didn't know the difference. Do you?

[SDuderstadt]

75. Yes, I do...

dude. Simple question: why didn't the 9/11 Commission refer the matter to the DOJ? Think hard.

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SDuderstadt]

92. Dude...

debate is not "obstruction".

I see you didn't answer my question, but, instead, started rambling about some bizarre fantasy about executing people. Fucking unbelievable.

[immune]

94. Bizarre fantasy? (graphic photo warning)

He looks pretty damned real to me. And its doubtful he survived it since we destroyed their medical capabilities, so executed in the foulest of ways would probably fit the bill ... over a misunderstanding and misinformation. What's fucking unbelievable is that some people can look away and say, "oh well, it was just a mistake".

[SDuderstadt]

95. I don't interact with people who..

express bizarre fantasies about executing me, dude.

[immune]

96. Look away.

Look away.

[SDuderstadt]

97. No one is...

"looking away", dude. I have already stated that Bush/Cheney should be indicted, prosecuted and convicted.

But, again, your ominous fantasy about having me executed is outrageous and a violation of DU rules. Your despicable tactics are noted.

[immune]

98. "you" was not

intended to mean "you" personally ... it was a general you, meaning anyone.

Bush/Cheney will NEVER be indicted, prosecuted and convicted unless a new investigation is opened and the misinformation, disinformation and bold faced lies are rooted out. Nothing will ever be done about the torture Bush now boldly admits unless it can be proved that the deadly duo had a hand in LIHOP/MIHOP and 911 was a plan to orchestrate a war (two wars) against innocents.

[SDuderstadt]

99. Dude...

I don't believe you and, in any event, your inarticulateness is no excuse. It's a little late for your backtracking now. Bush/Cheney could easily be indicted without a grand jury investigation into your bizarre fantasy that "9/11 was an inside job", as outlined by Vincent Bugliosi.

Maybe you should think carefully about the stupid things you write before you post them.

[immune]

100. Did you think

I live or die based on your opinions?

Hide and watch, intent is the key. Unless it can be proved that they orchestrated the event that brought about the torture, their response to an outside attack can be justified. Maintaining that premise, however false and specious, is all they need to skate on torture charges.

[SDuderstadt]

101. Absolutely wrong...

They are culpable for their actions, irrespective of how the attacks came about. Maybe you should read Bugliosi's book, rather than the goofy CT bullshit you parrot.

Dude, if you had proof that 9/11 was either LIHOP or MIHOP, you'd present it. In the meantime, you continue to squander whatever meager credibility you might have possessed initially by your gross ignorance of the actual facts surrounding 9/11 and your bizarre fantasy about me or anyone else "facing the needle", which is a blatant violation of DU rules, no matter whom it's directed to.

With that, I bid you farewell.

[immune]

106. Ah, maybe you think I'm right,

so you take your marbles and go home?

And Bush knows I'm right, too, or he'd never be admitting publicly to torture, which is a war crime. All he has to do is say he did it to protect the murican peepul and he'd skate. And it doesn't take the brain of a newt to figure out that he deliberately removed the US from international war crimes courts BEFORE committing war crimes because he knew he'd be safe in the protective arms of the murican courts. Without proof of a connection between the crimes of torture and the crimes committed on 911, he's untouchable.

And do you deny murderers do occasionally face the needle? Is that supposed to be a big bad secret, too? We aren't allowed to talk about it? And actually, being against the death penalty, I'd much prefer to see them sentenced to life in Gitmo. Or maybe to the general population at Leavenworth.

[SDuderstadt]

109. No, I think your tactics are despicable...

and you might want to read the rules. Wishing physical harm on anyone, regardless of the circumstances, is a blatant violation of DU rules, especially when directed at other members.

And you can't seem to understand why no one takes you seriously?

[immune]

110. Scroll back up to the picture of that Iraqi kid

and multiply the harm done to him tens of thousands of times. Now that's dispicable. And its also a blatant violation of humanity. Their deaths were caused by lies. Punishable by ..... what? Seriously.

BTW, no harm was wished upon a single hair on your head and you know it.

[SDuderstadt]

111. Bullshit, dude...

read the post in question for comprehension.

You can go screw yourself. Of course, I don't literally mean "you". See how that works?

You could have easily used words like "anyone", "they" and others that would have depersonalized it. But, instead, you chose to personalize it by using phrases like "on a personal level" and addressing me directly. You can save yourself the trouble of addressing me further as you try to extricate yourself from what you said.

It's not like anyone takes you seriously anyhow.

[immune]

112. Bullshit backatcha dude

Go back and read it again yourself ... "IF" being the operative word and nowhere did I suggest that YOU would do such a thing. But the fact remains, "IF" you, or I, or anyone else did such a terrible thing, there would be hell to pay. Justifiably.

Get over yourself.

[SDuderstadt]

114. Read post # 95...

dude. If it was merely a perception on my part, you had every chance to correct it there.

It's funny watching you flailing away trying to reframe your own words. Like I said, I'm done.

[immune]

116. Your comprehension problems

are not my responsibility.

[SDuderstadt]

117. Dude...

while I will admit your writing is very poor, you clearly had every chance to correct any "impression" you gave. I also believe that a clear majority of readers would read it the way I read it, given the context of the posts that preceded it. The very fact that you, even now, cannot concede that your words were, at the very least, poorly chosen, is just more evidence that you are a waste of time.

Now, exercise some reading comprehension of your own. I'm done. Get it?

[immune]

118. Your beliefs

are also not my responsibility.

I got it, you're done. Maybe. And maybe I'm not done.

[wildbilln864]

178. you're the one...

not taken seriously here dude! Else you wouldn't have to keep coming back to repeat your authoritarian memes. It just hasn't sunk in to you yet. :shrug: How many minds have you changed here? Answer? Probably 0. But hang in there dude anyway.

[SDuderstadt]

179. "authoritarian memes"

Point to one, dude.

[LARED]

201. I have come to believe to some folks authoritarian means

"we disagree"

[OnTheOtherHand]

107. people wonder why I don't just call a grand jury myself?

At the risk of false humility, I find that extremely hard to believe.

You seem to think that you're more committed to discovering the truth than other posters here, but the content of your posts doesn't bear that out. Honestly, at times I find it somewhat alarming to read such posts, so long on attitude, so short on fact-checking.

[immune]

108. Where did I say that?

What I think is that the truth movement, as a whole, is more committed to discovering the truth than those who would prevent a grand jury from being called and launching a new independent investigation to bring the facts forward. Its hard to check facts when they're buried beneath a mountain of bureaucratic minutiae and secrecy.

[jberryhill]

120. "those who would prevent a grand jury from being called"

I see.

And you believe that people on DU are empowered to either convene a grand jury or prevent one from being convened?

[immune]

121. Who would have believed

that a complete novice in political processes wrote a resolution for a new, independent investigation into 9/11 in Colorado and got it passed?

[jberryhill]

122. That kind of thing happens all of the time

A lot of state party organizations are pretty open to anyone who wants to press an agenda.

Here in Delaware, a handful of yahoos took the state GOP by storm and got that wingnut Christine O'Donnell on the ballot.

But when the CO party actually runs a candidate for statewide office who implements that part of a document that nobody reads, do let us know.

Now, would you like to answer my question about your belief that DU discussions can cause or prevent grand jury investigations?

[immune]

123. Never know.

Somebody on DU might just decide to give it a whirl in the town/city/state where they live and meet with the same success. And who knows who all might read it. Its simply an example of what one person can do.

[OnTheOtherHand]

124. "those who would prevent a grand jury"

What can I say? Basically, this is an argument in your head, seemingly tailored to make you feel good. I'm not at all impressed with the "truth movement"'s commitment to discovering the truth. I just don't see it.

[immune]

125. Blindness is all I can figure.

The 9/11 commission co-chairman Thomas Kean and Lee Hamilton said in their book that "Americans still don't know the whole truth about what happened that day." They were right there throughout the hearings, unlike the rest of us, so you have to figure that they might know what they're talking about. And I find it stunning that there are actually people out there who don't want us to know what really happened that day. Maybe you could help me figure out what we have to fear in knowing the truth? What terrible thing do you think would happen?

[OnTheOtherHand]

143. who is afraid of knowing the truth?

I think Richard Gage is*, because he would have to find a new line of work. In my opinion, and I believe in Kean and Hamilton's, the important unanswered questions about 9/11 have nothing to do with controlled demolition hypotheses. That you blithely cite Kean and Hamilton as if their opinion is closer to yours than to mine really makes me question your seriousness.

ETA: I doubt he is conscious of this. But I can't shake the sense that if he were focused on knowing the truth, he would be a lot closer by now.

[immune]

144. None of us will ever know what we don't know

if somebody doesn't look. Luckily, several somebody's are busily looking for facts that we don't currently have and if what they might be finding worries you, for a small donation you can receive their monthly newsletter and stay up to speed on how close they're getting. B-)

Your beliefs and opinions have nothing to do with unknown facts, and neither do mine, which is why overwhelming evidence is going to be needed to convince a grand jury to order a new independent investigation. No one disputes that. And it won't happen overnight. How many years did it take the commission to put out their final report? And even they had to fight to get any evidence ... even bad evidence ... out of a very reticent WH, Pentagon, FAA and NORAD.

So cut Gage and Gourley and the rest of them some slack ... THEY had to win a FOIA lawsuit before they could even begin to pull any non publicized teeth out of the bureaucratic hen and that poor old chickie was probably well over half redacted before being shipped out.

[SDuderstadt]

146. I don't understand why anyone would think that...

someone who thinks the plural of "somebody" is "somebody's" (sic), rather than "somebodies", can be taken seriously.

[zappaman]

147. who cares about his spelling?

That's the LEAST of his problems.
Now chickens are involved in 9/11?

[SDuderstadt]

148. It's not merely a...

"spelling" problem. It's confusing possessive for plural. I think it goes to the issue of his skill level (or lack thereof).

[zappaman]

149. Hold on!

The chickens don't bother you?!
Monkeys I can imagine being involved in 9/11, but chickens?!?!?!

[SDuderstadt]

150. Do you mean...

"chicken's"?

[immune]

203. It started out as

"Somebody's looking". Adding "Several" and "are" is where it went wrong.

But one incorrect word threw you off the gist of the message. I guess so, seeings how you didn't attempt to address the gist of the message.

[OnTheOtherHand]

195. "if what they might be finding worries you"

Yeah, right.

Look, if you don't want to understand why people disagree with you, that's your privilege -- but then it is pretty obnoxious to ask.

[immune]

204. Well hey,

it was just an idea. Ya know, like re-con, getting into the enemy camp to find out what they're doing and planning. Maybe plant some fake stuff like porno to discredit them and then tell the authorities right where to find it. Reminds me of all those conveniently timed Bin Laden tapes that can survive things like Tora Bora bunker buster bombs. Some kind of technology that is ... video tapes that hold up better in a blast than black boxes.

But I digress .... obnoxiously, of course. :evilgrin:

[deconstruct911]

205. LOL

It's no wonder those tapes survived, look at the bunker system they were protected by:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGhGHxw0mSo

Looking at this forum you can see why Rummy tried and successfully passed that bullshit off.

[immune]

206. Yeah

I can see how it happened and it scares me to death.

As pointed out in the video (watcher responses), Home Depot must've done a land office business the year Osama's cave was redecorated.

In truth, though, Rummy was probably just demonstrating a blueprint of the underground bunkers beneath DC and Denver and projecting them onto Bin Laden.

[zappaman]

207. does anyone know what IMMUNE is talking about...

once again?

[SDuderstadt]

208. I'm not even sure that...

"immune" knows what "immune" is talking about.

[deconstruct911]

210. And all this time

I thought that was the one time HAARP could have been useful. Why does the pentagon need a cartoon from London when they have that multi million dollar project. I say more time on locating all of these "caves" and less time on silly details and cartoons.

[immune]

211. shhhhh ...

We aren't supposed to be able to add two and two.

[zappaman]

212. I'm not sure you can... n/t

[SDuderstadt]

209. "truther logic"...

bombs don't leave debris...everything is uniformly obliterated.

[snooper2]

140. you have no idea...

My wife is in LOVE with the new ski boat we just got...with the title in the glove box..

GREATNESS!!!!!!!!!

[spooked911]

87. well fuck Gage and his fellow thermite scammers

I agree that is ridiculous.

Happily, I have never given them money. I have never accepted money on my site, also.

[SDuderstadt]

88. No one would send you money anyhow...

dude.

Your scam is no less embarrassing than Gage's.

[MrMickeysMom]

126. ...

:P
B'W-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-AAAAH!!!!!

[Bolo Boffin]

127. Reputable non-profits stick to about 10% revenues going to all salaries, benefits, etc.

Laugh it up. If you're giving money to Gage, he's pocketing it.

[immune]

128. And a chunk of it went directly from his pocket, to ....

"The "Building What" ad will appear on thirteen channels including MSNBC, CNN, Comedy Central, HGTV, Logo TV, Bio TV, Versus TV, MSG, Sports NY, VH1, HLN, CNBC and Bravo. We have “roadblocks” scheduled on Wednesday night from 8pm to 9pm and 11pm to midnight. This means that those of you in the New York area who tune in to Keith Olbermann, The Daily Show, Nancy Grace, CNBC, MSG, The Biography Channel and Versus TV at 8pm, and The Daily Show/Colbert Report, Anderson Cooper, Logo TV, and the Biography Channel at 11pm are guaranteed to see the ad."


Bought any advertising lately? It ain't cheap and that's the kind of thing people send money to him to do. Scary, huh?

[SDuderstadt]

129. Funny how "immune" does not...

present a single piece of evidence to support his claim.

[immune]

130. Are you saying

all those stations ran that ad for free? If support is needed to back up a claim, that would be the one.

[SDuderstadt]

131. The question to "immune" was not...

about the expense of TV ads, but rather to provide any evidence at all that Gage personally paid for them.

Stupid post.

[immune]

132. Are you saying

he did not? Who paid for them? Proof please. A cancelled check or debit record will do.

Stupid post.

[SDuderstadt]

133. Another stupid post from...

"immune". It's not my job to prove that someone other than Gage paid for the ads, since it's "IMMUNE'S" claim that Gage did so.

Maybe if Gage is feeling generous, he could contribute some money for critical thinking classes for "immune".

[zappaman]

134. You are the one saying he did

So, back it up.

[SDuderstadt]

135. Isn't it...

sadly amazing that "immune" has to be reminded of what his claim is?

[immune]

136. Your problem isn't who signed the checks ....

your problem is that AE911truth gets donations and some, probably a good bit, of that money is spent disproving the official story. I couldn't give a crap about percentages as long as the job gets done. And that's your real problem .... the job is getting done and people are listening.

All the rest is a bullshit attempt at deflection from the fact that the truth movement is growing legs, and maybe one day soon there will be some big feet attached to those legs to kick a few guilty asses all the way into the next century.

[zappaman]

137. your problem isn't that you deflect every question

your problem is you can back up NOTHING you ever assert.
YOU claimed Gage paid for the ads....just back it up already.

[SDuderstadt]

138. I'm pretty sure it's "immune's"...

problem, since it's "immune's" claim.

Anyone besides "immune" see it differently?

[OnTheOtherHand]

145. "disproving the official story"

I can't think of a single criticism that AE911Truth has leveled at "the official story" that, in my opinion, is legitimate. From what I've seen on this board, I don't think that you can either. That's my problem.

[Bolo Boffin]

139. AE911Truth gets 5% of all money raised by Building What.

And since Gage got 21% of all AE911Truth proceeds in 2009, it could be claimed that 1% of all Building What's revenues are used to pay Richard Gage.

Con games are all about building the percentages. Go to a casino and check out the odds. How much does it take to rake in billions and trillions? Taking, at most, a nickel out of every dollar. Most percentages take two cents or less. The key is VOLUME.

And when you've got the true believers volunteering to increase the volume, Gage is set at 21% to rake in the dough. It's no wonder that Gage spoke recently at a Wealthbuilders conference. He's ready to branch out into multilevel marketing.

[immune]

141. Ask me if I care.

How about you get us a breakdown on the billion plus dollars of taxpayer's money NIST paid to researchers for their "expert opinions" on better ways to build a mouse trap .... someday. How much of it was paid to whom. That was public money and in a "democracy" the expenditures should be public information, as opposed to voluntary donations made to a private organization.

And while you're poking around in the casino's cash drawer, you might ask anyone there which of the two above named entities has the real con game going and how much they'd be willing to bet on the former telling the truth. Ever.

[Bolo Boffin]

142. I would ask you if you cared

If I cared to know.

[wildbilln864]

180. how much does your idolized amazin randy make I wonder? nt

[Bolo Boffin]

183. Your notion of my opinion of James Randi is odd. n/t

[Ghost in the Machine]

151. And James Randi makes $200,000 a year, so what's your point?

:shrug:

[SDuderstadt]

152. Well, among other things...

Randi debunks bullshit, while Gage spreads it around.

[Ghost in the Machine]

153. But their supporters pay to hear what they want to hear...

... what's the difference?

[SDuderstadt]

156. Science, evidence, reason and...

Logic, Ghost. Randi debunks bullshit and Gage concocts it and sells it to his gullible followers, with some of the most laughable nonsense I have seen in a long time. Ryan Mackey eviscerated Gage in a series of debates on "Hardfire".

I predict that, within a few more years, Gage will fade into much-deserved obscurity.

[Ghost in the Machine]

157. While I can understand the point you are making, I still don't see what the fuss is in the OP about

his salary. I have never listened to Gage myself, and only know of him through seeing his name here on this board. As for Ryan Mackey, I have seen him described as a "NASA Engineer" here, so I did some googling, only to find out he is an electrical engineer who designs chases in for electrical wiring in aircraft. What qualifies him to speak on building implosions/demolitions?

People are going to believe what they want to be believe, no matter what, and there are people who are going to sell them what they want. As Bolo Boffin pointed out, "the Pope lives in Vatican City with any luxury at his beck and call"... I think religion is bullshit, but it's a multi-billion dollar industry.

James Randi makes some valid points where "magic" is concerned, but I don't buy *everything* he has to sell... sleight of hand is one thing, but paranormal activity is a totally different ballgame. I'm a firm believer in science and logic, but I have also experienced a couple of things that science and logic simply cannot explain.

Hope all is well with you, my friend...

Peace

[immune]

159. Is this the series of debates you're hollering about?

"It has been brought to my attention today that Mr Mackey is currently "debating" the "Physics of 9/11" without an opponent on a local public access show "Hardfire" with host Ron Wieck. (which by the way, sell DVD's of these shows to raise funds, yet we get accused of "being in it for the money")"

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/lofiversion/index.php?t16647.html

Really? No opponent? That's a debate?

Link please to where they actually debate, man to man.

[Bolo Boffin]

162. Actually, Mark Roberts debated Gage. Mackey debated Szamboti on Hardfire.

Both showings did not go well for Gage or Szamboti.

[immune]

163. Jeez, all I asked for was a link.

Got one?

[Bolo Boffin]

165. No, you did a little more than that.

The first of Roberts and Gage:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3685846057748316809#

The first of Mackey and Szamboti:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1u3KO9kUdE

[immune]

171. The first link doesn't work

The second is another love-in between debunkers ... Hardfire TONY SZAMBOTI / RYAN MACKEY / RONALD WIECK / 1st PROGRAM

I will try to find the Roberts-Gage debate on youtube.

[SDuderstadt]

172. Szamboti is a "truther" and, of course...

"immune" is merely parrotting what some CT website is telling him, without watching the actual debate.

Too funny.

[immune]

174. Well, I'm playing catch-up here on

who all's a debunker and who's a "truther". You all keep throwing out names that I've never heard before which makes for a lot of videos to watch. So far all I've seen this morning are either debunkers talking to themselves or to other debunkers. Unfortunately I'm short on time right now, but I'll snap to it later today. Okay?

[Bolo Boffin]

173. Works for me. Szamboti's not a debunker. n/t

[SDuderstadt]

175. Have you ever encountered anyone...

more uninformed/misinformed than "immune", with the possible exception of D&P and SLAD?

[wildbilln864]

199. ummmm... you ain't either....

you just play one on DU!

[SDuderstadt]

166. Sorry...

got them mixed up. Both Gage and Szamboti got their asses kicked.

[wildbilln864]

198. ah so you're saying....

sduders was fucking wrong! Thank you.

[SDuderstadt]

200. You might want to checkout posts...

#162 & #.168, dude

Duh.

[SDuderstadt]

164. For the life of me...

I don't know why "immune" can't do a little bit of basic research to find the Gage/Mackey debates on "Hardfire. What's even funnier is he immediately accesses a goofy conspiracy theory website in his search for it.

Of course, this is just one of the many reasons no one takes him seriously here. Too funny.

[Bolo Boffin]

167. Gage debated Mark Roberts on Hardfire. n/t

[SDuderstadt]

168. I got the two mixed up...

my mistake. Thanks, Bolo!

[immune]

169. That wasn't a debate, it was a love in.

Arabesque: 9/11 Truth
Thursday, Aug 7, 2008

Mark Roberts is most well known as a 9/11 truth "Debunker".

[SDuderstadt]

170. And, of course...

"immune" has not actually watched any of the debates and, apparently, is under the impression that Mackey must have debated Roberts, given his "that was a love-in" idiocy.

[immune]

176. Okay, I found that one on utube

7:43
Add to Added to queue
9/11 Richard Gage (AIA) Schools Mark Roberts (TourGuide) "9/11 debunker" Mark Roberts gets debunked by a paper published in a peer-reviewed Chemical Physics journal. Active Thermitic Material Discovered ...
by Steeper33 | 1 year ago | 10,802 views

I guess Steeper33 doesn't agree with you on who got debunked, but when I get a minute, I'll go watch the action for myself to see who I agree with, you or the guy who made the above comment.

[Bolo Boffin]

182. I'm on pins and needles anticipating your decision. n/t

[immune]

185. Oh my GOD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFtxm1i0jNg

it was the paint that brought down the towers!!! I had to listen to it twice to make sure I heard him right. Now I have to run out and buy paint remover.

(*chuckles* Even the libertarian guy made more sense than Roberts.)

[Bolo Boffin]

187. Oh, no. My hopes. You have dashed them. n/t

[zappaman]

184. can't wait for your reasoned anaylsis

"I guess Steeper33 doesn't agree with you on who got debunked, but when I get a minute, I'll go watch the action for myself to see who I agree with, you or the guy who made the above comment."

[Bolo Boffin]

154. And the Pope lives in Vatican City with any luxury at his beck and call.

And his followers pay to hear what they want as well.

[Ghost in the Machine]

155. Very good... so, again, what was your original point?

:shrug:

[Bolo Boffin]

158. Oh, Ghost does not understand what my original point was.

Tell me why I should care about this.

[Ghost in the Machine]

160. Apparently you don't have a point, other than someone makes 75 grand a year?

Are you jealous or something? If so, more education, or a career change, might be a good idea for you....

[Bolo Boffin]

161. Your not understanding what my point is does not mean I don't have a point. Try again.

Tell me a reason, one reason, any reason why I should care that you don't understand my point.

[Ghost in the Machine]

177. I honestly don't care if you care that I don't understand your point..

.. so what's your point?

[Bolo Boffin]

181. You still aren't convincing me that I need to worry about your questions.

If I felt you had an iota of actual curiosity, I might deal with your question.

But since my point is easily understood, and given your history in dealing with me, I confess that I find no reason at all to bother answering your question. Help me out. Give me one.

[Ghost in the Machine]

186. No, your point isn't easily understood...

There are several ways your post could be taken:

Is your point that Gage makes a salary?

Is your point that he made the lion's share of the salary, $75,450, while the rest of the $107,417 was split between the others? If so, how many others were paid a salary and how much were they paid?

Is your point that you are trying to act like an authoritarian and tell others what to do with their money? "There are FAR better uses for your money than AE911Truth."

What's your point? If it's so simple, just spit it out and quit tap dancing around it... all you're doing right now is making yourself look like a fool who can't answer a simple question, nor elucidate/elaborate on your own post.

[Bolo Boffin]

188. Nope. Still haven't seen a reason why I should deal with your concern.

I've already said your inability to understand my point doesn't bother me. So insisting that you don't understand my point isn't going to sway me. And insulting me certainly isn't going to help. Try something else.

[Ghost in the Machine]

189. I guess either you're just not intelligent enough to get your point across then..

... or you don't really have a point to begin with. Which is it?

[Bolo Boffin]

190. I've already told you. Insulting me won't help persuade me to deal with your concern.

Perhaps you should try some other tactic to persuade me to deal with your concern.

[Ghost in the Machine]

191. I don't need you to deal with it, since you apparently can't.. I'll just draw my own conclusions n/t

[Bolo Boffin]

192. That would be best. n/t

[mrarundale]

197. How many billions did Larry Silverstein get from insurance

along with a refund of his initial down payment to Port Authority? Why doesn't that bother you?

OTOH, I do not support 9-11 "truth" organizations, because you can't make "truth" out of lies, and people need to research for themselves, not trust (probably) infiltrated organizations which use (possibly) leaked misinformation to draw their conclusions...you may be surprised at what you find...

[LARED]

202. A more complete question would be

how many billion did Silverstien lose or gain after the insurance paid him for his losses.

I find it amazing how uninformed truthers are about basic institutions like insurance. I'm no insuance expert but if you don't understand that insureance pays for your losses then it's no surprise that after more than nine years they have nothing.

[mrarundale]

213. what, exactly, did he "lose" Lared?

other than difficult to lease, ugly towers filled with lawsuit provoking asbestos? and don't say they were full, because I have checked a number of the alleged businesses in them and most do not exist...


Good thing poor Lar had the foresight to get insured for terrorist acts only several months before the "attacks", I wonder if I could get terror insurance than hire someone to blow my house up, then get reimbursed twice for it. Is that the way insurance works Lared? Tell me ... tell me about being insured for acts of terror and the companies in Bermuda that specialize in that sort of thing, I really want to know! I could use a couple billion dollars, help me figure this thing out..

[SDuderstadt]

215. "Ugly towers"?

Dude, most of your posts are so absurd, they require no response.

This is one of those posts.

[mrarundale]

217. OK, "beautiful" asbestos laden, unleaseable towers

beauty is in the eye of the beholder: I prefer the centuries old, brick or masonry buildings that housed thousands of small businesses before they were stolen from them to build those monstrosities (IMO)...Never saw the old buildings, before my time, but I've seen pictures and it makes me sick to think of the craftmanship and livelihoods that were lost...

[SDuderstadt]

218. Dude...please provide some sources for the...

"asbestos-laden" and "unleasable" claims. Do you even know what the occupancy rates of the towers were?

[Bolo Boffin]

219. The towers were above 95% occupancy.

[ryan_cats]

222. You obviously don't know what was there...

You obviously don't know what was there previously. It was called radio row and it looked and was dilapidated.

Only one tower had asbestos in it and that only up to the 40th floor? It's actually in the 30s but I can't remember the exact floor so 40 should cover it.

[LARED]

221. 'help me figure this thing out'.

Sorry

Based on your ridiculous response it would be a waste of time. After all you have it all figured out. My explaining reality to you would be like the student trying to teach the Zen master.

[wildbilln864]

214. authoritarian:

One who accepts a particular doctrine as true because it has been stated by someone whose views are not open to question.


and,
1. Of, relating to, or favoring blind submission to authority.

[SDuderstadt]

216. Cool, bill...

now point specifically to where any of us here do that. Take your time.

[Bolo Boffin]

220. Excellent, so I'm NOT an authoritarian!

Thanks, wildbill!