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Ezlivin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 10:00 AM
Original message
Anthrax Attack - Are you MIHOP, LIHOP or other?
I wonder if those who so ardently argue that 9/11 couldn't possibly be a government conspiracy feel the same way about the anthrax attacks.
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FoxOnTheRun Donating Member (829 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
1. Well I think its just a coincidence
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/12/17/wthrax17.xml&sSheet=/portal/2001/12/17/por_right.html


THE FBI is concentrating its hunt for the source of the anthrax used to terrorise America on laboratories used by the CIA and British government scientists.

Only five laboratories, including the defence science and technology laboratories at Porton Down, Salisbury, have been found to have spores of anthrax identical to the bacteria sent through the post to two Democratic senators and news organisations in New York and Florida.
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Ezlivin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. A "coincidence"?
How is an anthrax attack a coincidence?

What do you mean by that?

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FoxOnTheRun Donating Member (829 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. ....
:sarcasm:


I think you have to make fun of it, otherwise it's just ....

I don't know if it was the CIA or MI6.
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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
4. The attacks which followed on the heels of 9/11 with strains
...of anthrax that came from U.S. military labs? Those anthrax attacks? Damn straight it has been a conspiracy and almost certainly related to the events of 9/11.
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Slaughtermeyer Donating Member (104 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Top officials started taking Cipro
Top Bush administration officials started taking the anti-anthrax antibiotic Cipro several days before the first anthrax attack was reported.
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Ezlivin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. They couldn't "imagine" certain things, yet were prepared for anthrax?
It's amazing how adroit this administration has been at lying.

They couldn't imagine anyone flying an airliner into the WTC six months after Fox ran a movie showing just that. Don't tell me that a vice-president who refuses to watch anything but Fox missed that.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Very small point,
Fox News Channel is not the same as Fox TV. I doubt Cheney was always watching Fox's Sunday night line-up beginning with the Simpson's, which is where and when that Pilot episode of The Lone Gunmen aired.
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IChing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-08-06 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
29. What about the anti-anthrax drug as a small point?
No comment on his point?
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
7. I think Saddam did it.
yeah. And other evil "Islamoneoobjectivists" who hate Democratic politicians and the media for our freedoms.

yeah. Saddam and the "Islamosecularhumanists."












MIHOP--the power behind the coup of 2000 cemented their position and intimidated all potential opposition.
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Yes it was Saddam...
Dumsfeld slipped him the key to the army's facility in Ft. Deitrick where it came from while shaking Saddam's hand in that famous photo.
Lol!
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sarcasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #8
45. We have found out from the CIA that Iran sent the Anthrax.
Let the never ending War continue.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-07-06 12:02 AM
Response to Original message
10. I've forgotten many of the details, but
I'm convinced they essentially framed their main suspect. At the time, I was thinking they pinned him in order to act like they had shit under control when they really didn't.
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IChing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-07-06 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. What shit under control are you talking about?
Just wondering where you stand on the ops question?
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IChing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-08-06 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Well, we are waiting
some of us are curious
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-08-06 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. It's hard to believe it's not obvious.
By "shit under control", I meant the vomitus bush immediately began spewing post 9/11 about how he was going to competently protect and defend our country and its citizens from evildoers - that we should put our faith in him.
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IChing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-08-06 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. so which one?
MIHOP, LIHOP or other
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-08-06 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Unsure.
I haven't looked at the issue enough since it was going on to reach any conclusions.
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IChing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-08-06 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. Thanks so why not look into it or is it not that important for the govt?
The deaths of innocent people, the attack on democratic leaders resulting in the signing of the patriot act.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-08-06 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. One can't look into everything, correct? nt
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vincent_vega_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-08-06 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. Neither
The Anthrax attacks was purpetrated by a few or even single individual(s) and had nothing to 9/11/01.
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IChing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-08-06 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Ok, I'm listening, your proof please? n/t
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vincent_vega_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-08-06 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. opinion (n/t)
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mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-09-06 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #23
34. OK. So who did it and why?
How did your lone mailer get ahold of US military strain of anthrax than he/she mailed?
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vincent_vega_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-09-06 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. Dunno
Otherwise he would be in custody now.

Just because it is "weapons grade" does not mean it originates from the US Military.
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-07-06 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
11. Easy enough!
MIHOP of course!
www.newamericancentury.org
http://www.tvnewslies.org/html/9_11_-_all_the_proof_you_need.html
www.madcowprod.com
and read Paul Thompson's timeline!
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-08-06 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
17. FBI approved destruction of evidence on Oct. 10 as investigation underway
First, let's start with a smoking gun. I'll post a timeline of essential points below.

A story that appeared complete only in the print edition of NY Times revealed that the FBI "approved" (demanded?) the destruction of the original samples of of the Ames strain of anthrax, although an investigation into the Bob Stevens case was underway and although the anthrax was already known to have originated with this strain.

The Ames strain original vials were destroyed by Dr. James Roth of the College of Veterinary Sciences at Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa, on Oct. 10-11, 2001, several days after news of the first anthrax case was reported. The official rendering is that the college wished to destroy the samples for security reasons, aked for and received permission to do so from the FBI and the CDC. Destruction of these vials may have made it impossible to determine when exactly the anthrax strain used in the attacks was first isolated historically, and therefore how widespread it was at facilities around the world. However, in the story Dr. Roth says he thinks "they" (CDC and FBI) had the samples anyway.

New York Times, Friday November 9, 2001

LESS COMPLETE electronic versions are archived at
http://www.wanttoknow.info/011109nytimes
http://nucnews.net/nucnews/2001nn/0111nn/011109nn.htm

Print edition - relevant passages transcribed

IN ANTHRAX CASE, SOME SEE MISSTEPS AND LOST CHANCES
UNSTEADY F.B.I. INQUIRY
Destroying Bacteria Samples is Just One Stumble Cited by Variety of Experts

This article was reported and written by William J. Broad, David Johnston, Judith Miller and Paul Zielbauer.

The Federal Bureau of Investigation's inquiry into the anthrax attacks has stumbled in several key areas and may have missed opportunities to gather valuable evidence as criminal investigators have been unable to fully and quickly grasp the scientific complexities of the case.



<...>

Several experts, including some on whom the F.B.I. has relied, said the anthrax investigation has taken some wrong turns.

Several weeks ago, the F.B.I. said it had no objection to the destruction of a collection of anthrax samples at Iowa State University, but some scientists involved in the investigation now say that collection may have contained genetic clues valuable to the criminal inquiry.

Criminal investigators have not visited many of the companies, laboratories and academic institutions with the equipment of or capability to make the kind of highly potent anthrax sent in a letter to Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle...

<...>

Last month, after consulting with the F.B.I., Iowa State University in Ames destroyed anthrax spores collected over more than seven decades and kept in more than 100 vials. A variant of the so-called Ames strain had been implicated in the death of a Florida man from inhalation anthrax, and the university was nervous about security.

Now a dispute has arisen, with scientists in and out of government saying the rush to destroy the spores may have eliminated crucial evidence about the anthrax in the letters sent to Congress and the media.

The Ames strain was originally isolated at Iowa State, but just when is in dispute. If they could have solved the mystery of its origins - by comparing the signatures of the anthrax DNA in the letters to those of the anthrax DNA in the archive - scientists might have been able to track the germ's distribution over the zears. And that, in turn, might have given investigators important clues about the killer's identity.

Martin E. Hugh-Jones, an anthrax expert at Louisiana State University who is aiding the fedeal investigation, said the mystery is likely to persist. "If those cultures were still alive," he said, they could have helped in "clearing up the muddy history."

Experts say it is as if federal investigators now have a bullet, but no idea if the bullet factory opened 20, 50 or 70 years ago, and little insight into where its lethal goods were shipped.

Ronald M. Atlas, president-elect of the American Society of Microbiology, the world's largest group of germ professions, based in Washington, said the legal implications could be large. "Potentially," he said, "it loses evidence that would have been useful" in the criminal investigation.

"We didn't recommend one way or another whether they should destroy it," said Larry Holmquist, a spokesman for the F.B.I. in Omaha, which runs the bureau's Iowa operations. "But we did say it had no evidentiary basis. There was a decision reached that there was no significance to them keeping it for evidentiary reasons."...

<...>



Intertwined with the mystery of the Ames strain's origin is the question of whether it was used in America's abandoned effort to develop anthrax as a weapon, which took place between 1943 and 1969, when President Nixon renounced germ warfare.



The scientific literature is contradictory. A 1986 paper by Army researchers said the strain did not arise until 1980. But a paper in 2000 by Dr. Hugh-Jones, Paul J. Jackson of the Los Alamos National Laboratory, Paul Keim of Northern Arizona University and five other anthrax researhcers asserted that the Ames strain played a central role in the American biological warfare program.

If true, that could raise the question of whether the perpetrators of the current crimes learned of the American recipe or even found and exploited lost anthrax stockpiles.

Caree Vander Linden, spokeswoman for the Army's germ defense lab at Fort Detrick, Md., said officials there had not investigated if the Ames strain was used in the old weapons program.

The Iowa State archive was destroyed on Oct. 10 and 11, after relatively brief deliberations with the F.B.I., said Julie Johnson, an official in environmental and safety at Iowa State. The F.B.I., she said, "told us we didn't need to keep it for evidence."

It is unclear if the F.B.I. understood that Iowa State destroyed many strains of anthrax, or that the origins of the Ames strain were cloudy. Mr. Holmquist of the F.B.I. in Omaha said the rationale for the destruction had been "sent out to numerous places" around the globe in the past "40 or 50 years."

Tom Ridge, the White House director of homeland security, confirmed publicly that the tainted letters contained the Ames strain on Oct. 25, two weeks after the destruction.

Iowa State says it won destruction approval not only from the F.B.I. but from the fedeal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which are involved in the federal investigation.

James A. Roth, a microbiologist at the College of Veterinary Medicine who presided over the destruction, said the university's records on its anthrax strains were extremely limited and that the labeling on the vials was often cryptic, leaving officials unsure exactly how many strains the university had.

Even so, "we think they had all the strains already," he said of the F.B.I. and the C.D.C.

The oldest strain in the collection dated to 1928. If the Ames strain was similarly old, experts said, it is conceivable that the potent germs were distributed far more widely than conventional wisdom holds.

Since the destruction, Dr. Roth said, the university has heard nothing from the F.B.I. about anthrax. As for whether the destroyed strains might have clarified the origins of Ames, he said, "now we'll never know."



CONCLUSION

Note that destroying these samples after a case was already underway is even more suspicious than doing so beforehand. From what's being said (we THINK they had all the strains already) it seems possible that the FBI or CDC first took samples, then ordered or intimidated the College into destroying their own originals. It makes no sense whatsoever that they wouldn't secure the samples instead of allowing their destruction, except in the context of a cover-up.


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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-08-06 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
20. A is for Anthrax...
NOTES TO AN ARTICLE I NEVER SEEM TO WRITE...

CONSIDER IT A DATA DUMP

Anthrax...

an example of "elusive information"

IN THE YEARS BEFORE...

• Operation Clear Vision: reconstructing Russian anthrax bombs (1997-2000)
- State Department objected: violation of biowarfare conventions
State Dept. official quoted as saying: "A bomb is a bomb is a bomb."
- Pentagon, CIA insisted, went ahead with research.
- Suspended by White House in 2000.

• Revival of programs under Bush administration.
- Operation Jefferson (West Jefferson, Ohio: Battelle Memorial Institute)
- Supermarket terrorism ($1 million budget)
- Sept. 4th: Judith Miller allowed to report from facility by Pentagon after French objection.

Next to Old Rec Hall, a 'Germ-Making Plant'
New York Times
September 4, 2001
By JUDITH MILLER
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/04/international/04BIOW.html

CAMP 12, NEVADA TEST SITE, Nevada - In a nondescript mustard-colored building that was once a military recreation hall and barbershop, the Pentagon has built a germ factory that could make enough lethal microbes to wipe out entire cities.

Adjacent to the pool tables, the shuffleboard and the bar stands a gleaming stainless steel cylinder, the 50-liter (53- quart) fermenter in which germs can be cultivated.

The apparatus, which includes a latticework of pipes and other equipment, was made entirely with commercially available components bought from hardware stores and other suppliers for about $1 million - a pittance for a weapon that could deliver death on such a large scale.

The factory was built by the Defense Threat Reduction Agency, an arm of the Pentagon that works to contain the spread of nuclear, biological and chemical weapons. Officials said the project was intended to assess how hard it would be for a terrorist or rogue nation to assemble a germ factory.

-------------

9/11/01

- Sept. 11th: White House staff (Cheney people) put on Cipro.

- Lexis reveals several dozen stories with warnings about potential for anthrax attacks in the weeks between Sept. 11 and beginning of attacks (many cited by Ed Lake at his "anthrax investigation" site). Rumsfeld, Hyde, Bush all deliver scare stories Oct. 1.

- SEPT. 24: Agriculture Dept. orders no crop duster flights (supposed Atta & anthrax connection)

-------------

SEPT. 16: PATRIOT Act proposed.

SEPT. 18: Postmark of Trenton, NJ anthrax mailings to NY Post and NBC (also CBS? ABC?)

SEPT. 22: First symptoms in NY area (undiagnosed).

OCT. 2: USA PATRIOT Act introduced in Congress.

OCT. 3: BOB STEVENS DIAGNOSED WITH INHALATION ANTHRAX. No letter ever found.

OCT. 4: Tommy Thompson, from the White House:
"I want everybody to understand that sporadic cases of anthrax do occur in the United States.... t this point in time, it's an isolated case, and there is no other indication anybody else has got anthrax."

Patrick Leahy expresses opposition to USA PATRIOT Act.

OCT. 5: Bob Stevens dies.

OCT. 9: Postmark of Trenton, NJ mailings to Daschle & Leahy (Kennedy? Levin?).
USA PATRIOT Act blocked in committee by Feingold.

---

The Congress that rushed through the USA PATRIOT Act nearly unread was the same Congress that was packing and rushing out of Washington because the leadership of the opposition Democrats had been subjected to an anthrax attack.

I consider this fact inseparable from any discussion of how the USA PATRIOT Act was passed. The chairman of the Judiciary Committee, Patrick Leahy, received an anthrax letter within days of questioning the original draft of the USA PATRIOT Act. The Senate majority leader, Tom Daschle, also received a letter at the same time. Soon after, both reversed themselves and dropped their objections to the legislation, which radically curtails the civil liberties guaranteed in the U.S. Bill of Rights.

By way of anthrax, Congress was terrorized and broken.

The anthrax attacks of October 2001 should have put an end to doubts about the "War on Terror" and the likelihood that elements of the U.S. government are willing to stage inside-job terror attacks on American soil. Instead the attacks have been forgotten, although at the time they were trumped up into something even bigger than 9/11.

Unlike the case of 9/11, the facts about the anthrax attacks are simple, clear and close to conclusive - certainly meeting the standard of "probable cause" to suspect a government covert operation.

-The Bush government revived an anthrax program early in 2001 on orders from Cheney and had developed a new milling process just before Sept. 11. Incredibly, this was called "Project Jefferson" (!).

- A week before Sept. 11, the New York Times reported that the Pentagon was experimenting in the "defensive" development of anthrax milling methods. Government scientists were assigned to put together home-made laboratories, using only materials available commercially, on the sparse budget of a mere one million of your taxpayer dollars. When this was revealed, the Pentagon said they weren't actually taking the final step, of milling live spores (although I wonder why, once ready, they would not want to see how well their lab works). The idea of the exercise, supposedly, was to see what terrorists might whip together from store-bought items. The French got wind of this program and complained to a United Nations committee, since the biowarfare convention outlaws all research, including "defensive research." To allay these concerns, the Pentagon invited an NY Times reporter, our old friend Judy Miller, to the Texas base where the experiments were held.*
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/04/international/04GERM.html?searchpv=nytToda
y&pagewanted=all
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/04/international/04BIOW.html

-On Sept. 11th the White House immediately put some of its staff, reportedly including Cheney himself, on Cipro. How did they know to pick this antibiotic, out of the many available? How could they guess that anthrax (or another pathogen against which Cipro can protect) was coming? This is the subject of a discovery suit by Judicial Watch: how did they know?**

-A wave of stories immediately after Sept. 11th announced that anthrax was the likeliest next attack. We were even threatened with a specific sequence of future attacks: anthrax, smallpox, plague. (They've been drumming up the smallpox scare ever since the anthrax attacks stopped.) Of all the hundreds of biowar germs and literally thousands of types of terror attacks, why was this idea circulated so prominently? Who was behind spreading these stories? Why so specific?

-Suspect Hatfill, while working biowarfare research at SAIC/Batelle Memorial in 1999, commissioned his colleague in science, William Capers Patrick, the renowned dean of American biowarfare research, to write a report on modalities that terrorists might employ in sending anthrax through the mail.

-The report from that study specified an ideal spore concentration and weight of anthrax sample per envelope. These were the amounts that were then reportedly used in the attacks on Daschle and Leahy. In other words, the anthrax attackers may have had access to this secret report.

----

Barbara Hatch Rosenberg:
"A classified report dated February, 1999 discusses responses to an anthrax attack through the mail. The report, precipitated by a series of false anthrax mailings, was written by William Patrick, inventor of the US weaponization process, under a CIA contract to SAIC. The report describes what the US military could do and what a terrorist might be able to achieve. According to the NY Times (12 Dec. 01) the report predicted about 2.5g of anthrax per envelope (the Daschle letter contained 2g) and assumed a poorer quality of anthrax than that found in the Daschle letter. If the perpetrator had access to the materials and information necessary for the attack, he must have had security clearance or other means for accessing classified information, and may therefore have seen the report and used it as a model for the attack."

www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A28334-2002Oct27?language=printer

----

-The anthrax went first to the headquarters of the country's biggest tabloid owner (National Enquirer and Florida Sun-Sentinel). The Enquirer had printed a series of anti-Bush "conspiracy" stories, including one claiming that McVeigh was still breathing after his execution. The Enquirer also published embarrassing pictures of the Bush twins drunk, which had gotten much play on Drudge and similar outlets. Was this an object lesson to the media? (Note: never established how it got to Bob Stevens; no envelope located; theory that it may have been spread from one floor to another by a vacuum cleaner .. or was he directly hit, via keyboard?)

-The wife of the paper's editor, Stevens's boss, had rented an apartment to Mohamed Atta and Marwan Al-Shehhi. Was the paper going to do a story about this that would not have fit the official 9/11 line?

--At this point, the FBI on a request from Iowa State University allowed the destruction of a stockpile of original Ames strain samples on Oct. 13, days after the Bob Stevens case became known. Why?! This was a precaution?!

-The next group of attacks hit the New York media. The letters arrived just as the Afghanistan campaign began and caused maximum coverage of nothing but anthrax. For a vital week or two, both the Afghanistan campaign and the 9/11 investigation became secondary concerns to the media.

-At that point the FBI immediately called off one-half of the thousands of agents who were working on 9/11 and put them to work on anthrax.

-The third wave of attacks, the one that exactly fit the specifications of the secret paper commissioned by Hatfill, was sent first to Daschle and Leahy - the majority leader of the Democratic opposition in the Senate, and the Democratic head of the Judiciary Committee.

-The government said the anthrax powder sent to Daschle and Leahy had been put through a much more sophisticated process of milling to aerosolize the spoors, such as would require advanced technology from a state weapons program.

-This exceptional piece of constituent mail arrived at Daschle and Leahy's offices about a week after the USA PATRIOT Act was submitted to the Congress. Leahy had initially opposed the Act, and requested clarification of its more extreme provisions from Ashcroft. Ashcroft never answered.

- Senate offices were shut down and Capitol Hill went into an uproar. For weeks, as employees lined up for doses of antibiotics, Hazmat and FBI agents poked around in the Senate.

- By the end of that month the Republican-majority House chose to run home. As they left, they cast their votes for the USA PATRIOT Act and its negation of the U.S. Constitution. As Republican Congressman Ron Paul has made clear, most of them did not even receive a text of the 300-page final version of the USA PATRIOT Act before they voted for it, let alone read it.

- The Senate soon followed suit, also approving USA PATRIOT.

- Reports told that Sens. Kennedy and Levin, two other liberals, had also received anthrax letters, although no photos of these letters were published.

- The notes included with the anthrax letters to Daschle, Leahy and Tom Brokaw tried to point the blame at Arab perpetrators, but these were clumsy and transparent. ("Allah is Great" instead of "God Is Great" or "Allah Akhbar.") In childlike, block capital letters.

- The news at first wanted to blame it on Arabs, or Iraq. Why should that damned Osama bin Laden hate the Democratic leadership, as opposed to Republican leaders?

- Only days later did reports arrive of anthrax being found in mail to the White House, Pentagon, Federal Reserve, CIA, etc. All of their mail had by then been very safely isolated on military bases. No details about these alleged attacks have been released. We have not seen copies of the letters, as was the case with the letters to Daschle, Leahy and Tom Brokaw. There have to my knowledge been no follow-up reports on the provenance of the anthrax employed in these cases.

How strange how the first attacks, the only ones that had a chance to get through, went to the Democratic leadership!

- Suddenly, the anthrax wave stopped as quickly as it had begun. The biggest U.S. media story of October 2001 was effectively swept away. The media obediently switched to the taking of Kabul and spent November 2001 preparing us for a thoughtful Thanksgiving, with endless soul-searching stories asking how our country could have ever produced Johnny Taliban Walker.

- Anthrax has since been mentioned only rarely and out of context, as when Powell had the gall to hold up a vial of white powder at the UN and ask where Saddam is hiding his anthrax (much of which was provided by the US in the 1980s). Well, Colin, where are you keeping yours?

-All the foreign anthrax letters reported at various times in 2001 have been dismissed as white-powder hoaxes.

-It was established quickly that the anthrax to Leahy and Daschle was of recent production, with high-quality, weaponized spores such as can be produced only by a specialist at an advanced facility; and that the lineage goes back to Fort Detrick, Maryland and the Ames strain used by American biowarfare programs.

-For all this, the anthrax perpetrator(s) made an obvious effort to minimize casualties and target the letters very specifically to individuals. The same amount of anthrax could have been spread in a fashion causing many more deaths.

-Having gotten as far as Stephen Hatfill, the FBI investigation stalled. Hatfill has been a "person of interest" for more than two years, his house has been invaded several times by sniffer-dog teams, and the FBI even drained a pond near his house to see if he had grown anthrax spores in it; but no further progress has been reported in the investigation.

- Could it be that the "lone perpetrator" thesis is not sustainable, and they don't want to deal with the implications?

What can we conclude?

Unlike Sept. 11th, the anthrax attacks were a selective wave of terror. The confirmed letters, the ones that resulted in the deaths of six people, were targeted at specific individuals: reporters, news media personalities, and four leading Democratic senators. This was by design, there was nothing random about it. The perpetrators have not been presented and so we can only speculate about their motives, but there is no doubt about the direct and predictable effect of their design: the attacks were perfectly sequenced and timed to cow the opposition, force through the Patriot Act, make an exampe of deviant journalists, divert the 9/11 investigation, and frighten and occupy the media during the first phase of the Afghanistan war. The attacks provided important reinforcement in keeping these various actors from questioning the official post-Sept. 11th atmosphere of terror and panic. They were the key step in initiating the formal transformation of American society and law.

In simpler words, the anthrax attacks look exactly as though they were planned and executed by a black-ops or damage-control team working on behalf of the Bush regime's goals, either as rogues or as appointed hitmen. They may have hit Bob Stevens as a revenge job, they hit the media to shut them up, and they hit Daschle and Leahy to intimidate them into accepting the USA PATRIOT Act. We might compare the crew who were responsible for this to Nixon's Plumbers, except that they were more sophisticated and effective in their choice of methods; or, perhaps, they simply had better protection among their sponsors.

That is the hypothesis so far that best covers all of the above facts. In this case, there is no doubt which way Occam's razor cuts. Anthrax was almost certainly an inside job.

In fact, this is the thesis that many people subscribe to when speaking off the record in the the world capital of paranoia itself, Washington, DC.

And what has Daschle done or said about these facts? Are Brokaw and Rather really unaware of all this? They have chosen not to defend themselves against what are, in effect, attempts on their own lives.

This is the context in which we should view the Jan. 2002 call from Cheney, the premature Cipro-taker, to Daschle, the anthrax recipient. Cheney threatened Daschle of dire consequences if he should push too hard for a 9/11 investigation in the Congress. This single call led to a series delays in the Congressional joint inquiry of Sept. 11, which finally opened in June 2002.

Daschle - and Leahy, and all the other Senators including Kerry and Edwards - are so scared, or so compromised, or otherwise being blackmailed with other threats, that they have not risen to this challenge. I don't envy or accuse them, but how can you expect these guys to ever confront the Bush mob?

(*NOTE: What justification is there for programs like "Jefferson"? This program not only finds out what terrorists might do, it no doubt discovers ways to do it that they might not have thought of themselves. The government scientists gain the astonishing insight that there's fuck-all they can do to stop evil biology students from engaging in such activities if they so wish. And the program's results will be written up in a little "defensive" manual on how to make your own anthrax lab. One day, probably soon, that will end up in the hands of one of our freedom fighters somewhere... and a years down the line he or his successor will use it against the U.S., thus setting off the next round of "defensive" activity on our part. At least it's lucrative!)

(** Note 2: Interestingly, earlier in the year one Jerome Hauer took up his new job under Tommy Thompson at the Health Department, as the advisor for bioterrorism. This is the same Jerome Hauer who developed the West Nile spraying program and, ahem, the Office of Emergency Management on Floor 23 of WTC 7, during his tenure as a terrorism adviser to the City of New York. And the same Hauer who claimed to have gotten John O'Neill his last job, as counter-terror chief at the WTC, where he died on Sept. 11th.)

-------------------------------------

Following is interview with JOHN JUDGE (has a detail wrong: FBI was contacted by U of Iowa 10 days AFTER the first anthrax envelope was mailed, during the "Bob Stevens phase" of the attacks, and hence a smoking gun destruction of evidence! According tot the story the University wanted to destroy it, and asked the FBI if they could, and the FBI allowed this. Was front page of NY Times.)


"Anthrax - didn't come from abroad, the trail led to door of Ft. Detrick and then it stopped. They realized from its DNA signature that it was Ames screen-which means U. of Iowa, which had an archive of all the known pathenogenic strains of anthrax_.if you inhale it's a lot more lethal_. People would order various strains from them in order to work on cures for it or work to weaponize it. Once they identified it as Ames strain, it would have been possible to go back to Ames and figure out which particular batch this came from and then that batch would have had a paper trail of who had ordered that batch, but 10 days before the first Anthrax envelope was mailed, (this was recorded by the NY Times, and this was called a "bungling" of the investigation) FBI contacted the U. at Ames and convinced them to destroy the entire 70 year archive. So, there's absolutely no paper trail left. But there is information in the public record info about Project Jefferson and Operation Clear Vision, both running in year up to 9/11 reported on September 4th and 5th, it was a international scandal, USA was doing projects and experiments with chemical and biological elements that violated international treaties that the US had signed. They claimed that they had to because something similar was going on in Russia. Project Jefferson was first ordered by Rumsfeld when he came in to Pentagon, he tasked the DIA to generate the next generation of Anthrax. Anthrax should be genetically altered to be more resistant to the normal antibiotics (which was the case with this), and more weaponized, more distributable. _was weaponized at a level they had never seen. In other words, the earlier weaponization had gotten it down to 2 or 3 billion spores per gram, this was over a trillion spores per gram. It was a very lethal weapon. It couldn't have been developed by some guy in a lab. But on September the 9th, two days before the attack, the DIA held a press conference here in DC and announced they had developed the next generation of anthrax. Also, right on 9/11 the White House staff was told to go on Cipro. There was also a huge contract with Bioport, who put that out right before the attack. The Peace Center began when all this was a twinkle in some geneticist's eye.

SH: What are your conclusions about Anthrax?

JJ: Well, I think that this was another domestic terrorist attack that had the signature of US intelligence, or military intelligence on it. I think that that's where people have been reluctant to look.

------------


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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-08-06 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
21. Wash Post article
www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A28334-2002Oct27?language=printer

FBI's Theory On Anthrax Is Doubted
Attacks Not Likely Work Of 1 Person, Experts Say

By Guy Gugliotta and Gary Matsumoto
Washington Post Staff Writers
Monday, October 28, 2002; Page A01

A significant number of scientists and biological warfare experts are expressing skepticism about the FBI's view that a single disgruntled American scientist prepared the spores and mailed the deadly anthrax letters that killed five people last year.

These sources say that making a weaponized aerosol of such sophistication and virulence would require scientific knowledge, technical competence, access to expensive equipment and safety know-how that are probably beyond the capabilities of a lone individual.

"In my opinion, there are maybe four or five people in the whole country who might be able to make this stuff, and I'm one of them," said Richard O. Spertzel, chief biological inspector for the U.N. Special Commission from 1994 to 1998. "And even with a good lab and staff to help run it, it might take me a year to come up with a product as good."

Instead, suggested Spertzel and more than a dozen experts interviewed by The Washington Post in recent weeks, investigators might want to reexamine the possibility of state-sponsored terrorism, or try to determine whether weaponized spores may have been stolen by the attacker from an existing, but secret, biodefense program or perhaps given to the attacker by an accomplice.

The Defense Department and FBI refused repeated requests from The Post to discuss recent developments in the anthrax investigation. But in some important respects, the official version of events -- developed in part during the early, frantic days of the probe -- is at odds with the available evidence, the experts say. (...)
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-08-06 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. State spocered terrorism? So says the expert.
Those run of articles and the fact the whole thing has been ignored for so long is indeed rather curious.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-08-06 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
22. I'm AAUTTOP (BIMTSLFYO)
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-08-06 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. sedaibicla...
what?
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-08-06 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Oh
Edited on Fri Sep-08-06 01:29 PM by alcibiades_mystery
Against Adults Using The Term "On Purpose" (Because It Makes Them Sound Like Five Year-Olds).

:-)
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Ezlivin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-08-06 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. So are you MIHA or LIHA?
Made it Happen Accidentally or Let it Happen Accidentally?

:)
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-09-06 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #30
37. My little nephews say "It happened on accident"
Which makes sense, when you think about it. When they learn "on purpose" to them it is logical that the opposite is "on accident."

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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-09-06 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. "On purpose" is just as silly and childish as "on accident"
They're both expressions for small children. That a whole movement defines themselves by the expression is truly comical. A bunch of adults walking around saying "on purpose." Do they have Pasghetti Fundraisers? Are we asposed to take them seriously?

:rofl:
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-09-06 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Finally, someone who appoints themselves "the language police."
The only thing silly or childish is your odd contention that there are "expressions for small children."

The on-line dictionary gives this definition for "on purpose." :10. on purpose, by design; intentionally: How could you do such a thing on purpose?

Do you have any citation anywhere to support your odd theory of language? I'd love to see it.

Attempting to ridicule people who don't share your opinion through a linguistically ignorant theory smacks of a level of immaturity I haven't observed before. What lengths will the OCTs go to in their frustrated attempts to get people to stop asking questions?

As to 9/11? I think a faction of the Neocons made it happen on purpose. And I'm proud to say it.
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #37
52. That's sweet. The sweetest thing I ever read in the 9/11 forum!
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Ezlivin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-08-06 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. I knocked over a stack of cans in the grocery store
I didn't mean to, but I made it happen. Not on purpose.

I went bowling and knocked over some pins. I made it happen on purpose.

I was showering when the phone rang and the answering machine picked up. I let it happen, but not on purpose. (I was kind of busy in the shower.)

In the kitchen I was frying some catfish. They started to blacken. I let it happen on purpose.

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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-08-06 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. kick me
On purpose
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-09-06 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #28
36. LIHP and MIHP are more adult but lack the acronym value
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Nozebro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-09-06 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
33. Anthrax attacks by Gov't agents is not new. Back in 1723, blankets

that had some kind of biological agent in them (can't remember exactly what, but I believe I read that it was smallpox - or something equally deadly) ... were given to Indians in Delaware in order to send them to an early grave so their land could be more easily taken.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-09-06 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
35. The All But Forgotten Terrorist Attack
The possibilities are endless.

Could be just some nut taking advantage of the hysteria (my favored explanation) to launch something he was already going to do.

Could be Al Qaeda, though that's hard to take seriously.

If it was MIHOP, it would be part of the plan. That would have been the easy part, in fact.

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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-09-06 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Please read the long posts above...
And then tell me it was a lone nut.
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Ezlivin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #38
43. Too much information, perchance
With all the evidence you provided it seems that you've created an information overload.

It looks like you'll have to distill it all down to one simple sentence for some of the readers.

Great work, by the way.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 08:29 AM
Response to Original message
42. kick
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. And the field goal is good!! n/t
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Nozebro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 06:06 PM
Response to Original message
46. It was a truly bipartisan effort. Daschle was a fake target & for playing

along, his wife got a big payoff. She's a lobbyist for airlines and played a major role in the corporate welfare giveaway from the Gov't to her clients.
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FoxOnTheRun Donating Member (829 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. So when do you think your fellow citizens will wake up to this circus?
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
48. MIHOP
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Ignacio Upton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 01:31 AM
Response to Original message
49. Other
Edited on Mon Sep-11-06 01:32 AM by Ignacio Upton
I don't think it was Al Qaida or the Bush Administration directly (and I believe that 9/11 was merely incompetence.) I believe that I disgruntled person working at one of the labs took the Anthrax samples and mailed them himself. Based on the destinations of the letters (with the New York Post as an exception) the person probably leaned to the right politically.
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 02:14 AM
Response to Original message
50. MIHOP, Hauer told the WH to take cipro on 9-11
He was also friends with Stephen Hatfill. Also, the democratic targets, I mean come on...
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. please remind me...
I used to know these two...

How do we know it was Hauer who made the recommendation, other than that he's an undersecretary at the health dept.?

How do we know H & H were friends.

I'd appreciate the sources.

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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 07:49 AM
Response to Original message
53. MIHOP
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
54. When I thinkof the PNAC and its goals, I can definitely see the basis
for LIHOP.

MIHOP, naw, can't see them having the competence to pull it off, they'd have had to use blueprints from the Northwoods project and they could be somehow caught at it, since they don't have the brains God gave a fly.

The reason WTC 7 is ignored. That event of 911 gives us food for thought. It is hard to believe secondary fires brought the building down so perfectly. What was in that building that they were trying to hide? And you know they would have done it to hide their incompetence, or LIHOP. For MIHOP, they'd have come up with a better explanation of why it came down, however lame.

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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #54
55. As I have often done before with others, I must question your
belief in incompetance.

First, who is the "they" that you speak of that "don't have the brains God gave a fly?"

Second, can you point to any instances of incompenence that don't also coincide with the Neocons actual goals?


To be fair, I can think of one instance of incompetance that was detrimental to the Neocons goals. That would be the handleing of the Terry Schrivo circus. The administration was truly caught off guard by the public's reaction, and it cost them in terms of their RW Christian base, which was detrimental to the Neocon goals.

Other than that, I can't easily come up with any instances of incompetance which were detrimental to the Neocons goals.


I can come up with plenty of instances of incompetance that were detrimental to our goals. though. But let's not confuse our goals with the goals of the Neocons.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. If you believe the neocons are competent, then they are
capable of MIHOP, aren't they? In which case, the anthrax part of it was probably included.

Though if they were truly clever the victims would not have been Democrats. According to the rest of the R/W, PNAC, Republican story, the Democrats "side with the terrorists." Blah, Blah, so Al Qaeda would attack the "freedom loving" Republicans, not their "fellow travelers" the Democrats.

The anthrax attacks are at the bottom of most of the security measures taken, which are to protect government employees - metal detectors in federal buildings, searches, no cell phones, handing them documents through a glass box, they wear face masks to open the mail, etc.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. Yes, the anthrax leads back to our military labs/stock piles, genetically.
And the process to weaponize it is ours.

At this point, since whoever did it is still free as a bird, it looks like they weren't too incompetent.

I don't believe the Neocons are invincible or any such thing, only that they have access to a lot of brain power and know how. They aren't stupid, just socio-pathic. Which follows, because their heroes are Machiavelli and Nietzsche.
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DemInDistress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 04:52 PM
Response to Original message
57. MIHOP no doubt about it.... a clear message to Daschle. and
leahy. Those 2 rejected proposals by the dick and dummy. Those 2 murderers didn't kill and terrorize enough people on 911.
Funny how rarely the anthrax attacks are ever mentioned. It seems that it doesn't qualify as a second terror
attack.


911 was an inside job.
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
58. MIHOP!
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #58
61. Absolutely...MIHOP!
.
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ocean girl Donating Member (488 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 07:44 PM
Response to Original message
60. MIHOP
PNAC
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philb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
62. Its clear who benefited hugely from the Anthrax attacks
Anyone believe in follow the money?
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