More Suspicious Deaths?

[clear eye]

The coincidence of Bob Novack & Ted Kennedy's brain cancers got me thinking. So I started wondering about Sens. Joe Biden & Tim Johnson, and how being one Senator short of a majority has to rankle someone like Cheney, and that set me Googling. Seems I was massively naive about how easy it is to kill without detection with just a little know-how and no conscience.

While we've been focusing on obvious foul play, some much more subtle evil might well have escaped us. Most of us know that a couple of years ago Thom Hartmann pointed out the connection between the U.S. military-sourced anthrax letters to Sens. Daschle and Leahy, and the Senators' desire to slow the adoption of the Patriot Act for further consideration of parts of it. The timing of the mysterious deaths of the dozens of microbiologists worldwide who could testify in a court of law as to where that strain originated has also been remarked upon. That incident may have been intentionally clumsy in order to "spook the herd" in Congress from investigating 911 or considering impeachment no matter how necessary. You know, like enforcers for loan sharks.

Re: Biden and Johnson--I was originally thinking of something like 1 disguised capsule of warfarin planted in their bottles of blood pressure meds or whatever. But I found the following chilling discussion <http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=8833> which allegedly quotes a CIA agent talking about a rapidly degrading drug that if ingested gradually--say in a favorite bottle of Scotch--degrades arteries and causes death by aneurysm. Apparently the symptoms and autopsy appear absolutely natural. The cabal might have gotten lucky with Johnson's AVM or it may have already been been in his medical files as a secret, and that led them to select him. Miraculously, prompt, quality medical care saved both men.

In that same thread, a toxicologist, Peter Lempkin, calls putting a strong knock-out agent dissolved in DMSO on the steering wheel of a car or plane an "old trick", and postulates it being used to kill Karen Silkwood. DMSO is famous for causing the accidental discovery of the psychoactive nature of LSD by causing the LSD to pass through the skin of a scientist who then became dramatically aware of the properties of both chemicals. Wellstone, anyone?

Some members and former members of the Bush administration have become understandably nervous about the possibility of being prosecuted at the end of Bush's term for their actions in the Plame case, falsified pre-war intelligence, and the railroading of Don Siegelman. Novack is a liability. (The DMSO technique may have caused his recent car accident.) Who knows what evidence Kennedy has his hands on, and used in the past to keep his independence by countering threats they may have leveled at him? QUESTION: Did Kennedy and Novack use D.C. doctors for injections of testosterone or Vit. B12 or Botox or anything else rich aging men use? On second thought, an intimidated or bamboozled doctor could just give any seemingly routine injection supplied by an administration agent.

Disclaimer: I have no hard evidence, secret or otherwise of any crime. It's simply that with the history of the anthrax, two aneurysms and two cases of incurable brain cancer in people inconvenient or dangerous to the administration smell fishy to me.

[SDuderstadt]

1. "Suspicious deaths" is a common CT with not much to back it up...

Anyone can look at a sample of the populace and infer something "suspicious" about some of them dying within a given period. However, there's usually nothing at all to it and is an example of what is called "found significance". It has to do with how one views the data and draws conclusions about it. The same "thinking" was used to construct the "Clinton Body Count" list, wich has been thoroughly debunked. The reality is that all you have to do is exclude any examples that contradict the "conspiracy theory" and you can make it appear as if there is something to it, when there really isn't. I'm not sure what anyone finds all that suspicious about 2 nearly 80 year-old men contracting brain cancer.

The "suspicious deaths of mocrobiologists" is anothet perfect example of this kind of fallacious reasoning and is debunked below. When you have actual proof of your conjecture, I'm all ears.


http://www.911myths.com/html/microbiologists.html

[clear eye]

3. What I found significant

enough to write a post on was that there appear to be well-known covert methods to cause these specific occurrences. I am also considering the context. As well as the anthrax event, just before the Republican lawyer Dana Jill Simpson testified to Congress about the involvement of Karl Rove and his long-time colleague Bill Canaris in the persecution of Don Siegelman, her house was burned down and her car run off the road. <http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Diaz_placeholder_0408.html> I'll leave out Margie Schoedinger because it is plausible that she was deluded and did indeed commit suicide. The Clintons didn't have that kind of physical trail to make murder credible. Nor did they talk about needing to go to "the dark side", as a member of this administration has.

You do realize that if my speculation (and I've acknowledged that my post is speculation) is, in fact, reality, anyone who posted proof would be killed as well.

[SDuderstadt]

4. My problem is "speculation"....

fuels some of the more suggestible members here who, not only embrace it themselves, but go on to spread it as "fact" to other equally gullible people. Did you bother to fact check what "Raw Story" had to say or did you just accept it as fact? I have no problem with speculation as long as it is properly labeled as such, however, I think there is far too much speculation here masquerading as "fact" to a number of people poorly equipped to process it properly. I believe conjecture, however seemingly well-grounded, doesn't serve a particularly good purpose. I'd prefer we leave this kind of thing to the RW, as they are far better at it (given the lack of a factual basis for many, or even most, of there claims/beliefs.

[clear eye]

6. Checking "Raw Story"

as you suggested, I was surprised to find that iterations of this story all over the Internet all seem to source that same site. On the other hand it does not seem to be debunked anywhere as would be expected if it were fictitious. Raw Story also ran a more detailed piece involving those incidents, another fire and a handful of odd break-ins of offices and homes of targets of politically motivated prosecutions in which they cited police reports and quoted Simpson directly. <http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Breakins_plague_Justice_Department_whistleblowers_0430.html>

[Diane_nyc]

12. I don't think it would be healthy for progressives to have a total taboo ....

... on voicing suspicions about possible government wrongdoing.

Government accountability is important. And it's kind of hard to call for government accountability if you're not allowed to worry about possible government wrongdoing.

I do think it's important to distinguish clearly between speculation and fact, and to ask others to make that distinction too.

[global1]

20. What About The D.C. Madam?....

and didn't I just read about a General in Alaska that had something to do with the Nukes that were moved? And other airmen associated with that as well. And didn't they just find an aide to Sen. Webb suicided?

I'm sorry - too many coincidences here.

[SDuderstadt]

22. First of all....

with the exception of the DC madam (as there is no question involved), you don't provide any proof of these occurrences whatsoever. You just assert them as fact, claiming "didn't I just read...?" about them. As far as Deborah Palfrey is concerned, do you really find anything at all suspicious about her suicide? Are you claiming that suicide is not a relatively common cause of death (I am, by no means, claiming it is a leadimg or even routine cause of death, although it listed as the 11th most frequent cause of death by http://www.mentalhealthamerica.net/go/state-ranking)? Why do you find the suicide of a mid-fifties woman facing an extended federal prison term as remotely suspicious? Have you even researched the facts surrounding her suicide, for example, her disclosure prior to her suicide that she could not face the prison sentence?

Any CT can make a death appear to be suspicious. That is no less the case here.

[truedelphi]

7. The OP is talking about suspicions - not proof.

If you read the OP you realize that there is no proof mentioned for the types of deaths that are being discussed. The most any sane person can have are suspicions, and as you say, something like brain cancer is less suspicious when you take a person's age into account. Once you around the age of eighty, brain cancer becomes a more common phenomenon.

Unless, like, Cheney goes on TV tonight and tells all.

[SDuderstadt]

8. Which is why I referred to it as....

speculation. All I said was too many people here take speculation to be fact. I stand by what I said.

[clear eye]

9. I wasn't offended

In fact, I'll probably be less likely to post my concerns in the future, since, as you've pointed out, they could easily be miscontrued and misused. The juxtiposition of the info from the thread I cited with my own uneasiness seemed significant at the time. Especially Dave Russo's description of the aneurysm-causing drug. But, as there's no way of knowing, there may have been no point in posting.

I stand by the info from "Raw Story", though. The Velvet Revolution respects them, and the second article cited chapter and verse and would have had to have been a pretty elaborate hoax if not true. Seems Rove is putting the good ole boys in Alabama up to some heavy mischief.

[frog92969]

13. Your suspicions are well within the realm of possibility

This is a discussion board not an encyclopedia, by all means post away.

[Diane_nyc]

14. No need to avoid posting your concerns. I would just suggest adding more disclaimers next time.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=217728&mesg_id=217749">clear eye wrote:

9. I wasn't offended

In fact, I'll probably be less likely to post my concerns in the future, since, as you've pointed out, they could easily be miscontrued and misused.

I don't think that's a reason do avoid posting your concerns. I do think that's a good reason to sprinkle in a bunch of disclaimers and ask readers not to jump to panicked conclusions.

The juxtiposition of the info from the thread I cited with my own uneasiness seemed significant at the time. Especially Dave Russo's description of the aneurysm-causing drug. But, as there's no way of knowing, there may have been no point in posting.

I wouldn't say that there's no point in posting such concerns. I think it's worth discussing such questions as (1) just how likely are possibilities such as the ones you've raised and (2) is there any reasonable way that our government can be restructured to make such possibilities less likely without infringing on people's constitutional rights?

Another vital relevant issue is the following dilemma: Any nation-state in today's world needs intelligence agencies. However, the necessary secrecy of intelligence agencies means that all manner of abuses can be hidden behind the veil of said secrecy. What can be done to ensure greater accountability on the part of intelligence agencies, without compromising their needed functions?

Hypothetical discussion about the kinds of things that the intelligence agencies could conceivably be getting away with, and how likely those possibilities are, is far from irrelevant to the above vitally important issue. Of course, we do need to distinguish carefully between possibilities and proven actualities and avoid jumping to panicked conclusions.

[Diane_nyc]

11. Here in New York City, cops will sometimes investigate possible murders ...

... in cases where there were even fewer grounds for suspicion than in the cases that were speculated about here.

For an example from my own experience, a long time ago a friend of mine committed suicide. I was not aware of any good reason to doubt that her death was a suicide. In fact, I and all her other friends knew her death was a suicide, for reasons having to do with illness, because she told us in advance. (Though very sad to hear her announcement, I didn't try to stop her, because I trusted her judgment.) Furthermore, as far as I was aware, she didn't have any enemies who could conceivably have wanted to kill her. Nor did she have a huge amount of money, such that her husband or some other family member might benefit significantly by killing her.

Nevertheless, for the next few months, her husband was locked out of their apartment until the cops finally determined that there was indeed no foul play.

[truedelphi]

15. Too bad those types of devoted law enforcement types were not involved in

Investigating Wellstone's plane crash.

Even though there were announcements some two weeks before the crash that terrorists wanted to take down US Senators, the fire of the crash had not yet burned out before it was announced that this plane crash was not at all involved with terrorism.

And the fact that such a plane burned for over six hours wa suspicious in itself. At least two expert pilots I have talked to pointed that out to me - something I had no way of noticing as I know very little about aircraft.

[SDuderstadt]

16. Paul Wellstone was a hero of mine

I was crushed when he, his wife and his daughter were killed in that plane crash. Having said that, I don't think there was anything al that suspicious about the crash, especially given the fact that the pilot considered canceling the flight because of weather conditions. That is, of course, unless you believe the NTSB was "in on it".


http://edition.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/11/18/wellstone.crash/index.html

[truedelphi]

17. the head of the NTSB at that point in time was former CIA

So if it was planned and carried out by the agency, there wouldn't have been much resistance from the NTSB.

[SDuderstadt]

18. Do you have ANY proof of your claim whatsoever?

Somehow, I doubt it.

[truedelphi]

19. Carol carmody's resume was on the web in a few places back at the time.

And her past CIA involvement was mentioned in several different "legitimate" news sources.

Due top the fat that the Nine Eleven events had everyone feeling we needed to be a hands-on, secure nation with lookouts everywhere, this wasn't even suspect behavior. Why not have CIA as heading NTSB??

[SDuderstadt]

21. So, we're supposed to take your word for it?

I don't think so. In fact, here's what flightsafety.org has to say about her:

Carol J. Carmody


Carol J. Carmody completed her five year term at the National Transportation Safety Board and retired from federal service in March, 2005. During her tenure she was appointed Vice-Chairman by President Clinton, and served twice as Acting Chairman. She was Chairman on September 11 and was responsible for committing NTSB resources to assist the FBI and other agencies in recovery and identification of aircraft parts and victims at all the terrorist sites. Ms. Carmody led the effort in a number of accident investigations including the aircraft accidents that killed Minnesota Senator Paul Wellstone and Missouri Governor Mel Carnahan, the Aspen Colorado air crash which killed 18 people; and the Kensington train derailment. She chaired public hearings on the American Airlines 587 accident, a derailment and spill in Minot North Dakota, and the use of cockpit video recorders.

Ms. Carmody has 30 years experience in the aviation community. Before joining the NTSB, she worked as an independent aviation consultant focusing on international and environmental issues. She was appointed by President Clinton in 1994 and served five years in Montreal as the U. S. Representative to the Council of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO). She was instrumental in persuading ICAO to establish a safety oversight program to assess compliance of countries with ICAO standards. This was a first at ICAO and the results have improved safety for the traveling public around the world.

Ms. Carmody spent six years as a professional aviation staff member of the Senate Commerce Committee and worked on legislation to mandate inspections for aging aircraft, to improve pilot training, to phase out Stage 2 aircraft and to reform the FAA — particularly in areas of finance and procurement. She worked for 11 years at the FAA, starting in the budget office and leading up to her appointment as Deputy Director of Congressional Services for FAA Administrator Don Engen.

Currently Mrs. Carmody serves as Director of Transportation Initiatives at the National Academy of Public Administration, a Congressionally chartered non-profit organization devoted to issues of governance. Ms. Carmody has a Masters in Public Administration from American University in Washington, and a Bachelor of Arts from the University of Oklahoma

http://www.flightsafety.org/resumes/CCarmody.html

Funny. Absolutely no mention of any CIA service at all. Even more interesting is that she was apparently appointed by President Clinton, so that blows your claim that her appointment was, in any way, connected with 9/11 all to hell.

I'll be blunt. At best, your fact-checking skills suck. At worst, I think you made this shit up. Your credibility is zero.

[truedelphi]

23. Look, the source for her CIA involvement was the NTSB's own web site

The day of her being hired for that interim position.

So don't be upset with me - call out the web site manager for NTSB! Tell that person they got their facts wrong!!

[SDuderstadt]

24. I call bullshit....

can you produce this proof or not? Taking your word for it is not an option.

Below is the NTSB's bio for Carol Carmody. As you can see, not a single word about any connection to the CIA. You're making this shit up...as usual.


http://www.ntsb.gov/abt_ntsb/bios/former/carmody.htm

[truedelphi]

26. This url should have given the citing I mentioned

But it is no longer available.

http://www.ntsb.gov/Abt_NTSB/bios/carmody.htm

Not too long ago, it did mention Ms Carmody's ffiliation with the CIA.

However, if you go to this url:
http://tinyurl.com/6jhvrm

You will get an indy media account from Quebec - and they also noted the same url with the CIA section of her bio mentioned.(See references - footnotes at bottom of article

The article happens to be in French, with the key paragraphs being:
Cependant, Carmody, celle-là même qui est en charge des relations publiques du NTSB dans cette enquête, traîne un passé qui comporte une lourde tache: elle a déjà travaillée pour la CIA (Central Intelligence Agency), ce qui n’est pas de nature à rassurer quiconque est le moindrement familier avec la sinistre réputation de cette redoutable agence d’espionnage en matière de coups fourrés et d’assassinats politiques à l’extérieur des États-Unis. Le passage de Carmody à la CIA est une information publique puisqu’il est mentionné sur le site internet officiel du NTSB. Coïncidence ou pas, les observateurs avisés en matière de services secrets n’ignorent pas qu’une fois qu’on a déjà appartenu à la CIA, on lui appartient souvent à vie.(20)

La présence de boites noires—qui enregistrent les données du vol et les communications orales des pilotes dans le cockpit—auraient été susceptibles d’élucider certains aspects mystérieux du crash du 25 oct. Initialement, le porte-parole de la FAA (Federal Aviation Administration) avait déclaré qu’il était requis que l’avion soit équipé de boites noires. Une dépêche de l’Associated Press mentionne que Carmody a déclaré que la première priorité des 16 enquêteurs du NTSB envoyé sur le site du crash était de retrouver l’enregistrement des voix des pilotes. Or, Carmody s’est contredite ensuite en déclarant que la présence de boites noires était optionnelle et a niée que l’avion de Wellstone en était équipé!)(21)

The section in bold above: elle a desja travaillee pour la CIA trranslates into She has already worked for the CIA.

Neither Quebec indy media nor I should be blamed for the fact that the NTSB is now leaving out the CIA section of her bio.

Gee wonder why they would omit that info- maybe they are tired of the disgust many Democrats feel that Carmody worked for both "investigations" of recent Dem plane crashes - one being Mel Carnahan and the other the Wellstone murders, er plane crashes.

[SDuderstadt]

27. This just gets funnier by the moment....

Did you notice the name of the "author" for your purported proof of the claim? His name is "ronny". Not some reporter or known authority whom we can fact-check or vet. Some anonymous internet poster named "ronny". As I said before, your fact-checking skills suck.

I'm still calling bullshit. You keep providing the same unconvincing bullshit, excepot this time it's in French. Color me unimpressed. Carol Carmody never worked for or at the CIA. Why can't you just admit that rather than continue this charade?

[loslobo]

25. Anybody read Mike Ruppert's "Crossing the Rubicon"?

I don't have a copy so this is from memory........
The jist I got was that the relay from the ground that tells
the plane altitude in relationship to it, was tampered with.
Somehow it made the plane seem 1,000 feet higher than it
actually was. This doesn't make sense to me, cuz isn't the
plane's altimeter independent of any ground device???
Unless it was only equipped with a radar altimeter??
Any thoughts gang?

[petgoat]

28. If you think Wellstone's death wasn't suspicious, you haven't looked into it.

Mike Ruppert said that a number of people on Capitol Hill believe Wellstone
was murdered. According to the publisher of the book American Assasination,
at the time of Wellstone's death, 69% of Minnesotans attributed it to a
GOP plot.

http://www.amazon.com/American-Assassination-Strange-Senator-Wellstone/dp/0975276301

Dr. Griffin digests the book so thoroughly in his review, I've never bothered to
read the book:


The evidence includes several facts suggesting that the NTSB (National Transportation Safety Board) colluded with the FBI in a cover-up:
1. FBI agents from Minneapolis arrived at the crash site within 2 hours after the crash, even though the trip from Minnesota to Duluth to the crash site would have taken at least 3 hours--so they must have departed before the plane crashed.
2. When asked for the times at which private flights had arrived in Duluth that morning, the FAA said the records had been destroyed.
3. Considerable disinformation about weather conditions was quickly given to the press.
4. Although regulations called for the investigation to be carried out by the NTSB, not the FBI (because the crash site was not designated a crime scene), the FBI agents were there for 8 hours before the NTSB team arrived.
5. The FBI, even though there illegally, prevented the local "first responders" from taking photographs.
6. Although it was the NTSB's responsibility to determine the cause of the crash and although the FBI's prior presence was illegal, the NTSB leader publicly accepted the FBI's declaration, made before the NTSB's investigation, that there was no evidence of terrorism.
7. When the NTSB team finally carried out its own investigation, it was unable to find either the cockpit recorder, which it assumed the plane had had, or the black box.
8. The NTSB held no public hearings, claiming that it was not a sufficiently "high-profile" case.
9. The NTSB's final report concealed the fact of the FBI's participation.
10. The NTSB investigation was headed by Acting Director Carol Carmody, a Bush appointee who had earlier ruled that there was no foul play in the small airplane crash in 2000 that took the life of Governor Mel Carnahan of Missouri, the Democratic candidate for the Senate who was killed 3 weeks before his expected victory (over John Ashcroft).

The evidence also includes some facts strongly suggesting the falsity of the NTSB's official conclusion, which was that the plane crashed because the pilot failed to maintain proper speed, causing the plane to stall.
1. The plane would have stalled only if it slowed to below 70 knots, yet it was equipped with a device that emitted a loud warning at 85 knots.
2. The plane was being flown by two experienced and fully certified pilots, a fact--obfuscated in the NTSB report-that makes this kind of pilot error very unlikely.
3. The NTSB's theory fails to explain why, about two minutes before the crash, all communication was abruptly terminated and the plane began going off course.

The evidence also includes facts suggesting that the plane was instead brought down by an EMP (electromagnetic pulse) weapon:
1. The plane's fuselage burned, although it was separated from the wings, which contained the fuel.
2. The plane's electrical system, which would be affected by an EMP, was in the fuselage, and the fire from the fuselage gave off blue smoke, which is indicative of an electrical fire.
3. An EMP could explain why the plane simultaneously went off course and lost its radio about two minutes before the crash.
4. At the same time, cell phones and garage doors in the area behaved in a way consistent with the occurrence of an EMP.
5. An NTSB spokesman professed ignorance about the existence of EMP weapons that could have brought down the plane, although the existence of such weapons had been known for several years.

An important part of the authors' case is the fact that the Bush administration would have had several motives:
1. Wellstone's defeat would return control of the Senate to the Republicans.
2. Wellstone's death 10 days before the election meant that $700,000 in the Republican campaign chest could be transferred, the very next day, to the (successful) effort to defeat Max Cleland in the Senate race in Georgia.
3. Wellstone was the biggest obstacle in the Senate to several Republican policies, such as those involving Iraq, Colombia, the SEC, tax cuts, and Homeland Security, and he was the strongest voice in Congress calling for a full investigation into 9/11.
4. Two days before his death, Wellstone reported that Cheney had told him: "If you vote against the war in Iraq, the Bush administration will do whatever is necessary to get you."
5. Wellstone had developed a 7-point lead in the polls over Norm Coleman, the Bush administration's hand-picked candidate.

http://www.amazon.com/American-Assassination-Strange-Senator-Wellstone/dp/0975276301

[SDuderstadt]

29. Again I ask...

is there any conspiracy theory so goofy even YOU won't embrace it?

Think this through for just a moment. Do you see the flaw in the theory? Are you seriously suggesting the outcome of all the other Senate races was pre-determined so the GOP only had to have one Democratic Senator murdered to regain control? Wouldn't it be a lot easier to rig elections? Do you ever engage your brain when pondering the conspiracy theory of the month?

[petgoat]

30. Fetzer's theories about the motivations of the perps are the least important issue.

Facts suggest that the NTSB (National Transportation Safety Board) colluded with the FBI in a cover-up,
the NTSB's official conclusion (the plane crashed because the pilot failed to maintain proper speed) was
false, that the plane was instead brought down by an EMP (electromagnetic pulse) weapon.

Instead of dealing with the facts, you pretend to poke holes in the alleged motivation. Who cares
about Fetzer's theories? He left intimidation off the list. How many posts have you seen at DU
complaining about the mysterious gutlessness of Congress?

You OCT defenders are fond of the argument that "Well, if I wanted to accomplish X,Y,Z I would do
it this way. The hypothetical conspirators didn't do it my way, therefore there was no conspiracy
and therefore we needn't bother with the suspicious facts."

Don't forget, these conspirators are lunatics.

[SDuderstadt]

31. Do you have any proof of your claims?

Do you? Do you think offering a book by someone who espouses conspiracy theories as bizarre as yours somehow constitutes proof? Have you even read the NTSB report on the Wellstone crash? So you even know the circumstances surrounding the crash? My problem with you is you seem to sign on to any conspiracy theory, no matter how far-fetched or implausible. EMP weapon, indeed.

[petgoat]

32. You use the same fallacious logic here that you use re: 9/11

You take issue with the theory, and ignore the facts.

[SDuderstadt]

33. I am asking you if have any proof of these "facts"....

Did you bother to fact-check your "source" or did you just merely buy into it? Just because something appears in print hardly means it's true. Again, do you have any independent corroboration of the claims or not?

[petgoat]

34. I haven't even read the book. And I'm not going to.

You're the one who very confidently expressed the opinion that there was
nothing all that suspicious about the crash.

Well, my initial impression, based on Dr. Griffin's list, is that it appears
that there's a whole lot that seems suspicious about the crash.

You want to infer that I jump on every conspiracy bandwagon that comes along.
Hell no! I just want to be clear on what I know and what I don't.

You want to pretend to a lot of knowledge you don't have.

[SDuderstadt]

35. This is unintended irony, right?

You haven't even read the book, just Griffin's review of it. How do you know that Griffin or Ruppert are telling you the truth? Hint: you don't, so where you get the notion that you possess any "facts" about the situation is, frankly, laughable.

Again, I ask. Have you even read the NTSB report on the crash? Doesn't the search for the truth entail reading both sides? Are you disputing the fact that the pilot initially was going to scrub the flight because of bad weather? Does it surprise you that changing his mind cost the plane's occupants their lives? You don't have any factual information as to the cause of the crash at all, just what Griffin (a dubious character in his own right) has to say about what Ruppert (an even more dubious character - have you ever read his bio?) has to say. Yet you come in here and start spouting off like you know something factual. Have you ever heard of Occam's Razor? For the record, I am not ruling out foul play at all, however, there does not appear to be any credible evidence of such so I accept the NTSB report provisionally, until better evidence is presented (of which you have exactly none).

This is why your reputation here is a joke.

[petgoat]

36. I wasn't spouting off about anything factual-- you were.

Dr. Griffin's digest of the book gives me reason to consider the crash suspicious.
That's all I'm going to give to it.

The claim that the FBI investigators left Minneapolis before the plane even crashed
seems suspicious on its face.

I have heard of Occam's razor, a principle quite useful in scientific theorizing that
is often misapplied by sophists and pseudo-sophists to the realm of human affairs.

[SDuderstadt]

37. Petgoat....it's real simple...

do you have ANY proof at all or just the claims of Griffin/Ruppert? For example, do you have any proof at all that the FBI investigators left Minneapolis "before" the plane even crashed or are you just taking Griffin/Ruppert's word for it? Did you bother to fact-check any of this at all?

Beyond everything else, it's really stupid to claim Occam's Razor has no relevance in the "realm of human affairs". William of Ockham was a logician. Duh. Either you have proof of your goofy claim or you don't. Which is it?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

[wildbilln864]

2. thanks and ...

welcome to the DU dungeon. :hi:

[Mist]

5. Thanks for the post. Some of these ideas had occurred to me also. I think

Senators Kennedy and Biden are old enough in the political world to protect themselves, and, IRRC, Kennedy gets most of his serious treatment in Boston. Hard to say with Novak--he's been of benefit to the --selected--administration, so maybe his accident was real. Then again, who knows?

[Diane_nyc]

10. self-delete - wrong place