911 facts....

[wildbilln864]

Posted elsewhere by someone. Thought I'd share this list. The poster asserts that these are known facts which I know some of which have been denied as facts here in this forum.
What does your inductive reasoning tell ya?
His point is to avoid theories not based on fact. Any thoughts?


snip/
1. Building #7 fell without ever being hit by a plane and with only fires on a couple floors.
2. All three buildings fell at almost freefall speed.
3. No time in human history has a steel constructed building ever completely collapsed because of fire.
4. Larry Silverstein said that they decided to “pull it” on PBS
5. Many eye witnesses heard several bombs going off in the towers
6. The FBI does not list Bin Laden as wanted for 911
7. Operation North Woods depicts self induced terror attacks on the American people.
8. The White House has fought the investigation the entire time
9. The pentagon, although reamed with cameras has never released a video of a plane.
10. There were mock terror drills going on at the same time about the same type of attack.
11. NORAD did not respond quickly.
12. The secret service did not do their job by whisking the president away at the first sign of possible danger.
13. There were multiple warnings by several people in our country and abroad that there was an impending attack.



14. Marvin Bush was in charge of security at the WTC right up until 911
15. The WTC 1 and 2 were shut down for long periods for the first time in history shortly before 911.
16. There are hundreds of scholars, professionals, and high ranking government officials who have questioned 911 or point blank said it was a false flag.
17. Larry Silverstein profited from the destruction
18. Larry Silverstein who owned the WTC 7 bought the entire complex shortly before 911 with terrorist coverage.
19. There were “put” options much higher than usual placed on United and American Airline stocks.
20. The day before 911 Donald Rumsfeld told congress the pentagon lost 2.3 trillion dollars.
/end snip.

What's missing?
:hide:

[SidDithers]

1. What you call facts...

aren't.

Sid

[wildbilln864]

2. and that's your ....

opinion which also is not fact. Just sayin...

on edit: at least until you show evidence.

[greyl]

3. No, fact is your list has untruths in it.

wildbilln864: "at least until you show evidence."

I thought the 9/11 forum was where the case for Inside Job was being constructed?
If so, the burden of proof is on you. If there's no evidence, there's no case.

In any case, do you have a coherent theory that brings the list in the OP together, or did you just paste it here to give other people something to do?

[wildbilln864]

5. you say...

"I thought the 9/11 forum was where the case for Inside Job was being constructed?"

But admit, this is just your flawed assumption.
And the coherent theory is the responsibility of the investigators when it begins. All I'm interested in is dissiminating info about the circumstances to those who may come to view it. I have no theory that ties it all together. No one has! Oh, I forgot, you do. If I remember right it relies on a whole lot of coincidences? There is too many related facts which are hidden IMO. After all I've learned quite alot myself about 911 since joining and paying attention. The case of 911 has too, too many loose ends!

[greyl]

9. That was being facetious, not assuming.

Just so I understand, are you saying this forum isn't where the case for Inside Job is being constructed?

[Bolo Boffin]

4. Why don't you show some?

Slowing down and focusing on one of your threads at a time will go a long way toward promoting discussion.

[wildbilln864]

50. there will be....

plenty of time for you to catch up. :hi:

[rman]

6. Marvin Bush and WTC security

Security company Securacom/Stratesec did handle security at the WTC, and still handles security at Dulles Airports and United Airlines.

Marvin Bush was never head of Securacom/Stratesec, but he was a principal at the company until 2000. Bush cousin Wirt D Walker III was CEO there from 1999 to 2002, and the company did install a new $8.3 million security system at the WTC between 1996 and 2000.

Even though Securacom/Stratesec is a security "consultant" company, it does identify itself as a special kind of consultant: it is a "single-source provider of end-to-end security services", including everything from diagnosis of existing systems to hiring subcontractors to installing video and electronic equipment. It also provides armored vehicles and security guards.

Flight 77 (Pentagon) took of from Dulles airport, Flight 93 (Shanksville) and Flight 175 (WTC south tower) were United Airlines planes.

Before and during 9/11 Securacom/Stratesec was (indirectly) involved with three of the four planes, and one of the two targets of 9/11. The Bush family was involved with Securacom/Stratesec before and during 9/11.


sources:

Security, Secrecy and a Bush Brother
By Margie Burns
http://www.populist.com/03.02.burns.html

9/11 Mysteries
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6708190071483512003 (see at 1h4m)

[Anarcho-Socialist]

7. What's missing?

Some fact-checking would be nice. Of course it seems that one does not have to be so beholden to fact-checking if one is "just asking questions" or "getting people to talk about 9/11."

[mogster]

8. You're missing a gif or two

This shows the remaining standing structure after WTC1 being demolished.


This shows the building 7 being demolished.

[MervinFerd]

10. The Fallacy of the Infinite List.

I've been working on a list of logical fallacies common to all Conspiracy Theories.

This one is an excellent example of the "Fallacy of the Infinite List". This list, plainly, can be extended out to as many items as anyone has the inclination to do. Just scan the news and pick items vaguely related to 911. The items don't have to be probative of anything, they don't have to add up to anything coherent, and they don't even have to be true.

The reader is just supposed to think that there is -some- significance, somewhere. Some valid argument if we just keep adding items. Some coherent hypothesis, if we just dare to think it. After all the list is already --so-- long.



It's interesting that we seem to be returning to this most ancient of Conspiracy Fallacies after years of pseudoscientific "proof" of Controlled Demolition or Thermate or faked airplanes. Perhaps another indication of the breakup of the Great Truther Movement.

[elias7]

21. how about appeal to authority

Isn't this the basis of many attacks all non-OCT questions? Isn't there anything you find strange about the OCT?

[MervinFerd]

22. This particular list would still be nonsense.

But, no, "attacks on all non-OCT questions" are not appeals to authority. The evidence is there and it is based on standard and valid logic.

[elias7]

31. I guess what I mean is

by accepting the OCT, we can try to invalidate non-OCT arguments firstly because we perceive the deviation as not supported by authority driven conclusions. If the evidence, as you say, is there and is based on valid logic, but one is concerned for bias driven conclusions- 911 report/ NIST report- isn't it an appeal to authority to refute an argument based on those conclusions?

[wildbilln864]

11. Well so far....

none of the list is disputed here.
Attacking the messengers as usual! That's all you got!?
You guys are a riot!
So far no evidence has been presented here to dispute even one item on the list! We'll have to accept these as facts until they are disputed. So does anyone have evidence otherwise? Opinions don't count!

[Bolo Boffin]

12. :eyes:

You know danged well items on that list are disputed, and outright falsified, by the actual facts. You could probably summarize the main points of disputation yourself.

[wildbilln864]

13. well bright one...

which ones? By who?
:eyes:

[Bolo Boffin]

14. Won't it be nice when we have a Democratic president...

and you can start compiling Clinton Death lists?

[mattmiller]

16. here's a FACT that is actually a fact

this video has never been seen outside of DU. it is a clip that is part of an 8 hour DVD, which in itself poses a significant fact: the FBI didn't hit the doubletree hotel until at least late in the night on 9/11. that's a fact, because the camera rolls into the night on 9/11.

so here is a fact: http://www.flight77.info/doubleclip2.mpg

this impact happens at 9.34.12. maybe some video wizzard can translate the image in a way that is better than we can see at first notice.

M!

[Bolo Boffin]

17. And? n/t

[Make7]

15. Perhaps you should read the previous responses again. ( n/t )

[SidDithers]

18. How does one hear a bomb?...

I mean, you can hear an explosion. Or you can hear something that sounds like a bomb.

But you can't hear a bomb. You can only guess that what you heard was a bomb.

So there, number 5 is not a fact. It is an assumption which cannot be validated without physical evidence.

Sid

[SidDithers]

19. See JackRiddler's excellent post about Marvin Bush...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=113081&mesg_id=113081

It's clear that Marvin Bush was not "in charge of security at the WTC right up until 911", so there's another one of your "facts" down in flames.

Sid

[wildbilln864]

24. Excellent...

.

[SidDithers]

25. Thank you...nt

Sid

[wildbilln864]

27. so you can only find one that is not fact!

:toast:

[SidDithers]

29. You said they were ALL facts...

Is this how you present your arguments? Throw as much shit up against the wall, and see what sticks and what doesn't?

You claimed that all the items in the list were factual. Now you're agreeing with me that the entire list isn't factual. Why should I believe you about any of the other items, when you've obviously been careless about including an untruth in a list you claim is factual. Seems to me that your list has a bit of a credibility problem.

Sid

[wildbilln864]

37. What I said was another poster posted....

this list as facts. I beleieve they are except for maybe one or two.

[SidDithers]

46. Have you gone back so that the poster can ammend their list...

after all, you wouldn't want a list of "facts" to contain untruths, would you?

Sid

[BrokenBeyondRepair]

20. interesting responses..

do you ever get the feeling you're in a room surrounded by one person?

[wildbilln864]

47. yes...

I do.

[wildbilln864]

48. kicking...

:hi:

[mirandapriestly]

23. The only problems are 14 and 15

Marvin was on the board of directors for a company that handled security for the world trade center and , I believe Dulles airport, (alleged flight77) but the fact that Saudis partially owned it is as interesting. The fact he was gone before 9-11 doesn't matter and people who try to dismiss it totally are wrong, the facts just need to be straight. And 15, I think, has just one witness, although a credible witness, so that should be clarified. I would add to # 20 that not only was the money missing, but the excuse was given by Zakheim, I think, that records for the money couldn't be provided because they were destroyed in the 9-11 attack . That is what makes the missing dough noteworthy.
other than that, looks pretty damning doesn't it? and that is just a perfunctory off the top of the head, list.

Let's see , you can add that the first CNN witness from the AirForce at the Pentagon said that he saw a military helicopter disappear behind the Pentagon followed by an explosion and nothing else...

[wildbilln864]

26. Thank you Miranda....

but the rest other than 14 and 15 are known facts?

[greyl]

28. some advice from a 911Truth site:

"...check things for yourself. Don’t trust a site just because it’s telling you what you want to believe. Don’t believe us without evaluating our arguments and checking the references we provide, either (we’re as likely to make mistakes as anyone else). Look into the claims yourself, discover both sides of the argument, and make your own mind up. THE TRUTH DESERVES NOTHING LESS!!!!"

[mirandapriestly]

33. I've checked all of those.....twice.(and more)eom

[wildbilln864]

38. well said greyl...

That's what I've been trying to do.
And you are so correct, "the truth deserves nothing less!"

[greyl]

39. Thanks, but I didn't say it. It's from 911myths.com. nt

[mirandapriestly]

32. Yes!...wow, huh?

[LARED]

30. a response

1. Building #7 fell without ever being hit by a plane and with only fires on a couple floors.

It is not a fact that fire was only on a couple of floors.

2. All three buildings fell at almost freefall speed.

Depends on how you define "almost". The WTC 1&2 fell at about 50% slower than freefall

3. No time in human history has a steel constructed building ever completely collapsed because of fire.

That might be a fact. If it is so what. This is also the first time in human history a jumbo jet crashed into a steel framed building designed like the WTC

4. Larry Silverstein said that they decided to “pull it” on PBS

Fact. yes, relationship to a CT, most dubious.

5. Many eye witnesses heard several bombs going off in the towers

Not fact. Eyewitness hear explosions, not bombs. There are zero eyewitness to bombs.

6. The FBI does not list Bin Laden as wanted for 911

And this fact means what?

7. Operation North Woods depicts self induced terror attacks on the American people.

My three year old once drew a picture of the house being eaten by monsters. I don't believe my house will some day be eaten by monsters.

8. The White House has fought the investigation the entire time

Ok you win this one. Although characterizing it as "entire time" is not quite true

9. The pentagon, although reamed with cameras has never released a video of a plane.

Reamed?

10. There were mock terror drills going on at the same time about the same type of attack.

Were they terror drills or emergency response drills. Also for the ten thousandth time having drills are fairly routine activities.


11. NORAD did not respond quickly.

True if you said quickly enough. But you instead characterize it a a deliberate slow response of which you have zero evidence for.

12. The secret service did not do their job by whisking the president away at the first sign of possible danger.

This is not a fact it is your uninformed opinion. Unless you happen to know what the SS protocols are for responding to an attack

13. There were multiple warnings by several people in our country and abroad that there was an impending attack.

Another fact. Very good


14. Marvin Bush was in charge of security at the WTC right up until 911

Not a fact

15. The WTC 1 and 2 were shut down for long periods for the first time in history shortly before 911.

Not a fact.

16. There are hundreds of scholars, professionals, and high ranking government officials who have questioned 911 or point blank said it was a false flag.

Hundreds? Really. There are millions of people that think the Holocaust did not happen.

17. Larry Silverstein profited from the destruction

That may or may not be a fact. You have no clue of his financial position.

18. Larry Silverstein who owned the WTC 7 bought the entire complex shortly before 911 with terrorist coverage.

Larry is a smart man. After 1993, I'd have insurance coverage too.

19. There were “put” options much higher than usual placed on United and American Airline stocks.

That is not a fact. You have no clue if the put options were statistically significant.

20. The day before 911 Donald Rumsfeld told congress the pentagon lost 2.3 trillion dollars.

The day before Misfield told congress 2.3 trillion dollars were not accounted for, That is different than lost.

[mirandapriestly]

34. You didn't prove anything...

I like this one -
7. Operation North Woods depicts self induced terror attacks on the American people.

My three year old once drew a picture of the house being eaten by monsters. I don't believe my house will some day be eaten by monsters.


Those involved in Operation Northwoods were not 3 years old (and not living with you)...

[Bolo Boffin]

35. Wildbill didn't prove anything...

... and LARED proved that remarkably well.

[wildbilln864]

40. about your response...

my words in parenthesis.


1. Building #7 fell without ever being hit by a plane and with only fires on a couple floors.

It is not a fact that fire was only on a couple of floors.
(but it's a fact it wasn't hit by a plane so half of it is fact.)

2. All three buildings fell at almost freefall speed.

Depends on how you define "almost". The WTC 1&2 fell at about 50% slower than freefall.
(well if they didn't fall at near freefall speed please show us what speed they would have fallen if they were to fall at free fall speed. Thanks in advance. So this is unsettled.)

ON EDIT: On second thought I have to accept this as fact! You're just wrong! So that's 16!

3. No time in human history has a steel constructed building ever completely collapsed because of fire.

That might be a fact. If it is so what. This is also the first time in human history a jumbo jet crashed into a steel framed building designed like the WTC
(It is fact!)



4. Larry Silverstein said that they decided to “pull it” on PBS

Fact. yes, relationship to a CT, most dubious.
(well that's at least two facts now.)

5. Many eye witnesses heard several bombs going off in the towers

Not fact. Eyewitness hear explosions, not bombs. There are zero eyewitness to bombs.
(Sorry but fact! They heard bombs going off it says. You know what it means! You're nitpicking the words but the idea that witnesses heard explosions in the towers is fact. So that's three!)

6. The FBI does not list Bin Laden as wanted for 911

And this fact means what? ( It's a fact! The meaning is debatable. That's four.)

7. Operation North Woods depicts self induced terror attacks on the American people.

My three year old once drew a picture of the house being eaten by monsters. I don't believe my house will some day be eaten by monsters.
( Still fact! That's five!)

8. The White House has fought the investigation the entire time

Ok you win this one. Although characterizing it as "entire time" is not quite true
(Fact # 6)

9. The pentagon, although reamed with cameras has never released a video of a plane.

Reamed? Another fact that no video of a plane has been released! That's 7!)

10. There were mock terror drills going on at the same time about the same type of attack.

Were they terror drills or emergency response drills. Also for the ten thousandth time having drills are fairly routine activities. ( Doesn't matter how routine they are. Fact #8)



11. NORAD did not respond quickly.

True if you said quickly enough. But you instead characterize it a a deliberate slow response of which you have zero evidence for.
(Fact #9)

12. The secret service did not do their job by whisking the president away at the first sign of possible danger.

This is not a fact it is your uninformed opinion. Unless you happen to know what the SS protocols are for responding to an attack
(Well I'll concede I don't know but they should have been wary of a plane crashing on their heads in my view!)

13. There were multiple warnings by several people in our country and abroad that there was an impending attack.

Another fact. Very good
( well let's see that makes 10!)

14. Marvin Bush was in charge of security at the WTC right up until 911

Not a fact ( ok, not a fact!)

15. The WTC 1 and 2 were shut down for long periods for the first time in history shortly before 911.

Not a fact. I think it is! You have no evidence do you? Still open.

16. There are hundreds of scholars, professionals, and high ranking government officials who have questioned 911 or point blank said it was a false flag.

Hundreds? Really. There are millions of people that think the Holocaust did not happen. (Yes hundreds. Fact #11)

17. Larry Silverstein profited from the destruction

That may or may not be a fact. You have no clue of his financial position. (Sorry you're behind on this but it's fact #12!)

18. Larry Silverstein who owned the WTC 7 bought the entire complex shortly before 911 with terrorist coverage.

Larry is a smart man. After 1993, I'd have insurance coverage too. (Fact #13!)

19. There were “put” options much higher than usual placed on United and American Airline stocks.

That is not a fact. You have no clue if the put options were statistically significant. (Fact #14! You're wrong!)

20. The day before 911 Donald Rumsfeld told congress the pentagon lost 2.3 trillion dollars.

The day before Misfield told congress 2.3 trillion dollars were not accounted for, That is different than lost.
(Rediculous! It's still gone so it's lost! Fact# 15!)



So that's 15 of 20 and only one not a clear fact! But of course no reason to be suspicious. :eyes:

[LARED]

41. Willbill

That's a fascinating response. But most of your "facts" are quite pointless. Which "facts" have some value for your position? I can list facts all day long and get no closer to establishing a material argument.

The list are essentially "facts" word smithed to make them sound somehow damming. What you have provided is little better than asking if I stopped beating my wife. No one with a functional brain is convinced by your list, so why bother?

[wildbilln864]

42. Pointless to you, maybe. I'm not trying to convince anyone here.

Most have made their minds up already. I simply want an investigation of every facet of 911!
"The list are essentially "facts" word smithed to make them sound somehow damming."
Thanks for admitting they are facts.

[LARED]

43. Thanks for admitting they are facts.

Another important use of quotation marks is to indicate or call attention to ironic or apologetic words. Ironic quotes can also be called scare, sneer, shock, or distance quotes. Ironic quotes are sometimes gestured in oral speech using air quotes:

My brother claimed he was too “busy” to help me.
Ironic quotes should be used with care. Without the intonational cues of speech, they could obscure the writer’s intended meaning. They could also be confused easily with quotations.

In a similar sense, quotes are also used to indicate that the writer realizes that the word is not being used in its (currently) accepted sense.

http://www.answers.com/topic/quotation-mark

[wildbilln864]

44. yawn...

.

[wildbilln864]

51. Hmmm!

Some observations if I may.

1) Building #7 indeed was not hit by a plane! Fact!
2) Depends on how you define "almost".
within a couple seconds at most I would opine.
The WTC 1&2 fell at about 50% slower than freefall.
no, it did not! That's false. What about #7? 6.6 seconds versus 6.0? Close enough!
3) No time in human history has a steel constructed building ever completely collapsed because of fire.

That might be a fact. If it is so what. This is also the first time in human history a jumbo jet crashed into a steel framed building designed like the WTC
............admitted fact #3!

4) Larry Silverstein said that they decided to “pull it” on PBS

Fact. yes, relationship to a CT, most dubious.
..............yet another fact! #4

5) Many eye witnesses heard several bombs going off in the towers

Not fact. Eyewitness hear explosions, not bombs. There are zero eyewitness to bombs.
..........Then it should have stated heard explosions. Then it would be a fact.

6) The FBI does not list Bin Laden as wanted for 911

And this fact means what?
..... it means that he maybe didn't do it or there's some other reason they won't charge him. Like maybe there's no evidence!?

7) Operation North Woods depicts self induced terror attacks on the American people.

My three year old once drew a picture of the house being eaten by monsters. I don't believe my house will some day be eaten by monsters.
.......still a fact though! Fact #7!?

8) The White House has fought the investigation the entire time

Ok you win this one. Although characterizing it as "entire time" is not quite true
.........are we pretending this is the first fact you've admitted now?

9) The pentagon, although reamed with cameras has never released a video of a plane.

Reamed?
...........It implies there are lots of cameras at the pentagon! Fact #9!

10) There were mock terror drills going on at the same time about the same type of attack.

Were they terror drills or emergency response drills. Also for the ten thousandth time having drills are fairly routine activities.
..........yet this remains a fact! And a suspicious one to many.

11) NORAD did not respond quickly.

True if you said quickly enough. But you instead characterize it a a deliberate slow response of which you have zero evidence for.
...................................Hmmmm! Fact! Number 11 by the way.

12) The secret service did not do their job by whisking the president away at the first sign of possible danger.

This is not a fact it is your uninformed opinion. Unless you happen to know what the SS protocols are for responding to an attack
....I know they should have not know he wasn't in danger and should and would have acted accordingly if they thought he was!
#12!

13) There were multiple warnings by several people in our country and abroad that there was an impending attack.

Another fact. Very good
.................number 13! And thank you!

14) Marvin Bush was in charge of security at the WTC right up until 911

Not a fact
.......ok, you get this first one!

15) The WTC 1 and 2 were shut down for long periods for the first time in history shortly before 911.

Not a fact.
.........as far as I have read it's still a fact! #14!

16) There are hundreds of scholars, professionals, and high ranking government officials who have questioned 911 or point blank said it was a false flag.

Hundreds? Really. There are millions of people that think the Holocaust did not happen.
.......so what! Still fact #15!

17) Larry Silverstein profited from the destruction

That may or may not be a fact. You have no clue of his financial position.
.......oh it's a fact!
18) Larry Silverstein who owned the WTC 7 bought the entire complex shortly before 911 with terrorist coverage.

Larry is a smart man. After 1993, I'd have insurance coverage too.
..........................admitted fact #17!

19) There were “put” options much higher than usual placed on United and American Airline stocks.

That is not a fact. You have no clue if the put options were statistically significant.
...............that's just your opinion of what I have a clue on. It's still fact that those transactions were abnormal!

20) The day before 911 Donald Rumsfeld told congress the pentagon lost 2.3 trillion dollars.

The day before Misfield told congress 2.3 trillion dollars were not accounted for, That is different than lost.
................in your mind maybe! Fact #19! Nineteen out of twenty! Not bad!

[nebula]

36. I like this one

6. The FBI does not list Bin Laden as wanted for 9/11


On the FBI website, Osama bin Laden is a suspect on the 10 Most Wanted List, wanted in connection with a number of bombings of US Embassies in Africa that occurred in 1998. But it mentions NOTHING about him being wanted for 9/11. When asked by reporters why this was the case, the FBI allegedly replied that they had no evidence of to link bin Laden to 9/11(!).

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/fugitives/laden.htm

And yet, to this day, the Bush administration keeps insisting that bin Laden is, unquestionably, the mastermind behind 9/11. But how could they be so emphatic of his guilt, without even a shred of evidence of it? Without even so much as an investigation into this alleged guilt?

And then the White House releases a video of some Arab guy who looks nothing like bin Laden, as "proof" of a confession. At that point, I just about fell out of my chair laughing at this utter desperation to pin it on bin Laden...

...it can leave no further doubt that this official story, which just keeps getting more and more absurd by the day, is a 100% SHAM...

[wildbilln864]

45. So we still ....

don't know who the perpetrators are, yet we invaded Iraq and Afghanistan! Amazing to me.

[wildbilln864]

49. Just a bunch....

of unfortunate coincidences!

[wildbilln864]

52. bada...

bump!
:hi: