Pearl Harbor: Mother of 9/11? Just as FDR knew, so did bushco.

[Abe Linkman]

Pearl Harbor, like 9/11, didn't catch ANYONE in the U.S. Gov't by surprise...who was in a position to know what was coming. Here's a short article that explains the long covered-up truth about 12/7/41 --
a "Day of Deceit".


http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/WOO203A.html

[HawkerHurricane]

1. Oh, God, not again.

What were the first words out of FDR's mouth when told about the Pearl Harbor attack?

"What? You mean Subic or Clarke, don't you?"

Both are in the Phillipines.

A Japanese attack was expected, hence the 'War Warning' message. A attack without a declaration of war was expected. But NOT a attack on Pearl Harbor.

[number6]

2. disagree, but interesting

FDR knew...not enough proof for me

Bush knew ...fun but, Bush is too dim to know anything.

911 allowed to happen, definitely a possibility, CIA ISI
complicity also possible ...

[Senior citizen]

3. A dude on a bicycle (or a dude on dialysis) at fault.

When I was a kid in school our history teacher had us write a paper on Pearl Harbor. He wanted us to put the blame on a dude on a bicycle who was supposedly late carrying a message. I couldn't do it. I wasn't there. I didn't know all the facts. I wrote up as much as I could of what I knew to be facts, explained that because a lot of people died, we needed to treat the entire incident with respect, and I did not place the blame on the dude with the bicycle. Naturally enough, I got an F. Many years later I started to learn about the scapegoats and I still believe that Pearl Harbor was not the fault of the dude on the bicycle.

I just wonder if many years from now some poor kid in a history class will be asked to write a paper on 9/11, and will get an F for refusing to put the blame on some dude on dialysis.

History repeats; history classes repeat lies.

On edit: I just finished reading, "The New Pearl Harbor" about 10 minutes ago. Am I the last person here to read it? The suspicion that the last plane could have been shot down because the passengers were about to take it over and could have landed it safely, thus leaving "terrorists" alive to be questioned, was news to me. I also didn't know the details on the probability of explosives being used in New York, and the absurdity of the story that the Pentagon crash site had fire hot enough to melt steel, but that left human flesh intact enough to be identified. Whew! I did get a laugh out of the theory that if incompetence was to blame, it would have been punished rather than rewarded. And here all these years I'd thought rewarding incompetence was just standard government operating procedure.

:silly:

[Abe Linkman]

5. And LHOswald was in two buildings & on the grassy knoll at the same time!

Makes you wonder about people who act as though conspiracies rarely occur (if ever). Makes me wonder if they are intentionally ignorant ("comfortably numb"), or simply naive and gullible. The latter must be composed mainly of those folks who see the U.S. Gov't as parental figures...whose word is to be automatically accepted, and questions of them are just going to be answered with: "because I said so."

[LARED]

4. Abe, do you buy into this stuff?

The Centre's objective is to unveil the workings of the New World Order.

War and globalization go hand in hand, leading, in the post Cold War era, to the destruction of countries and the impoverishment of hundreds of millions of people. In turn, this global economic system is marked by an unprecedented concentration of private wealth. The institutions of war, police repression and economic management interface with one another. NATO is not only in liaison with the Pentagon and the CIA, it also has contacts with the IMF and the World Bank. In turn, the Washington based international financial bureaucracy, responsible for imposing deadly "economic medicine" on developing countries has close ties to the Wall Street financial establishment.

The powers behind this system are those of the global banks and financial institutions, the military-industrial complex, the oil and energy giants, the biotech conglomerates and the powerful media and communications giants, which fabricate the news and overtly distorts the course of world events. In turn, the police apparatus represses, in the name of "Western democracy", all forms of dissent and critique of the dominant neoliberal ideology.

This "false consciousness" which pervades our societies, prevents critical debate and masks the truth. Ultimately, this false consciousness precludes a collective understanding of the workings of a World economic and political system, which destroys people's lives. The only promise of global capitalism is a World of landless farmers, shuttered factories, jobless workers and gutted social programs with "bitter economic medicine" under the WTO and the IMF constituting the only prescription.

The New World Order is based on the "false consensus" of Washington and Wall Street, which ordains the "free market system" as the only possible choice on the fated road to a "global prosperity". The CRG purports to reveal the truth and disarm the falsehoods conveyed by the controlled corporate media.

Just wondering.

[Lithos]

6. Total BS

While was with Japan was highly expected, no one knew the exact time or place it was going to happen. Even the vaunted Purple messages which gave an insight into Japanese diplomatic planning still lacked detail - and what detail there was occured just prior to the attack and included only vague information such as instructions to destroy the code books at the consulate and one of two Purple machines.

The Japanese Naval code which would have contained the necessary operational information was NOT broken at this time; it was a laborious process to gleen any information from their messages. The last time priot to WWII the US had read a Japanese Naval message on the same day was 1939, from 1939 up through the Pearl Harbor attack US intelligence was months and in some cases years back in decoding and translating messages. To add to this woe, the Japanese navy had instituted a new code (AN-1) on Dec. 4th which was NOT broken by the US until months after Pearl Harbor.

It was the partial breakage of this code which allowed the US to pre-empt the Japanese invasion of Midway and gave the opportunity to destroy the core of the Japanese carrier force.

Also, most Orange planning (US military planning against Japan) involved most conflict happening in the Central Pacific and in the Philippines.

However, unlike Bush, FDR HAD escalated the war footing using the available estimates. MacArthur had already started mobilizing the Philippine Army and preparing for an invasion prior to Dec. 7th. The installation of Marines on Wake and Midway Islands just prior to the war were also part of the preparations.

[Abe Linkman]

7. Who said anyone knew the EXACT time or place it was going to happen?

I'm not aware of that claim.

[Lithos]

8. The article implies that FDR allowed Pearl to Happen

in a LIHOP or even an MIHOP type of event.

Sorry, but in the case of FDR, what did happen was a surprise. There was no warning that Pearl Harbor was to be the target. The scant intelligence indications and planning had indicated any assault would be directed towards the Philippines. Yet, despite this, FDR did put out a War Footing message.

L-

[Abe Linkman]

9. We disagree, but I'm not going any further with this one.

I wouldn't have even gone this far, if I had realized who you are. So, in the interest of not wanting to raise the ire of someone who has the authority to delete and ban, I surrender. YOU WIN! I agree with YOU.

[Bolo Boffin]

10. Lithos isn't right because he's the moderator, Abe.

Lithos is right because a rational examination of all relevant facts supports the conclusion that FDR didn't know about the Pearl Harbor attack, nor did he willfully allow it to happen.

[LARED]

11. How disappointing.

For all your bluster, I thought you at least actually believed the stuff you post.

If I was a Mod what you said would be quite insulting.

[Lithos]

12. LOL

US Naval History of the Pacific from about 1890 to 1945 is one of my specialties that I have studied off and on for over 20 years, so I am very opinionated about it.

However, seriously, you can debate me - anyone can debate a mod. As for involving my moderator hat, the only way this happens is when someone demonstrably violates a rule. Trust me, I would have to defend any decision with Skinner who is the final authority. "Because he pissed me off" is not a valid answer.

[Abe Linkman]

13. Thanks, but no thanks.

I didn't realize the rules allowed a moderator to post in the same forums they moderate.

As I said, YOU WIN. ( and you always will, with me. )

[Lithos]

15. Sorry to hear that

While I may be a mod, we are certainly not celibate when it comes to posting. We just have to be very upstanding citizens and help set the example.

[Abe Linkman]

14. Would you actually even consider saying that?

"Because he pissed me off"

[Lithos]

16. No, I wouldn't

It was an example. The point is that not liking someone is not an excuse to ban them or arbitrarily delete their posts. Skinner has built checks and balances into the system which help mitigate this from happening, but in the end I, or any other mod, would still have to be able to look Skinner in the eye (metaphorically) and justify our actions especially if they were unilateral in action or appearance.

I can personally guarantee you from experience that Skinner bends over backwards when it comes to being fair and he wants a system that promotes this.

L-

[Abe Linkman]

17. It would be doubly disappointing to think someone might act that way...

but I wouldn't expect them to acknowledge that's why they took the action they did. I'd also hope that not liking someone's IDEAS wouldn't be a valid reason, either. What would concern me is someone not liking an idea, then deciding they don't like the person who posted that idea (because they don't like the person's idea), then using their authority
becuase of it, but denying that their dislike of the person is the reason why they took the action they did. Hard to prove that, which is why I'm glad to know the system has checks and balances. HOWEVER -- I'm not interested in testing the system. YOU will always win, if I see your name in time!

[MercutioATC]

18. Gee...somebody gimme a mod hat!

Had I known it was THAT easy....

[DulceDecorum]

19. Gawd No

Lithos you stay right where you are.

[MercutioATC]

22. Don't worry. I was passed over twice last year.

Skinner is obviously a wise man.

[DulceDecorum]

20. and now, back to FDR.....

http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j052501.html

What led you to write a book about Pearl Harbor?
Stinnett: Well, I was in the navy in World War II. I was on an aircraft carrier. With George Bush, believe it or not.
http://www.independent.org/tii/news/020311Cirignano.html

* Though a major exposer of the Pearl Harbor conspiracy, Robert Stinnett is sympathetic regarding FDR’s motives. He writes in his book: "As a veteran of the Pacific War, I felt a sense of outrage as I uncovered secrets that had been hidden from Americans for more than fifty years. But I understood the agonizing dilemma faced by President Roosevelt. He was forced to find circuitous means to persuade an isolationist America to join in a fight for freedom." In our view, a government that is allowed to operate in such fashion is a government that has embarked on a dangerous, slippery slope toward dictatorship. Nonetheless, Stinnett’s position on FDR’s motives makes his exposé of FDR’s actions all the more compelling.
http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/2001/06-04-2001/vo17no12_facts.htm

Next,
other FDR scandals.

[LARED]

21. That slippery slope must be real small and not real slippery

In our view, a government that is allowed to operate in such fashion is a government that has embarked on a dangerous, slippery slope toward dictatorship.

Seeing as the Pacific war was over 50 years ago, the dictatorship thing has be real slow in forming.

BTW, do you know you are referencing a rag closely associated with the John Birch Society.

[Abe Linkman]

23. DD: Thanks. None of our Emperors seem to have any clothes.

MIHOP has been around in one form or another, for a very long time.
I think an argument can be made that the MIHOP line between PH & 9/11
is a very thin one.

[PerpetualYnquisitive]

24. FDR not only knew, he approved it.

Cover notes from "Day of Deceit"

Pearl Harbor was not an accident, a mere failure of American intelligence, or a brilliant Japanese military coup. It was the result of a carefully orchestrated design, initiated at the highest levels of our government. According to a key memorandum, eight steps were taken to make sure we would enter the war by this means. Pearl Harbor was the only way, leading officials felt, to galvanize the reluctant American public into action.

This great question of Pearl Harbor--what did we know and when did we know it?--has been argued for years. At first, a panel created by FDR concluded that we had no advance warning and should blame only the local commanders for lack of preparedness. More recently, historians such as John Toland and Edward Beach have concluded that some intelligence was intercepted. Finally, just months ago, the Senate voted to exonerate Hawaii commanders Admiral Kimmel and Lieutenant General Short, after the Pentagon officially declared that blame should be "broadly shared." But no investigator has ever been able to prove that foreknowledge of the attack existed at the highest levels.

Until now. After decades of Freedom of Information Act requests, Robert B. Stinnett has gathered the long-hidden evidence that shatters every shibboleth of Pearl Harbor. It shows that not only was the attack expected, it was deliberately provoked through an eight-step program devised by the Navy. Whereas previous investigators have claimed that our government did not crack Japan's military codes before December 7, 1941, Stinnett offers cable after cable of decryptions. He proves that a Japanese spy on the island transmitted information--including a map of bombing targets--beginning on August 21, and that government intelligence knew all about it. He reveals that Admiral Kimmel was prevented from conducting a routine training exercise at the eleventh hour that would have uncovered the location of the oncoming Japanese fleet. And contrary to previous claims, he shows that the Japanese fleet did not maintain radio silence as it approached Hawaii. Its many coded cables were intercepted and decoded by American cryptographers in Stations on Hawaii and in Seattle.

The evidence is overwhelming. At the highest levels---on FDR's desk--America had ample warning of the pending attack. At those same levels, it was understood that the isolationist American public would not support a declaration of war unless we were attacked first. The result was a plan to anger Japan, to keep the loyal officers responsible for Pearl Harbor in the dark, and thus to drag America into the greatest war of her existence.

Source: http://www.pearlharbor41.com/notes.htm

Lieutenant Commander Arthur McCollum of the Office of Naval Intelligence wrote a very incriminating memo in which he states "If by these means Japan could be led to commit an overt act of war, so much the better".

Memo here: http://www.rationalrevolution.net/mccollum.htm

[MrSandman]

26. If he approved...

Why were the capital ships of the time sacrificed?

The same effect (US into WW2) could have been achieved with loss of only a Division of the BBs. Or even a CV...US strategists consudered them "scouts" for the real fleet.

[PerpetualYnquisitive]

27. You mean the "Modern Fleet' that was sunk?

Like these:

USS Arizona, a 31,400 ton Pennsylvania class battleship built at the New York Navy Yard, Brooklyn, New York, was commissioned in October 1916

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-usn/usnsh-a/bb39.htm

or

Utah (Battleship No. 31) was laid down on 9 March 1909 at Camden, N.J., by the New York Shipbuilding Co.; launched on 23 December 1909; sponsored by Miss Mary Alice Spry, daughter of Governor William Spry of Utah; and commissioned at the Philadelphia Navy Yard on 31 August 1911, Capt. William S. Benson in command.

http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/ships/battleships/utah/bb31-utah.html

or

USS Oklahoma, a 27,500-ton Nevada class battleship, was built at Camden, New Jersey. She was commissioned in May 1916 and generally operated in the Atlantic over the next five years

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-usn/usnsh-o/bb37.htm


Technology that was decades old at the time and of little significance.

Do you think America would be in danger if some of the hardware assets it used during Grenada were no longer at its disposal?

[MrSandman]

28. Like the California class BB's...

That were repaired and served throughout the war.

Utah was not commisioned as a BB on 12/7/41. It was a support ship...AG...so, yeah, if there was complicity, sacrificing only those ships would be sufficient. Unless FDR had to personally insure Yamamoto that the entire fleet was in harbor. In which case, why was the tird wave not launched?

[HawkerHurricane]

29. Of 17 BB's on active duty...

15 were built before 1920. Only 2 were built after that, USS Washington and USS North Carolina. Both were assigned to the Atlantic Fleet, where they were still doing work ups. There was a big moratorium on building battleships, with the Washington Naval Treaty of 1922 and the London Naval Treaty of 1930(?). Worldwide, there were only a handful of new battleships.
So, what's your point? The battleline was the core of the fleet. No one realized that they were obsolescent. IF FDR wanted to lose as little as possible, the fleet would have been at see except for a sacraficial lamb or two (USS Pensylvania was in drydock... USS Enterprise missed the attack by hours.)

In WW2, most of the naval actions were surface actions. And in a surface action, the Dreadnaught Battleship was king. 9 times during the war the BB's slugged it out, compared to only 5 carrier actions... and this discounts all the times that BB's fought cruisers (or smaller) or the small boys fought each other.

Carrier Battles: All U.S. vs. Japan
1. Coral Sea
2. Midway
3. Eastern Solomons
4. Santa Cruz
5. Phillipine Sea (The Great Marianas Turkey Shoot)

Battleship Battles
1. Norway U.K. vs Germany
2. Oran U.K. vs Vichy
3. Calabria U.K. vs Italy
4. Denmark Strait U.K. vs Germany
5. Sinking of the Bismark
6. Casablanca U.S. vs Vichy
7. 2nd Guadalcanal U.S. vs Japan
8. North Cape U.K. vs Germany
9. Surigao Strait U.S. vs Japan

So, decades old hardware is useless? Better tell the USN, we still fly 1970 era F-14's off 1960 era aircraft carriers... and the US Army still uses 1980 era M-1 Abrams as thier main battle tanks... and the Air Force sill calls the 1970's F-15 thier main fighter plane, and use it to escort the 1950's B-52.

Technology advances. But obsolete is not useless. And the battleline was not believed to be obsolete.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[vincent_vega_lives]

30. RE: Hawker and Lithos

Its nice to see historians on the site that can debunk this revisionist crap.

[HawkerHurricane]

31. Welcome.

Call it a pet peeve. The FDR conspiracy bugs me, since the private papers indicate that FDR wanted Japan to keep quiet and provoke a war with Germany.