The Desperation of the Truth Movement

[greyl]

February 11, 2007

ref:

What is the state of the truth movement at the moment? I think it is on a rapid decline. The peak of the movement came somewhere in 2006, around 5 years after 9/11. After that peak, the movement's drive started changing it's direction and is increasingly pointing downwards.

Some recent events pinpoint the increasing desperation of the movement.

• Loose Change FC has not yet been released. The fact, that whatever they put in their new film has already been debunked, put's them in a deep hole. Their last film has been so popular but also so debunked. They can not make the previous claims anymore and they don't have new ones. Truth Movement wants the FC to be it's saviour. The pressure is on Avery & co to produce something new. And everybody else is waiting to debunk them. They would be better off never releasing a new film. But the Movement demands it. They can not win.

• The Movement is now relying on very suspicious, most likely fake evidence. The recent anonymous EMT Mike -letter is a prime example. Obvious falsehoods throughout the letter, but they promote it like a shining star proof.

• They start recycling old claims. This can be seen in prisonplanet.com. They don't have any new theories to post, so to keep the Movement alive they have recently posted many old stories to keep the theories alive.

• The Movement has divided into multiple subgroups. The Scholars split. JDX sent an e-mail attacking Dylan. Killtown vs. PDoh. Missiles, No Planes, Beam Weapons, LIHOP, no unity.

• They do not research. The alive claims could be easily proven. But according to David Ray Griffin, the Movement has no money to do that really tiny bit of research to prove at least one single point of their theories. But they have money to make films. They get salaries, at least the Scholars do. They tour the world lecturing. Griffin was in Denmark, William Rodriguez is on a UK tour. Those are arranged by the local truth movements. But they have no money to go to Middle East? Or contact some local people there? No, that would prove that their claims are wrong.

• Debunkers have done a good job. All Truther claims have been addressed. A couple of years ago there was not so much debunking, so the films and claims seemed more believable. Nowadays it is known that they are full of falsehoods.

• Truthers can not organize. They have no leader, or a bright star. They now try to protest on 11th of every month, by that is not organized at all. No places mentioned, no times mentioned, no agenda mentioned, no organizers mentioned. No success expected.

• They eat out their own credibility by not changing their views on debunked facts. People are seeing the desperation when impossible claims are not revised or corrected. They are repeated.

So what does that leave the Truth Movement with? It leaves them in a struggle with ever decreasing popularity. It leaves them with false hopes that LCF will be their saviour. It leaves them with made up evidence and recycling to keep their theories alive. It leaves them with big hopes of a new celebrity to join their ranks to gain some desperate visibility, but they have only managed to get Charlie Sheen, David Lynch and Michael Moriarty. And no visibility. It will eventually leave them with only few hardcore CT'ers, like Alex Jones, who will have some minor cult-like following. And it leaves them twisting every future event to fit their CT view of the world. Just in case somebody would join their ranks after seeing those claims. Because, what if the leaders are not telling us everything... What if there still is the New World Order out there.. What if..

[StrictlyRockers]

1. LMAO! That's beyond ridiculous.

You are the little fishy swimming after the big shark trying to pick up his scraps. Look, look everybody! The big shark tried to show a picture he thought was interesting! And it's not serious research! ZOMG! Alert the media!

Wow Paul, if you fart they are going to say you are trying to cause a tornado.

LMFAO at you! Ridiculous.

SR

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[StrictlyRockers]

3. Yeah, well post something worth arguing against and I'll rebut it. This is all just pure hogwash.

"The 9/11 Truth Movement is shrinking because I really wish it were so" is also not a worthy argument. I don't see the point of debating a diatribe which contains ideas like that.

"Loose Change has been totally debunked because I very much want that to be true" is also not worth arguing against.

And even though they admit that LC is hugely popular already, and about to be re-released with a production and marketing budget in the multiple (tens of?) millions of dollars and not just a couple of thousand like the first one, it somehow is totally without merit for having a couple of inaccuracies.

I'm afraid it does not work like that. LC is credible and raises far too many questions to be ignored by sensible persons. But there ARE much better movies on 9/11 Truth out there. I agree with him on that.

SR

[greyl]

4. StrictlyRockers: "LC {Loose Change} is credible"

Why didn't you just tell me?
Bye.

[Bolo Boffin]

13. Even Dylan, Bermas, and Rowe admit that LC 1 and 2 is not "credible".

Mistakes were made and left in "on purpose".

There's your LIHOP/MIHOP. Dylan made LC lies happen on purpose in order to stimulate research.

And by "stimulate," he meant "rake in," and by "research," he meant "cash."

[Contrite]

22. Not to mention

"All Truther claims have been addressed."

Oh, have they? And have they all been "debunked"?

[Contrite]

21. Yeah and he didn't even have his facts straight!

:rofl: :dunce:

[hack89]

5. 2008 will be the death of the truth movement

so much of it is driven by hatred for Bush - when he is replaced by a Democrat and the "truth" still does not come out then the movement fade away. Hillary or Obama (or who ever is elected) will not start their presidency by announcing a new 911 investigation.

[StrictlyRockers]

6. That would suck.

My feeling is that more and more people are learning more and more about the subject every day. As that happens, more people spread their ideas with each other and they are all being woken up to the problems here that raise big questions. The thing may have already reached a critical mass that is snowballing and will be impossible to stop no matter who is in office.

Honestly, I think there is some chance you are right about 2008. But right now I see the movement building a lot of inertia. That inertia will eventually clash with another musch bigger inertia. At some point we may get some real breakthroughs on this. I think the clash will keep happening again and again until we get some real answers.

It is hard to predict. I intend to keep fighting the good fight. I am very curious to see what will happen.

SR

[greyl]

7. Are you on the power grid? Are you funding a dying culture?

Do you buy food, or do you acquire it like humans have done for 3 million years?
Do you hate your job and have some sense that your life is more important than making others more money?

Are you truly free, or have you anointed yourself a soldier in some niche industry built on human susceptibility to myth which serves to distract people from dire issues supported by science, logic, and evidence, while marketing itself as non-conformist?

Are you like the money grubbing liars and opportunists Avery, Bermas, and Rowe, or are you a truly free-thinking individual?

edit:clrty

[StrictlyRockers]

9. I am thankful that there are full-time researchers delving into this subject.

I smell a rat. I trust my gut. It is never wrong.

SR

[greyl]

10. 6 questions, and you didn't attempt to address 1. nt

[StrictlyRockers]

15. I addressed two fo them.

That was enough for me to see that the remainder were not worth my time.

SR

[jberryhill]

14. oh, then, okay....

People who are "never wrong" have a great track record.

[StrictlyRockers]

16. Thanks for putting words into my mouth. I didn't say I am never wrong.

I am wrong a lot. All the time. Maybe even as much as you.

It's when I remember to trust my gut, that I am never wrong. You should try it, but only if you have the same degree of intestinal fortitude that I have cultivated.

SR

[Bolo Boffin]

18. You remember what Colbert said about trusting your gut? n/t

[hack89]

12. I disagree about the interia ..

I live in a very blue state and it is not a topic of conversation - I can't ever recall it coming up in casual conversation. It is primarily an internet phenomena and you can't lose track of the fact that very few people spend the time we do on the web and in the blogs.

All everyone wants to talk about is the war.

[LARED]

8. I'm not sure it will every completely die

When a demo wins in 08, there will not be a new investigation and many will either get disillusioned, or their hatred for Bush will have been satisfied. But 9/11 CT'er will continue to abound at the fringes but they will be politically marginalized.

My 2¢

[MervinFerd]

11. JFK conspiracies never died; but they never got this weird.

Most of the issues are already moot. It would have been useful in 2002 or '03 to have open (rational) discussions of the multiple failures that led to 911. The Truth movement had quite a lot to do with preventing that. (The fact that Dem leadership consisted of geldings helped also.)

But, now Bush is skewered on Iraq; further evidence of his incompetence and fecklessness adds little.

It might still be useful to have a slightly irrational movement focused on "connections" between Saudis, Pakistan, American Intelligence agencies etc. This might force real investigations, as the JFK assasination crowd forced investigations into that event. Alas, the Truthers have dived into insanity.

I think there will always be Truther sites advocating the nutty theories--it will become part of the general WooWoo underground. But the days as a part of the Left are done.

[Contrite]

23. Right, just like the JFK "truth movement" died. n/t

[truth01]

17. 9/11 truth is steadily growing

Anyone who looks at the government story about 9/11 will quickly see that it is a big lie, with the exception of these categories:

* People who can not handle the truth
* People who did not pass high school physics
* People who are being paid to look the other way
* People who are being paid to try to convince others that the government story is not a big lie

More and more people each day see that 9/11 was a false flag operation.

More and more people each day share 9/11 truth with others.

That is why 9/11 truth is steadily growing.

[MervinFerd]

19. Oh. OK. That settles it.

But, I guess there are a lot of people here who never passed High School Physics.

[truthpowertruth]

20. Boy...

You guys spend a lot of time discrediting so-called "desperate" movements. Sounds like a big waste of time to me. If the movement is such an inane concept to you than history will vindicate you. You have nothing to worry about. The fact that you felt the need to make this post about a supposed diminishing movement shows that you are the one who may be "desperate". You hate the movement for some reason, and this emotion clouds your ability to reasonably use some logic in this case. This whole "debunking" business is fundamentally retarted. It shouldn't matter to you.

[wildbilln864]

24. Outch!

:hi:

[hack89]

25. There is a window of opportunity

to investigate and impeach Bush for failures that allowed 911 to happen. By allowing wacko CTs to become the face of the "truth" movement, that opportunity gets smaller as anyone seeking justice for 911 is tarred as a wingnut by the right wing. If the 911 truth movement didn't exist, Karl Rove would have created it.

[truthpowertruth]

26. You have any evidence...

To support the claim that the discussion of alternative 9/11 theories helps the Bush Administration avoid impeachment? You don't, it's just some opinion you've created to make yourself feel better about wasting your time "debunking".

Also, good on you for trying to prove points to a group of individuals who you feel are intellectually inferior to you and your "debunking" crew. Sounds like logical behavior to me.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

27. You consider the 9/11 Truth (sic) movement

to be intellectually superior to non-L/MIHOPers?

I would imagine that most educated people would laugh in your face. The 9/11 Truth (sic) Movement has already rejected the academic and intellectual Left considering them "Left gatekeepers" for their failure to take the leap of faith which is required with any alternative 9/11 CT.

Consider the 'PROOF' trotted out by L/MIHOPers on this board. Many a time it originates from far-right conspiracists and anti-Semitic groups such as Rense, American Free Press and IHR. Then the Truth (sic) Movement brings out inaccuracies and plain fabrications of its own (Loose Change in its various incarnations comes to mind - and also the use of anti-Semitic sources). Many in the 9/11 Truth (sic) seem to excuse outright lies if it "gets people talking about 9/11" a bizarre excuse for a 'Truth' movement. Then there are the inaccuracies, when persons with lack of expertise try to interpret physical and structural phenonema without expertise, and such practice is endemic in the 9/11 Truth (sic) movement. It doesn't matter to you what structural engineers or forensic investigators say because you can label then as being "part of the conspiracy!!1" and "not brave enough to speak out!" A bizarre position to take considering that the majority of relevant experts on non-US soil have either rejected L/MIHOP or have not given support for it.

Then there is the distinct lack of empiricism. The epistemological grounding of empiricism has been the superstructural modus operandi for academic and professional investigation for most of the 20th Century, taking its cues from the Enlightenment. A significant part of meta-analysis and critique is the concept of peer-review, and it is peer-review which the 9/11 Truth (sic) Movement has rejected. If a school of thought wishes to be taken seriously, it must stand the rigour of peer review but the Truth (sic) Movement choses not to, instead it takes any criticism as a personal attack or interprets the desire for peer review in very conspiracist language. In absence of 'peer review' the Truth (sic) Movement asks people to 'see for themselves' and to 'go with their gut', an invitation to confirmation bias if ever I heard it. Not to mention how remarkably it fits the concept of Truthiness.

You must realise that the L/MIHOP interpretation of events requires acceptance of "revealled knowledge." It is wholly incompatible with serious critical investigation.

[truthpowertruth]

28. Exactly...

Stop wasting your time with people you feel are intellectually inferior to you. You've made your case quite clear. Good for you. Do you enjoy proving a point to people you don't respect? Do you get a reward out of that?

[Bryan Sacks]

31. They think they're doing the heavy lifting for the left establishment

We 'conspiracy theorists' are the left's 'unwashed', you see. We need to be scrubbed for public inspection, or else it reflects poorly on the more 'sensible' elements of the left. Or so they think.

What the 'sensible' left does not see, nor understand, is that the odor they smell comes from their own rotting corpse. Flaccid, temperate liberalism is dead, though the realization has not yet dawned on the majority of leftists. That's their problem. The big Democrats are entirely infiltrated by institutionalized lobbying and do not speak for fair government any more than the Republicans do.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

32. Don't you support the Democratic Party?

This is the Democratic Underground after all.

[Bryan Sacks]

37. I don't support a person simply because they are a democrat n/t

[Bolo Boffin]

38. Have you noticed the name of this website, Bryan?

Are you familiar with the history of this site?

[Bryan Sacks]

41. Ever heard of Stanley Milgram, Bolo? Familiar with his experiments? n/t

[Bolo Boffin]

43. Are you familiar with the history of this site?

Simple question, really. Do you know what has happened around election time here? Do you understand that this is a website devoted to electing Democratic candidates for office?

Do you understand that?

[Bryan Sacks]

47. I understand you are trying to goad me. n/t

[Bolo Boffin]

50. Really? Me?

I'm just holding your previous claims up so everyone can know who you are, Bryan. Think of it as a service to the general public.

[Norrin Radd]

84. Yep. It looks like a not-so-sly attempt to get you to post something to get you banned.

And, I see the old "address someone by his or her user name because it's patronizing in a 'parent scolding a child' sort of way" trick in use against you. Good on you for the reversal.

Apparently, politician = party, and office holders are infallible.

Perhaps noticing and interpreting the second half of the name of this website is in order?

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=underground

[hack89]

34. I am not so certain that the truth movement are entirely the left's unwashed ...

considering how right wing conspiracy sites are so prominent in advancing 911 conspiracies. When links to AFP and Rense keep showing up in this forum and are vigorously defended, it looks to me like the the 911 truth movement in part is simply the latest iteration of right wing paranoid fantasies of black helicopters and world government.

This is another reason why we oppose the truth movement - because some of the company they keep harbors truly evil ideas.

[Bryan Sacks]

39. Guilt by association, Hack. Not fair. But what's worse, not wise.

If one will not take the time to see who keeps company with who, one risks throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

What is poorly understood here at DU, and which goes largely unexamined by many posters here (because they are infected by it), is the psychology of the cleansing impulse that seeks to generate distance between the respectable and the irrational. Why must the left be purified? Are we candidates for sainthood or something? Why can't people say hateful or stupid things - and then have them discussed?

I'm as repelled as anyone by the rot I hear coming from anti-semites, but I don't feel the need to be scrubbed clean after coming into contact with it. Those people with the evil ideas - have you ever try to understand why they resort to such rank bullshit nonsense?

Probably not. Easier to hate them, I suppose.

Hack, I have to say: liberals, despite their basic decency and well-intentioned rhetoric, are in denial about the failure of their political enterprise. It has been sold out and hollowed out, and the shell that is left is called the Democratic party.

It makes me ill to hear people champion Hillary Clinton for 2008 as if she represents something that could seriously return government to something that performs public service, instead of service to corporate domination. There is no denying it. Every Democrat that has a serious chance at the White House is either flaccid or bought and paid for. That's the prerequisite these days. No liberal dare try to defeat the institutionalized criminality of the corporate lobby (even if he or she wanted to). Thus they (liberals) actually pose more of a danger than Republicans, since Republicans tend to show their true colors more readily.

That fact - that irrefutable, bottom, cement-in-stone certainty is far more troubling to me than the ramblings of a fringe idiot. Ignore the idiocy.

[Bolo Boffin]

42. "It makes me ill to hear people champion Hillary Clinton for 2008"...

...why don't you take your Vince Foster CTs elsewhere, Bryan?

[Bryan Sacks]

45. You are a sad case, Bolo. Can't confront arguments, so resort to slander

[Bolo Boffin]

46. There's a little alert button on every post of mine.

You think you see slander, get you a lawyer.

Take your CTs about Vince Foster somewhere else.

[Bryan Sacks]

48. It's about time someone put you on me

Was greyl busy? I'm a little offended I only got you.

Hillary Clinton is bought and paid for. But you are low for insinuating that I claimed she killed Vince Foster.

[Bolo Boffin]

49. Oh, do you believe that Vince Foster committed suicide then?

Have I mistaken your earlier posts alluding to his possible murder?

[Bryan Sacks]

51. Right. Because all who die either are killed by Hillary, or commit suicide, yes?

Jack Riddler provided a plausible scenario from Foster's murder in another thread, which you read. Or have you been reprogrammed since then?

You might stop with the false dichotomies. You show that you have no real interest in dialogue when you do that.

Doesn't matter to me, though. I like you the same amount I always have.

;-)

[Bolo Boffin]

52. Oh, does Riddler believe in idiotic Foster murder scenarios as well?

Figures.

[truthpowertruth]

55. Thank you.

Well said.

[MervinFerd]

79. Did Vince Foster commit suicide? YES or NO.

[Bryan Sacks]

81. Just asking questions, eh, Merv?

Hillary Clinton, I am quite sure, did not kill Vince Foster.

Hillary Clinton, I am also quite sure, was very interested in making sure the Justice Department did not get access to Foster's office after his death.

This is an account from Dan Moldea, who fully believes Foster committed suicide:

Q: (from Salon.com) But didn't Clinton supporters such as Nussbaum raise suspicions by their actions in the aftermath of the suicide?

A: (from Moldea) Yes, there was this general feeling that something was being covered up, and that stemmed from the search of Foster's office when (former white house counsel) Bernie Nussbaum changed the rules of the game and refused to allow the Department of Justice and the Park Police to participate in the search. During the Senate Whitewater Committee it came out that Mrs. Clinton, her chief of staff Maggie Williams and Susan Thomases (the New York attorney who is close friends with both Ms. Williams and Mrs. Clinton), had talked 17 times in a 43-hour period after Foster killed himself. Then Mrs. Thomases calls Nussbaum on the morning of the search, after Nussbaum has agreed to allow the Department of Justice and the Park Police to participate in the search. But after this conversation, Nussbaum changes the rules. He decides to keep all the options and all rights to the search, and then forces the Department of Justice attorneys, David Margolis and Roger Adams, as well as the Park Police guys, Charlie Hume and Pete Markland, to stand there like cigar-store Indians. That is where the conspiracy people believe the coverup began.

http://www.salon.com/news/1998/05/28news2.html

Thus Hillary Clinton, I am also quite sure, is happy to act like a common criminal when she has something important to hide.

And Moldea: "there was this general feeling that something was being covered up". You mean because something was so obviously being covered up?
It does not matter if it wasn't something criminal being covered up, which I am sure is beyond your authority-loving comprehension, Merv. When a person DIES, and when a fair investigation is taking place, you GRANT ACCESS. You don't worry about potentially embarrassing disclosures.

[MervinFerd]

87. You did not answer my question: Did Vince Foster commit suicide?

It's an easy question: YES or NO?

[vincent_vega_lives]

61. Ironic

Go far enough left or right the twain shall meet.

[Bryan Sacks]

30. It is this accomodationist perspective of yours that is the real danger

Being tarred as a 'wingnut' by the right wing means absolutely nothing to me, and it shouldn't mean anything to anyone who's objectivity hasn't been defeated by the Right's attack dogs. By veering away from arguments that will incur the wrath of the Right, you let the right 'win'.

That's your business, and it will be the establishment left's epitaph unless it comes around.

[hack89]

33. You turn your back on the easy case for impeachment

and try to make the case that is so easy to refute. That's what I don't understand. Criminal negligence is would be so easy to prove - thermite, CD, remote control planes, no planes, etc, are impossible to prove. Scientists and engineers would be lining up to take you on.

[Bryan Sacks]

44. But I have not tried to prove any of those things!

And you make my point for me!!! See my posts above about the ruinousness of placing hope in the establishment Democrats, Hack. I agree that impeachment would be so easy - yet where is it??? The beloved Democratic leadership has declared impeachment off the table! Do you not find that appalling?

For my part, I'll be in New York this weekend making a case for impeachment as it pertains to the crimes of 9/11. The focus is on solid stuff - the ignorance of forewarnings and investigative obstruction after the fact.

Thermite, CD, remote control - I am ALL IN FAVOR of informed speculation about them, even though I personally am convinced of none of it. Never have been.

[nomatrix]

54. What a pleasure to read your post

Welcome to DU 9/11 dungeon!

You must have been lurking for some time to notice the same people spend the majority of their lives arguing this.
Hang on.....they'll all be here to tell you that you are wrong, wrong, wrong.

[ThePentaCon]

29. That's all about to change

Well if any of that is at all true...then we are about to help invigorate the movement.

http://www.ThePentaCon.com

[salvorhardin]

35. I hear astroturf is easy to care for

No pesky mowing. And it stays green all year long!

[Twist_U_Up]

36. James Randi the most notorious skeptic of anything and everything.

That site doesnt even make good fish wrap. ewww

now i need to wash my hard drive. thanks :puke:

[quicknthedead]

40. 9/11 was an inside job.

To quote you:
"Debunkers have done a good job. All Truther claims have been addressed."

WRONG.

Why? WTC7: The best, classic controlled demolition we'll ever see in this lifetime.


9/11 was an inside job.
(And it ain't going away soon.)

Now run along as you seem not to care about what really happened on 9/11.
We are in it for truth AND justice.

[wildbilln864]

53. Amen quick!

:hi: You guys shouldn't have to do what you're doing but I'm glad you are. Keep it up and thanks!
Don't ever let the Bush/PNAC CT peddlers discourage you!

[vincent_vega_lives]

62. "classic controlled demolition "

I love the use of the word "classic". Its supposed to give controled demolition some extra significance or somthing? :eyes:

[quicknthedead]

65. Listen to classic music and you might understand. n/t

[vincent_vega_lives]

66. ohhhh good analogy!

Enjoy and good classic controlled demolition concerts lately?

[quicknthedead]

67. Yup...classic is as classic does...as in W-T-C-7 n/t

[vincent_vega_lives]

70. "Classic" Controlled demolition would require one of these

[Bolo Boffin]

71. A wrecking ball!

That takes me back...

[The Lone Groover]

72. I'm constantly amazed at the way some posters make a joke...

..of peoples genuine 9/11 concerns.

[vincent_vega_lives]

73. That's rich

This whole line of reasoning is a joke.

[Bolo Boffin]

74. Yes...

Isn't it just awful when people do that?

[quicknthedead]

85. Yes, and the freakin' joke is on them too. Why? Because...

WTC7 = CD...

Absolutely.

To say otherwise shows just how disingenuous a person is...either that or else how stupid s/he is.

Either way (take your pick), they are a freakin' "footnote-joke" in the crime of the century.

[ima_sinnic]

56. true desperation: OCTers who feel the need to devote huge amounts

of time and energy to "debunking" LIHOP & MIHOP.

why do they CARE so very very much?

dont they think that if there is nothing to LIHOP or MIHOP those theories will die a natural death?

it is almost as if they have something invested in maintaining the status quo of gaping incongruities, inconsistencies, unanswered questions, and outright lies . . .

[greyl]

57. How much time does fostering the truth and combating lies deserve?

You'd have it limited, I presume?

[ima_sinnic]

58. "fostering truth"?

two questions for the OCT cheerleaders, whose official spokesperson is GWBush:
why is your "leader" so unwilling to "get to the bottom of things" as he "said" he was going to?
what's he trying to hide?

and again, if "truth" is on your side what does it gain you to belittle those who aren't quite so gullible as yourself? feeling a wee bit insecure in your "truth"?
You and the rest of the OCTers simply have not provided anything to convice me that the "official version" is anywhere close to the "truth." In fact, there are so many holes and blatant distortions, inconsistencies, and evidence of coverup that it is a joke. But feel free to keep belittling as it just shows you really aren't that sure of yourself. to me, as to the great majority who know deep in their hearts that the OCT is a crock of shit, your motives are only too clear.

[truthpowertruth]

59. What gets me...

Is the amount of anger and bitterness towards the movement. Why invest so much emotion?

[vincent_vega_lives]

63. why do they CARE so very very much?

Because I abhor stupidity.

[ima_sinnic]

68. riiiight .... you are the self-appointed "enlightener"

right up there with "the decider" as an Intellectual Giant. A real crusader in a never-ending whack-a-mole mission of squelching doubters on the One True Path of Enlightenment and Truth. Have you applied to the Church of the Holy Cash Register for a job? They're looking for snake-oil salesmen.

But somehow, I don't think you need another job right now ... :eyes:

[vincent_vega_lives]

78. It all started with the moon landing hoaxers

Many laypeople were convinced by these idiots spouting their pseudo-scientific analysis that originates from an overinflated ego, disappointing ignorance, and unhealthy paranoia. Once shown simple and logical reasoning for the "suspicious deceptions" they were "seeing" most rational people came 'round.

I see much of the same symptoms in these 9-11-01 conspiracy theories. With out a healthy dose of educated reasoning the "Truthers" get free hand to spread the products of either their psychosis or ignorance.

[truthpowertruth]

80. Sounds like a stupid hobby.

Don't you have better things to do than protecting "laypeople"?

[AZCat]

82. That happens to be part of my job.

Laypersons pay me (my company, actually) to make sure that their building (or building system) gets constructed properly. I consider this to be a vital part of any process.

[MervinFerd]

86. "products of either their psychosis or ignorance", You forgot greed.

The Truther movement is now commercial, driven by vendors of lies and fear.

[CJCRANE]

60. The gloves will come off

when * is out of power. Questions about 9/11 will only increase as time goes on and more people hear about the inconsistencies.

I doubt there'll ever be a new investigation though but it will become pretty much be common knowledge/accepted wisdom that Bushco were complicit in some way (just like most people think OJ Simpson is guilty of murdering his wife).

[vincent_vega_lives]

64. wana bet? (n/t)

[ima_sinnic]

69. DUH!--it's already common knowledge

with the exception of a dwindling population of hard-line bush cultists, everybody knows that bushco was complicit in 9/11 in some way.

you mean you didn't? :rofl:

[vincent_vega_lives]

75. Let me get this straight

Everybody knows (I presume that includes you as everyone else is a "hard-line bush cultist") but in some way which everybody is speculating.

So which is it? Do you KNOW or are you speculating? There's a name for being certain of somthing with out evidence. Its called faith.

[ima_sinnic]

76. no--faith is when the evidence is all around you and you choose to

believe in a myth

on edit: just to clarify, operative word "myth" meaning the 9/11 Commission Report. There is endless evidence that that is nothing but expensive toilet paper.

[vincent_vega_lives]

77. I can't comment on the 9-11 Commission Report

so I don't. But I do believe the NIST report is far more credible than any of the "endless evidence" of supposed controlled demolition and what not.

[Myrmidon]

83. It is not the nature of the movement to be authoritarian

i.e. to have one clear leader and one strict party line. This is a good thing, beause a diversity of views and the ensuing debate ensures that when a consensus emerges (and a general consensus certainly has emerged) about a given point, it's pretty well backed-up. Certain things that most everyone agrees on: that guilt lies with individuals within our own government, that war games occured, that explosives brought down WTC7 at the least, the flight 93 was shot down, perhaps -because- passengers were regaining control, that insider trading occured, that the government was watching the patsy hijackers closely with Able Danger, that it's mighty suspicious about funding from the head of Pakastan's ISI funding Atta, all while their head was in DC meeting with our millitary leaders on 9/11, etc. One of the Loose Change guys was on Alex Jones' show the other day, and he compared the movement to Voltron, i.e. all of us come together around the mantra that the government position was a lie, and that together we're stronger than we are individually. But because we can seperate and recombine, there's no way for the government to stop us, aside from flooding the web with intentionally stupid theories like holographic planes.