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Brainster Donating Member (81 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 06:38 PM
Original message
Rolling Stone Slams 9-11 Truth Movement
Be sure to read the part where Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld plan the crime:

BUSH: I'm a total idiot who can barely read, so I'll buy that. But I've got a question. Why do we need to crash planes into the Towers at all? Since everyone knows terrorists already tried to blow up that building complex from the ground up once, why don't we just blow it up like we plan to anyway, and blame the bombs on the terrorists?

RUMSFELD: Mr. President, you don't understand. It's much better to sneak into the buildings ourselves in the days before the attacks, plant the bombs and then make it look like it was exploding planes that brought the buildings down. That way, we involve more people in the plot, stand a much greater chance of being exposed and needlessly complicate everything!


Great job by Matt Taibbi!
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pauldp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. Same old jack-ass-idiot strawman - 911 Truth equals Loose Change.
This is really getting tiresome.
Let me know when he debunks "Everybody's
Gotta Learn Sometime", or "911 Press for Truth"

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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. (Ahem)
The people who believe Loose Change is a documentary aren't straw men -- they're real people -- so the silliness they promote is a fair target for ridicule. If that reflects on the credibility of the "911 truth movement," don't blame Rolling Stone.
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pauldp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. The fact that Taibbi can't find a better argument reflects badly on him.
<snip>
I challenge a 9/11 Truth leader like Loose Change writer Dylan Avery to come up with a detailed, complete summary of the alleged plot -- not the bits and pieces, but the whole story, put together......
<snip>

I guess dumb-shit Taibbi never heard of Mike Ruppert who wrote a hefty book laying out a case without
engaging in "alleged scientific impossibilities"

For the record I don't think Loose Change is all silliness either. I just don't think it is the strongest or most well researched case.
However exposing millions of people to the reality of Operation Northwoods for example is a very good thing.

"A straw man "argument" is a bogus, distorted or deliberately flawed interpretation of an otherwise valid position that has been altered so it can be more easily attacked, delegitimized and disassembled (hence the straw man metaphor) before the eyes and ears of an otherwise impartial audience unfamiliar with the facts and history of an issue or case."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

pretty fucking textbook if you ask me.
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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Baloney
Read that definition again, then tell me which part of Taibbi's description of "the" conspiracy theory is "bogus, distorted or deliberately flawed." It's a dead-on accurate description of what people will find if they search the net for "911 truth" and visit a dozen or so sites. I assume that what you're trying to suggest is that not everyone in "the movement" buys that bullshit, and you yourself think that at least some parts of Loose Change aren't silly. Well, good for you. Now, if only you could think it through a little farther, instead of a kneejerk reaction to Taibbi's ridicule, you might begin to appreciate what the problem is.
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pauldp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. Another way to set up a strawman.
"Present someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, refute that person's arguments, and pretend that every upholder of that position, and thus the position itself, has been defeated."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

This is exactly what is going on.
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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. No, that's NOT "exactly what is going on" in Taibbi's article
Edited on Fri Sep-29-06 02:14 PM by William Seger
He spells our pretty dang clearly what "position" he is ridiculing. If you're one of the ones who holds that "position" then he's ridiculing you. If you're not one who holds that "position" then he isn't talking about you, is he?


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pauldp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Oh really? Perhaps you could point out
where he differentiates between Loose Change and other positions in the 911 Truth movement?
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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. WHAT other positions?
That's a rhetorical question, point being: Why would you expect Taibbi -- or anyone else, for that matter -- to distinguish between Loose Change and "other positions in the 911 Truth movement" when the "movement" itself generally doesn't seem to think there's much reason to make that distinction? I've seen it on this very board, over and over: Oh, it's okay if Loose Change is bullshit, as long as it sucks a few more credulous and gullible people into the "movement."

Like it or not, the idiotic theories that Taibbi ridicules have come to define the "movement" -- and we're back where we started: That's not Taibbi's fault.

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Nozebro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Don't worry, no one here is going to ridicule YOU for being a part of

discussions about how the Gov't carried out a false flag operation on 9/11. You're in good company, and you might even learn something, or else provide for a good laugh at the expense of the "credulous and gullible people" that have bought into the Bush 9/11 fairy tale.

P.S. You didn't get the day off today?
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tenseconds Donating Member (237 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Ohhhhkay
Pissed off today Bill?
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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Not yet
... but it's still early.
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
2. The "They're too incompetent" angle
Let's see, they have stolen two elections successfully, right in front of the public, undermined and possibly destroyed the constitution, stolen billions (trillions?) of dollars from taxpayers and put them in the pockets of their corporate buddies (who are creating lucrative positions which await them when they leave office), lied about a war which has been responsible for over the deaths of 100,000 people and not been held accountable for it, the very day of 9-11 (Go massive sweep it all up!) they figure out how to use 9-11 to their advantage and have been able to accomplish evil goals beyond their wildest imaginations , have evaded media scrutiny and avoided being exposed by any major network or even NPR, and stacked the Supreme Court with the most heinous conservative judges who will do their bidding for years to come, but they're "too incompetent" to have done 9-11 - uh-huh. Matt Taibbi is a superficial jerk.
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RandiRhodesArchives Donating Member (116 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. precisely!
They act as if they are incompitant, when they really are not. (If they were indeed really incompitant, we would be in far less trouble than we are now!) Sadly, as much as this pains me to the core to say, they aren't stupid. What they do, no question, IS stupid. But they have to have some degree of (it's all I can do to hold back the :puke:!) intelligence to pull off all the shit that they have. Rolling Stone, aside from the occasional gem (ie. RFK Jr's pieces; their expose on depleted uranium.) is mostly pure bunk and is about as relevant as last month's issue of Maxim!
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tenseconds Donating Member (237 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. really riley
Really? I hadn't noticed any of that.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 09:15 PM
Response to Original message
5. Competence!
Who said the "Bush regime" "did" 9/11? This is an extreme simplification. It's like saying the Taliban did 9/11. In fact, according to the official story, it was a cell of terrorists harbored by the Taliban regime, who themselves were caught by surprise. This is not a bad analogy for inside job theory: 9/11 was a covert operation harbored by the Bush mob.

No one claims Bush did anything except follow his instructions to sit tight in that classroom until it was over. Ditto other known regime members. The question is whether their contractors are competent.

The "incompetence" of the Bush regime is the de rigeur excuse for not having to actually think with regard to 9/11. They're so stupid, so they couldn't have pulled it off, and we don't even have to examine the facts.

If the Bush people are so incompetent, how is it that so far they got everything they wanted, generally with the support of Democrats?

Of course, the 9/11 op left a host of loose ends, and the perps surely depended on the knowledge in advance that the unwitting regime members would never question a simple Bin Ladin theory, and that the utterly corrupt corporate media apparatus would serve as a reliable transmission belt and ignore any anomalies, and that (on the level of individual discourse) self-appointed obscurantists like Taibbi (sad to see it, a very fine writer otherwise) would do the job of muddying the waters with strawmen and innuendo, making factual discussion difficult.

Speaking of competence, and just to adopt your nonsensical logic, what do you think about the time Atta and Shehhi couldn't get their Cessna to start, at which point they abandoned it on the runway queue at Opa Locka Airport, walking away without even telling the airport authorities. Wow, if they can't even get a Cessna to start... how the hell did they steer two hits on the WTC in their first ever attempts to pilot a live Boeing?

---

Those who call the Bush mob "incompetent" make a fatal error. On some unconscious level, they seem to think that these criminals somehow share any of the goals of decent human beings, and have therefore "failed" to produce good results. But that, of course is the idea that motivates the Bush crime family: to produce results (evil or otherwise) that happen to enrich their own class.

The situation in Iraq for example is not the result of "incompetence." It is all according to plan, which was to destroy that nation.

Over and over we see the awesome competence of the Bush regime in accomplishing their radical plans - at almost every stage very much thanks to the enablers who run the Democratic Party, and who have smoothed the way for the Bush mob in each of their following accomplishments:

Stealing Election 2000.
Trillion dollar giveaway to the rich, intentionally plunging the country into deficit.
9/11. Exactly as desired.
Stealing a sum specified as "2.3 trillion dollars" from Pentagon assets.
Repealing the Bill of Rights in the USA PATRIOT Act.
Getting dozens of other countries to pass their own PATRIOT acts.
Invading Afghanistan. Exactly as planned, years in advance.
Funnelling trillions more legally into the Pentagon.
Establishing a Homeland Gestapo.
Instituting Rule by Fear, color-coded no less.
Railroading the idiot Congress into approving the war in Iraq.
Accepting the assassination of Wellstone by whatever lower-level operative delivered it.
Stealing Election 2002.
Establishing "Total Information Awareness" and getting away with it, even after departure of Poindexter.
Invading Iraq. Killing untold thousands.
Getting the Iraqis into a civil war, with the intent of making sure that country never recovers.
Covering up 9/11.
Using 9/11 as an election device and excuse for everything.
Stealing Election 2004.
Using Katrina as the opportunity to empty out New Orleans and test out long-standing "civil disturbance" doctrines.
Pushing through two right-wing Supreme Court appointments without a filibuster.
Rewiring Americans overnight to believe Iran is now the enemy.

Wow! What a list! A veritable juggernaut of competence.

The Bush mob (almost) always get what they want, and the Democratic "leadership" (almost) always helps them when it counts. Yes, they had to take a loss on the first attempt to steal the entire Social Security fund, but there are many opportunities yet to come.

Yes, it's all at a time of awesome crisis to US-based capitalism, so much of it looks jerry-rigged but so what? It's not like the Bush mob invented the crisis of capitalism. So far, they're getting away with a particular plan to thrive in that crisis, by plundering everything, whether nailed down or not.

Competent at what they do, which is what they've always done: pillage and plunder.

And those who call them "incompetent" sadly serve to excuse and enable their crimes.

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reprehensor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #5
17. Ditto that.
In spades.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. yeh.
Good old copy and paste...
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. Well said!
Kina funny.............you have a serious appearance of a systematic and organized crime organization to pull all of these things off. Yet we ought to believe that they were incapable offacilitating 9/11 in anyway. Riiight. I don't claim to know the inside picture...but I do know we didn't get an honest 9/11 Report.
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HughBeaumont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #5
22. People don't seem to get that Bewsh Administration != Bewsh himself.
Edited on Fri Sep-29-06 10:57 PM by HughBeaumont
To say that Lancelot Link is any kind of a "ringleader" or a "Big Boss" of all events in your post that they HAVE successfully pulled off without so much as a whimper from the American public amounts to people like Taibbi missing the point completely. Bewsh is merely a means to an end. He's Reagan's dumber counterpart without the convenient Alzheimer's. The criminal voevods loaded IN his administration that have the brains, the clout, the dollars and the muscle to pull this shit off are VERY competent, have done this many times before under previous corrupt administrations, and have learned their lessons from previous administrations on how to remain in power, with the dollars and the muscle, to keep doing this again and again.

Little Boots = Adam Sutler - goatee.
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number6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
7. Silly, thats why I don't read the RS anymore
Inside JOB only means Bush and Cheney did it
yea really :sarcasm:
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 05:53 AM
Response to Original message
12. "I don't have the space here to address every single reason"
But he did have the space - four pages. Instead of some careful analysis, he chose to produce snide commentary, Coulter-style. There's been far better analysis for the "pro-coincidence" side on this website.

Well, I have a little snide commentary of my own. How about some answers to the questions put forth by the 9/11 Truth Movement? Matt, if you can't figure out the answer yourself - how about asking Daddy, who got you the job after those brilliant journalistic stints in Outer Mongolia and Buffalo?


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Norrin Radd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 05:54 AM
Response to Original message
13. To quote Cobain:
Edited on Fri Sep-29-06 05:58 AM by Progs Rock
CORPORATE
MAGAZINES
STILL
SUCK

http: //i.realone.com/assets/rn/img/2/1/1/3/10303112-10303115-large.jpg
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RedSock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
20. what a piece of shit article this is
He wants "a detailed, complete summary" of the 9/11 plot and if we can't do that, then we're wacko.

That seems fair. ... Of course the Commission didn't do that either.

Is he really implying that "we" believe Rumsfeld, Cheney and Moron sat around and doodled the plot on a napkin? ... Is this the best he can do?

...

When he gets around to shredding Griffin's deconstruction of the military's response or any of the contradictions unearthed by Paul Thompson, wake me up.

Naturally, he avoids *that* stuff like the Regime avoids democracy.

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Chomp Donating Member (602 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
24. Hahahahaha
Edited on Sat Sep-30-06 09:53 PM by Chomp
All this bullshit about rhetorical devices again. Fucking nonsense.

The Bush-Rummy "chat" highlights one of the hardest things for the CTers to explain. But they don't even bother trying.

Plus ca change.

Explosives + Planes. Brilliant. Exactly how I'd do it if I was an Evil Overlord of the Secret Government.

Thank fuck I don't get upset reading this shit like I did a year or two ago.

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mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 04:57 AM
Response to Original message
25. Every time I see another article like this, I have to smile.
Does anybody really think these sorts of attacks are effective?

Who had the best means? Who had the best motive? Who had the best opportunity?

We all know we are being lied to daily. The only thing holding this lie together is its horrendous scope. As soon as people get past that (and more do every single day), it all becomes so obvious.

They said they needed it. They said they wanted it. And then they all twiddled their thumbs as it was happening. Then they told seven different stories about why they did nothing to respond. What more does anyone need to know about it?

They wrote a shitty screenplay with a ridiculously unbelievable plot, but within this screenplay is the germ of a far more compelling narrative that ties up thousands of loose ends. And they think they can make up for that with these sorts of lame attack articles that basically add up to nothing? From how many different directions cans 9/11 truth be attacked? Let us count the ways ...

Yes, 9/11 truth critics have done a masterful job at pretending this debate is about physical evidence only. Why? Because the narrative is what makes 9/11 truth so compelling -- not the evidence (with the exception of the WTC-7 collapse video).

They said they needed it. They said they wanted it. And then they all twiddled their thumbs as it was happening. Then they told seven different stories about why they did nothing to respond. What more does anyone need to know about it?
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