9/11 skeptics challenge WTC findings

[cal04]

September 1, 2006

Before 2001, no steel-framed building in history had ever collapsed from fire -- on 9/11, three did. In December 2001, the Pentagon released a videotape of Osama bin Laden claiming responsibility for 9/11 -- but the man in the tape looked nothing like the al-Qaida leader and was wearing a gold ring, which is forbidden in Islam.

These are just two of the assertions that have gained traction with conspiracy theorists, who suggest the Bush White House knew about the hijackings well before they happened, and maybe even helped plan them.

"The attacks of 9/11 are the defining moments in our lives," said Jason Bermas, 27. "It has radically changed our domestic and international policy, and if it is based on a lie, we need to know that."

(snip)
Indeed, a recent Zogby poll of 1,200 adults nationwide found more than 42 percent believe the "government and 9/11 Commission concealed or refused to investigate critical evidence that contradicts their official explanation of the September 11 attacks."

http://www.amny.com/news/local/groundzero/am-loos0901,0,4383055.story?coll=am-topheadlines

[TAM]

1. Which Zogby Poll is that

Is the zogby poll your quote refers to, the August 2004 one of NEW YORK RESIDENTS on the eve of the Republican National Convention, or is it a more recent one? the reason I ask, is I cannot find the poll you refer to with 1200 people polled NATIONWIDE.

If you can, please point me to the poll you speak of, if it is different than the one I found.

[petgoat]

2. Here you go.

http://www.zogby.com/features/features.dbm?ID=231

Welcome to DU, TAM. :hi:

You found your way to the dungeon in a hurry.

Did you know about the Toronto Star poll several years ago that said 62%
of Canadians thought the Bushcists knew about 9/11 in advance and consciously
allowed it to happen?

[TAM]

3. Interesting Demographic Breakdown

Both men and women and residents in each of the four regions are more likely to say the U.S. government and 9/11 Commission are not covering up anything. Majorities who agree include Republicans (64%), 50-64 year-olds, married adults, suburbanites (59%), Protestants, those with at least some college education, and people with annual household income of $50,000 or more (57%).

Majorities (50%-56%) of Democrats, 18-29 year-olds, Hispanics, single adults and those who are divorced/widowed/separated, residents of small cities, and adults with less education than a high school diploma believe the government and 9/11 Commission are covering up something. Nearly half of independent voters (48%) agree.

Interesting how the vote went down, particularly with respect to education level, and age. The partisan split was an obvious one.

Oh, and thanks for the welcome. I hope, that no matter my opinion, that I will be tolerated at the least...:)

[hack89]

4. The inverse relationship in regards to education ..

is no surprise. And you have to wonder how much pure hatred and contempt for Bush play into the Republican/Democrat split. I think that the worst thing that will happen to the 911 truth movement is when the Democrats resume power.

[TAM]

5. I agree

Yes I think Democrats winning in 2008, which I am guessing will happen, will be the largest possible blow to the "Truth" movement. The pull out from Iraq, once they get in, will all but eliminate the movement.

[FoxOnTheRun]

7. Unless people vote only on 911 truth

http://www.911truthgroups.org/Default.aspx?tabid=310

not many are for 911 truth

http://carolforcongress.org/
http://www.bowman2006.com/
http://www.bobforohio.com/
http://www.hillsenatenow.org/

Democrats and Greens mostly

America needs more of them.. I would think. If there will be elections in the future

[Grateful for Hope]

8. I am hopeful

that we might have a chance of getting a truly independent investigation if dems win in 2006.

[hack89]

16. But the Dems are complicit in 9/11, aren't they?

1. Surely much of the planning must have been done during the Clinton era.

2. Clinton appointees were still working in the Pentagon and CIA on 9/11 yet they saw or heard nothing?

3. Dems were part of the whitewash known as the 911 commission.

4. Surely there were many at NIST and the FBI who were hired during the Clinton era.

There will be no independent investigation - the Dems know that some of the blame will settle on them.

[Grateful for Hope]

21. If the official story is true

then, you make some fairly good points. But, if, in fact, this administration was complicit, then I think blame could be placed squarely on it's shoulders.

Even though I really hope to see an independent, nonpartisan, international investigation into the events of 9/11, I do realize that this is probably one hope that has little likelihood of seeing fruition.

[FoxOnTheRun]

24. You just need

a dozen Cynthia McKinneys



Senator Bob Graham had breakfast with General Mahmoud Ahmad on 9/11

According to the FBI, Indian Intelligence and several press reports, the ISI Head was instrumental in providing financial support to the 9/11 terrorists. General Mahmoud Ahmad had allegedly ordered the transfer of $100.000 to the presumed 9/11 ring-leader Mohamed Atta.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO308C.html

Sen. Bob Graham on Sunday accused the Bush administration of engaging in a "coverup" of intelligence failures before and after the Sept. 11 attacks to shield it from embarrassment, and said the war with Iraq has allowed Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups to become a greater threat to Americans than ever before.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0512-04.htm

With those kinds of Democrats you won't get far

[FourScore]

6. Interesting.

43% of those polled were "not aware of World Trade Center Building 7's collapse" and 37% knew about it but thought it should have been investigated. Betcha' more than 42% would think there were a cover-up if they all knew the facts surrounding WTC7.

[Carefulplease]

9. Osama and the Golden Ring...

Bin Laden is seen wearing that ring in some other tapes whose authenticity is seldom questioned. The resolution of this video isn't high enough to establish what metal it is made of anyway. Also, the man seen on that tape looks very much like Osama Bin Laden. Some skeptics are fond of showing just one particular frame that seems to suffer more than other from compression artifacts and/or peculiar lighting. Why single out just that frame? The peculiar round face is clearly an artifact.

http://www.answers.com/topic/osama-bin-laden

[TAM]

10. I agree - "Truth" assessment spotty

I agree. I have problems with the "Truth" movements assessment of this tape. Mainly, because they pick certain frames, as well as point out what they feel are inconsistencies, which in fact are not.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4220657430794722240

This video is a very good overall assessment of it.

1. He has worn rings of many types on his right hand.
2. He is seen on more than one occasion eating and writing with the right hand.
3. A look at the entire video shows many more frames where the man looks just like Osama, not to mention the height of this man as he enters the room. Also, the fact that you can make out other high level Al-Qaeda officials in other parts of the video.

[Sinti]

11. Hi TAM. Welcome to DU

:hi:

Perhaps the counter-intelligence folks working on Usama are incorrect regarding his extreme fundamentalist faith. Maybe he's just using that line to recruit haters and killers. Hell, our freaky preachers do it all the time, I'm pretty sure it's neither a Christian nor caucasian phenomenon.

That said, may I ask, just out of curiosity, why straight into the dungeon? You obviously have disdain for people with questions regarding the veracity of the story our government told us about 9/11. The quotes you use around the word truth are generally pretty telling. Is it a morbid fascination with something you consider madness? Do you feel some pedantic calling? Do you enjoy confrontation? Do you feel, because you don't have questions and we, that you need to straighten us out? I'm curious, what brings you here?

No malice is intended in any of the above statement, and if any individual reading it is offended in any way, I request that they please accept my preemptive apology.

[TAM]

12. Why I came to the "Dungeon"

Valid Question.

You are partially right. I distain opinions not based in SOUND reasoning or fact. I find a good number of those in the "truth" movement are like this.

I never new it was referred to as the "Dungeon", perhaps I should have lurked a little more. The reason I decided to join, is that for all of the "Truth" type of arguments I have seen here, I have noticed something different here, c/w other Left wing (I actually am left of center in terms of my core beliefs) or "truth" forums, namely, a reasonableness in the tone, a sanity to the logic, and a tolerance for opposing views.

To be a believer in the views of your American Democratic Party, or to be left wing, does not have to mean a belief that 9/11 was an inside job. I personally believe the US Govt let 9/11 happen out of their own incompetence.

Thanks for asking, and not trashing.

TAM

[Sinti]

18. I agree, one's views on 9/11 and political leaning are not intertwined

They do certainly appear, in retrospect, to be completely asleep at the wheel up until 9/11, to the point of ridiculous, IMO.

Welcome to our playground. I hope we can learn from and teach each other, perhaps, in a civil and enjoyable manner. :)

[John Q. Citizen]

13. bush and the My Pet Goat book....

Bush is seen reading the book, "My Pet Goat," in other tapes that people don't womnder why he just sat there and read it.

Also, bush has appeared drunk or stoned on many occasions, and the CIA didn't hustle him off those times either. Why single out that one frame?



What this has to do with your post, Carefulplease, I can't say, anymore that what your post has to do with the OP you responded to.

Perhaps your mind is wandering......or is it fixing a hole where the rain gets in?

[FoxOnTheRun]

19. He probably was on cocaine,

because he told he saw the first plane hit the WTC on TV.

The Secret Service should have done something, because everybody knew where the president was.
And another hijackings were reported, also there was a threat against Air Force One

They also feared that Air Force One itself was a target. Cheney told the president there was a credible threat against the plane. Using the code name for Air Force One, Mr. Bush told an aide, “Angel is next.” The threat was passed to presidential pilot Col. Mark Tillman.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/11/60II/main521718.shtml

[Carefulplease]

20. "What this has to do with your post, Carefulplease, I can't say"

I can't say either what your diatribe has to do with my post.

"...anymore that what your post has to do with the OP you responded to."

I think it is permissible to challenge some claims or questionable premises advanced in a post without taking a stand on all the issues raised.

[John Q. Citizen]

23. Of course, except when I wrote this I didn't see any connection. Then

as I write in post #14 I saw it and said so.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[John Q. Citizen]

14. Oh I see, the link had one reference to it. Mystery solved.

Well, I saw a longer tape (besides the one frame) in loose change and the guy doesn't look like bin Laden in that clip either.

One thing is certain, if Bin Ladin is still alive, and the tapes the US keeps releasing from him are authentic, he sure likes bush being re-elected.

[TAM]

15. Ar eyou referring to the link I posted?

I am not sure JQC if you are referring to the link I provided, but it show "EXTENSIVE" lengths of the Bin Laden Tape in question, and also shows alot of other footage supporting the facts that I mentioned in my post.

[John Q. Citizen]

17. Isn't the full tape that the US found in a house in Afghanistan

(the so-called confession tape) a compilation of at least two tapes?

I was replying to Carefulplease's original post in this thread. It seemed off topic until I reread the link provided in the Original Posters original post, and then saw the gold ring reference.

I will check out your links.

I do know that in the past, Bin Laden sent tapes to various news media and claimed credit for such acts as the bombing of the embassies.

I suppose a guy who could pull off 9/11 might get sloppy and leave a tape lying around in some house in Afghanistan that the US might find quickly. Just seems like a different MO.

I have to finish cooking dinner, my daughter is letting me know.....

[Carefulplease]

22. Read again the first paragraph of message #1

The gold ring is mentioned there.

[John Q. Citizen]

26. Doh! Well at least I didn't even

get that half right.

[TAM]

25. Tape origins

I doubt Osama left the tape around...lol. He was, and is a hero to many Islamic Extremists, and I suspect and admiring member of Al-Qaeda, or something to that effect, had left it there, or had it "confiscated". Not sure.