9/11 fantasists pose a mortal danger to popular oppositional campaigns

[muriel_volestrangler]

These conspiracy idiots are a boon for Bush and Blair as they destroy the movements some of us have spent years building

George Monbiot
Tuesday February 20, 2007
The Guardian

'You did this hit piece because your corporate masters instructed you to. You are a controlled asset of the new world order ... bought and paid for." "Everyone has some skeleton in the cupboard. How else would MI5 and special branch recruit agents?" "Shill, traitor, sleeper", "leftwing gatekeeper", "accessory after the fact", "political whore of the biggest conspiracy of them all".

These are a few of the measured responses to my article, a fortnight ago, about the film Loose Change, which maintains that the United States government destroyed the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon. Having spent years building up my leftwing credibility on behalf of my paymasters in MI5, I've blown it. I overplayed my hand, and have been exposed, like Bush and Cheney, by a bunch of kids with laptops. My handlers are furious.
...
In other words, you must believe that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and their pals are all-knowing, all-seeing and all-powerful, despite the fact that they were incapable of faking either weapons of mass destruction or any evidence at Ground Zero that Saddam Hussein was responsible. You must believe that the impression of cackhandedness and incompetence they have managed to project since taking office is a front. Otherwise you are a traitor and a spy.

Why do I bother with these morons? Because they are destroying the movements some of us have spent a long time trying to build. Those of us who believe that the crucial global issues - climate change, the Iraq war, nuclear proliferation, inequality - are insufficiently debated in parliament or congress, that corporate power stands too heavily on democracy, that war criminals, cheats and liars are not being held to account, have invested our efforts in movements outside the mainstream political process. These, we are now discovering, are peculiarly susceptible to this epidemic of gibberish.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,2016815,00.html

[Bryan Sacks]

1. The problem is with the resistance movements, not wacky 9/11 theories n/t

[MervinFerd]

2. Amen. nt

[reprehensor]

3. My comment to Monbot. (sic)

(Posted at the Guardian this morning.)

"Because they are destroying the movements some of us have spent a long time trying to build."

And what, exactly, has your movement done Mr. Monbiot?

The last time I checked, globalization was proceeding just fine, while the the Left was busy sipping tea and munching crumpets at the Anarcho-Syndicalist Koffee Klatch.

You'd think that after a stream of decapitations of the Left in the U.S., starting with JFK, (ok, oligarchy-left), MLK, RFK, MalcolmX, the Black Panthers, that the oligarchy in the U.S. can and does whack people it doesn't like.

These events can, will, must be investigated by ordinary citizens who will not take the easy road of pooh-poohing these events as "conspiracy theories".

Here's what Chomsky once said about "conspiracy theories";

This is chronicled in the excellent book, "Towers of Deception" by Canadian Barrie Zwicker;

Zwicker present us with a question asked of Chomsky after a public meeting, “Would you consider your media analysis as a ‘conspiracy theory’ at all?”

Chomsky replied, “It’s precisely the opposite of conspiracy theory, actually … ‘conspiracy theory’ has become the intellectual equivalent of a four-letter word: it’s something people say when they don’t want you to think about what’s really going on.”

--------------------------

The fact of the matter is, deception by the government is commonplace, especially when it comes to covert operations.

The Bay of Pigs is a prime example;
http://tinyurl.com/2qdqen

Operation Northwoods (Kennedy axed this one);
http://tinyurl.com/32cp3

Operation Gladio is a prime example;
http://tinyurl.com/289ldj

What is the common denominator between the above three? General Lyman Lemnitzer. Lemnitzer as a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff thought the invasion of Cuba, which included painting obsolete B26s as Cuban Air Force planes to attack the Cuban Air Force was a great idea! He thought faking the shoot down of a civilian airliner was a better idea! Lemnitzer was in charge of NATO when False Flag terror in Europe got its start in Grand Guignol fashion at the Piazza Fontana bombing in Milan in 1969.

I do agree with a certain, very narrow line of thought, the problem is systemic, but you won't even acknowledge the system which allows these horrors to maneuver, the Invisible Government;

"THERE ARE two governments in the United States today. One is visible. The other is invisible.

The first is the government that citizens read about in their newspapers and children study about in their civics books. The second is the interlocking, hidden machinery that carries out the policies of the United States in the Cold War.

This second, invisible government gathers intelligence, conducts espionage, and plans and executes secret operations all over the globe.

The Invisible Government is not a formal body. It is a loose, amorphous grouping of individuals and agencies drawn from many parts of the visible government. It is not limited to the Central Intelligence Agency, although the CIA is at its heart. Nor is it confined to the nine other agencies which comprise what is known as the intelligence community: the National Security Council, the Defense Intelligence Agency, the National Security Agency, Army Intelligence, Navy Intelligence, Air Force Intelligence, the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research, the Atomic Energy Commission and the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

The Invisible Government includes, also, many other units and agencies, as well as individuals, that appear outwardly to be a normal part of the conventional government. It even encompasses business firms and institutions that are seemingly private.

To an extent that is only beginning to be perceived, this shadow government is shaping the lives of 190,000,000 Americans. Major decisions involving peace or war are taking place out of public view. An informed citizen might come to suspect that the foreign policy of the United States often works publicly in one direction and secretly through the Invisible Government in just the opposite direction.

This Invisible Government is a relatively new institution. It came into being as a result of two related factors: the rise of the United States after World War II to a position of pre-eminent world power, and the challenge to that power by Soviet Communism." - David Wise & Thomas B. Ross, The Invisible Government, Chapter 1. (1964)

----------------------------

"There exists a shadowy government with its own Air Force, its own navy, its own fundraising mechanism, and the ability to pursue its own ideas of the national interest, free from all checks and balances, and free from the law itself." – Senator Daniel K. Inouye during the Iran-contra scandal.

--------------

An extra-governmental force that has been challenging and perplexing the global polity for decades. Please tell me how the Left has tackled this issue, because I guess I blinked and missed it.

All you have is feces to chuck, and plenty of it. You bore me.


--------------

(Not posted at the Guardian: Who knows what form the NSC 5412/2 Special Group takes today. But you can't study a problem that you ignore.)

[Contrite]

49. Which reminds me

why IS there so much resistance to and animosity toward 9/11 "truthers"? Why do people here on this forum, for example, get so tied up in knots over questioning the OCT? What's it to them, anyway?

[Twist_U_Up]

4. Ahh Jeez not this shit again.

It is suggested that those who have trouble with this revisit 10th grade physics, intro to logic 101, and review philosophy of science, scientific theory building and the role of empirical data. Or, failing, that, simply watch the damn thing (WTC 7) collapse. And remember that the terrorists are in Washington DC.

[petgoat]

5. Joseph Cannon (cannonfire) has had the same reaction, lumping all

controlled-demolition-theorists together with those who emailed
death threats to him.

When I suggested that some of those people might be operating under
a false flag, he deleted my post.

[Bushwick Bill]

6. Monbiot goes ballistic.

9/11 fantasists pose a mortal danger to popular oppositional campaigns

These conspiracy idiots are a boon for Bush and Blair as they destroy the movements some of us have spent years building

George Monbiot
Tuesday February 20, 2007
The Guardian

'You did this hit piece because your corporate masters instructed you to. You are a controlled asset of the new world order ... bought and paid for." "Everyone has some skeleton in the cupboard. How else would MI5 and special branch recruit agents?" "Shill, traitor, sleeper", "leftwing gatekeeper", "accessory after the fact", "political whore of the biggest conspiracy of them all".

These are a few of the measured responses to my article, a fortnight ago, about the film Loose Change, which maintains that the United States government destroyed the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon. Having spent years building up my leftwing credibility on behalf of my paymasters in MI5, I've blown it. I overplayed my hand, and have been exposed, like Bush and Cheney, by a bunch of kids with laptops. My handlers are furious.

<snip>

I believe, too, that the Bush government seized the opportunity provided by the attacks to pursue a longstanding plan to invade Iraq and reshape the Middle East, knowing full well that Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with 9/11. Bush deliberately misled the American people about the links between 9/11 and Iraq and about Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction. He is responsible for the murder of many tens of thousands of Iraqis.

But none of this is sufficient. To qualify as a true opponent of the Bush regime, you must also now believe that it is capable of magic. It could blast the Pentagon with a cruise missile while persuading hundreds of onlookers that they saw a plane. It could wire every floor of the twin towers with explosives without attracting attention and prime the charges (though planes had ploughed through the middle of the sequence) to drop each tower in a perfectly timed collapse. It could make Flight 93 disappear into thin air, and somehow ensure that the relatives of the passengers collaborated with the deception. It could recruit tens of thousands of conspirators to participate in these great crimes and induce them all to have kept their mouths shut, for ever.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,,2017005,00.html

[MervinFerd]

7. Amen. nt

[Taxloss]

8. MIHOPers just love to send hatemail.

It's standard operating procedure when they don't get their way.

[MervinFerd]

11. That seems to be their major activity.

I am not convinced that the MIHOP crowd is doing as much damage as Monbiot thinks.

If these people were -ever- part of the Left, they were not doing anything effective. It's no real loss that they are now frothing about Controlled Demolition. They were probably frothing with equal ineffectiveness about something equally idiotic before.

The damage was greater in the early days after 911--the theories were less silly and there had not been time to debunk them. So, parts of the Left tolerated this stuff, and it hurt the effort to hold Bush accountable for real failures.

-Now-, the theories have become so transparently idiotic that they need no refutation. The Truthers are an annoyance and a distraction, but not part of the Left.

[Taxloss]

12. I bought Nick Cohen's "What's Left" yesterday, thinking about this.

I think I might be done with the dungeon. There's work to be done elsewhere.

[T_i_B]

14. That's a good subject for a thread elsewhere on DU

I might read that one if it gets into the local library, although I'm certainly not forking out good money for it. My own preconceptions are that Cohen does at least ask the right questions, although often he comes out with all the wrong answers but I'd have to read the book first before deciding wether or not it actually bears out like that.

[Taxloss]

15. He was pro-War, so he's got a LOT of work to do with me.

I'll post about it in the UK forum when I've got somewhere with it. It cost £10, and that was £3 off from £12.99 in Borders!

[MervinFerd]

16. The Dungeon is certainly a time-waster. I've left several times myself.

Never smoked, you know, so I can't Stop Smoking over and over.

If you -do- move along, I hope we will see you at the Grove next year.

[mhatrw]

24. It hurt efforts to hold Bush accountable for his "real failures."

You mean like RW suspicions about Waco stopped the GOP from impeaching Clinton?

How come strong criticism and accusations always energize the right while always "hurting" the left? Please explain. Why are they allowed to broadcast the absolute worst about us to millions of radio listeners every day, while we can't even say what is perfectly obvious about them without "destroying ourselves"?

[Twist_U_Up]

17. It's comments like this that show the 9/11 debunkers level of ignorance.

[Taxloss]

19. Monbiot, Marina Hyde, Purdue University, the Rolling Stone, PM,

they all got bulging mailbags of pure hatred from the MIHOPers. And that's just the examples I can remember off the top of my head.

[Twist_U_Up]

21. Youll have that when you use

those lies to keep people away from the otherwise blatantly obvious reality that 911 was an inside job

Isnt that why you post here ?
To let people know how you feel ?
So their mailbag fills up with facts,questions and hate because its so obvious that these folks are schills for the OCT.
Same thing diffrent side of the coin.
cmon your smarter than that,
I hope

[The Lone Groover]

9. Oh look... we found some people who oppose the OCT...

...arguing with each other.

It must mean the OCT is correct.

Lets have another OCT thread where everyone makes snarky comments and congratulates each other.

[salvorhardin]

10. Nope

It just means that the truthers have nothing but magical thinking and insults on their side. Nothing more. And as Monbiot and every "OCTer" here has pointed out a ridiculous number of times, none of us believe anything more than the evidence allows. Bush and crew are still evil and the 9-11 Commission report was still a whitewash.

[petgoat]

18. Nothing but magical thinking and insults.

I see. No 115 points of omission and distortion in the 9/11 Commission Report.
No 200 out of 300 questions from the 9/11 widows that got no response at all.
No tower turning to dust in mid air with no mechanism for the expressive expulsion of the dust.
No suppressed videos, no destroyed steel, no molten metal.
No DoD refusal to discuss the Mohammed Atta who trained at Pensacola.
No 100-minute stand-down of the air defense.

Just insults and magical thinking.

[Taxloss]

13. There's a "hide thread" tool. n/t

[sweetheart]

33. snark

ha!

monbiot is a paid schill repeating his masters visions for a peanut.

[rman]

20. One would think Loose Change is the only docu about 9/11

[mhatrw]

23. Here's what's funny. Supposedly, a ragtag band of 19 Arab hijackers could

pull off 9/11 alone no problem, but any talk of state sponsored or abetted 9/11 terror is akin to believing in magic!

[cali]

God that;s a racist remark.

ragtag arabs? Sheesh. They were, by and large, an educated middle class group. And have you even heard of assymetrical warfare? For fuck's sake, there's nothing odd or bizarre or unbelievable about 9/11 being carried out by a Al-Qaeda- or any other non-governmental group. All it took was planning and money and smarts.

[mhatrw]

59. Ragtag means disparate. Do you also think "niggardly" is racist?

Why is it so easy to believe that a loose knit band of Arabs with no insider access could pull off 9/11 without a hitch while at the same time so impossible to believe that any of the best funded state intelligence organizations or best trained state intelligence assets in the world could have had any hand in it?

How does that make any rational sense?

[cali]

52. God that;s a racist remark.

ragtag arabs? Sheesh. They were, by and large, an educated middle class group. And have you even heard of assymetrical warfare? For fuck's sake, there's nothing odd or bizarre or unbelievable about 9/11 being carried out by a Al-Qaeda- or any other non-governmental group. All it took was planning and money and smarts.

[Contrite]

50. Gross exaggeration and distortion of what so-called "CTers" think

"capable of magic"

"hundreds of onlookers"

"relatives of the passengers collaborated"

"recruit tens of thousands of conspirators"

And this part is particularly offensive:

The 9/11 conspiracy theories are a displacement activity. A displacement activity is something you do because you feel incapable of doing what you ought to do. A squirrel sees a larger squirrel stealing its horde of nuts. Instead of attacking its rival, it sinks its teeth into a tree and starts ripping it to pieces. Faced with the mountainous challenge of the real issues we must confront, the chickens in the "truth" movement focus instead on a fairytale, knowing that nothing they do or say will count, knowing that because the perpetrators don't exist, they can't fight back. They demonstrate their courage by repeatedly bayoneting a scarecrow.

Oh, is that right? Speaking personally, I'd rather be able to accept the simple explanation that 19 hijackers crashed into those towers and that the fire was enough to produce the results we saw on tee-vee. And I'd rather believe that we attacked Iraq because we had a legitimate reason to do so. It's MUCH harder to face the explanation that this was an inside job, perpetrated so that the PNAC wet dream of never-ending wars in the Middle East and U.S. worldwide military supremacy could go forward. It would be so much easier to just accept the OCT and convince myself I can "trust" the government and all that it tells us.

The only squirrels in this scenario are the neoconservative/cryptofascist/Zionist/corporatists and the horde of nuts (and by the way, Monbiot, we see the misspelling, very funny) are the band of morons who defend them and THEIR fairytale. Would that we could directly attack the rival but sadly the rival is surrounded by a mountain of bullshit. So we attack the bullshit instead. The perpetrators exist--they just won't allow us to engage them in a fair fight. The only scarecrow we are left to "bayonet" is the one unaffectionately referred to as the "media", standing guard over the field with its chaff-filled head. I don't know where exactly chickens fit into the entirely strange mixed metaphor you've scribed--do chickens attack scarecrows?--but I think it's about time they came home to roost.

[LARED]

51. particularly offensive

It's interesting how we perceive things differently. I thought it was a particularly accurate observation.

[Contrite]

53. He meant it to be offensive and it was.

I see no need for these attacks. The meme that people looking hard at the OCT somehow "hurts the left" is just not so any more than people questioning JFK's assassination did so. There is a new aggressive attack on "CTers" afoot that only fuels the suspicion many of us already have. There is nothing wrong with expecting the whole story to make sense. In fact, I think there is something wrong with accepting the whole story without question.

[Bolo Boffin]

54. "The meme that people looking hard at the OCT somehow 'hurts the left'"

The problem is not looking hard at the OCT, whatever that is.

The problem is not asking hard questions about the OCT.

The problem is asking wacked-out, nonsensical questions that drown out hard questions about the OCT.

[Contrite]

55. On this, I must respectfully disagree.

People have a right to ask questions, however "extreme" they may seem to other people. It is up to each person to decide, for themselves, what makes sense and what does not. We are each capable of critical thought and have the ability to decide what is worth consideration and what is not. Simply because I or you do not subscribe to a particular concept or possibility does not negate someone else's right to investigate it. Although I may believe some of the theories are indeed wacky I respect another person's right to believe in it and look for supportive evidence. It does not hurt "the left" anymore than Rush Limbaugh hurts "the right". Do all conservatives listen to Rush or Ann or believe what they say? Does anyone seriously think that all conservatives do? If one side can engage in extremes (and even in Rush's and Ann's case, outright lies), why not the other?

[mhatrw]

22. Moonbiat goes off the deep end.

How in the hell does not buying the party line about 9/11 hurt opposition to the party line?

What, because Monbiot got his little feelings hurt by a few left wing 9/11 extremists?

Have right wing extremists (who exist in far greater numbers and even have their own radio shows listened to by millions) destroyed the GOP? Why is it that RW extremist sentiment -- no matter how irrational -- helps the right? While in contrast, limpy lefties like Monbiot are always warning us that any left wing extremism -- no matter how rational or persuasive -- will somehow destroy the left?

[muriel_volestrangler]

25. It harms the reputation of places like DU

To a lot of people, DU is the place with the nutty beliefs about 9/11.

[mhatrw]

26. To a lot of which people?

Why hasn't Rush Limbaugh destroyed the "reputation" of the GOP in that case?

[MervinFerd]

27. I would prefer to maintain higher standards than Rush Limbaugh.

But that's just me.

[mhatrw]

28. The point remains the same. Why can THEY throw ANYTHING

they want against the wall to see what sticks, while we can't even point out the obvious (the official stories about 9/11 are mighty fishy) without supposedly "destroying our cause"?

[MervinFerd]

29. Well, Limbaugh never got as far out as Pod Planes and Dustification.

Vince Foster Murder and etc were BS, but not clearly insane.

To be totally clear: The present complaint is about the theories that have gone long past implausible and reached delusional. "Dustification" and Pentagon No Plane etc will label anyone associated as of doubtful sanity. Or maybe leave no doubt at all.

[mhatrw]

34. That is hilarious. Thanks for showing your true colors. n/t

[MervinFerd]

58. In what way have I "shown my true colors"?

Limbaugh isn't as insane as Judy Wood? Or as obviously dishonest as Dylan Avery?

[petgoat]

31. Then please clean up your act. nt

[muriel_volestrangler]

30. For crying out loud, DU is meant to be better than the GOP

The GOP is corrupt, stupid, bigoted, anti-intellectual, and has an awful reputation around the world. And it's mainly the politicians in it who've achieved that - but Limbaugh has helped (the first I heard of him was a news report saying something like "talk show host Limbaugh said something controversial ...", followed but a cut to a stupid idiot mouthing off. I assumed that was the caller, and Limbaugh would reply - but it turned out the idiocy was his. I couldn't believe people would tune in to such a jerk).

I found DU when someone on another forum started linking to the absurd theories put forward by some people here. I looked around, and found there was sanity here too. When I've told other people about it, a typical reaction after they've looked is "yeah, but there's some nutty stuff on there ...".

[MervinFerd]

32. Hate and simplistic answers work for the Right. That's who they are.

Scumbags like Limbaugh appeal to people's fears and prejudices and mental deficiencies. It's what they do.

Scumbags like Dylan Avery also appeal to these same factors. And enough mental defectives will listen so that Avery will make a mint. But he will not win elections for Democratic candidates.

And I wouldn't want him to, even if it worked.

[mhatrw]

35. That happens whenever you don't allow establishment censorship

to reign supreme.

So what? Some people are very attracted to the freedom of consideration that establishment types like you deem to be "nutty." Why is that such a big problem? I mean, we are all already in the dungeon here, aren't we? What more to you want? Newspeak?

[LeftishBrit]

36. To an extent, he has.

E.g. it's quite possible that his rantings cost his party the Senate seat in Missouri, and thus control of the Senate.

Anyway, do we want to be like him?

The right put forward official and semi-official conspiracy theories that led to utter disaster: "WMD!"; "Saddam MIHOP!" Surely this should make the left even more cautious about promoting and believing conspiracy theories until proven. I am all for further investigations of 9-11, but not for accepting accusations without proof.

[mhatrw]

37. Great. So Limbaugh - -- not BushCo, Iraq or Talent -- lost

the Missouri Senate race?

That's funny. As is equating private citizens' legitimate and largely suppressed questions about 9/11 with BushCo's transparent but 100% corporate media and establishment politician endorsed and oft repeated lies about Iraq's supposed WMDs.

[rman]

38. DU polls show a majority does not buy the official story

National polls show the same.

[muriel_volestrangler]

39. No DU polls have ever been answered by a majority of active DUers

on any subject at all (I think there's an estimate of 10,000 active users; it's several thousand, anyway, because the fund drives reach 1,000 donors pretty quickly). They can't really show anything apart from "those interested at that time, and who saw the poll". "Not buying the official story" can also include "the government is covering up its incompetence". If a proper national poll thought the government had information they could have used to stop the attacks, and knowingly let them go ahead, that would be significant - but I haven't heard of a poll saying that.

[greyl]

40. Yes, I was going to say that the national result equals "Bushco is probably lying about something".

Nothing more specific can be extrapolated.

[Taxloss]

41. Also, 9/11 polls are swiftly moved to the dungeon.

Further limiting their pool of potential responders.

[rman]

42. Hardly half of US citizens vote in National elections -

yet the results do matter.

Your request for poll citing specific claims re 9/11 coverup kinda sounds like Rice telling us she could have stopped 9/11 if only she had known the seat numbers of the terrorist.

Point is, it's not crazy to doubt that the government is telling the truth, whatever the reason for that doubt is.

Besides, down here in the basement we have long since gotten over the "it makes us look bad" (but you might not know that, as you're new in the basement). It's not a rational argument, and if someone want to make DU look bad all they have to do is post a message claiming that Bush caused the tsunami.

[muriel_volestrangler]

43. What I was doing was spelling out "LIHOP" in words

and that doesn't go anywhere near as far as "Loose Change" - which is what Monbiot is attacking.

No, doubting what the government says - especially Bush's one - is a good starting point. But many non-political engineers and scientists are being not just doubted, but dismissed, because their conclusions don't show that Bush brought down the towers on purpose.

[rman]

44. For the time being, percieved public consensus has it

that "many non-political engineers and scientists" who's conclusion do support the official story, are main stream rather than dismissed and doubted.

And btw, "LIHOP" is also "on purpose". LIHOP implies less hands-on involvement than MIHOP, but it does not mean any less responsibility for the results.

[muriel_volestrangler]

45. Yes, I don't think the consensus in the 9/11 forum is the same as the general public

And yes, when I said "knowingly let them go ahead", I take that to mean "on purpose" - and would make the government culpable.

[rman]

46. I think general public opinion is reflected in the polls i mentioned,

(which are much the same for DU and the rest of the world).

Perceived public consensus (aka manufactured consent) on the other hand is reflected in the corporate MSM.

Surely those (supposedly irrelevant) polls would be mentioned by those media if the polls would indicate a majority does accept the official story.

[RovianPlot]

56. Calling other's "crazy" is one of the oldest forms of silencing dissent

Also, from what I've seen, the GOP are the only one's who call DU "nutty" and it is usually over things other than 9-11.
People have the free choice to believe what they want, although if this attempt at shutting them up continues to grow, we may lose that right. That is what is at stake, not various movement's, those would fail anyway under this regime, does this author actually believe the Bush administration would be enacting Global Warming legislation right now, if not for 9-11 ? Of course not. You've got to wonder what the true motivation is here.

[MervinFerd]

57. And spreading crazy bullshit theories is among the most effective.

Who's going to rational discussion, while Dylan Avery spreads preposterous lies?

[number6]

47. Moonbutt has a exaggerated sense of self importance

'These conspiracy idiots are a boon for Bush and Blair as they destroy the movements some of us have spent years building"


"Having spent years building up my leftwing credibility on behalf of my paymasters in MI5, I've blown it. I overplayed my hand, and have been exposed, like Bush and Cheney, by a bunch of kids with laptops. My handlers are furious." ha ha

[MervinFerd]

48. Good. Articulate, intellectual rebuttal.

Always good to see ideas clearly articulated, and disagreements rationally discussed..