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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 03:42 PM
Original message
The 9/11 Conspiracy Nuts-
How They Let the Guilty Parties of 9/11 Slip Off the Hook
by Alexander Cockburn
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=72&ItemID=10931

You trip over one fundamental idiocy of the 9/11 conspiracy nuts -- -- the ones who say Bush and Cheney masterminded the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon -- in the first paragraph of the opening page of the book by one of their high priests, David Ray Griffin, The New Pearl Harbor. “In many respects,” Griffin writes, “the strongest evidence provided by critics of the official account involves the events of 9/11 itself… In light of standard procedures for dealing with hijacked airplanes… not one of these planes should have reached its target, let alone all three of them.”

The operative word here is “should”. One characteristic of the nuts is that they have a devout, albeit preposterous belief in American efficiency, thus many of them start with the racist premise that “Arabs in caves” weren’t capable of the mission. They believe that military systems work the way Pentagon press flacks and aerospace salesmen say they should work. They believe that at 8.14 am, when AA flight 11 switched off its radio and transponder, an FAA flight controller should have called the National Military Command center and NORAD. They believe, citing reverently (this is from high priest Griffin) “the US Air Force’s own website”, that an F-15 could have intercepted AA flight 11 “by 8.24, and certainly no later than 8.30”.

They appear to have read no military history, which is too bad because if they did they’d know that minutely planned operations – let alone responses to an unprecedented emergency -- screw up with monotonous regularity, by reason of stupidity, cowardice, venality, weather and all the other whims of providence.

<snip>
The WTC towers didn’t fall down because they were badly built as a consequence of corruption, incompetence, regulatory evasions by the Port Authority, and because they were struck by huge planes loaded with jet fuel. No, they fell because Dick Cheney’s agents methodically planted demolition charges in the preceding days. It was a conspiracy of thousands, all of whom –- party to mass murder –- have held their tongues ever since. The “conspiracy” is always open-ended as to the number of conspirators, widening steadily to include all the people involved in the execution and cover-up of the demolition of the Towers and the on slaujght on the Pentagon, from the teams acquiring the explosives and themissile, inserting the explosives in the relevant floors of three vast buildings, (moving day after day among the unsuspecting office workers), then on 9/11 activating the detonators.

Please read.
posted by someone who thinks Wellstone's plane went down due to bad weather (no less a tragedy), JFK was killed by Oswald, Armstrong really walked on the moon.

While i don't think Cheney bombed the wtc, i do think they supported (and continue to support) policies of terror in the Middle East, that is bound to come back to us. If we really want to prevent more terror, stop the injustice to the people of the Middle East, support a nuclear-free world (and in particular a nuclear-free Middle East). Listen to people like Dennis Kucinich, who recently toured the devastation wrought by US bombs in Lebanon, and then couragously said that we need to change our foreign policy.
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ryanus Donating Member (511 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. Sometimes I feel like a nut...
sometimes I don't. 9/11 was an inside, or outsourced, job.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
15. My best guess is that they knew exactly what was going on.
but I sincerely doubt they outsourced it and I know they're not smart enough to have pulled it off, themselves. The anthrax mailings, quickly traced back to the CIA and suspiciously targeted at people they disliked, was more their speed.

However, the CIA and drug running connections with the Florida "flight school," an in institution which was gone in 3 days, its records seized by Jebbie and lost forever, makes me very suspicious about the whole thing.

However, I'm still not convinced that a gang of neocons, theocons and crooks who have bungled everything before and since were responsible for such a masterful attack using only box cutters and brains. It just doesn't compute.
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. They only bungle the things they want to bungle. They get the money by the
Edited on Mon Sep-11-06 04:06 PM by Vincardog
truck load delivered to their crones. Why does it take thousands to plant explosives when you are in charge of security?

FOLLOW THE MONEY

LIHOP MIHOP or just GLAD AS HELL IT HAPPENED?
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AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #15
62. "I know they're not smart enough to have pulled it off themselves"
Ding ding ding!!

Therin lies the biggest argument for me. They could have prevented it certainly, but they didn't plan or execute it. As a native NY'er I still have questions about how the WTC came down and have looked at different "conspiracy" theories for an explanation - and none make sense to me.

Plus...there's no way it would have been kept secret considering the manpower needed for that kind of plot. It would have taken much more than about 25 people (about the number involved directly with the 9/11 hijackings) - and they wouldn't have been religious fanatics fueled by a spiritual need to destroy America.
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. How many people do you think kept The Manhattan Project secret?
Edited on Mon Sep-11-06 06:24 PM by Vincardog
Hint it was thousands, Planting the thermite to cut the WTC beams would not take anything like hundreds, maybe a dozen. It is not that hard to find those folks if you run the alCIAda
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #62
73. What leads you to belive the the accused hijackers were religious
fanatics?

There is a lot of evidence they enjoyed drinking, discos, strip clubs, cocaine, and other activities that would suggest that they weren't particularly religious, much less fanatics.

Iran Contra was kept secret for years, even though it required a lot of manpower to load, ship, off load tons of missles, and the secret Contra supply routes flown out of the US also required lots of man power.

The plot was only discovered when an American Contra supply plane was shot down by the Sandinistas and one guy survived who spilled the beans to save his neck.

Although this activity was very illegal, not many were punished, and then their convictions were overturned and many of the same folks are now in this administration.

So how did these people keep it secret for so long?

Also, if 19 hijackers with a few support people were able to pull off 9/11, why would it be impossible for 19 hijackers with a few support people and some inside help to pull this off?

Certainly the hijackers alone couldn't have scheduled 15 war games to co-incide with their plot that then resulted in a complete absence of air defense for an hour and a half.
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MervinFerd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #73
81. Inside help is possible, but.....
Edited on Tue Sep-12-06 03:26 PM by MervinFerd
your evidence is very weak.

The "war games blocked all air defense" claim is disputed factually. Logically, it's a weak argument at best. War games happen all the time.

And none of that makes controlled demolitions and fake planes even remotely plausible.
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michael_1166 Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #62
82. There are secret military bases no one is allowed to talk about,
there are secret CIA torture prisons unbeknownst to the general public... how many people do you think it needs to run a military base, or a prison? Your argument "there's no way..." seems not valid to me. Bigger projects have been kept secret, for a longer time.
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MervinFerd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #82
100. Like Area 51?
There are (probably) bases we don't know about. The question is: How many CIA/military men would participate in mass murder of Americans and keep it secret? How could "the Government" -know- that a few hundred CIA/military men would be able to keep silence about such a deed? How would you recruit such "people"?

"There's no way" that "the Government" gets people to do this.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
2. There's a "no planes" theory that's been going around for a few months.
Edited on Mon Sep-11-06 03:48 PM by LoZoccolo
Yes, there are people who believe that the planes we saw on TV were digital fakes. That would require even more people who saw it in person to keep silent for five years.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. i never heard that one before
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 03:54 PM
Original message
Here's some threads about it from the 9/11 forum.
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file83 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. A few months? That theory was thrown out years ago by the real 9/11 Truth
seekers. There are all sorts of stupid "theories" (really just imaginative ideas) out there, but that doesn't automatically mean the Official Conspiracy Theory (9/11 Commission Report) is the truth. Keep that in mind.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. The threads I give above are recent. n/t
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file83 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. Sure there are fools out there keeping those idiotic ideas alive...but
that doesn't have anything to do with the real 9/11 Truth Movement - a movement that wants a REAL independent investigation done.
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MervinFerd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #22
40. NoPlaners vs Thermitians vs Smithereeners......
The great 911 Schism of 2006...
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #40
46. If these people put all this energy toward something credible...
...and useful, we'd be much more successful.

But we're not.
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #40
68. Cage Death Match!
:popcorn:
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #40
75. Mervin, you appear to be a one trick pony. n/t
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MervinFerd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #75
79. No, but I find a good trick, I practice 'til I get it right. nt
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dogday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #16
70. There are truth seekers and there are nuts
there is a difference between the two... Keep that in mind....
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DaDeacon Donating Member (494 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. Well, yeah
If you may recall many "Eye Witness" on the ground at both NY & DC sites state they never really say a plane. they heard a boom of as many of the DC people say I saw something! Go try to find many of the old "day of" reports, fact is you know if you see a comercial airliner less than 1000 ft above you !
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #10
59. Ummm..There are thousands of people who saw the second plane.
The first came in very fast and unexpected and many thousands also saw that one. To believe that they weren't there you would have to believe in a conspiracy of tens of thousands of people. This is almost as ridiculous as Holocaust deniers.
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #59
89. your post is wrong!!
Edited on Tue Sep-12-06 08:38 PM by wildbilln864
Many thousands saw the first plane hit you say? Where do you get that idea? No they didn't!That destroys the whole post's credibility.
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FourScore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #2
28. Yeah. It's called "disinformation".
It's put out there to discredit a growing movement. It happens all the time. You plant an idea of something so absurd, so ridulous that everyone uses it to mock the whole movement.

No one I know seriously believes there were no planes.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
58. That's a funny one.
If it only wasn't about something so tragic.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #2
74. One bad theory does not a debunking make. It's easy to shoot down a straw
man.

Well done. That digital plane strawman is dead as a doornail.
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file83 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
4. What a condescending hit piece that was...
Edited on Mon Sep-11-06 03:50 PM by file83
...thanks for posting. :sarcasm:
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. You're Welcome!
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
5. Cockburn doesn't mention the wargames of 9-11 nor S.O.P.
Edited on Mon Sep-11-06 04:03 PM by EVDebs
'standard operating procedure' of the FAA, Air Force, and the WhiteHouse. And that company Ptech, hmmm ? Even neocons have questions about it. Read Rachel Ehrenfeld's

Dollars of Terror article
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=17730

""Ptech is used primarily to develop enterprise blueprints at the highest level of US government and corporate infrastructure. These blueprints hold every important functional, operational, and technical detail of the enterprise. A secondary use of this powerful tool is to build other smart tools in a short period of time. Ptech’s clients in 2001 included the Department of Justice, the Department of Energy, Customs, Air Force, the White House, the FAA, IBM, Sysco, Aetna, and Motorola, to name just a few. ""

Combined with 'wargames' being held conveniently on Sept. 11, 2001 (Vigilant Guardian, Vigilant Warrior, Northern Guardian, Northern Vigilance, NRO/CIA 'plane into building' exercise, and Tripod II), which Cockburn in the alternate media and the majors in the mainstream media ignore ineptly...we have logically unanswered QUESTIONS.

Cockburn doens't want to ask question. Some of us do. BTW, Cockburn didn't read Greg Palast's 'Khan Job' article lest he find out about the NSA's "policy shift" pre 9-11. Hmmmm.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Look, if you start looking into details, you'll become a conspiracy nut...
Is that what you want? Much more comfortable to just label them all as nuts and look the other way.
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file83 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. None of these self-proclaimed "debunkers" EVER mention the real meat
and potatos of the 9/11 Truth Movement - they can't and won't. "Can't" because the facts are NOT on their side - and "Won't" because they don't want to give the really disturbing FACTS any publicity.
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. Palast exposes NSA's 'policy shift', Palast under investigation...
"" A top-level CIA operative who spoke with us on condition of strictest anonymity said that, after Bush took office, "There was a major policy shift" at the National Security Agency. Investigators were ordered to "back off " from any inquiries into Saudi Arabian financing of terror networks, especially if they touched on Saudi royals and their retainers. That put the Bin Ladens, a family worth a reported $12 billion and a virtual arm of the Saudi royal household, off limits for investigation. Osama was the exception; he remained a wanted man, but agents could not look too closely at how he filled his piggy bank. The key rule of any investigation, "follow the money," was now violated, and investigations-at least before September 11-began to die.""

Khan Job
http://www.strike-the-root.com/4/palast/palast3.html
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angstlessk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
7. This admin IS responsible...same as putting a burr under a sadle then
claiming you had NO IDEA the horse would buck...yeach reicht! The VERY least they are guilty of is instigation and probably more...like ignoring all the warning signs..and turning a blind eye. That is called criminal neglect if done by ANYONE except this admin. :grr:
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Cockburn says that this administration and the administration before
it (and several on way back) is guilty of great crimes against the people of the Middle East. It did not start in Jan. 2001, however.
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #12
23. Nixon's '73 plans. Substitute "Iraq" for Saudi Arabia and voila !
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0102-01.htm

But you still needed the invisible hand leading to fruition...else the pretext wouldn't have been accomplished.
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razors edge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #23
39. how about Johnson covering up the
USS Liberty incident also.
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RangerSmith Donating Member (488 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
13. Time had a decent
article about all this and really why conspiracy theories are always big among some...

"A world in which tiny causes can have huge consequences feels scary and unreliable. Therefore a grand disaster like Sept. 11 needs a grand conspiracy behind it.

I can understand why many don't want to accept that there are some religious nuts out there that would like to kill us. It isn't the most pleasant thought of the day, but sooner or later, most will come to terms with it.
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file83 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. That article in Time was HORRIBLE. It was just another condescending
Edited on Mon Sep-11-06 04:05 PM by file83
piece that only goes into "details" about the really idiotic 9/11 CT's - they don't go into the details of the valid points in question, but rather, the article talks about general "psychological" aspects about people that research "Conspiracy Theories" in general...WTF?

Like the quote you used, "A world in which tiny causes can have huge consequences feels scary and unreliable. Therefore a grand disaster like Sept. 11 needs a grans conspiracy behind it." What the hell does that sweeping generalization have ANYTHING to do with the 9/11 Truth Movement?!??

Notice on the cover of that very same TIME they call the article as "9/11 Conspiracy Myths". Myths? Please. We have questions! Questions that have NEVER been addressed by the 9/11CR nor anyone else in government. How could those questions be a "myth"?

So, are we to call the Jersey Girls, the woman that were behind the movement to get the 9/11 Commission Report started flawed in some deep sociological way?

But from there is where it get's interesting: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1016720641536424083&q=press+for+truth

Watch it, and learn.
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RangerSmith Donating Member (488 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. Yeah, I'm familiar with all the
questions...

thats all conspriracy theories ever are... questions.

I've seen way too many serious questions answered to believe anything other than shit does indeed happen, but you know... whatever gets you through the night, good on ya.
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file83 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. Oh, contraire - what ever helps you sleep better, believe what your Gov't
Edited on Mon Sep-11-06 04:22 PM by file83
tells you, just like all the other good little citizens do.

The only questions you've seen "answered" are the questions they fed you.

The only psychological need I have is for the truth - I don't take the spoonfuls of bullshit they feed me and say "Yummy, I want more!"

I spit it out and look for the truth myself and with others that have their eyes open.

So close your eyes, stick your head in the sand, do what ever it is that you do that helps you sleep at night.

We'll keep a watch out for the wolves for you.
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RangerSmith Donating Member (488 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #31
64. look...
it's clear you are only interested in claims that further your beliefs. Anything that proves them false or anything that points to other possibilities are to you, all lies.

Who has their head in the sand?

You've thrown critical thinking out the window.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #27
48. Ok so now asking questions is the same thing as conspiracy theory?
When did that happen?
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RangerSmith Donating Member (488 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #48
53. no,
Edited on Mon Sep-11-06 05:26 PM by RangerSmith
but ignoring simple answers certainly puts one often in the tin foil camp.

Hell, you lose me at how intelligent this administration would have to be to pull it off. Without one leak... after all the people they've fucked.... nah...

Sometimes an apple really is an apple.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. Is there a simple answer to the war games?

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RangerSmith Donating Member (488 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. they certainly
aren't a one of a kind rarity. And nothing from those involved in the war games even play a roll in any of the claims. And, none of the rank and file involved can produce anything out of the ordinary.

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file83 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #57
65. You have no idea what you are talking about, and you don't even know it...
Edited on Mon Sep-11-06 06:49 PM by file83
- if you did, you'd realize what a fool you just made of yourself.

For someone accusing ME of lacking "critical thinking" skills, it seems you could use a little yourself. That, and some basic research skills (beyond reading Popular Mechanics' 9/11 CT debunking article).

You are a typical example of 9/11 CT bashers that claim to know so much about 9/11, but in fact, don't know the first thing about what really went on that day.

Do yourself and your country a favor - do some research. We can't force you to eat it, but don't deny it exists on the plate in front of you.

Just to get you started, 9/11 wargames: http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20050830185334880
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we can do it Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #27
88. So How About Showing Us Some Proof of the Official Conspiracy Theory?
Ya know the one with 19 tiny arabs from caves with plastic knives outsmarting the US Airforce and keeping it all a secret for years, gawd no -it isn't possible that it booshco had any involvement.
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Nozebro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #88
91. Can't prove what didn't happen. Will you settle for a PR report? NO?

Well, my friend, as you know, President Bush told the nation that the Gov't would provide proof that Osama got up off his sick bed and barked orders into a cell phone and 19 young Arabs genuflected and then proceeded to outwit the most powerful national security force in the known world. And to think, it all started right there in cave # (I promised not to say the number, but trust me) in far far away ARFgonnastan. Osama is just that smart. Remember, if he didn't come from a smart accomplishment-driven family, the Bushes would have never done business with any of Bin's lauden-kin.
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. And what, i suppose you think that they did not dissect alien bodies
at Roswell too! You must be in cahoots with them.
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RangerSmith Donating Member (488 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Hey!
Their cash is green! LOL
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. What do you think about the wargames of 9-11, tom ?
Edited on Mon Sep-11-06 04:11 PM by EVDebs
BTW, what do you think of Richard Clarke's hints at a conspiracy

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2109936
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file83 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #25
37. ..
:popcorn:
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #25
45. I know what I think about it.
I think he's clearly talking about the screenplay to The Path To 9/11.

"There is none so blind..." in 4...3...2...
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MervinFerd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #25
77. "Wargames" aren't evidence of anything. And....
nobody ever said CONSPIRACIES don't happen.

It's vast, physically impossible, world-girdling superhuman conspiracies that don't happen.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 02:24 AM
Original message
So let me get this straight...
A few hundred fanatics with no state of their own are trying to kill Americans, and had a big success once five years ago = too scary and terrible to let me sleep at night.

But

The ruling elites who own everything are corrupt and murderous and have no problem killing any number of others to enrich themselves and expand their power = a reassuring narrative that gets me happily snoozin'.

Goodnight.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #13
98. So let me get this straight...
A few hundred fanatics with no state of their own are trying to kill Americans, and had a big success once five years ago = too scary and terrible to let me sleep at night.

But

The ruling elites who own everything are corrupt and murderous and have no problem killing any number of others to enrich themselves and expand their power = a reassuring narrative that gets me happily snoozin'.

Goodnight.
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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
14. And what exactly is IPPS that supports Znet where this appears..
...IPPS: International Project for a Participatory Society follows the ideas of ParEcon

...ParEcon: Participatory Economics (Parecon for short) is a type of economy proposed as an alternative to contemporary capitalism. The underlying values are equity, solidarity, diversity, and participatory self management. The main institutions are workers and consumers councils utilizing self managed decision making, balanced job complexes, remuneration according to effort and sacrifice, and participatory planning. This page links to articles, interviews, talks, instructionals, Q/A sessions, and books about parecon and closely related matters.

...ParSite: International Project for a Participatory Society exists to propose, investigate, debate, explore, and advocate radical ideas for a desirable future. IPPS focuses on social, economic, cultural, and political life. It's membership is responsible for this site and for related projects which include struggling, writing, speaking, and acting on behalf of developing shared vision and strategy attaining a better world. The IPPS core values include solidarity, diversity, equity, self management, justice, and sustainability.

This sounds like some kind of Scientology/Landmark Forum cult group.

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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. oh god.... absolutely no connection with scientology.
but if someone disagrees with your ideas, they must be the enemy. No evidence beyond your pronouncements necessary, if we are asking you produce evidence, then we must be already be tom cruise-clones, ready to hop on the nearest couch.
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reprehensor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
26. Oh, Alex.
You so silly!

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acmejack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
29. I'm glad to learn none of our military systems work.
The man is so far off base on that I don't what to say. Having been involved with the military as a dependent, participant, engineer and veteran, I state flatly our systems do work as designed.
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MervinFerd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
30. On the Nose! And, by a Lefty of the most impeccable Leftness.
Think about this, IF you are a Conspiracy Nut.

Why have your obvious and elaborate "proofs" not been able to convince even a thorough far Left writer? No Rovian plant Cockburn.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
32. Cockburn doesn't believe in global warming & does believe in abiotic oil.
He's got some fucking nerve (or brain damage) calling other people nuts. The cliche about people who live in glass houses is so true in his case. Check out this link:

http://www.oilempire.us/counterpunch.html
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
33. Amazing. He claims Clinton was a murderer, but rants about 9-11 CTs.
Cockburn has pretty much swallowed the Right wingers' lines about Clinton and Gore, but when it comes to 9-11 "conspiracy theories" (most of which are not CTs at all, but glaring discrepancies in the evidence and the unanswered questions they spawned), he howls and waves the bloody shirt.

I guess once Hitchens left the building, the position was open for the taking.

--p!
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #33
42. Don't get him started on Stalin either ! nt
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #33
54. How does his positions on Clinton correspond to RW? The RW
says Clinton did not kill enough. But clinton's policies killed tens of thousands in Iraq, through sanctions (a continuation of Bush the First policies).

So how does this correspond to the Republican lines?
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 05:46 AM
Response to Reply #54
69. The "Clinton Death List"
A.k.a. the "Clinton Death Count" and "Arkancide".

To fully appreciate the viral nature of the list, you have do a Google search -- the damn thing was like kudzu on the early Internet, and it's still there. Here's lefty Liz Michael`s version of the list. But if you prefer the full-bodied aroma of a right-wing website, click here for a Conservative multimedia extravaganza.

Incidentally, most of the many versions of the list include the death of Socks, the First Feline -- seriously.

Cockburn has probably disavowed the list per se -- after all, it's a CT -- but, like Christopher Hitchens before him, he fully buys into the theory that Clinton has had many of his political "enemies" killed, especially when invoking Mena. Cockburn slyly endorses the list through learnèd quips, inside jokes, and knee-slappers, again, like Hitch and many other pundits of the hard Left.

And along the lines you touched on about Poppy Bush, Clinton gets way too much blame for the humanitarian disaster in Iraq. It might be true if he had been granted absolute imperial powers (like a certain Republican pResident I'm aware of), but the Congress, Bush Sr., the United Nations, the Supreme Court, and Saddam Hussein all had their hand in the matter -- and Clinton's detractors also fail to mention that he tried to ameliorate the sanctions several times, only to be rebuffed until fairly late in his presidency.

We could likewise make the case that there really is a George Bush Death List. It started five years ago yesterday, and got "supersized" in March 2003 and September 2005.

--p!
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
34. There is a huge difference...
Edited on Mon Sep-11-06 04:29 PM by sendero
... between believing that the whole thing was a staged event with a controlled demo and such - and believing that plently of folks in high places knew "something" was going down and went out of their way not to interfere.

But then lumping the latter belief into the same basket with the former is a tried and true method for discrediting any and all suspicions.

Bottom line - it doesn't matter to me if it was willful neglect or massive incompetence that caused those agencies to ignore a letter warning that people were trying to learn to fly planes but not land. Someone should have lost their job over that. Probably a lot of someones.

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bigbrother05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
35. Supports "Wanted Something to Happen"
Have always felt their gutting of previous treaties and agreements, putting Colin Powell on the road in backwater locations, putting Rummy in charge of ME diplomacy, ignoring Clinton admin warnings about terror/bin Laden, and generally swaggering around like some testosterone juiced banty rooster was their open invitation for someone, anyone to knock the chip off their shoulder.

Don't think they expected it to be so effective and were surprised, but the trifecta "joke" betrayed their real feelings. In W's world view, things are going quite well ("as long as I'm the dictator").
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RufusEarl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
36. Well these people aren't crazy, take a look at this link.
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TheFriedPiper Donating Member (610 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
38. The craziest theory I have heard is the one that claims
that 19 hijackers, working without US govt knowledge, managed to fly not one, but THREE planes past our defenses with incredible ease.

I don't know what happened exactly, but the official conspiracy theory put forth by the US govt is most likely not true.

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file83 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #38
66. Amen.
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we can do it Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #38
90. Notice How Hard They Are Working To Keep Adding To the Ridiculous Story
.....well now maybe they are starting to doubt what BS we are feeding them - lets add more to the pile and see if they swallow it...how about a movie, and remember, it was all Clinton's fault....heh heh
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mnhtnbb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
41. I just ordered three conspiracy books
Inside Job: Unmasking the 9/11 Conspiracies

The New Pearl Harbor: Disturbing Questions About the Bush Administration and 9/11

9/11 Revealed: The Unanswered Questions


I have never believed the Warren Commission. I have always believed
that Lee Harvey Oswald was set up.

Look at the manipulation of voting shenanigans from 2000 to 2004.
Tell me that the neocons aren't capable of conspiracy!
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. Cheney looks remarkably like Alan Dulles btw no CT just fact nt
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #41
52. These people are bad... therefore, if bad things happen...
they must be responsible. Not logical. Sorry. The world is more complicated than that.
And to imagine JFK was some saint, his foreign policy was based on militarism and expanding US dominion just as much as LBJ and Ike.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #41
60. Regardless, the Warren Commission's physics were dead on.
The shot must have come from the back. There's no other way the entry and exit wounds would look like that.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
44. What people don't seem to get, conspiracy or no conspiracy...
is that terrorism and 9/11 is the best thing that ever happened to the Bush administration, and it continues to be just that. Bush has virtually no incentive to protect our ports and our borders, and he has no incentive to capture bin Ladin or deal with the fundamental roots of terrorism. If anything, he wants to foster these roots and allow them to flourish so that we can continue waging war against nation-states along the lines of PNAC. This is the essence of the evil of this administration, but people don't seem to get it - they would rather argue about demolition charges being used to blow up buildings.
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #44
51. Yes, let's get at the underlying causes, and change US policy!
No need to imagine some invisible force dropping bombs on Fallujah, we know who did that, the perps admit to it. Who supplied Cluster bombs to Israel? No need to make anything up about that either, the administration brags about that (and nearly everone in congress supports it). So rather than playing with silly ideas about demolition charges, lets deal with the real issues. And these issues are part of US policy spanning decades, not invented by bush/cheney.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
47. You're not insinuating that anyone who thinks JFK was not killed by Oswald
And Wellstone's plane did not go down due to bad weather - also thinks the moon landing was faked, are you?

You're not suggesting that all CTs are equally nutty, are you?
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. That i am not. just say what i believe.
But do say that there are coincidences. People do die while flying. Sometimes the people involved are known only to their family and friends, other times they are well known musicians or politicians (who often fly, so the chance of dying in plane crash increases, and fly even more while campaigning).
Not all these crashes were works of some nefarious plans.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. war games
:P
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #47
61. Kennedy was killed by someone standing where Oswald was.
The physics support no other conclusion.
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Bushwick Bill Donating Member (605 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
56. Dear Mr. Cockburn,
- A woman whom every congressional person has commented on as believable and credible is being gagged and she says:

"If they were to do real investigations we would see several significant high level criminal prosecutions in this country. And that is something that they are not going to let out. And, believe me; they will do everything to cover this up."
http://baltimorechronicle.com/050704SibelEdmonds.shtml
"There is direct evidence involving no more than ten American names that I recognized," further revealing that "some are heads of government agencies or politicians--but I don't want to go any further than that," as we listened in stunned silence.
http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=2005042520431369
http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=2005062112075570

- I want to know why the head of Pakistani intelligence met with our congressional intelligence leaders on the morning of 9/11 when he directed a $100,000 wire transfer to Mohammed Atta months earlier.

- I want to know who scheduled and coordinated the wargames on the morning of 9/11. This is (a) an unbelievable coincidence; (b) we have a mole in our government who told the hijackers/patsies to act at this time; or (c) our government controlled and penetrated these guys and made sure this was happening at the same time.

- I want to hear the last few minutes of the Flight 93 tape that they won't release.

- I want Bush and Cheney to testify under oath, not holding each other's hands and testifying off the record. I would love some testimony from Cheney on his role as head of "all counter-terror and response planning" and if any of this was going down on the morning of the attacks. And I would love to have him respond to the infamous Mineta testimony about tracking the plane/object as it approached the Pentagon.
http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20050724164122860

- I want the release of 3 of the 4 WTC black boxes the firefighters found.

- Yeah, I know the Commission's explanation for the put options, but when financial guys say things like:
"This could very well be insider trading at the worst, most horrific, most evil use you've ever seen in your entire life... This would be one of the most extraordinary coincidences in the history of mankind if it was a coincidence," said Dylan Ratigan of Bloomberg Business News, interviewed on Good Morning Texas on Sept. 20.
"I saw put-call numbers higher than I've ever seen in 10 years of following the markets, particularly the options markets,' said John Kinnucan, principal of Broadband Research, as quoted in the San Francisco Chronicle," reported the Montreal Gazette on Sept. 19.
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/040804_condi_rice.html
...it is too hard to dismiss. OK, so there were no conceivable ties to Al Qaeda. Then, which intelligence guy or high-level Pakistani/Saudi that the Commission doesn't consider related to Al Qaeda made the trades?


- I would love to know why intercept procedures were transferred to Rumsfeld in summer 2001.

- I want to know why an intelligence operation (Able Danger) monitoring some of the hijackers wiped out the equivalent of a quarter of the records in the Library of Congress.

- I want to know why the 9/11 Commission even bothered to publish a report based on NORAD testimony (The FAA/NORAD timelines have changed several times by the way) when two of the commissioners now reveal in a book that the testimony was such baloney that they seriously considered referring NORAD to the Justice Department.

- I also would love to know why the government cannot prosecute anyone for sending out military weapons grade anthrax that could only have been produced in a few government labs (and don't forget that it was magically sent to media members and high-level Dems ).

Until these questions are answered, I am a nut.
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dogday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #56
67. I hear that.... What is the big deal in asking questions?
People here act like we are not suppose to discuss this on a discussion board... go figure :shrug:
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MervinFerd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #56
78. You need to read one of the MANY 911 PCT debunking sites. QUICK!
Edited on Tue Sep-12-06 11:17 AM by MervinFerd
Most of your facts are just bullshit.
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #78
93. No, Most of your posts are BS!
Why don't you show us the factual discrepencies? You can't!
As usual you show no facts only opinions. You use government subsidized propaganda!?
Why can't you debunk any of the post on your own?
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MervinFerd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 07:43 AM
Response to Original message
71. ARGUMENT AD HOMINEM: It's a logical fallacy.
I see lots of attacks on Mr. Cockburn. Not a single refutation of his points.

Yes, Cockburn is a nut at times. But he was on the Left before most of the ConspiraLoons were born. And what do his -other- opinions matter? He's Right-On, Far Out, correct, on the mark and giving 'em Hell in this piece.

Deal with it.
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Nozebro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
72. Alex Cockburn: Sees evil everywhere except at the CIA & Scientology

Whenever Cockburn runs one of those periodic articles designed to keep the FORD Foundation/Intel funds flowing into his coffers, it almost makes me sympathetic to the OCT'ers here that ordinarily compare Cockburn to the Communist-Under-Every-Bed notion.

All of his CIA-biased articles (whether about the conspiracy to assassinate JFK, the Church of Scientology (U.S. Falun Gong branch), or the Official 9/11 Fairy Tale, his rant-like meanderings are truly "all fluff, no stuff".

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MervinFerd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #72
76. ARGUMENT AD HOMINEM: It's a logical fallacy.
Cockburn raised real issues.

Address them or be quiet!
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Nozebro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #76
80. He raised NO real issues. He did what OCT'ers here do all the time.

He just ranted like OCT'ers do here all the time. All fluff, no stuff.
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MervinFerd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #80
85. He raised the ESSENTIAL issues.
Towers can fall for many reasons, including faulty construction.

Military operations never go according to military precision.

Conspiracy Theorists are obnoxious.
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Nozebro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #85
92. All that he raised fell faster than the exploded WTC buildings. KaBOOM.

He ranted, he raved, he jumped, jived, and comported himself like I don't know what all - and just as soon as he did, KaBOOM! His "arguments" were so weak the fire from my cigar lighter caused them to give way and collapse right there, into their own stinky hoofprints.

On the nother hand, did anybody see you reading "Counterpunch"? C'mon. Well, did they? You can tell me the truth can't you? I won't tell them you admitted to what must be a capital offense in rightwingland.
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MervinFerd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #92
95. If the arguments are weak, ADDRESS THEM. And.....
it's not polite to accuse people of being right-wingers around here. But if you want some right-winginess, track down the sources of some of the Conspiracist Theories, such as the "site that cannot be named."

I've read Counterpunch. Left The Nation because of Cockburn and Christopher Hitchens (after Hitchens went--wherever he went).
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Nozebro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #95
97. No case to answer. It was all typical Cockburn rantings.

If you feel he made an argument and you agree with him, that's okay. I'm sure your "friends" will understand, given the circumstances.

If you feel that YOU can make a case for the Official Conspiracy Version of 9/11, I'm sure you would get a lot of response and plenty to chew on. Will you accept the challenge? I assume that you are a progressive Democrat, not a right-winger, but if you just happen to know any right-wingers who have the courage of their convictions, ask THEM to make a fallacy-free, LOGICAL argument for the Bush 9/11 CT.

Thank you and no, I won't hold my breath.
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MervinFerd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-15-06 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #97
104. It's not -Bush's- version. It's a shared reality constructed from the
shared knowledge of -thousands- of people.

The 9/11 Commission included prominent Democrats, you will recall. The Intelligence Services of the entire Planet Earth have investigated this event. Have ALL these organizatons been unable to find evidence of this vast conspiracy, but a bunch of Conspiracy Hobbyists with cable modems have absolute proof?

Our own intelligence services have managed to reveal the -real- conspiracy to construct a case for the invasion of Iraq. Did the same people say nothing about the murder of thousands of Americans?

If you think the Earth is flat, or Neil Armstrong never walked on the Moon, it's YOUR job to provide fallacy-free irrefutable LOGICAL arguments. Not mine.

Likewise, if you think the Pentagon was hit by a missile from a Flying Saucer it's not MY job to refute that ridiculous assertion.

And, if the 9/11 Truthers have proof of this virtually all-powerful conspiracy,
HOW THE HELL ARE THEY STILL ALIVE?
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mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
83. The Left Gatekeepers.
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MervinFerd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #83
84. Fascinating. The Secret Government?
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mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #84
86. Money talks.
I guess that's a "conspiracy theory" to you as well. Right?
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smiley Donating Member (602 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #84
87. exactly...
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
94. Great article...
thanks for posting.

Sid
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Montauk6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
96. Well he throws in a lot of straw man arguments (JFK, the MOONWALK???)
Plus, I found it hilariously ironic that someone accused COCKBURN of being a Democratic party shill. This is a guy who on Tony Trupiano's show (I don't have the date but maybe Mr. Burch might happen to recall when he was a guest) basically stated that John Kerry not only would've made a worse President that Bush but would probably have escalated the current fiasco in Iraq, not to mention Counterpunch slamming Kerry/Edwards all the way during the '04 campaign. Now, mind you, whether you agree or disagree with the sentiments is not the point; the point is the irony of his being pegged a tool for the Dems.

Also, I found it fascinating his opening argument on how the "nuts" completely overlook the history of bumbling within the American military structure (I suppose Mr. Cockburn would equally scoff at the very concept of a "military/industrial complex"). That's fine, point well taken. It actually plays in the hands of those on the right who believe that government's perpetual idiocy begs the idea of "least is best," but anyway.

I would wonder, though, does Mr. Cockburn subscribe to the notion that whatever incompetence plagues the military somehow bypasses the airline industry. See, THIS is the thing that's always bothered me about 9/11: how could these 4 groups have so brilliantly coordinated/choreographed the attack? And, NO IT'S NOT ABOUT them being savage Arabs in caves(that maybe on Cockburn's mind, who knows). It's about an industry that WE ALL KNOW ON A DAILY BASIS demonstrates incompetence that leads to unpredictability. Before all this terror, how many of you got to the airport a couple of hours beforehand? It wasn't because of security concerns, IT WAS BECAUSE YOU HAD TO MAKE SURE THEY DIDN'T OVERBOOK YOUR ASS OFF YOUR PAID-FOR FLIGHT!!! Overbookings, delays, mechanical screwups, weather issues; that's life in the friendly skies. So, again, how can you coordinate with such a risk of things not going as planned? AND pull it off so successfully? AND know that they wouldn't have been spotted by security or whatever?

It's THOSE little things that make me skeptical. And, btw, not that it MATTERS but I do believe Armstrong walked on the moon and LHO killed JFK. Where's it written, anyway, that conspiracy theories are all or nothing? That's just silly, IMHO.
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MervinFerd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #96
99. Airline incompetence....
They're aggravating, but not -that- bad.

You book a First Class ticket, there's a real good chance you will get a seat and that the plane will take off near the scheduled time. As to check-in delays, just get there early.

And maybe you need to get lucky.

It's not much of an argument.


Honestly, the scary thing is how -easy- this was. It wouldn't be that easy the second time, but there must be other nasty things I haven't thought of.

Don't spend a lot of time contemplating mass murder and suicide. Depressing.
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Montauk6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #99
101. Not for nothing, Mervin, but if a plane gets delayed on the runway
ALL the passengers at that point are Coach.
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MervinFerd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-15-06 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #101
103. But, you're on the plane.
And can hijack it when it gets in the air.

This argument is just a terribly thin point on which to balance such a huge edifice of conjecture.
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savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-15-06 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
102. It's all going to come out one day
and then you will find out exactly what went on, until then.....
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