Flight 93 Did Not Crash In Shanksville it continued flying over Indian Lake

[Domenick]

Part I : The Crash Site & Crater and Origins Thereof

To date the FBI has not presented anything near enough evidence to support the claims of over 90% of United Airlines Flight 93 being recovered from the Shanksville crash site. The only piece of recognizable debris in the 10’ deep hole is part on an engine. Coincidentally enough one witness I spoke with who stood in front of that hole that morning swore up and down to me there was no way there was an entire airplane in it. He stated that he had flown on plenty of commercial airliners in his life and was well familiar with how large they are and told me that the hole was more like the size of an engine than an entire plane.

Of all the witnesses I spoke with, including Coroner Wally Miller, I waited for one of them to describe to me the massive 100’ gash in the ground caused by the impacting wings yet not one of them ever made any mention of this. But like all the other witnesses I have spoken with even Wally Miller when recalling the event was still astonished at the size of it. He wanted to clarify that the images most people seen showing this big hole in the ground were after the work had been done there and what it was that morning resembled nothing of the sort.

Bob Blair and Doug Miller were driving on Route 30 that morning. Suddenly they noticed a low flying plane flying with its wings vertical to the ground. As they approached Stoystown Auto Wreckers they watched it disappear behind the treeline. Not long thereafter they noticed smoke rising up and drove towards it. As they approached the crash site someone driving away from it in a pickup truck flagged them down and told them a plane had crashed and then drove off away from the scene. Was this Lee Purbaugh? At this time one can only assume.

Bob and Doug said when they arrived at the scene there was no one else present. Bob stated whoever they had passed had to be the 1st person to see as they were no doubt 2nd & 3rd . What they found when they got there astonished them. There was nothing. There were some fires. Bob and Doug immediately grabbed the fire extinguishers they carry in the work truck and extinguished what fires there were before the arrival of Stoystown Fire Department .

Both had stated they did not see neither human remains nor any recognizable airplane debris. Bob further stated he saw a burning tire that they had a heard time extinguishing and something that resembled a gear box as he called. Both corroborated others stories of how small the crater actually was.

What I find most troubling is that it took me nearly 5 minutes to drive to the crash site from Stoystown Auto Wreckers and Rollock Scrap Yard is less than 100 yards from the crash site and yet none of their employees seemed to have gone out to the scene. Instead it was Bob & Doug arriving several minutes later.

Personally, I think the lack of witnesses from Rollock and the man driving away from the scene all saw something else but we’ll save that for later.

In between where Bob & Doug saw the plane and its alleged final resting place was Viola Saylor. Outside in her backyard that morning Viola heard the massive roar of the planes engines as it passed by just above the treetops on her property. She was walking towards her backdoor when the plane came screaming directly over her house right at her. She described feeling a “pressure” as it passed overhead and said it had taken the leaves off the tops of the trees . And it passed. And then the noise was gone. Everything became real quiet and she heard someone in the distance scream “Oh my God!!!”. Then there was a thud.

Viola lived very close to the crash site at that time. Had the plane crashed as alleged she would have never had noticed a silence let alone hear someone cry out in the distance before it impacted. The plane was traveling over at an alleged 500mph.

Since Lee Purbaugh the only alleged impact witness chose not to speak with me after receiving advice from an attorney I have to turn to Susan McElwain for what took place next.

Susan was on the opposite end of Viola. She was driving north that morning on Bridge St. in Stoystown less than a mile southwest of the crash site. First lets talk about what Susan did not see on her side of the crash site : a 757. Allegedly while Susan is approaching the stop sign and her experience takes place a 757 is diving towards the ground less than a mile in front of her. Susan did not see one because it was already gone.

As for where it went that we’ll get into later.

Suddenly a small white plane passes right over Susan’s vehicle flying so low to the ground it has to pull up in order to avoid crashing into the row of trees at the Bridge St & Buckstown Rd intersection. It is so low in fact that Susan’s first thoughts were “Oh my God, he’s gonna crash, he’s gonna crash”. The plane vanished behind the treeline and seconds later a smoke cloud began to rise.

In between both of these witnesses are 2 witnesses I am not making public per their request but who have told me their stories in detail even after initially denying seeing anything.

One woman’s husband witnessed the whole event. He is deceased now. She would not tell me what he told her but elected to say “I can only tell you what I saw”. Her husband was on the porch when it happened. She was in the house. She heard a thud. Puzzled by it she went outside to see what had happened. When she got out there she noticed her husband was looking off towards the trees and that there was a small little white plane in the sky. She said seconds later she began to notice smoke rising up over the treeline directly below this “strange little white plane” as she described it. She then further corroborated Susan’s description of it but adding that it had a small window on the front which led her to believe it had an occupant. When I inquired as to whether it was capable of carrying passengers like a small corporate plane she clearly stated this was not possible.

Also outside at this time was her neighbor who I also spoke with. The neighbor arrived outside after the smoke had started to rise but other than that corroborated every single other detail the previous witness stated.

Southwest of the crash site was the Salt Mill where Rick Chaney was working when this event took place. Rick felt a rumble and noticed everyone else seemed to be heading to go outside. He then followed. When he got outside he described seeing a small white plane which he too confirmed was not any type of passenger plane or corporate plane and could not accommodate groups of people. Said it looked military but not like anything he had ever seen before and that it made him think it was some sort of scout plane or something similar.

The other inconsistency is that the blast trajectory of the impact and the flight path conflict. One aerial photo clearly demonstrates the blast trajectory into the woods is in a southwest direction while Viola’s house is located northwest. Indian Lake is southeast of the crash site. This little fact was argued about with me by Wally Miller who insisted Indian Lake was in the direction of the trajectory but clearly this is not true.


Part II : If Not Shanksville Then Where?

In Loose Change : Final Cut Indian Lake Mayor Barry Lichty elaborates on his experience that morning. He says the power had gone off and he felt a tremor and then he heard what “sounded like a missile” come over his house because it was “going that fast”. Then he states that it “was coming from that direction” .

Barry says it wasn’t the aircraft that crashed though because Flight 93 never flew anywhere near of over Indian Lake according to the official story of it. But that’s because Barry has no reason to suspect the government is lying to him. There is no other explanation for what went screaming from the crash site immediately after the explosion than it was the plane witnessed by Bob, Doug, & Viola which if it continued to fly would have been in a direct path with Indian Lake.

Viola said that in order for the plane to have crashed the way they said it did compared to the way it was when she saw it the plane would have had to pull up and then nose dive into the ground which of course is aerodynamically impossible. It is interesting also to note that Viola turned down an opportunity to be an Official Ambassador at the Flight 93 Memorial because “I wouldn’t go along with the stories”.

So how do we get from the crash site to Indian Lake? Is there any witness in between the two to confirm this flight path?

The answer is yes and who it is will surprise you : Val McClatchey.

Val McClatchey lives Southeast of the crash site directly in between the site and Indian Lake. On the morning of 9/11 Val was sitting on her couch when she first heard Flight 93 fly over head. The problem is Flight 93 never flew over her house. After she heard the plane she said she looked outside the window and caught a glimpse of it before it crashed. But knowing what I know from all the other eyewitnesses this simply cannot be true.

She only could have heard Flight 93 flyover towards the crash site as Susan did not see the plane and I have corroborated her claims of the small white plane being there at the exact time with the other eyewitness discussed earlier.

Claims of Flight 93 flying over Indian Lake can be found in every local paper in Pennsylvania and lists a group of names for being having heard the plane fly overhead including : Indian Lake Marina Manager Jim Brandt, Indian Lake Marina Employees John Fleegle and Carol Delasko, Indian Lake Golf Course Employee Chris Smith, and Jim Stop who was reportedly fishing in Indian Lake and actually watched the plane fly overhead. According to the Pittsburgh Tribune Review Jim witnessed the plane losing pieces as it flew over.

No one at Indian Lake can ever hear Flight 93 flyover if the official story is true. Indian Lake is 3 miles southeast of the alleged impact site. No one witnessed Flight 93 approach the crashsite from the Southeast but from the Northwest. This indicates the plane continued on past the alleged impact spot in a direct line most likely ascending.

Part III : What Happened to the Passengers?

This is always the last question people have when told a plane did not crash in the Shanksville field. Which while we’re at it isn’t even really Shanksville but Lambertsville. This is just another thing the American people have been lied to about. But onto the story of Wally Miller and human remains…..

Not one person witnessed human remains at the Flight 93 crash site on 9/11. Despite many people searching for remains of anything throughout the immediate area none were seen. Naturally I found this to be very surprising when Wally Miller showed me the photographs he took on the following day after stating he too did not discover any remains on the 11th.

The photographs Wally took showed very little evidence of human remains. So little one could attribute it all to coming from one human being. There were several photos of a severed left arm, a couple which appeared to be a human scalp, and lastly a couple of what appeared to be an organ perhaps a heart or lung it was hard to distinguish in the photo. The amazing part is that all of these remains photographed by Wally on the 12th were in plain view laying in dirt. The only dirt in the vicinity is the dirt road which the plane allegedly crashed by. Everyone was traveling up and down this road and many people wondered off into the area of the blast trajectory into the woods. None reported seeing any such thing and let me tell you the half an arm would have easily been noticed.

Wally Miller never found a drop of blood at the crash site. Despite a severed arm laying in dirt along with what appeared to be internal organs none of them left a single trace of blood where they were recovered.

Instead the FBI recovered the remains and proceeded to bring them into the DMORT facility they erected for Miller and the task of identifying the deceased. The FBI then in turn would bring the remains to Miller without any proper documentation of their chain of custody or place of location.

The FBI also provided Miller the list of names of who he would find and provided samples of those said individuals to Miller.

So they gave Miller the names of the victims, the remains of the victims, & the DNA samples to test against those remains to confirm their identities. The FBI took Wally Miller by the hand and led him down the path of the deceived. And with that they accomplished their necessary ending to their story in Shanksville.

That is my conclusion based on over 2.5 years researching hands on with many many hours logged interviewing eyewitnesses in person, over the phone, through email, & on video. Taken their accounts and seeing how they fit with the little one sentences released by the corporate media of other witnesses and putting the puzzle together.

Ultimately I cannot tell you what happened to the plane that fly in front of Bob Blair & Doug Miller, passed Viola Saylor, & then heard flying overhead by McClatchey and all the Indian Lake residents. But I can tell you it did not crash in a field in Lambertsville on the morning of 9/11 and the case made that it did by the US Government and 9/11 Commission and corporate media fails epically to scrutiny and a new fully open public transparent hearing is necessary to finally finding out and understanding the truth of what really happened on the morning of 9/11.

Recommended links :

Flight 93 Shanksville : 9/11 Truth

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4i6mBekt-8>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4i6mBekt-8


9/11 : The Shanksville Files Vol I : Susan McElwain :

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8051395578107358759&ei=NMunSa_hB4qsrALV0pCfAQ&q=susan+mcelwain&hl=en>http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=80...+mcelwain&hl=en

9/11 : The Shanksville Files Vol II : Wally Miller :

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2456935081384261617&ei=VsunSdLHC5TWqALcz4XrDw&q=wally+miller&hl=en>http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=24...ly+miller&hl=en

9/11 : The Shanksville Files Vol III : Viola Saylor :

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4294299673604153311&ei=dcunSZWuKpK-rwKM4Y3mCg&q=viola+saylor&hl=en>http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4...la+saylor&hl=en

Pandora’s Black Box Vol III : Flight of United 93 :

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1695850318850681282&ei=mMunSY6yM5PiqQL9wqj0Cw&q=pandoras+black+box&hl=en>http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1...black+box&hl=en

Loose Change : Final Cut :

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3719259008768610598&ei=Es2nSa3iL5LQjwKOrcCAAg&q=loose+change+final+cut&hl=en>http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3...final+cut&hl=en


Pittsburgh Post Gazette Coverage of Flight 93 :

http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/93index9.asp>http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/93index9.asp

Pittsburgh Tribune review Flight 93 archives :

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/search/?searchwords=flight+93&searchoption=%2Fx%2Fsearch%2F&x=20&y=15>http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/search/?se...ch%2F&x=20&y=15

[Make7]

1. Most of your links aren't working - here are working versions:

Edited to add info on text in square brackets

Flight 93 Shanksville : 9/11 Truth:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4i6mBekt-8


9/11 : The Shanksville Files Vol I : Susan McElwain :

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8051395578107358759


9/11 : The Shanksville Files Vol II : Wally Miller :

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2456935081384261617


9/11 : The Shanksville Files Vol III : Viola Saylor :

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4294299673604153311


Pandora’s Black Box Vol III : Flight of United 93 :

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1695850318850681282


Loose Change : Final Cut :

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3719259008768610598


Pittsburgh Post Gazette Coverage of Flight 93 :

http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/93index9.asp


Pittsburgh Tribune review Flight 93 archives :

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/search/?searchwords=flight+93

You don't need to use anchor tags or url tags for links here at DU. The software will automatically create a link for you when you put a web address into your post. If you want to create a link with text instead of the web address, you can use the link command.

    [link:www.google.com|custom text]

Just remember to remove the http:// from the web address when copying it into the link command - if you leave it in, it won't work.

For more information on allowed html code on DU, check out their html table.

- Make7
 

On edit:

I just noticed that some text in your post was enclosed in square brackets. For example, from your 4th paragraph:

Domenick wrote:

Bob and Doug said when they arrived at the scene there was no one else present. Bob stated whoever they had passed had to be the 1st person to see as they were no doubt 2nd & 3rd . What they found when they got there astonished them. There was nothing. There were some fires. Bob and Doug immediately grabbed the fire extinguishers they carry in the work truck and extinguished what fires there were before the arrival of Stoystown Fire Department [who contrary to popular belief were the 1st responders, not Shanksville].

Unfortunately since the html commands use square brackets on this site, it means that anything in square brackets will try to be interpreted by the software as a command rather than text. This can lead to strange things happening depending on the first letter of the text - although in your case it seems to have simply made the text disappear. In the future, try replacing any square brackets in the text of your post with parentheses or curly braces to avoid any problems.
 

[planeman]

7. that is very kind of you mr7-now do you have anything to contribute

of substance to the actual op?
thank you.

[Domenick]

30. thank you so much for the help and the advice!!

obviously im a noob here....lol

[Make7]

114. No problem. We were all new here once. ( n/t )

[Ghost in the Machine]

2. Great post, Domenick... welcome to DU

The official flight path and the eye/ear witnesses at the Indian Lake Marina, the lake itself & the Indian Lake Community have never jibed, have they? What flew over the Marina so low and fast that it made the building rumble and the lights flicker?

I've always wondered how the DNA could have been manipulated/made up. If the FBI was handling the DNA identification process, and Coroner Miller was merely labeling the body parts found, they could have come from anywhere... like an FBI forensics lab or something.


I'm not totally sure what happened that day either, but the evidence and the official story still don't add up...


Peace,

Ghost

[Domenick]

31. thank you!!! correct indian lake clearly is the smoking gun!!!

there is no way the plane that flew over viola saylors house could have made the damage seen by the blast trajectory.

even coroner wally miller tried arguing with me about where indian lake is located. in my interview he insists the lake is in the same direction of the blast trajectory. i didn't bother to argue it with him though....i pointed out his error and he insisted he was right and i just let it go.

[Bolo Boffin]

37. So that's Mark Roberts AND Wallace Miller who now refuse to argue with you?

Interesting.

[Domenick]

41. mark roberts backed out of a debate he issued on hardfire...

he labeled me a no planer and refused to debate me.

i told him i believe planes struck the world trade center but it didnt matter. he insisted that i first acknowledge that united airlines flight 93 crashed in shanksville.

i told him that even if a plane did crash there it was never positively identified as being united airlines flight 93.

wally miller did not want to meet with me. he did so as a favor to his state rep. it is what it is. now that i've spoken with miller and understand how everything happened i understand why he didn't want to meet with anyone who knew what they were talking about and can put two and two together......

[Bolo Boffin]

43. More revelations about the situation

Mark Roberts refusing to entertain your fantasies about what happened at Shanksville isn't based in fear of what you could do to him argumentatively. It's more like mercy for you.

And now intimations that Wallace Miller is a part of the coverup. It seems that Mark was right in leaving you to your fantasies.

[planeman]

56. is that what roberts tell you from his comfort zone on the JrandiFUCK forum

hardly surprising

Go run back to him on jref and tell him to get back over here so we can debate this openly.

[Bolo Boffin]

63. Yes, it couldn't be your winning personality that drives people away.

:eyes:

[planeman]

68. have you seen the behaviour of some of your jref colleagues.

their personalities are a fine example are they not.

tell roberts(gravy) to come back on du and accept the challenge.

[Bolo Boffin]

72. Yours is more in evidence here.

Not a messenger service. Find Roberts on your own.

[Domenick]

97. i didn't say wally miller was participating in a cover up anywhere....

i say the fbi gave miller everything he needed to find everything they needed for an official story. this means miller was played like a fiddle not actively participating.

[Bolo Boffin]

101. And so why did he refuse to talk to you when you showed that "you knew more" than he thought?

Of course you're suggesting that Miller is participating in the coverup. Please don't sugarcoat your positions.

[Domenick]

102. if miller refused to talk to me then how did i release a 45 minute interview of me and him?

my responsibility to the fallen is to document each persons account.

not to argue with those people about it.

[Bolo Boffin]

103. You said:

wally miller did not want to meet with me. he did so as a favor to his state rep. it is what it is. now that i've spoken with miller and understand how everything happened i understand why he didn't want to meet with anyone who knew what they were talking about and can put two and two together......

I admit to a minor misreading. I thought miller had talked and then stopped talking to you. He actually did an interview. OK.

However you are implying there that he is part of the coverup. You "understand why he didn't want to meet with anyone who knew what they were talking about" -- that can only mean that Miller is part of the coverup, in your view.

Stop sugarcoating what you are saying. You are saying Miller is part of the coverup.

[Domenick]

112. no again not quite.....

im saying other than half of a left arm and a couple of internal organs on 9/12 wally miller didn't photograph or recover anything.

it was all recovered by the fbi and brought to him. from where? from wherever the fbi or you want to say. since no one documented it you cant prove it and i cant disprove it.

but i can.

because the plane went on and flew over indian lake.

jim stop was fishing there and even watched it fly overhead.

do you know what the residents there were calling and reporting to 911?

[hack89]

3. "Not one person witnessed human remains at the Flight 93 crash site on 9/11."

these first responders might disagree:

"After calling for backup from several area fire companies, King and the other firefighters, who had never responded to an airplane crash, surveyed the scene. None of them was prepared for what they saw. King recalls the paper strewn in the trees and clothing and shoes scattered on the ground. There were no bodies, he says. Just body parts. 'That's when the sheer destruction of the crash really hit home,' he says."


http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/sept11stonycreekjan02.p...

King is also the Assistant Fire Chief of the Shanksville Volunteer Fire Department. He was one of the first emergency workers at the scene of the crash.

The morning of the crash, King was watching the events of Sept. 11th unfold on television in disbelief. King called his sister, and as they were talking, she paused and told him that she could hear a low flying jet flying near her house. King knew all planes were ordered out of the sky, but kept in mind that some of the planes were reported missing. Seconds later, the plane hit, the impact shaking the town. King ran to the firehall, jumped into the fire truck with 4 other firefighters and raced off to the crash site.

"I felt it was too coincidental not to be related to what was going on. I didn't think that Shanksville was a target of terrorists attacks, I just didn't know what was going on,' said King. He was not sure what scene to expect at the crash site. When King and his crew arrived, they saw what smoking pieces remained of the plane. “There were small pieces everywhere and small signs of human remains. It was total destruction.”



Excerpts from "Courage After the Crash: Flight 93" by Glenn J. Kashurba. SAJ Publishing, 2002.

King: "We stopped and I opened the door. The smell of jet fuel was overpowering. I will never forget that smell; it is really burnt into my mind. ...I walked down the power line and got my first glimpse of human remains. Then I walked a little further and saw more."
"

Firefighter Mike Sube: "We made our way to a small pond. That's where I observed the largest piece of wreckage that I saw, a portion of the landing gear and fuselage. One of the tires was still intact with the bracket, and probably about three to five windows of the fuselage were actually in one piece lying there. ...There were enough fires that our brush truck was down there numerous times. ... I saw small pieces of human remains and occasionally some larger pieces. That was disturbing, but what was most disturbing was seeing personal effects."

Lieutenant Roger Bailey, Somerset Volunteer Fire Department: "We started down through the debris field. I saw pieces of fiberglass, pieces of airplane, pop rivets, and mail...Mail was scattered everywhere. ... the one guy who was with us almost stepped on a piece of human remains. I grabbed him, and he got about half woozy over it."


When former firefighter Dave Fox arrived at the scene, "He saw a wiring harness, and a piston. None of the other pieces was bigger than a TV remote. He saw three chunks of torn human tissue. He swallowed hard. 'You knew there were people there, but you couldn't see them,' he says."

[planeman]

6. Mr hack can you read-Domonic said that NO ONE ON 911 SAW HUMAN

REMAINS.

the sources you quote came out 6 months to a year after 911.
Plenty of time for indoctrination and manipulation-please dont link to that infested slimy crap espoused by mark roberts-he cannot debate his way out of a wet paper bag.Domonic has challenged him and Roberts has run away.

[hack89]

8. So every interview in the OP that was not given on 911 can be ignored ? nt

[planeman]

11. what about that Guuntanmo UK detainee who says that the US tried

to force him into saying he was a terrorist and then they would release him-LOL!
Mr Hack lives in a delusional fantasy where the guberment never does anything bad.LOL!

[hack89]

13. They do lots of bad things

doesn't mean that they are responsible for every bad thing in the world.

[planeman]

17. no it just mean s they are capable of doing bad things-911 included.

[hack89]

18. True - but you still need real evidence, not real emotions. nt

[planeman]

25. The evididence is the logic. a 600mph crash will not a leave a tiny 20 foot crater in the ground

A plane cannot reach 600 mph at sea level anyway.Much less fly upside down at that speed!
itis called logic.

the only emotions running high are from people like you who allow your emotions to overcome logical reasoning.

[hack89]

28. Except you can't prove that either

unsubstantiated assumptions are proof of nothing. Remember, when asked for any proof, all you could tell me is to buy some obscure book? As if there is not a ton of information on aerodynamics and flight characteristics on the internet?

[planeman]

54. Oh yes i can Mr hack and i have already done so.

If you hade any evidence to refute my earlier claims of unattainable speed you would have produced it by now.

The book is not obscure.the fact is that you are too lazy to go and buy it.
Help yourself to a copy mr hack
http://www.alibris.co.uk/booksearch.detail?S=R&bid=9819941561&cm_mmc=shopcompare-_-base-_-isbnUK-_-na

[Domenick]

42. indian lake is real evidence....

please tell me when the flight flew over indian lake as described by :

val mcclatchey
mayor barry lichty
marina owner jim brandt
marina manager john fleegle
marina employee carol delasko
golf course groundskeeper chris smith
jim stop fishing on the lake in a boat at that time.

[hack89]

48. Government disinformation

a good way to hide the truth is to send the seekers in the wrong direction. Confusion and deception go hand in hand - if the government could get eyewitnesses to lie about the crash, why would they stop there? You have to first show that your witnesses are more credible than those that disagree with your CT - you can't.

I think you got suckered - look where you are seven years down the road.

[planeman]

55. because you hav e to marry physical evidence with the testimony

Mr hack

lee purbaugh is the only person to have seen fl93 in its last moments-yet he did not see it fly upside down

even thought the ntsb fdr data has the plane flying upside down in its final descent.

Another contradiction that you cannot resolve because somewhere someone is lying.and you believe them.

[Domenick]

99. yes but purbaugh is compromised....

he says the plane impacted.

it did not.

it continued on. susan mcelwain didn't see it approaching because it had already passed and continued on over indian lake.

[Domenick]

98. no real citizen information....

so if the plane didn't fly over indian lake where did the plane that viola saylor, bob blair, & doug miller all told me they saw end up?

in an 8 foot deep hole in some empty field at the end of a road?

[hack89]

108. So firemen and other volunteer first responders aren't "real citizens" ?

do you realize how ridiculous you sound? If you ever take time to reflect on why the truth community is so tiny and marginalize, go back and look at statements like this.

[planeman]

122. Umm he has interviewed the witnesses unlike you-you have no right

to say anything.

[Name removed]

129. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hack89]

14. But you prove my point.

The Guantanamo detainee told us he was coerced. Show me a single Flt 93 witness that says he was coerced by the government. You know you can't.

[planeman]

19. What?- if the guantanomo prisoner had gone along with the US plan

he would have been released.and the condition of that release was that he not reveal how he was tortured.but the prisoner had the courage to stand up and talk.
If the fl93 families/responders-whoever are too fucking spineless to stand up and admit that they are being coerced that is their problem.it means people like me will point out the coerced lies that they spout.

[hack89]

20. Of course - the only heroes here are the truthers.

I keep forgetting what a dismal view truthers have of their fellow men and women.

[planeman]

23. anyone who re-inforces bullshit like Burnett, Glick or whover deserve to be challenged.

I have not seen either the war totting Deena Burnett or Liz Glick or any of the other gun totting relatives of fl93 dispute the innocent civilian lives lost in Afghanistan and Iraq.
(excluding the likes of Saddam and the Taliban of course)

[hack89]

21. Except you can prove they were coerced

except that they disagree with you. Sounds like perfect circular reasoning.

[planeman]

24. Could you prove the that Guantanomo prisoner was coerced?

No- the proof came from him because he decided to stand up and be brave.
If others are not brave- it does not nmean they were not coerced.

[hack89]

27. Yes I can

soon as he could he told the truth. Just like all the other 911 witnesses. You are not the only truthful person in the America.

[planeman]

51. Susan Mclewin tell the truth so does Viola Saylor.

But you choose to ignore them.
Jim Stop tells the truth but you choose to ignore him.

The time has come for you to stop ignoring them and accept the truth that no plane crashed in shanksville.

[hack89]

53. I don't ignore them - they are simply in the minority

I just don't expect every witness account to agree. The majority of the eyewitness accounts support the official story. If you can't account for their stories with resorting to vast government conspiracies then perhaps your evidence is not as strong as you think.

[planeman]

57. They do- you see this is where you guys are so wrong

actaully when you break down "the majority" you find that they support an laternative hypothesis like Domonick has shown.

[hack89]

71. Only after you dismiss the majority as lier's.

please be honest.

[planeman]

76. what is the majority-lets see some research into this -i have studied intensily the

the witness testimony

and those closest to the crash hardly re-inforce the official story,

[Domenick]

104. you dont know what the majority of eyewitness accounts supports....

for example the media states bob blair & doug miller watched the plane crash into the trees.

they were miles away on route 30 by stoystown auto wreckers. bob told me the plane was still very high when he saw it and that the wings were vertical to the ground so it was sort of on its side.

then it disappeared from their site because of the topography of the land. pennsylvania is all hills and mountains. it still took them several minutes to drive to the site from where they saw it.

[hack89]

110. I believe the first responders and the people that worked at the crash site.

all of whom reported human remains, jet fuel and wreckage. It will take more than unproven conspiracy theories or the wholesale dismissal of "unbelievers" as liars to make me change your mind.

[planeman]

126. the very 1st responder you have seen has either changed his testimony

or had his testimony misinterpreted by the media.

Address the issue.

[Domenick]

131. its clear the writers embelished the account of firefighter rick king

there is no evidence he ever made those statements. the actual video that exists of his account completely contradicts these printed versions.

[Domenick]

130. how many of those people have you spoken with?

oh yeah, none.

you believe corporate paid propagandists who write what they're told.

[hack89]

9. So star witnesses Bob Blair and Doug Miller

have reported no attempts of "indoctrination and manipulation". How could that be? And how have they been able to walk around exposing the plot without retribution by the government?

[planeman]

10. ignorance is more powerful than exposure.

Doug Miller can talk all he wants-but if there is no amplification of his message who will know?people like me and you on forums like this.
Domonic is trying to amplify his message-with no help from people like you.

[hack89]

16. So does Domenick have any evidence

that Bob Blair and Doug Miller were exposed to "indoctrination and manipulation"? Or is that a non-existent message that can't be amplified?

[planeman]

22. Bob and Doug said there were no remains to be found on 911

"Bob and Doug said when they arrived at the scene there was no one else present. Bob stated whoever they had passed had to be the 1st person to see as they were no doubt 2nd & 3rd . What they found when they got there astonished them. There was nothing. There were some fires. Bob and Doug immediately grabbed the fire extinguishers they carry in the work truck and extinguished what fires there were before the arrival of Stoystown Fire Department ."

they arrived before the so called firemen and 1st responders who gave their accounts in a book published 1 year later.

just like Jim Stop who saw parts falling off the plane(or a plane spraying parts on purpose)
their message is not amplified.

[hack89]

26. But is there any evidence that they were coerced to change their testimony

isn't that your point - that everyone saw the same thing they did but are lying about it? Surely the FBI tried to get them to lie and surely they told Domenick.

[Domenick]

35. where do i claim bob and doug were 'indoctrinated' into anything?

i spoke with bob blair for a year of my life.

during that year we had many conversations about his account and other peoples we both knew.

[hack89]

45. You don't

planeman is claiming that any post-911 eyewitness accounts that support the official story must be ignored because of government "indoctrination and manipulation" - in other words everyone is lying if they don't support a no-planes CT. If that was the case, logic dictates that they would have attempted to convince Bob and Doug to change their statements.

In your investigation, did you see any evidence of government "indoctrination and manipulation" of any witnesses at Shanksville?

[Domenick]

96. yes i know of this type of activity occurring with witnesses in the area....

i know of a few people who the fbi spent "days" with.....

bob blair never spoke to the fbi.

viola saylor never spoke to the fbi.

the fbi did not like what mrs. mcelwain had to say and told her she just didn't know what a commercial airliner looks like.

the fbi told people at the salt mill they saw a corporate jet above the mushroom cloud as soon as they could get outside when all of them know and rick chaney confirmed to me as did susan, viola, and others that it was not a corporate jet and could not accomodate passengers other than a pilot.

doug miller spoke to the fbi. they told him the white plane he saw was a c130 cargo plane. i asked doug if it had propellers on each wing. he said no. i told him all c130's did. doug didn't want to talk about his account anymore after that. bob blair also confirmed to me there was no way the plane he and doug saw together was a c130 and he didn't believe it to be a corporate jet either.

[Domenick]

34. they're honest people telling the truth....

ever notice when it comes time to hear the shanksville story you dont get to actually hear the witnesses themselves tell the story?

its always some media head or pop mechanics idiot....

after alex jones saw my interview with susan mcelwain the history channel hurried to track her down and interview her to discredit me and her. they included her in their debunking 911 conspiracies crapumentary and only had her talk about what she saw after the explosion and pretended that was her story......

the fbi can't murder everyone in shanksville/stoystow/indian lake etc.....

they can count on people like you not tracking any of them down and turning to hollywood produced versions of the event instead though.

nothing to see here go back to sleep zombies......

[hack89]

50. Your burden must be heavy at times like this

seven years down the road and no one is willing to recognize your unique wisdom and courage. How do you bear being with all the sheeple that can't see your genius?

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hack89]

109. At least you will have a lifetime hobby.

or are you going to become a Birther like Berg - heard that's where the real CT action is now days.

[Domenick]

32. wow mark roberts tried to use rick king against me too look what happened to him....

claim #1 : There were no bodies, he says. Just body parts. -firefighter rick king.

source : http://web.archive.org/web/20030310095608/http://www.psats.org/sept11+stonycreek+jan02.pdf

rebuttal : "and i'm just looked around and no people, and i'm thinking where are the people" - firefighter rick king.

source : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fU-FyKAL9A

claim #2 : “There were small pieces everywhere and small signs of human remains. It was total destruction.” - firefighter rick king.

source : URL=http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:5HUtBBj9o3MJ:911digitalarchive.org/REPOSITORY/MISC_COLLECTIONS/janet_frank_atkinson/Flight_93_unedited.doc

rebuttal : here is another interview with rick king where while describing the crash site in detail he makes no mention of seeing anything resembling human remains and states :

"we did a couple searches of the woods, sent firemen in they kept coming back...nothing. i mean you didn't even see any evidence of humans at all..."

which leads king to even think maybe it was just a pilot and copilot -since they didn't see any human remains anywhere.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvCn4rNdjSE&feature=PlayList&p=5192FBF1371ECB6A&index=28

again rick king in 2 seperate interviews where he mentions there were no remains versus 2 links provided by mark roberts.

sorry mark, you lose.

i like the link you provided though for the pittsburgh tribune.....

URL=http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_90823.html

Val McClatchey heard the 757 roar over Indian Lake, three miles east of where it would crash. She had been watching the "Today" show, with footage from New York, and now the Pentagon.

She looked out the window, above the red barns. She caught a glimpse of it, like light off a watch face. Then nothing, and then a boom that nearly knocked her off the couch.


"I thought it was an accident," McClatchey says, a Time and a Newsweek and a Reader's Digest in the binder on the coffee table, the pages with her photo marked with Post-Its. "I thought it was a small plane. I figured they were just trying to get out of the air."

thanks for posting links to validate my claims mark.

and proving yet again you are a waste of my time.

[hack89]

52. Do you think my name is Mark? You confuse me. nt

[planeman]

84. No you are not on mark Roberts level

[defendandprotect]

116. The info from people there immediately was "nothing there" --

and they've said that quite adamantly -- and believably!

[Ghost in the Machine]

137. No recognizable human remains were found until late on the 12th

Human remains recovered in Somerset
By Robin Acton and Richard Gazarik
TRIBUNE-REVIEW
Thursday, September 13, 2001

Evidence collection teams late Wednesday recovered the first recognizable human remains from the crash of United Airlines Flight 93 in Somerset County.

High-ranking law enforcement officials confirmed that an arm and other body parts from victims have been found by investigators who are combing an abandoned strip mine in Stonycreek Township near Lambertsville.

Meanwhile, investigators also are combing a second crime scene in nearby Indian Lake, where residents reported hearing the doomed jetliner flying over at a low altitude before "falling apart on their homes."

"People were calling in and reporting pieces of plane falling," a state trooper said.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_47536.html

[LARED]

4. Obviously it is time to remind folks of this axiom

No planes; no brains.

[planeman]

5. or should that be a plane = no evidence of the plane

[LARED]

12. Are you saying there was no evidence of a plane?

Seriously? If yes, you have my sympathy and prayers for a speedy recovery.

[planeman]

15. I am saying there is inadequate eveidence for a plane of that size

and an impact of that magnitude.If that is too hard for you to understand MrLARED then that is your problem.

[William Seger]

29. No, what you're saying is

... that all the evidence that proves you wrong must be fake.

[planeman]

49. The (ahem-lack of) evidence actually proves i am right.

Even the chronology of the shanksville attack relies on the emotions of the onlooker.
I.e if on 911 there had only been a plane crashing in shanksville(no WTC or pentagon attack)
then everyone would have had an extremly hard time in believing a plane had crashed there.

It is only because people associate the other 2 attacks(WTC + pentagon) with what happened in shanksville that allows them subconsciously accept that a plane crashed there because of what they had already seen on tv by that point in the morning(WTC attack).

the fact is that crater is pathetic given that a plane is supposed to have crashed in there at 600mph.

[LARED]

107. If you don't mind me asking, how do you know this? nt

[planeman]

123. Because they would have shown it ala pan am 103 or TW 800

instead the crashes of fl 77 and fl93 have been subconsciously manifested through the media via the endless repetition from multiple angles of fl175 hitting the wtc.

very clever piece of pyschological manipulation.

[defendandprotect]

117. "If the gloves don't fit, you must acquit" --- OJ didn't do it?

[seemslikeadream]

33. Thanks Domenick

Welcome to the dungeon :hi:

[Domenick]

36. thank you!!!

its way nicer than some of the other places i've been like that jref sewer that banned me because mark roberts and cronies cant duhbunk me!!!


:)

[Bolo Boffin]

38. What was your name at JREF?

I don't remember a domenick.

[Domenick]

39. awww bolo i feel so humbled....

you dont know who domenick is talking shanksville at jref.....

ask one of your friends they'll tell you. i wasnt allowed to register with my real name unless i gave them my birth certificate, social security number, and bank account along with the rights of my first born so i used something a little different......

[Bolo Boffin]

40. Your description of the JREF registration process is factually inaccurate.

As is, I'm quite sure, your account of how Mark Roberts ran from you. Be careful, Domenick -- Mark Roberts is a member here and falls under the protection that affords.

[Domenick]

44. mark challenged me to debate on hardfire and i accepted..

then mark and ron backed out of the deal.

ron issued me a second debate challenge that i accepted against the bbc but then he too backed out.

please provide links to the contrary if you believe they exist.

[Domenick]

46. and let me know when you wish to discuss the op

if you're not just buying time til mark shows up to make a fool out of himself.... ;-)

[SDuderstadt]

47. i'd love to hear what mark has to say about domenick's claim...

i also believe it's telling that domenick won't divulge the name he used @ jref. moreover, his description of the sign-up process there is a total fabrication.

[planeman]

58. Roberts is member of DU tell him to come over instead of hiding

on the jfuck forum.

[Ghost in the Machine]

75. What's *your* name at JREF? I don't see any SDuderstadt listed as a member

... you don't mind divulging *your* name there, do you?

[seemslikeadream]

89. being above board and all

:hi:

[seemslikeadream]

59. Does Mark post by the name Mark Roberts?

or something different, never heard of him

[Bolo Boffin]

66. I think that's right, yes.

Just because you've never heard of a DU poster doesn't mean that he isn't a member. He doesn't post here a lot, but he is a member.

[seemslikeadream]

81. I wasn't saying he is not a member, just never heard of him

[planeman]

61. then tell him to come over- i also tried to join- all i get back is:

is this message from those scared little jrefers

Dear planeman

*Automated response*

Unfortunately we couldn’t complete your registration for the JREF Forum.

We do not retain details of accounts that have not been approved however the most likely reason is that some required information wasn’t entered during the registration process (First name, Last name, Country and State if in the USA).

Please either try again to register or drop me an email and I will do my best to sort out any problems you may be experiencing.

**Note** my email address is [e-mail], if you reply to the email address this email was sent from ([e-mail]) it will cause a delay in our response to any query you may have,

Regards

Lisa Simpson
[e-mail]
JREF Forum Administrator

foor the record i gave them all my information- its just they are scared of being challenged.

[Bolo Boffin]

62. It figures that it's Lisa's fault. n/t

[planeman]

65. oh really mr boffin -they are pathetic. tell roberts to come over

instead of hiding in his cosy little corner where the sheep(you included ) can pur to his wishes all day long.

[Bolo Boffin]

67. No. I'm not your little messenger monkey.

Find Mark yourself.

[planeman]

70. well as i said i already ried to join and play on his field with his rules

and they were still too scared.
so seeing as he is a member here pass on the message.

[Bolo Boffin]

73. I missed the part where Western Union was tattooed to my forehead

Pass your own damn message on.

[planeman]

77. you are a jrefer-you waste time on Du making insubstantial contributions.

and you dont have the time to ask robert the gravy to come back on du and take part in a debate.

[Bolo Boffin]

83. I was a member of DU for three or four years before I'd ever heard of the JREF

and that's something I wouldn't expect a more recent member such as yourself to know. Neither am I surprised to see you spout off about something you know, with your commentary on 9/11 in evidence.

[planeman]

91. I am not so recent- i have been here since 2007

And i read the posts at jref-that is why i tried to join-but they are too scared.

[Bolo Boffin]

92. I've been here since 2002. n/t

[Make7]

115. You were here before 2007. ( n/t )

[planeman]

124. LOL! dude/dudess you need to get a life! LOL!

[Make7]

132. Your profile says you registered June 2006, 'planeman'. ( n/t )

[planeman]

133. i do not troll the forums on a regular basis like you mr7

[Make7]

135. My point was that it would've been easy for you to post accurate info. ( n/t )

[planeman]

82. no you are mark roberts little 911 messenger monkey

pathetic.

[seemslikeadream]

87. lol

:hi:

[jberryhill]

105. It was probably an IP address ban...

...'nuff said.

[seemslikeadream]

85. so when YOU say I don't remember him, do you mean he doesn't exist?

[seemslikeadream]

60. keep posting so I can send you a pm someday

:hi:

[Bolo Boffin]

64. where she can fill you in on all the fevered imaginations in her head

about people here without running the risk of having her posts deleted.

[planeman]

69. rather rich for someone who only posts on jref and du. where protection is afforded.

Az cat called me ignorant and egotistical on another thread yet his post has still not been deleted.

[Bolo Boffin]

74. I post in quite a few other places.

Please release your prejudices.

[planeman]

80. Ok i really dont care what or where you post.

but i do care that you have the ability to tell roberts to come down her and explain how he has twisted some rather crucial witness testimony.
As i said i tried to join the jfuck forum-twice.i will not be trying again.
so either roberts gets his lame ass back here to debate domonick or it is simple proof that he does not really have the stomach for a fight.

[Bolo Boffin]

86. I leave you to your bloodlust. n/t

[planeman]

93. 911 is not about you mr boffin - it involves the deaths of 3000 people

on the day aswell as countless innocent lives lost in afghanistan and Iraq so far.

and all for a little 20 foot cater caused by a plane crashing at an impossible 600mph.

[Bolo Boffin]

94. Once again, I leave you to your fanboy posturing on the graves of these people. n/t

[planeman]

127. excuse me - how dare you say that.-burnett spits oin the lifes of ordinary iraqis

Mrs. Burnett said, "Our troops are promoting a better quality of life for the people in Iraq. I commend them for that and I thank them for their service to America and the world."
http://www.crisispapers.org/guests/saavedra.htm

the woman is a couple cans short of a six pack mate.

[seemslikeadream]

78. different strokes for different folks

:hi:

[Bolo Boffin]

88. Any smear of me is a good enough smear for you, isn't it, SLAD?

Why not pile on?

[seemslikeadream]

90. what's god for the goose is god for the gander

yea I meant to say that :rofl:

[Ghost in the Machine]

95. *YOU* started the smear, dude...

Bolo Boffin (1000+ posts) Sun Apr-05-09 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #60
64. where she can fill you in on all the fevered imaginations in her head

about people here without running the risk of having her posts deleted.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=240179&mesg_id=240384

Get your little panties out of a wad and put your man pants on. Don't dish shit out if you can't take it back like a man.

[Twist_U_Up]

119. No smear is good enough for you ...

;-)

[seemslikeadream]

79. a fear you do not have to entertain

[Woody Box]

106. Cleveland Center confirms: UA93 southeast of Indian Lake

Thanks for your research and all the time and money you have invested, Domenick.

I can contribute a radio snippet between Cleveland Center and NEADS:

10:08:32 Cleveland Center: All I know is UAL93 has a confirmed bomb on board

10:09:01 NEADS: Was that confirmed by the pilot?

10:09:08 Cleveland Center: It was confirmed on the frequency

10:09:19 NEADS: Do you have his Mode 3 or last known mode 3?

10:09:39 Cleveland Center: His last Mode was 1527, and I have the latlongs...three niner five one north..zero seven eight four six west..can you scramble on it?

Source (scroll down to page 8)

39.51 North, 78.46 West - these are the last known position coordinates of UAL93 as observed by Cleveland Center.

This point is about ten miles southeast of Indian Lake.

It looks like Cleveland Center confirms Domenick's finds.

[Domenick]

111. thank you woody!!!

as you know i respect you and your research greatly!!!

this was a great find!!!

so this puts it over hyndman. how far is that from camp david?

[Woody Box]

120. yes, about 2 miles northwest of Hyndman, PA

but to Camp David there's still a long way, 70 miles or so...

These coordinates are confirmed by the log of AEA (the FAA's "Eastern Area Regional Center", supervising the North East including Pennsylvania)

1407 ZOB...UAL93 POSITION IS 16 SOUTH OF JST, 140 HEADING. WHEN IT LOST RADAR.
1408 ZOB...LAST KNOWN POSITION OF UAL93 IS 3951N-07846W

Source, scroll to p. 49

Translation:

10:07 Cleveland Center (ZOB): United 93 position is 16 miles south of Johnstown Airport (JST), southeastbound (140 heading) when it lost radar
10:08 Cleveland Center: last known position of United 93 is 39 degree 51' North, 78 degree 46' west.

[SDuderstadt]

113. I'd love to know how you determined that...

these coordinates are @ 10 miles SE of Shanksville, Woody.

[Woody Box]

121. Ok - I should have added

that these coordinates (latitude/longitude) are sexagesimal, not decimal.

So I should have written 39 degree 51' West, 78 degree 46' North instead of 39.51N,78.46W which could be understood as decimal coordinates.

[planeman]

125. I dont think you are slightly interested-just thought i would let people know that.

[SDuderstadt]

128. No one cares what you think, Planeman...

I don't care what a "no-planer" thinks about anything frankly.

[planeman]

134. lol mate- that is why you respond to my posts-because you do not care ;lol

[defendandprotect]

118. Thank you for your work and shedding light ....

where obviously many are working to keep us in the dark.

Again here, there is a "plane" but not flight #93 --

and as someone leaning to "no planes" -- I think this pretty much describes it!

Time will tell, but only because of research like yours!

[BeFree]

136. Nice work, Domenick

Thank you for trying to get to the bottom of this. The story you present here is quite compelling and stands well against the arguments in the OCT.

[Bolo Boffin]

138. Kick to get icee2's take on Val McClatchey. n/t

[travis80]

140. her photo looks fake. n/t

[Bolo Boffin]

142. Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man. n/t

[travis80]

143. hear that Canadian guy's call to that Shanksville resident who said it was fake?

quite the coincidence.

[travis80]

139. great researching Domenick! you've really blown the official story out of the water!

good job!

[Bolo Boffin]

141. Domenick was a disruptor who was banned. n/t

[Ghost in the Machine]

144. No, he wasn't a disruptor, he just got sucked into flamefests with people

who couldn't refute him. His research/work is solid.

How many witnesses have YOU personally interviewed?

[Bolo Boffin]

145. Not factually accurate there, Ghost. He disrupted... poorly. n/t

[Ghost in the Machine]

146. Well bolo, can you refute his work or not? n/t

[Bolo Boffin]

147. His work to prove that no plane crashed in Shanksville? Sure.

These people picked it all up - plane, passengers, everything.

[Ghost in the Machine]

148. Did he say there was "no" plane, or just that it wasn't Flight 93?

I'll have to read back through some of his posts again, but I was under the impression he was an "other planer"...


Peace,

Ghost

[Bolo Boffin]

149. "...always the last question people have when told a plane did not crash in the Shanksville field...

Direct quote from the OP.

[Ghost in the Machine]

173. ok...

Now, can you refute the eyewitness testimony? Can you refute/explain what plane Jim Stop saw fly over Indian Lake? Can you refute/explain what plane the residents of the Indian Lake community saw flying over their homes, dropping parts?

Have you interviewed any of the eyewitnesses and had them tell you anything different than the eyewitnesses that Domenick interviewed?

[Bolo Boffin]

174. So we are clear that 93 crashed at Shanksville? That's what all the evidence

I've linked to at wtc7lies.googlepages.com says.

ETA: For your edification:

http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010916otherjetnat5p5.asp

I got that from the wtc7lies site.

[Ghost in the Machine]

175. No.. I think *something* crashed in Shanksville..

Whether it was Flight 93 or not is up for debate still, as far as I am concerned.

Don't the inconsistencies rouse your curiosity? Like the first responders saying there were body parts everywhere, yet the newspapers reported that no identifiable remains were found until the next day? Like eyewitnesses seeing the plane over the lake, but the official flight path puts the plane never crossing over the lake or Indian Lake community?

[Bolo Boffin]

176. "eyewitnesses seeing the plane over the lake" - THE plane? Or A plane?

I've already posted a link to wtc7lies, and now also to the story about the Falcon 20 that was at the scene almost immediately.

ETA:

"The remains of a number of passengers had been found in all five sectors." –Somerset County Coroner Wallace Miller, quoted in Jere Longman's "Among the Heroes," p. 262.

Note, that doesn't only say they found remains from people in all five sectors. They found remains in all five sectors for some of the victims. In other words, five set of remains from five different sectors were IDed by DNA to one victim.

[Ghost in the Machine]

177. Jim Stop saw "the hijacked Boeing 757 fly over him"

"People were calling in and reporting pieces of plane falling," a state trooper said.

Jim Stop reported he had seen the hijacked Boeing 757 fly over him as he was fishing. He said he could see parts falling from the plane."

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_47536.html


Your edit doesn't address the issue of no recognizable remains being found until the 12th, which contradicts the first responders saying they saw body parts everywhere.

"Note, that doesn't only say they found remains from people in all five sectors. They found remains in all five sectors for some of the victims. In other words, five set of remains from five different sectors were IDed by DNA to one victim."

No, I think you read that wrong.. but that's just my opinion.. your mileage may vary...

[Bolo Boffin]

178. I see the problem now.

Full quote from your link:

Evidence collection teams late Wednesday recovered the first recognizable human remains from the crash of United Airlines Flight 93 in Somerset County.

High-ranking law enforcement officials confirmed that an arm and other body parts from victims have been found by investigators who are combing an abandoned strip mine in Stonycreek Township near Lambertsville.

Context - arm and other body parts - recognizable human remains.

In other words, everything else seen up to that point was not recognizable as human. It was flesh or bone so disfigured as to not be recognizable as human. But an arm? That's different.

There's no contradiction here except for people looking to twist words against words.

ETA: "over" doesn't necessarily mean "directly over."

[Ghost in the Machine]

179. Oh sweet irony!

"There's no contradiction here except for people looking to twist words against words.

ETA: "over" doesn't necessarily mean "directly over." "

:rofl: Are you trying to twist "over him" to mean what you *want* it to mean?

Jim Stop says it "flew over HIM", not 'over the other end of the lake' or 'flew over right over that way' or 'over there' ....

[Bolo Boffin]

180. It is you twisting Stop's words against the words of everyone else there, Ghost.

Everyone who says Flight 93 crashed right there, you are using Jim Stop's words in a way to contradict them all.

That's twisting words against words. That's exactly what I was talking about.

You're doing it. And on this subject, it is most foul.

ETA: Actually, you don't even have Stop's exact words. You have a report of his account, but not a direct quote. You have no idea where Stop actually was on the map. Go back and look at your own link, Ghost.

[Ghost in the Machine]

181. No, Jim Stop's words speak for themselves...

"Jim Stop saw the hijacked Boeing 757 fly over him"

How did the plane fly over him while he was fishing if the (official) flight path never took the plane over the lake??

Save your scolding admonishments for someone else and stick to the subject, which is Jim Stop seeing the plane fly over him, okay? What's foul is the way you try to twist things to fit your worldview and the story put out by your Big Daddy Government. The fact that you try to invoke shame by bringing up dead passengers simply shows that you don't have anything intelligent to add to the conversation, but you want to say something anyways...

Deal with Jim Stop seeing the plane fly over him. Deal with the residents of Indian Lake who reported the plane flying low over their homes, with pieces of it falling off. How do you reconcile that?

[Bolo Boffin]

182. You don't have Jim Stop's words. You have an account of what he said.

Do you honestly not understand that?

You also have NO IDEA ON EARTH where Jim Stop actually was. Is it possible he was not on Indian Creek Lake at all?

Before you start telling me to save the scolding admonishments, you need to lay off them your own damn self. ETA: Of course, you'd never reply to me ever again, because that is your sole reason for ever speaking to me - to scold and admonish me. It's your only MO. What is it that we call someone who induldges in the exact same behavior he openly criticizes in others? Meh, it's probably against the rules to say.

[Ghost in the Machine]

183. By that logic, you don't have Barbara Olsen's words, just an account of what she said..

What about Todd Beamer? Jeremy Glick? Are there actual recordings of their phone calls.. or is all we have is accounts of what they said?

"You also have NO IDEA ON EARTH where Jim Stop actually was. Is it possible he was not on Indian Creek Lake at all?"

I would say there is a 100% chance that Jim Stop wasn't on "Indian Creek Lake", seeing as there is no such lake by that name around there. Do you think maybe he was fishing out in one of the fields?

Once again, drop the "poor little persecuted bolo" act and stick to the subject. What Boeing 757 did Jim Stop see fly over him while he was fishing?

[Bolo Boffin]

184. We're talking Flight 93 here. Pay attention.

So you haven't his actual words, but you're holding me to them.

You have no idea where he actually was. Do you think Indian Lake was the only body of water in the area? How do you know he was there?

The one that Jim Stop saw overhead (and a plane diving at the ground from two miles up is described as "over" or "overhead" by plenty of people on the ground) was the one that crashed at Shanksville.

Which, by the evidence on the ground, was Flight 93. Which completely disproves the OP, your ostensible reason for this discussion being the defense of.

[Ghost in the Machine]

186. No, we moved on to eyewitness accounts. Please try to follow along and keep up

"So you haven't his actual words, but you're holding me to them."

Yes, his actual words were that the plane flew over him

"You have no idea where he actually was. Do you think Indian Lake was the only body of water in the area? How do you know he was there?"

You have no idea where he was either, do you? I'll have to take his word that he was there. I forgot, however, that YOU think you know more than anyone, even eyewitnesses who were there. Do you think he was fishing in the small retention pond? Fishing in one of the fields?

"The one that Jim Stop saw overhead (and a plane diving at the ground from two miles up is described as "over" or "overhead" by plenty of people on the ground) was the one that crashed at Shanksville."

Please provide proof of your assertions

"Which, by the evidence on the ground, was Flight 93. Which completely disproves the OP, your ostensible reason for this discussion being the defense of."

Does it hurt when you twist yourself up into a pretzel like that?

[Bolo Boffin]

188. You do not have his words. Please stop distracting this discussion.

"Yes, his actual words were that the plane flew over him"'

Provide the quote, the actual quote - you know, with quotation marks indicating that his actual words are being used. Until you do, you do not have his actual words.

"You have no idea where he was either, do you? I'll have to take his word that he was there. I forgot, however, that YOU think you know more than anyone, even eyewitnesses who were there. Do you think he was fishing in the small retention pond? Fishing in one of the fields?"

I know exactly where he was. You do not. No, he was not "fishing in one of the fields." There was a small retention pond. There are also many different places where he could have been fishing in the area. Do you know where he was? No, you do not. Get off your ass and find out. The information is out there.

As soon as you find out exactly where he was, I'm pretty sure you will have found the source of my information. And THAT is how I know the plane Jim Stop saw is the one that crashed at Shanksville, because Jim Stop is described as hearing the explosion and seeing the smoke AFTER he saw the plane "overhead."

So I will be withholding my link since it's up to you to find the link to support your assertion of where he is. Get busy.

There's no pretzeling over here. If you want to contribute to a discussion of the facts, get busy and support your assertions. If you want to scold and admonish me, continue along the same line you've been pursuing thus far.

[Ghost in the Machine]

190. I know exactly where Jim Stop was fishing, too....

The fact that you claim to know, yet ask "how do you know he was there" just shows the level of your intellectual dishonesty. No more, no less.

As for your little demands of "get busy" or "get off your ass and find out"... I find you laughable. You more and more like a cartoon character with every post. Kinda reminds me of Sponge Bob...

Is that all you have? Cartoon-like quips?

[Bolo Boffin]

191. Prove it. Produce the link. Or STFU. n/t

[Ghost in the Machine]

192. Bwaaahahahaha! More Sponge Bob quips!

I love sponge bob!

We can go back and forth like this all day. YOU made the assertion that you knew exactly where he was.. YOU prove it...

He was fishing at Indian Lake Marina

You made the claim... put up or retract. Now would be a good time...

[Bolo Boffin]

193. Sorry, you've got a lot more assertions to prove before I start. n/t

[Ghost in the Machine]

194. Just admit that you have nothing and move along.. the Sponge Bob act only goes so far, ya know.. n/t

[Bolo Boffin]

195. It would be factually inaccurate for me to say that. n/t

[Name removed]

196. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bolo Boffin]

197. Convergence of evidence, Ghost. Look it up sometime.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/american/skeptic-magazine/skeptic-8.html

[Ghost in the Machine]

198. Convergence of Evidence would disprove the Official Story....

Since you have several eye witnesses and ear witnesses who put the plane coming over Indian Lake, while the official flight path puts it at least 3 miles west of the lake, never crossing over it. In other words, you have your government telling you one thing, and several witnesses telling you another. Funny how you choose to believe the *one* witness, who just so happens to confirm your worldview, and discount the *several* witnesses who contradict that one source.





How do you reconcile the eyewitness accounts of the plane coming over the lake itself, and the Indian Lake Community, with the official flight path?

[Bolo Boffin]

199. Convergence of evidence created the "official story."

Flight 93 crashed at Shanksville. That's what the convergence of evidence clearly shows.

http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/flight93page1
http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/flight93page2
http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/flight93page3

It is you twisting a few accounts into something you think contradicts all of this other evidence. People see a plane in the sky and it's "over" them. It's "overhead", especially when you look up and see the bottom of the plane.

But that plane was upside down, flying into the ground.

Produce any quote you dare that specifically says the plane flew over Indian Lake. No one ever said that at all. You are factually inaccurate. You fly in the face of all evidence.

And the truth is, you don't even believe this nonsense one second. You're just doing this to antagonize me.

[Ghost in the Machine]

200. The only thing antagonizing you is your lack of critical thinking skills coupled with

the cognitive dissonance in your brain. You run from facts that defy your Big Daddy Government's Official Story when those facts are right up in your face. The only thing you're interested in is your Big Daddy Government rocking you to sleep at night and telling you everything is going to be alright.

Here's a real simple exercise for you:

Look at the Official Flight Path again:




Now look at a map of the area:



Notice where the community of Indian Lake is? Notice where tha marina is?

Now, try to reconcile the reports from residents of the Indian Lake Community who said the plane was flying over their homes, dropping parts on their homes and in their yards as it flew. Try to reconcile the reports from the marina owner, and marina employees, who said the plane flew over so low that it shook the building, causing the lights to flicker.

Even if I were to say that yes, flight 93 went down in Shanksville, the Official Story and Official Flight Path *still* contradicts eyewitness accounts. Until those conflicts are cleared up, there are too many unanswered questions. As long as those questions go unanswered, there will be more questions.

You are free to believe whatever you want, without question... just don't get upset when people point and laugh at you and some of the silliness that you spout on about.

[Bolo Boffin]

201. Then you do not understand convergence of evidence.t

If you say that Flight 93 crashed in Shanksville, game over. You have denied the very objective of Domenick's OP.

So continue to make disparaging remarks about me even while you agree with the statement I'm defending, the truth. Why you feel the need to mock me and get in my face when you agree with what I say is a mystery, but it sounds like trolling to me.

[chandler2]

202. I didn't realize you're a truther. Then I read this.

"So continue to make disparaging remarks about me even while you agree with the statement I'm defending, the truth."

[Bolo Boffin]

203. :eyes: n/t

[Ghost in the Machine]

204. You don't understand facts and evidence, apparently...

Eyewitness accounts contradict the Official Story. You can't reconcile the contradiction without pretzel logic and/or blind faith in you government.

"If you say that Flight 93 crashed in Shanksville, game over. You have denied the very objective of Domenick's OP."

Thanks for showcasing your lack of reading comprehension that goes with the lack of critical thinking skills. Go read my words again. Read for comprehension this time. Even if I agreed that 93 crashed there, the eyewitness accounts conflict with the official story. The official story is a LIE. Period.

"So continue to make disparaging remarks about me even while you agree with the statement I'm defending, the truth. Why you feel the need to mock me and get in my face when you agree with what I say is a mystery, but it sounds like trolling to me."

OCTer Logic: I can't refute what you say, so you must be trolling...

Intellectual incuriosity must be a bitch, huh?


There there... everything will be alright. Sleep tight, sweet prince, Big Daddy is watching over you and won't let anything happen to you.

[Bolo Boffin]

205. Goodbye, Ghost. n/t

[Ghost in the Machine]

206. Run away with your tail tucked again, bolo

You should take your act on the road...

[Bolo Boffin]

185. And since you brought up Barbara Olson...

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=5152778#post5152778

More evidence she made the calls that she did.

[Ghost in the Machine]

187. Meh...

All you have is someone elses account, again...

Why is that someone elses account is good enough for you when it backs up your beliefs, but not worth a shit when it flies in the face of your worldview?

You don't have to answer, I already know why....

[Bolo Boffin]

189. You mischaracterize me. Whatever gets your rocks off. n/t

[catnhatnh]

150. Jesus Christ Bolo...

After insisting every poster provide sworn testimony you publish a photo of a hundred people in SOME field doing SOMETHING as "conclusive proof" that a passenger jet crashed and human remains were found AND that the plane was a specified flight at a specified location??? Wanta see an actual photo of Santa? That's what I love about a certain group here-when I make ANY argument they will accuse me of deliberate falsehood or "fallacy" IN LATIN and then post a pile of goobers in a field and say in negates 50 other posts...

[Bolo Boffin]

151. Oh, you need more?

http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/flight93page1

Start there.

Evidence Summary: 10 Points

1) The four hijackers purchased tickets under their own names and boarded the plane. One was randomly selected for and passed additional security screening. Ziad Jarrah was a licensed pilot and had recent training on professional large jet flight simulators. United flight 93 was scheduled to depart at 8:00 am, but left 42 minutes late due to airport traffic. Aboard were 33 passengers, 7 crew members, and 4 hijackers.

2) Several passengers and crew called from the plane, spoke with loved ones, described the hijackers' attack, and related their plan to try to retake the plane so that it would not be used as a suicide weapon against a populated area. All but two of these calls were made using the plane's seatback Airfones.

3) The cockpit voice recorder recorded the hijackers' attack and apparent murder of the pilots and a flight attendant. Air traffic controllers heard a radio transmission by a man with an Arabic accent, warning of a bomb on board. Passengers reported that one of the hijackers had what appeared to be a bomb strapped to him.

4) After learning about the other attacks, passengers and cabin crew attempted to retake the cockpit but were apparently unable to gain entry. The sound of their attempts was recorded on the CVR. The CVR also recorded the hijackers' decision to end the flight, followed by repeated shouts of "Allahu Akbar!" ("God is greatest.") until the plane crashed. Families of victims heard the CVR recording.

5) Flight 93 was tracked by radar until it went down.

6) Many people in Pennsylvania saw the Boeing 757, traveling at low altitude and high speed, roll to the right and plummet upside-down, nose first, towards the ground. Many people witnessed the subsequent enormous explosion and fireball. Val McClatchey photographed the mushroom cloud.

7) Hundreds of first responders (mostly volunteer firefighters) and crime scene investigators were quickly on the scene. They saw human remains, aircraft wreckage, personal effects, jet fuel, etc.
The cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder were recovered and had usable data, all of which is consistent with the other evidence.

8) The remains of every victim was positively identified. Somerset County Coroner Wallace Miller personally collected many remains and made 12 identifications through fingerprints and dental records. Personal effects of most passengers and crew were recovered and returned to their families.

9) Hijacker identification documents and personal effects were recovered, along with the remains of four people identified as the hijackers through the process of elimination.

10) Nearly all of the aircraft was recovered by professional investigators and by civilians. The debris was returned to United Airlines after being examined for evidence of explosives use.

That list needs updating. After recent material was released by the government, we found out that Ziad Jarrah's remains from the site were also identified through DNA samples recovered from his girlfriend's apartment.

Let me know when you have questions that aren't answered there.

[catnhatnh]

152. Okay

1.After the fact this was stated.

2.Maybe, but I've seen several disputes here regarding the possibility of in-flight phone calls on this forum.

3.When? Cockpit voice recorder? ATC tapes, where and when? And airphone info when?

4.Till I here the voice recorder it is hearsay.

5.But I have seen that disputed.

6.Subsequent only means "sometime after". This is your post hoc ergo promter hoc.

7.Nonsense. There is no such thing as "hundreds of first responders". As a refutation which is simple but germane to your post how did "first responders identify the "Jet Fuel" they saw?

8.From what I read he found parts of one body personally. The DNA was all supplied from outside. Without corroboration I would ask you to provide proof of "personal effects".

9.Just once I'd like a photo of "personal effect" from the site. But "process of elimination" assumes that what we don't know proves something alledged...

10.So you say-prove it-show me a single photo with serial number proof.then show me the personal effects you say identified all 33 passengers, four crew and four hijackers.

You claim many things-now prove them.

[Bolo Boffin]

153. All of that is at the link I provided.

Get busy refuting those pages.

ETA: By the way, this:

1.After the fact this was stated.

...is not a refutation. This is a complete abdication of refutation. What the fuck does it even mean, and how do you imagine it negates the first item from Roberts' pages?

[catnhatnh]

155. Now kill the other nine N/T

[Bolo Boffin]

156. Is that an admission of not having refuted the first? n/t

[catnhatnh]

159. You've gotta be kidding...

You guys insist on chapter and verse-now produce and by that I mean ALL ten points please since you like to fire up large discussions and introduced each of them. And since your so knowledgeable please refute each.

[Bolo Boffin]

160. Well, let me refute your "refutation" with your own tactics.

1. Nuh-uh.
2. Nuh-uh.
3. Nuh-uh.
4. Nuh-uh.
5. Nuh-uh.
6. Nuh-uh.
7. Nuh-uh.
8. Nuh-uh.
9. Nuh-uh.
10. Nuh-uh.

There. Your move.

[catnhatnh]

162. Well then, my move will be to ignore you ...

As I normally do. If you found nothing even possibly cogent in my post and nothing worthy of your time to reply to you are in fact what I thought. I am done with you. You might have convinced me but you couldn't bother. Nor will I reply to you again. Though I may ridicule you to others.

[Bolo Boffin]

164. You posted nothing worth responding to, and that was all you got back from me.

Off with you now. Back into your hidey hole, safe from all the evidence, where you can mock the family members of 9/11 victims all you want.

[Name removed]

167. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SDuderstadt]

163. Damn you, Bolo...

could you include some sort of disclaimer when you post like this, so I won't try to read it while I am trying to drink something? You owe me a new laptop.

[SDuderstadt]

154. "Till I here the voice recorder it is hearsay"

That's total bullshit. You need to look up the defintion of hearsay, dude. Hearsay means the witness has no direct knowledge of what the subject said. In this case it's documented by the recording...that ain't "hearsay".

For the record, no one fucking cares whether you're convinced or not, dude.

[catnhatnh]

157. And I care "Fucking" as little as you...

I have equal standing on the board as you. You claim a recorder so produce it. Otherwise, until produced-yes-it is unsupported bullshit.

[Bolo Boffin]

158. The family members listened to the recording, catnhatnh.

rollingrock produced the link to the story. So it's following your know-nothing stance or believe them. I'm going with them.

No offense.

[catnhatnh]

161. So after your appeal to logic...

My best course is to believe a small group whom may have been externally controlled and eschew your normal stance of sworn testimony? Just this time or whenever it shuts down discussion? You pick a group most likely to be prejudiced and claim they are the best arbiters of info from government sources???

[SDuderstadt]

166. WTF?

Could you please explain how the family members could have "been externally controlled"? How, specifically, are the family members "prejudiced"? Could you manage to be any more insulting to the real victims of 9/11 in your quest to show your ignorance?

To quote, Joseph Welch: "Have you no decency, sir, at long last? Have you no decency?". It's know-nothings like you who keep the "9/11 truth movement" mired in disrespect from honest folks, dude.

[SDuderstadt]

165. This is even dumber....

how in the fuck am I supposed to "produce" the CVR, dude? Are you honestly claiming that the family members who listened to it are lying? If you have evidence that there is no CVR recording then, by all means, please notify the U.S. Attorney and have him charge the relevant people with perjury, dude. No one cares about your personal incredulity. If it's so important to you, go look this stuff up. We're not responsible for your ignorance in this matter. Evidence introduced at trial is not "unsupported bullshit", except to know-nothings like you. If you dispute the evidence, take it up with the trial judge. I'm certain he'll take your call.

[catnhatnh]

168. How are you supposed to produce the CVR?

Well actually all I want is the data from it. You of course are aware there have been multiple crashes involving hundreds of victims before have been publicly released, right? And just for fun, at just what "trial" that we magically can't see transcripts from was this produced??? you guys play logic games in Latin naming my arguments as "below" you. C'mon Dude-where can I "look up" the trial transcripts and find out what was on the CVR??? I mean- failing that this post is bullshit, right?

[SDuderstadt]

169. Dude...

someone already posted a link from the transcript of the CVR....duh.

[catnhatnh]

170. No...

In fact they posted a purported transcript of the CVR. Again what trial?

[SDuderstadt]

171. I'm done with your bullshit, dude....

go find it on your own.

[chaddyt]

172. Typical...

Truther: There's no evidence of a plane at Shanksville!!!

Sane Person: ::: link to numerous photos from the scene showing wreckage :::

Truther: Faked/Planted/No serial numbers!!! Where's the CVR transcript!?!?!

Sane Person: ::: link to CVR transcript :::

Truther: Faked/Planted/No serial numbers!!! Where's the DNA evidence of the remains!?!!?

Sane Person: ::: link to stories on recovery/DNA testing :::

Truther: Faked/Planted/The media's in on it!!!



... and on and on they go.

[upstandingcitizens]

207. WOW

I'm going to tip-toe on out of this forum and not return.
Y'all have a good life. :yoiks:

[chandler2]

208. Excellent example of thorough research. May I ask a question?

First, just so it's clear - I'm convinced that no plane crashed at or near Shanksville.

My question is this: in your research, did you learn how it came to be that the first responders went to the site
of the alleged crash? Did someone call 9/11? If so, what did they say they were calling about and did they give an
accurate description of the location of the alleged crash?

It's very odd how people reported the power going off at crucial times on 9/11 in PA, NYC, and near the Pentagon.
Curiously, telephone service in Dallas was interrupted at Dealey Plaza during the assassination of JFK and I've also
read that the power went off for a brief period, too.

You deserve a lot of credit for the find work you did. Those of us interested in learning the truth about 9/11 owe
you a great big word of thanks. Here's mine: THANKS.

[Bolo Boffin]

209. You won't get an answer from Domenick.

He's long been banned as a disruptor.

Information about Flight 93 crashing at Shanksville and the emergency response can be found here.

http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/flight93page1

At Shanksville, which was by far the smallest of the three 9/11 crash scenes, over 1,100 people from 74 agencies and organizations worked at the scene. Including civilian volunteers, many of whom joined an organized effort to collect aircraft parts, the number of crash scene workers reaches well over 1,500.

On 9/11 alone, these included: • 8 Police Departments • 7 EMS Services • 8 Fire Departments • 10 Emergency Management Agencies • NTSB • ATF • FBI • CISM • Red Cross • United Airlines Source: PowerPoint presentation by Rick Lohr, Director of the Somerset County Emergency Management Agency...

Volunteer first responders on 9/11 included:

Shanksville Volunteer Fire Company, Stoystown Volunteer Fire Company, Central City Fire Department, Berlin Fire Department, Friedens Volunteer Fire Department, Listie Volunteer Fire Company, Somerset Volunteer Fire Department, Somerset Ambulance Association, Hooversville Volunteer Fire Department, and the Hooversville Rescue Squad.

"Shanksville Volunteer Fire Company Assistant Fire Chief Rick King and three firefighters were the first responders on the scene with an engine and a tanker. Shanksville Fire Chief Terry Shaffer also responded from 10 minutes away.

"While enroute to the scene, there was a concern for the potential of large numbers of casualties. Chief Shaffer requested additional ambulances and EMS units dispatched to the scene. Two ambulances from outside the county were also alerted but were placed in service while responding. Upon arrival, firefighters found small pieces of the plane, spot fires, and a large quantity of fuel scattered across a wide debris field. A quick survey of the scene found no survivors. Additional resources were requested from County Control, which included additional suppression companies and the Somerset Fire Company’s hazardous materials team. Federal authorities, including the FBI and NTSB, arrived relatively quickly to secure the site and begin the evidence collection and body recovery process."

I don't see anything about a 911 call. Very possibly none was necessary.

[chandler2]

210. Thanks. I appreciate your response.

I'm sorry the gentleman is no longer with us, but it's none of my business why he is expired.

As you probably realized, the reason why I asked the question is that since there's so little credible evidence of a plane crash there I think that knowing about some of the 911 calls might be very revealing. The gov't would be better off claiming that tons
of people called 911 and reported a large commercial airliner crashed nearby. Actually, I'm sure that's what the gov't WOULD say.
By gov't, I mean U.S., PA, and locals.

[Bolo Boffin]

213. There are three long pages of collected links to evidence about Flight 93

at the link I've provided. Your statement that "there's so little credible evidence of a plane crash there" is rather stunning in the face of all that evidence. If you weren't there, why don't you want to listen to the people who were?

[Ghost in the Machine]

214. "If you weren't there, why don't you want to listen to the people who were?"

:rofl: More unintentional irony from bolo boffin! This, coming from a guy who says eye/earwitnesses were mistaken and didn't see/hear what they think they saw/heard.. or that Norm Mineta was mistaken about what time he was where he says he was, instead preferring to believe Dick Cheney...

The spongebob of the duhbunkers strikes again!

[Name removed]

211. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[chandler2]

212. Thanks, seatnineb. nt

[Ardent15]

215. One word....

Bullshit.

[f11killerbeing]

216. Fail

The revolt made it crash in Pensylvannia

[Name removed]

217. Deleted message

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