9/11 Live: The NORAD Tapes

[orleans]

vanity fair article:

"How did the U.S. Air Force respond on 9/11? Could it have shot down United 93, as conspiracy theorists claim? Obtaining 30 hours of never-before-released tapes from the control room of NORAD's Northeast headquarters, the author reconstructs the chaotic military history of that day—and the Pentagon's apparent attempt to cover it up.
By MICHAEL BRONNER

snip

""The real story is actually better than the one we told," a NORAD general admitted to 9/11-commission staffers when confronted with evidence from the tapes that contradicted his original testimony. And so it seems.

Subpoenaed by the commission during its investigation, the recordings have never been played publicly beyond a handful of sound bites presented during the commission's hearings. Last September, as part of my research for the film United 93, on which I was an associate producer, I requested copies from the Pentagon. I was played snippets, but told my chances of hearing the full recordings were nonexistent. So it was a surprise, to say the least, when a military public-affairs officer e-mailed me, a full seven months later, saying she'd been cleared, finally, to provide them."

http://www.vanityfair.com/features/general/060801fege01

[CJCRANE]

1. "The hijack's not supposed to be for another hour"

Excerpt:

"When they told me there was a hijack, my first reaction was 'Somebody started the exercise early,'" Nasypany later told me. The day's exercise was designed to run a range of scenarios, including a "traditional" simulated hijack in which politically motivated perpetrators commandeer an aircraft, land on a Cuba-like island, and seek asylum. "I actually said out loud, 'The hijack's not supposed to be for another hour,'" Nasypany recalled. (The fact that there was an exercise planned for the same day as the attack factors into several conspiracy theories, though the 9/11 commission dismisses this as coincidence. After plodding through dozens of hours of recordings, so do I.)"

[Syrinx]

2. very interesting, K&R n/t

[mirandapriestly]

5. OMG

If THIS goes into the memory hole, I am going to be SOOOOO mad.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

21. """""!ijiO:!J!!!!!!!! !!!!111111 111111111111 1111111 11111111111

I can quote out of context, too.

[leesa]

60. What is your problem?

[Nihil]

168. Don't waste your breath (energy) ...

... arguing with someone suffering from a chronic allergy to
unpleasant facts ... rather like trying to persuade GWB of the
reality of climate change ...

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

172. The only allergy I have...

...is to quotes taken out of context.

[Name removed]

187. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TripeOmatic]

70. And """""!ijiO:!J!!!!!!!! !!!!111111 111111111111 1111111 11111111111

Is supposed to make that clear in some magical way?

[savemefromdumbya]

211. Are you Donald Rumsfeld by any chance?

[jpkenny]

39. Coincidence or not, it is plain that Condi was lying when she said

"no one could have imgained that planes would be used as weapons."

[Felix Mala]

185. No one except a group of Clinton officials in the 90's who studied

how terrorists could attack. One of the scenarios they looked at was hijacking planes and flying them into buildings. This was The Gore Commission, by the way. One remedy they came up with was to hire actual security people at all the airports, instead of the poorly-trained, minimum wage staff then employed. The Clinton administration took this proposal to congress every time the transportation bill was voted on and the airlines successfully removed it every time. If you want the key cause for 9/11, obviously it's in the way lobbyists can buy the law they want from congress.

[respublicus]

202. Terror Drills are the Conduits for False-Flag Terror Ops!

"Operations like these are generally conduited through the government bureaucracies
under the cover of a drill or exercise which closely resembles the terror operation itself."
http://waronfreedom.org/777.html

- Webster Tarpley, Author of 9/11 Synthetic Terror: Made in USA, in an article about the London 7/7 bombings.
Others have calculated the odds against the London Underground drills being coincidentally carried out at the same times and places as the bombs went off as an astronomical number with I think something like 40 zeroes...
On 9/11 there were the most drills and war games in recent history, pretty odd, too...

Webster Tarpley's tonight's interview with Mike Malloy will be archived, for link see www.mikemalloy.com

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WinkyDink]

89. Coincidence??!! From an Administration that TESTIFIED NOBODY

conceived of AIRPLANES' BEING FLOWN INTO BUILDINGS?!

[redqueen]

124. Not coincidence at all... that lie is completely indefensible. n/t

[Old and In the Way]

150. I wonder if either 11, 93, 175, and 77 were the plane to be 'hijacked'?

What would the chances be of a drug running hustler like Atta choosing the day and flight that is involved in the wargames? What are the odds that he might have been role playing on the flight?

[Generator]

182. I'm always wondering that myself

What are the odds? From what I've read the war games that day paralyzed the entire military. What are the odds? Did Atta know that was the day of the war games? You watch a catastrophe like Katrina happen and you see how inept, incompetent,and heartless they are and yet-what are the odds of all the coincidences of that one day?

[Old and In the Way]

190. The more you learn about Atta, the more you wonder about the

whole "terrorist" angle. Since 9/11, we've learned an lot of things about Atta that don't support his being a fantatical Muslim terrorist. His MO is someone who has been running a lot of illegal contraband and doing black assignments. He was a strip-club loving, coke snorting, party animal. Doing a suicide mission doesn't seem to fit with the character of Mr. Atta. I think it's more likely that Atta was a CIA asset that could be counted on to do pretty much whatever he was told to do. Since we now know there were simulated hijacking exercises that day, wouldn't there have been a need to make them as a realistic as possible? A plan for terrorists to storm the cockpit and take over the plane? Seems like you'd want some people who would volunteer to be the Arab terrorist hijackers to play this role. Atta certainly would have been a candidate.

To me, a most important detail of 9/11 is: Were any or all of these planes part of the exercise? That information is obviously known. Why don't we know? If some or all were part of the exercise, my coincidental meter will be premanently broken. Real terrorists randomly picked 9/11 AND the flights that were part of the exercise? That would change everything about the official story of 9/11, I think.

[Pierogi_Pincher]

194. What you said.

The events of that day as given to the public are not wholly believable. Things don't compute. Why doesn't the guvnament show us ALL the taped evidence as someone else also asked in another post?

P_P

[savemefromdumbya]

210. The 'hijack' was all planned regardless of the exercise and many knew it

[Poll_Blind]

3. Just finished reading/listening to the whole thing. That is an INCREDIBLE

...article.

Wow.

PB

[jpkenny]

24. I'm curious. You seem to be a person of open reason. What is your

take now, having read and listened to the entire article/video, on 9/11 conspiracies?

[davekriss]

47. Clear "wheel and spoke" conspiracy, MIHOP (eom)

[Poll_Blind]

54. This may be a disappointing or seemingly-cryptic answer but...

  Because there is so much seemingly-equal yet conflicting data (or differing interpretive inflections on data that agrees) I think it's poor form for me, personally, to actually believe any particular take. My government deliberately spreads disinformation and since most of the information in regards to 9/11 was in some way released by the Government, that data could be false. I can't tell how much, either. So, a while back I resolved to create some model for myself that would allow me to continue thinking critically, even in situations where I was certain some or most of my input was false.

  So I try never to collapse the wave form into a decision either way. I realize if I lock in to a particular thesis my brain will begin interpreting new data I receive to support that regardless of whether it logically does, or not. So I intentionally never settle on any theory beyond the presumed voracity of individual facts in relation to other facts. It's a little like being always on the edge of an intellectual sneeze, but I think it helps me keep all options open should new data arise.

  I am certainly not the strongest or smartest human being. But in such a fluid situation as America in 2006 I'm trying to train myself to be as adaptive as I may flex.

PB

[TripeOmatic]

73. Sounds like an uncommon and practical approach to disinformation overload.

Settling on a particular 'take' or 'belief' (on any issue) is the functional equivalent of 'shelving' the issue within a particular temporal prism. It's the lazy brain's option.

[shanti]

122. it's called cognitive dissonance

and MANY people practice it.

[Realityhack]

135. Not quite.

Cognitive disonence is the friction that arises from trying to belive two conflicting opinions/facts. An example might be a person who belives evolution but also beleives the bible is the word of god. The incompatability is cognitive disonence.

Not forming an opinion because of lack of facts would be better called a "scientific" approach which as you say is practiced by many people.

[lumberjack_jeff]

193. The cure to disinformation overload

Is to identify the obvious disinformation, of which there is plenty, largely distributed by the government.

There's enough evidence (short selling AAL in the week before, AWACS circling Bush's location on 9/10, rocket launchers stationed nearby, orders for senior staffers to not fly, etc.) to strongly suggest that the official accounts are a cover story.

It may or may not be possible to determine the truth, but I think it's possible to identify and discard the lies.

I agree with the foolishness of settling on any conclusion prematurely, but the risk of that is "the fair and balanced" approach in which all competing views, however assymetric in their legitimacy, are considered equally meritorious.

[dkos refugee]

94. here's a bit of irony

If everyone approached the subject in the same way that you do, then it's quite possible that you'd have enough information by now to know for sure what happened.

[atomic-fly]

105. well said

[longship]

107. I wish I could recommend and kick posts, and not just threads.

Because I would recommend this post. It is very cogent and intelligent.

[ElboRuum]

118. When no source of information is trustworthy...

Does it matter what the truth is? Isn't it then just a case of which set of "truths" to believe?

[AntiFascist]

123. Secret government contractors are probably also responsible...

for releasing some of the more far-fetched conspiracy theories, such as the "evidence" showing that laser-guided weapons were used on the planes hitting the WTC. As soon as I saw the website for this, I was thinking it must be some kind of cointel operation.

[LeighAnn]

62. Doesn't change anything

Nothing that I read or heard there, gripping as it was, changed my opinion that the Bush Administration/Carlyle Group allowed the 9-11 attacks to happen on purpose for the sake of power consolidation and financial gain.

I've got some of my conspiracy stuff here

http://www.hereinreality.com/conspiracy

It's an old page, though, and I need to update it. Lot of interesting stuff on there, still.

[katty]

136. me too, it is incredible!

[rman]

4. confusion regarding "real life" vs exercise;

<snip>

In the background, several troops can be heard trying to make sense of what's happening.

09:04:50—Is this explosion part of that that we're lookin' at now on TV?—Yes.—Jesus …—And there's a possible second hijack also—a United Airlines …—Two planes?…—Get the fuck out …—I think this is a damn input, to be honest.PLAY | STOP

The last line—"I think this is a damn input"—is a reference to the exercise, meaning a simulations input. It's either gallows humor or wishful thinking. From the tape, it's hard to tell.

<snip>

[mirandapriestly]

6. what do you mean about the "input"?

I don't know military terminology. It sounds like it was all faked.

[rman]

12. key-word: "simulation", as in "not real"

simulations input = 'false radar blip' as part of exercise.

[DoYouEverWonder]

25. Too bad the Secretary of Defense

and the Acting Chief of Staff were unavailable during the attack.

They deliberately hampered the response to the attack by being unavailable. The military response that day looks like a ship without a captain and a navigator. The crew is doing their best to sail the ship but they have no clue where they are going and there is no one in command to tell them what to do.

[Canuckistanian]

57. Did Rummy ever release a timeline of his movements that day?

I keep hearing vague stories about him on the lawn of the Pentagon "helping victims" (of which there were none to help).

Not to mention that it would be a grave error for the SecDef to be wandering around on a lawn while the country is under attack.

[DoYouEverWonder]

90. Here are some quotes from the horses' mouth has they say

Q: Do you remember then the impact of the plane into the Pentagon? Or had you first heard stories about New York? What was --

Wolfowitz: We were having a meeting in my office. Someone said a plane had hit the World Trade Center. Then we turned on the television and we started seeing the shots of the second plane hitting, and this is the way I remember it. It's a little fuzzy.

Q: Right.

Wolfowitz: There didn't seem to be much to do about it immediately and we went on with whatever the meeting was. Then the whole building shook. I have to confess my first reaction was an earthquake. I didn't put the two things together in my mind. Rumsfeld did instantly.

http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/2003/tr20030509-depsecdef0223.html




KING: You were right here when the Pentagon...

RUMSFELD: I was.

KING: And someone told me that you had spoken to a congressional delegation...

RUMSFELD: Right here in this room.

KING: ... in this room about terrorism that morning. RUMSFELD: I had said at -- I had an 8 o'clock breakfast -- that sometime in the next two, four, six, eight, 10, 12 months, there would be an event that would occur in the world that would be sufficiently shocking that it would remind people, again, how important it is to have a strong, healthy Defense Department that contributes -- that underpins peace and stability in our world. And that is what underpins peace and stability. It's the fact -- we can't have healthy economies and active lives unless we live in a peaceful, stabile world. And I said that to these people.

And someone walked in and handed a note that said that a plane had just hit the World Trade Center. And we adjourned the meeting. And I went in to get my CIA briefing right next door here, and the whole building shook within 15 minutes. And it was a jarring thing.

KING: And you ran toward the smoke?

RUMSFELD: Yes.

KING: Because?

RUMSFELD: Oh, goodness, who knows? I wanted to see what had happened. I wanted to see if people needed help. And went downstairs and helped for a bit with some people on stretchers. And then I came back up here and started to realize I had to get back up here and get at it.


http://www.september11news.com/Mysteries3.htm


Every report about Rummie's actions on the morning of 9-11 all gloss over the 50 minute gap from when the first tower was hit until the Pentagon was attacked. Everyone interviewed tries to make it sound like only a few minutes had passed.

[Canuckistanian]

127. Unbelievable

I had no idea he was that stupid. Even if his staff failed to inform him, the minute something happened to the pentagon, he should have run to a safe place.

And where was SS? Aren't there SS staff assigned to everyone in the Cabinet? Where were they that morning?

Thanks for the links!
:hi:

[DoYouEverWonder]

130. Tori Clark interrupted Rummie's meeting

soon after the first tower was hit. Rummie & Wolfie watched the attack go down on TV and did nothing.

[Old and In the Way]

153. Nor Eberhardt and Meyers.

Biggest joint military exercise of the year and the head of NORAD is traveling and the acting JCS is schmoozing with Max Cleland witha "do not disturb" sign on the door. Boy, those hijackers really got lucky that day...

[HuffleClaw]

7. interesting

a long read but well worth it. i've yet to listen to the audio though. the media seems to think mel gibson is far more important though.

[Phrogman]

8. Its like the Keystone Cops with an Air Force

Why don't they practice this once in a while?

They completely blew it!

[SupplyConcerns]

9. Don't forget the interview tapes that were destroyed

Namely, the interviews recorded on 9/11 with the NORAD radar operators. It's referenced in Crossing the Rubicon, the New Pearl Harbor, etc. The tapes were shredded and dropped into multiple trash bins in different parts of one building by one of the superiors, intentionally before a transcript or copies could be made. I wish I could provide a link right now but it's 4:25 AM and I ought to go to bed.

[hang a left]

30. Those were FAA tapes nt

[davekriss]

137. The tapes of air traffic controllers were destroyed...

...and disposed of in the fashion you describe, not NORAD recordings.

[Eurobabe]

10. This isn't Kansas anymore, look at London on 7/7

"The fact that there was an exercise planned for the same day as the attack factors into several conspiracy theories, though the 9/11 commission dismisses this as coincidence. After plodding through dozens of hours of recordings, so do I."

How convenient that London was ALSO conducting "exercises" on the day of the Tube bombings. Something stinks about this exercise on 9/11. I still swear someday it will come out that these bastards either MIHOP or LIHOP. I'll go to my grave with belief.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

23. Why do you insist on propogating disinformation?

How convenient that London was ALSO conducting "exercises" on the day of the Tube bombings.

"London" was not conducting any such exercise. A company with offices in the City was conducting an on-paper exercise in a conference room with no coordination whatsoever between the company and the transit autority of London or anybody else. It had no effect on anybody outside of said conference room.

The person running the exercise has repeatedly stated the above, not that you'd know it from reading any of the conspiracist websites or DU postings.

Sorry, but your assertion is bull fucking shit.

[mirandapriestly]

221. Yes, exercises were held on that day, interesting coincidence.eom

[paulthompson]

11. More spin

As the author of the 9/11 Timeline, I find this article very interesting as it probably contains new tidbits of truth, but it obviously is still mostly filled with spin to protect the guilty.

The author very carefully selects some facts and ignores others in an attempt to preserve the 9/11 Commission's account as much as possible. But even forgetting the conflicting facts not mentioned in the article, the article itself is self-contradictory. For instance, it says:

But by the time NEADS gets the report of a bomb on United 93, everyone on board is already dead. Following the passengers' counterattack, the plane crashed in a field in Pennsylvania at 10:03 a.m., 4 minutes before Cleveland Center notified NEADS, and a full 35 minutes after a Cleveland Center controller, a veteran named John Werth, first suspected something was wrong with the flight. At 9:28, Werth actually heard the guttural sounds of the cockpit struggle over the radio as the hijackers attacked the pilots.

Werth's suspicions about United 93 were passed quickly up the F.A.A.'s chain of command, so how is it that no one from the agency alerted NEADS for more than half an hour?

A former senior executive at the F.A.A., speaking to me on the condition that I not identify him by name, tried to explain. "Our whole procedures prior to 9/11 were that you turned everything over to the F.B.I.," he said, reiterating that hijackers had never actually flown airplanes; it was expected that they'd land and make demands. "There were absolutely no shootdown protocols at all. The F.A.A. had nothing to do with whether they were going to shoot anybody down. We had no protocols or rules of engagement."

---

Yet earlier in the article it mentions how Boston flight control directly and immediately contacted NEADS without going through the FAA chain of command. In fact, it's not mentioned here, but Boston even directly called up military bases. So why couldn't Cleveland flight control do the same?! It also says earlier in the article that it was standard procedure to send up fighters at the first reasonable sign of trouble and investigate (in fact, there's a series of steps the fighter is supposed to take, for instance getting close enough to see into the cockpit of the hijacked plane to see if it's hijacked). But the quote from the FAA official above confuses the issue of sending up a fighter to investigate vs. permission to shoot down the hijacked plane. Just because you may not have permission to shoot down the plane yet is no reason to keep fighters on the ground! In fact, that's a violation of very clear protocols.

NORAD lied and lied, with something like five different accounts of what happened that day already, yet now we're supposed to believe they suddenly come clean with the release of these tapes? This is just one more level of spin to further confuse and hide the truth. There are so many other lies and half-truths in this article that I can't even begin to list them.

But there are some interesting tidbits of probable truth. For instance, the revelation that there was a war game of a hijacked plane scheduled an hour later - an important fact the 9/11 Commission never bothered to mention. Mike Ruppert and others have speculated that there were injects of false radar data that day as part of the wargame, and sure enough, we find out that as late as 9:04, one of the flight controllers says: "I think this is a damn input, to be honest." At the very least, this shows a lot of confusion relating to the war game, another thing denied by the 9/11 Commission and all official accounts.

[Zhade]

22. Thanks for the analysis, Paul!

Top-notch as always.

[RandomKoolzip]

63. Great post.

Thank you for writing the 9/11 Timeline, BTW. That was an incredible read. :thumbsup:

[elehhhhna]

64. Paul, you are the anti-timfoil voice of reason on 911. THANK YOU

from the bottom of my heart.

We (citizens) are very, very lucky you've taken this on.

[Rude Horner]

71. Love your work, Paul

I quote your book quite often around here.

[joeunderdog]

82. Curious anecdotal story for you...

On 9/11, my parents chose a flight to the west coast on the way to Hawaii from Boston. In order to accommodate the driver who transported them to the airport, they chose a flight that departed 20 minutes later than the first plane that flew into the tower. That tower plane was their 2nd option. Thank God they chose the plane they did.

They never took off, so Boston/Logan knew something was really wrong within that 20 minutes. After they remained on the runway for over an hour, the plane went back to be unloaded. The passengers were told to gather their belongings without delay and leave the airport immediately.

Not one, but 2 planes were hijacked from Logan that morning and the terror plot was unfolding by the minute. Logan definitely knew this. But it was certainly possible that more planes were at risk for being hijacked, and that would mean that there were terrorists aboard planes or in the airport. But none of the passengers were interviewed, frisked or treated in any way like they could be part of The Plan. They were summarily dismissed and told to go home. Why is that?

[Ghost Dog]

139. Interesting. Good question, thanks.

What's your own answer? What do your parents think?

[grasswire]

87. Paul Thompson, American hero

Thanks once again for your courage and diligence, Paul.

Just for the clarification of a lot of people, do you believe the plane actually hit the Pentagon per the official story, and that flight 93 was driven to the ground by the passengers?

[paulthompson]

99. Thanks

For all the compliments. :) Regarding the plane hitting the Pentagon, that's not my area of expertise, I like for engineering types to focus on that. But I do think it's damning the videos of the crash have never been released. Re: Flight 93, if someone put a gun to my head, my best guess is that it was brought down by electronic jamming from a military C-130 plane that was known to be about 20 miles away. It is known some C-130's had electronic jamming capablities specifically to bring down airplanes. But again, that's just my speculation.

[slack]

156. Nice to read you :)

I'am following your timeline a couple of years, really great work Paul. I don't know, how many times I had linked your timeline, a great tool to understand the backround story. Honest greetings from Munich, Germany.

[Realityhack]

134. I dissagree to an extent.

"A former senior executive at the F.A.A.... tried to explain."

The passage that you dissagree with and that I too find to be BS is a quote from an F.A.A. official not the author's words. The author's words are earlyer in the article:
"Boston's request for fighter jets is not as prescient as it might seem. Standard hijack protocol calls for fighters to be launched—"scrambled"—merely to establish a presence in the air. The pilots are trained to trail the hijacked plane at a distance of about five miles, out of sight, following it until, presumably, it lands. If necessary, they can show themselves, flying up close to establish visual contact, and, if the situation demands, maneuver to force the plane to land."

I see no problem with quoting an official lying his ass off. I didn't personaly see the article as particularly supporting that opinion as somehow true (Though I would agree that it would have been better to outright call them on it). I think on the whole the article makes it blatantly clear that the F.A.A. was all fucked up that day. While it would be wrong to see the article as some kind of truth the tapes themselves offer quite a window into what was happening at NEADS tht day.

[Just Me]

138. Your input is greatly appreciated. Hiding the truth is "hard work".

HUH!!! :rofl:

This shit get so extreme,...it IS COMEDY. Our country has become nothing short of a series of comedies,....and tragedies.

[dailykoff]

199. Absolutely.

From the producers of "United 93," no less.

[eridani]

13. Could they have handled the situation if there had NOT been simulations?

That is unclear to me. Looks like we have a real problem with various agencies not set up to share information.

[Realityhack]

140. From what I can peice together...

No. The real problem here was not the simulations. You hear those things dismissed in seconds on the tape. 'is this drill or real life''real life''oh shit' (obiviously paraphrasing not quoting).

The biggest problem seems to be lack of good information as you said but I do not think the planned simmulation/drill/whatever was at fault. Seems to me the ancient equipment at NEADS in combination with poor communication from the FAA and American Airlines left them with virtualy no real options.

[Vidar]

14. The truth is finally coming out. Yeehaw!

[DoYouEverWonder]

15. Well. bits and pieces of it at least

Seems that someone is trying to maintain control over the 'official' version because maybe some big revelation is about to come to light and the traitors are trying to CYA before the bombshell drops?

[Wednesdays]

29. Perhaps it's

CYA for this story?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2429785

[DoYouEverWonder]

32. That's a big part of it

Like maybe someone has proof that is so indisputable that no one, except the true fundie Bushbots, could deny that 9-11 was a BushCo Production?

[Vidar]

84. Could be, but I'm starved for good news.

[GeronimoSkull]

16. Poll: 1 in 3 Americans suspects 9/11 inside job

http://www.gnn.tv/headlines/10263/Poll_Third_of_Americans_suspect_9_11_inside_job

[ixion]

17. Ironic, isn't it? 30% is enough to keep Little Lord Pants on Fire in

office, but it's not enough to generate interest in discovering the truth about the largest attack on American soil since the freakin civil war.


Some planet we live on. :crazy:

[Just Me]

149. Dayum! ONE IN THREE!!!!

:wow: That is statistically VERY significant.

ONE IN THREE!!!!

I dunno'. I'm skeptical. It is very difficult for me to believe that. I'm not saying it's "bad", I am just stunned at that high a percentage. I'd have to take a looksee at the polling to believe that.

[Turbineguy]

18. Fascinating stuff.

Security was placed in the hands of the airlines who saw it as a cost without demonstrable benefits.

The Bush Administration ignored the warnings.

The FBI failed to follow up on leads.

There was obsolete equipment.

There were rules of engagement based on a different hijack tactic.

There was an exercise scheduled.

There was a new tactic in hijackings

There were multiple hijackings.

There was an information overload (3000 aircraft in the sky).

There was confusion.

There was imprecision of information. American Airlines obviously was not helping.

All things considered, the day went rather well (I'm not trying to be funny). They did not shoot down the wrong planes. All the other planes were brought down safely.

I think some of these people performed incredibly well.

I have always disagreed with the idea that there was a Bush (or PNAC) conspiracy. The magnitude of the operation was too large and too many things could have gone wrong exposing the conspirators.

As for the 1/3rd of Americans who believe 9/11 was an inside job, more than that voted for Bush the second time around.

[mallard]

48. Re: always disagreed with the idea that there was a Bush (or PNAC)

You forgot to add to your list the part about people coming along afterwards to make sure all suspicions of the Bush/PNAC gang 9/11 connection gets doused because it looks bad for their friends. They usually sound real sure, too, like they have the inside track on the real scoop.

Simultaneous hijacking exercises were not just a distractive nuisance that day and al Qaeda does not have people in positions to know these things anything like the way the war-for-Israel crowd does.

[elehhhhna]

65. The NYFD/PD performed well. The outoftheloop people probably

performed well. But it's all to convneient and coincidental.

WHERE WAS RUMMY? CHENEY? BUSH? etc. as nauseum

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

19. "The real story is actually better than the one we told," NORAD general

"The real story is actually better than the one we told," a NORAD general admitted to 9/11-commission staffers when confronted with evidence from the tapes that contradicted his original testimony. And so it seems.

Now say this slowly. The real story is actually better than the one we told

Real story - so he knows that there are multiple stories, one of them "real"

Better than the one WE told - more than one person agreed to tell the same story. They have words that describe this, don't they?

[QuettaKid]

26. EXACTLY ! ! !

I almost fell off my chair when I read that "the real story"....WTF!?!?!? I believe the word you are looking for is C-O-N-S-P-I-R-A-C-Y

[elehhhhna]

66. And that leads us the the ords "RICO statute" and on to "HIGH CRIMES etc."

which ultimately leads to "Impeachent" and "Prosecution" and finally, "The Hague". Bout time.

[hootinholler]

46. To whom exactly did they tell the not real story?

If it was congress, they broke the law. A serious law with serious consequences a serious penalty.

-Hoot

[SlavesandBulldozers]

92. Law! hahahah good one!!!

That's so Pre-Sept.11th. 9-11 changed everyting. Never forget.

[donkeyotay]

77. Better?

"I was shocked at how different the truth was from the way it was described," John Farmer, a former New Jersey attorney general who led the staff inquiry into events on Sept. 11, said in a recent interview. "The tapes told a radically different story from what had been told to us and the public for two years. . . . This is not spin. This is not true."

[savemefromdumbya]

212. Congress should now ask the NORAD general what he means

open up the 9/11 commission with independent members

[booksenkatz]

20. Question: how often do they conduct such exercises?

Monthly? Annually? Anyone know?

Just wondering.

[Mnemosyne]

27. Unprecedented in US history.

15 "drills" that day.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

67. Cite? n/t

[Mnemosyne]

146. See post 145. n/t

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

162. Alex Jones? Please.

The man thinks UN black helicopters and jewish bankers control Bill Clinton. Zero credibility.

[Mnemosyne]

164. Maybe Alex Jones doesn't meet your "test", but the rest have

great credentials.

Why only focus on Alex Jones? Hmm?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

166. Because anybody who associates with Alex Jones...

...is associating with a man who said that Bill Clinton was an evil, evil man, controlled by international Jewish bankers and the United Nations. And quite frankly, anybody who cozies up to that gibbering fool is inherently free of credibility.

[Mnemosyne]

169. Many that we respect DO have feet of clay. n/t

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

170. Alex Jones, on the other hand, has a head of clay.

His pathetic trashing of Clinton isn't some subtle flaw. It forms the fucking basis of his personality and his beliefs.

[Mnemosyne]

173. Truth is still truth, whether you like the messenger or not.

Jones attacks on Clinton were disgusting, but I am searching for the truth about 9/11 and it matters not who exposes it.

The truth must be known.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

175. He isn't "exposing" any "truth."

He is a proven liar. Hell, you even admit this. Why would you believe anything that comes out of his mouth?

[Mnemosyne]

177. The OCT of 9/11 is a LIE!

And you know this yibbehobba.

There are many, many credible people working to get the truth out on this now, why focus on this one? It makes no sense that all because one involved has lied in the past, that we should not believe anyone working to uncover the truth about 9/11.

I don't understand your reasoning behind that. :shrug:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

178. What's an OCT?

I'm sorry, I can't keep up with the MHM's FoNAG.


There are many, many credible people working to get the truth out on this now, why focus on this one?

Because "credible people" attending a 9/11 conference by Alex Jones would be like climatologists attending a symposium on global warming held by Exxon.

[Name removed]

186. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

204. Gee, where to begin?

People like you

People like what?

will do anything, say anything, and believe anything to help you believe in the Governments party line and the official story.

First off, I don't believe the government's "party line." I just don't believe in your conspiracy theories either.


Forget the argument about Alex Jones.

No, I won't, because it's important. Credibility is important, and he has none. That is the point of what I've been saying. I just wanted to call attention to that before we descend into the rest of the gibberish you wrote, none of which is relevant to the point I was making.


The only thing I have ever seen you do is attack ANYTHING that is outside the official story.

No, I only attack MIHOP ideas, because they are crazier than a coked-up doberman.


The Official Story is a lie.

That's a simplistic statement and, in a nutshell, it's my entire problem with your so-called "truth-seeking" movement. No truth or great insight can come from such broad generalisations. There are plenty of lies in the "official story." I just happen not to believe that those lies imply a vast conspiracy involving thousands of people and unreconcilable motives.


Useless, Party Line Apologist.

Baseless personal attack. You still haven't addressed my original point, except to say that it's irrelevant, which any proper research will tell you is wrong. Credibility is important. Alex Jones has none. You come close to admitting this yourself. And who or what am I apologising for, exactly? I don't like the current administration any more than you do. I just have different ideas about what they did and didn't do.


You're too afraid of what the truth might be, so you must do everything you can to maintain what you want it to be.

Yes. So afraid, in fact, that I actually have read most of the relevant MIHOPer-produced material, and found it lacking in basic coherence and rationality, and based on half-truths. And I've read enough about the authors of most of it to know how sick they really are. And yes, you have made yet another pointless personal attack.



Someone who really loves his country isn't afraid to ask questions, and is not afraid to consider other options.

You hit the trifecta! Three personal attacks in one message. Congrats.

[Nitty-Gritty]

206. Kind of funny take on things, but that's okay.

No reason to hold back.

[nolabels]

200. Everybody does untruthful things no matter if you care to admit it or not

Alex Jones is a source, not a end-all-be-all. Everyone must eventually learn to discern conjecture from objectivity and understand that even things known to be facts can be debated at different levels.

Maybe you or some other good thinker can postulate on the life style of M.Atta and why he would be doing all these earthly things just before his alleged death on 9/11 if he was a true Islamic Jihadist. I picked this idea up listening to one of Alex Jones call in guests just today.

The call in guest and Alex went on to deduct that M.Atta was a on the payroll asset and used a patsy that day. Do you have any theories about any of it?

[Realityhack]

141. Sorce???

Where is this from. How do you know.

[Mnemosyne]

145. James Fetzer, I think , stated it at the American Scholars Symposium.

Here's a link to list of all of the exercises taking place that day.


please mods, don't delete - only a list of drills, sources are listed.

Scroll down:

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&before_9/11=militaryExercises


Here's a link to the C-Span coverage of the American Scholars Symposium:

http://inside.c-spanarchives.org:8080/cspan/cspan.csp?command=dprogram&record=546878176

http://www.911podcasts.com/display.php?vid=146&epi=0



List of members and credentials of Scholars for 9/11 Truth:

http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/WhoAreWe.html

[Realityhack]

165. hmmm

I don't have time to listen to the full audio files. Any specific transcript exerpts? I saw no mention of an unpresidented number of drills. Many of the drills listed on the timeline link where part of the same large excersize. I don't think its unusual to run a large excersize involving numorus units.

[Mnemosyne]

174. I've emailed Dr. Fetzer for the info. n/t

[Name removed]

155. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[underpants]

28. So civilians with cell phones were more effective that the US military

as commanded by George W. Bush.

Well there you have it.

[slackmaster]

50. NORAD is a bi-national organization

It answers equally to the Prime Minister of Canada and the President of the United States.

http://www.norad.mil/about_us.htm

[Realityhack]

133. Sortof...

you have to remember... SOME civilians with cell phones were doing better. But many were doing worse. With civilians with cell phones you can pick and chose post mortem and show that somebody knew what was going on but there is only the one millitary that either got it right or wrong.

IMO these tapes show just about the best posible reaction to the stimulus recived by the actors we are listening to. They get calls of threats, the respond. They tried their best to do something reguardless of massively incomplete information and ancient equipment.

[savemefromdumbya]

213. military/NORAD told to stand down by Rumsfeld?

[0007]

31. The classic "Cover Up" Not one person was fired.......

In testimony a few minutes later, however, General Arnold added an unexpected twist: "We launched the aircraft out of Langley to put them over top of Washington, D.C., not in response to American Airlines 77, but really to put them in position in case United 93 were to head that way."

How strange, John Azzarello, a former prosecutor and one of the commission's staff members, thought. "I remember being at the hearing in '03 and wondering why they didn't seem to have their stories straight. That struck me as odd."

The ears of another staff member, Miles Kara, perked up as well. "I said to myself, That's not right," the retired colonel, a former army intelligence officer, told me. Kara had seen the radar re-creations of the fighters' routes. "We knew something was odd, but we didn't have enough specificity to know how odd."

As the tapes reveal in stark detail, parts of Scott's and Arnold's testimony were misleading, and others simply false. At 9:16 a.m., when Arnold and Marr had supposedly begun their tracking of United 93, the plane had not yet been hijacked. In fact, NEADS wouldn't get word about United 93 for another 51 minutes. And while NORAD commanders did, indeed, order the Langley fighters to scramble at 9:24, as Scott and Arnold testified, it was not in response to the hijacking of American 77 or United 93. Rather, they were chasing a ghost. NEADS was entering the most chaotic period of the morning.

[savemefromdumbya]

214. Bush promoted most people in command that day - go figure?

[OKNancy]

33. This article debunks a lot of the conspiracy stuff

so naturally those folks won't like it.

It backs up the TITS theory.

Too Incompetent To Stop

[drduffy]

53. No, it actually does not.... it fits right in....

[hang a left]

34. Disappointing article

Maybe the Rolling Stone can broach the subject.

[QuettaKid]

35. K&R. keep kicked. nt.

.

[a la izquierda]

36. i remember thinking...

where the hell where the fighter planes that morning? I grew up in NJ, about 10 miles as the crow flies across the bay from lower Manhattan. I'm also about 1 hour north of McGuire AFB in southern NJ.

They surely could have gotten planes up there, I thought that day. My husband said no way and we both hoped to god that they were doing something to protect L.A., where we lived at the time.
How very sad and disturbing.:cry:

[Virginia Dare]

37. I thought the same thing...

I was in D.C. that morning, and there were rumors for a while that there were more planes headed into the city. I remember looking up into the sky saying where is the fucking air force?

[chimpymustgo]

38. K & R. Perhaps the truth will come out. MIHOP. MIHOP. MIHOP.

I think the article is a "limited hang-out". But slowly, if enough people just open their eyes, just ask some very basic questions.

Lord have mercy.

[Nordic65]

117. Not so much L/MIHOP as CYA (though equally treasonous)

Once the stupid motherfuckers knew that they'd blown it (ref. the august 6 memo among others) they started a massive political disinformation operation to save themselves. And they did very well. 90+ approval two months later...

Rather than let the truth be told, they went out of their way to make any single piece of the puzzle to how the fuck some twenty odd people with box-cutters could cause so much carnage against the only superpower, remain in a shroud of mystery. Remember, these clowns didn't even testify to the 9/11 commission under oath!!

So here's the deal:
Instead of turning everything upside down to find out how this could be prevented in the future, these bastards did everything in their power to turn the tragic of 9/11, that they so miserably failed to prevent, into a political, corrupt bonanza that has plagued mankind ever since.

They say 9/11 changed everything, and they are right - for all the wrong reasons...

FUCK

[respublicus]

203. No, it was pure MIHOP. Read 9/11 Synthetic Terror: Made in USA

One bigshot even said "9/11 was an intelligence success"
In Synthetic Terror, Tarpley points out that only state intelligence agencies have the resources to pull of spectacular terror feats.
The amateurs he calls "supermarket-calibre terrorists", they can maybe blow up a bus or a storefront.
Most terror organizations are sponsored by secret services, those which are not, are thoroughly infiltrated.
It's a very elaborate charade of clumsiness they put on.
Deception is the name of the game. Get out the old Mad magazines with Spy vs. Spy.

[RawMaterials]

40. So the question should be

what would the reaction to 9-11 have been, if gore was pres, and the air force shot down 3 planes. ???

[Virginia Dare]

41. Better question...

would 9/11 have happened at all if Gore was President.

[FormerDem06]

115. Yes, it would have...

The guys had been planning their attack since the mid-90s. Heck they tried to bring one tower down while Clinton was in office. Religious Fundamentalism with a nasty twist is hard to combat.

[Laurab]

184. Actually, we'll never know

If the agencies had cooperated with each other, if there hadn't been so many political appointees to intelligence positions, if people had been allowed to act on intelligence, it might have been a whole different story.

I don't feel it would have happened if Gore had been president, probably because I believe the * administration had something, if not everything, to do with it.

Even if they didn't, the intelligence community wouldn't have been so discouraged by the inaction, and they would not have left their jobs like they did after * became president. There were SO many leads that weren't followed, leads people weren't ALLOWED to follow, many people quit out of frustration because they knew something was going to happen, and they were powerless to do anything.

I think Gore would have read the Presidential Briefing and acted on it, unlike shrub, so I just don't think you can say "yes, it would have..." Too many variables, even if this administration is completely innocent of any involvement.

[Dissenting_Prole]

188. I'm sure that a lot of people here want to believe

the Democrats are the good guys.

Sorry, but they're just different puppets in the same show.

Thinks about it. The all seem to belong to the same clubs regardless of which party they represent: CFR, The Trilateral Commission, Skull and Bones, etc.

[CJCRANE]

198. In some ways

you're right, in that Clinton sold out on NAFTA but at least he genuinely seemed to be trying to stop terrorism and bring peace to the Middle East (rather than Bushco who make things worse either through incompetence or darker motives).

[Pierogi_Pincher]

195. That's exactly what I've held all along!

They (guvnament) should tell the citizens the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help THEM God.

P_P

[newspeak]

75. that terrible day, is the day I found DU

I remember the threads that day--one DUer stated that he had just talked to a friend who was a pilot, and his friend told him that they were ordered to stand down. I remember that afterwards his friend came back to him and told him he was not to tell anyone because his friend who questioned the decision was reprimanded by his commander--I think his friend wound up being transferred to Europe. Remember, the administration (Cheney) changed the string of command in May, 2001, thus taking the decision of response from NORAD and leaving it in the hands of this administration. So, if the military was doing major exercises on 9/11, do you think it's merely coincidence that terrorists would use that day for their attack or did they have inside information in order to confuse the situation? And, if they did have inside info., who gave it to them? It's taken this long for some to know that the military were doing major military exercises on that fateful day. Well, I doubt not many still believe that the highjackers used boxcutters to keep the passengers in line--hell, I know some feisty grannies that could kick ass, if it was just a boxcutter!!!!! So, what really happened on that day? The people in this country and the world have a right to know--cause everything, I mean everything, this administration has done has been put at the doorstep of 9/11!!!!!! And, why would this administration reward incompetence? Unless, by rewarding incompetence--it's really competence because it's exactly what they wanted!!!!!

[Virginia Dare]

102. I've heard many personal anecdotes....

about that day. Especially in D.C. in New York. If we could put them all together, we'd probably get some good clues about what really went on. The key to making a conspiracy work is that only a few people know the full story, everybody else involved only knows their small part.

Someone here posted about a friend of theirs who worked at Dulles airport who witnessed a large group of "Arab-looking" people boarding an airplane the night of 9/11 when all air travel was supposedly suspended. They carried large heavy bags on with them. Nobody ever inspected the bags, but the person theorized that they were probably full of cash.

The truth is out there.

[Ghost Dog]

142. I listened to the shortwave BBC World Service that day,

and heard a phone-in comment from an interceptor squadron-leader in the area. He sounded livid (he'd called the BBC, after all): said he was scrambling (on the basis of what data he didn't say: perhaps his own initiative), was in his plane in record time, on the runway warmed-up and ready to go, when he was ordered to stand down.

The BBC ought to have a recording of that somewhere...

[Ghost Dog]

176. I now see (according to NORAD) this must have been one of the Langley, VA

pilots.

[Lorien]

42. An ex-military friend and I were on the phone together that morning

and we were saying the same thing. He knew exactly where each air base was in relation to where the attacks were happening, so he was stunned that the F-15s hadn't been sent up.

We also talked to a friend of his hours later whose brother had been a Steward on a plane that had been right behind one of the hijack aircraft on the tarmac that morning. He said that the control tower knew the plane was hijacked while it was ON THE GROUND, and yet nothing was being done (it sat waiting for takeoff for quite some time. Normally the captain of the steward's plane chatted with the captain of the hijacked plane before takeoff, but that morning he couldn't reach him and became alarmed). The hijacked plane veered wildly off course after it reached altitude. This was one of the planes that struck the WTC.

[Virginia Dare]

103. Hijacked while on the ground?

wow, that's the first time I've heard that. I know that somebody here said that the plane that ended up crashing in Shanksville was held on the ground for 20 minutes for some unknown reason.

Increasingly it seems that there was an amazingly huge cover-up by the FAA, NORAD and the Pentagon.

[Woody Box]

223. VEEEEERY interesting...

is this connected to the question which gate Flight 11 departed from?

There are two versions: Gate 26 and Gate 32.


http://911wideopen.com/mirror/twin11-1/twin-11-mod.htm

[FlaGranny]

58. Heck, I used to work at McGuire AFB

and knew many fighter pilots. SOP back around 1960 was to have pilots in the air within 15 minutes for anything unusual.

The trouble is, I don't believe McGuire has a fighter squadron any more like it used to. I'm not 100% certain, but I believe it is only MATS now (Military Air Transport). Regardless of whether McGuire still has a fighter squadron, there are other Air Force bases with fighter squadrons close enough to the area to have intercepted something!

Remember Payne Webber.

[jus_the_facts]

72. Rummy changed procedure......

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=629950

For literally years, I've been questioning why NORAD behaved completely contrary to what everyone who'd been associated with it for the previous 50 years would have expected in a situation like this. Yes, the media reported NORAD never trained for this scenario, but others tell me NORAD trains for UFO landings (and was not attempting to be making a joke). That they train for every conceivable situation. But what was the other explanation, then?

The explanation is that Rumsfeld changed the procedures so that fighter launches went through him. And ONLY HIM.

[Kailassa]

191. That's only part of the answer.

You then need to ask: "why did Rummy change the procedure?"

[savemefromdumbya]

215. It appears that Rumsfeld was 'in charge' of the 9/11 attacks?

directed by Cheney? Some Democrats knew this but will not speak.

[Virginia Dare]

104. It seems to me that...

planes based in Norfolk Virginia normally would have been scrambled, and can get to D.C. within 10 minutes, but they had been sent to other parts that morning because of the drill.

[sybylla]

79. This is the one point on which I could be easily convinced of MIHOP

I have a friend who is a pilot. He is a foreign national and English isn't his first language, though he does well with it. He was flying a private jet into LAX and misunderstood the tower's commands. In short order he found himself with a fighter escort and an upset flight controller on the radio.

And that was 15 years ago. When I heard about all the screw ups at NORAD on 9/11, I couldn't help but think something was up.

This is an organization whose goal is to make these kinds of operations. They have practice. They've done it over and over again every year on incidents like that I described above. And when the biggest event that has ever happened comes along to test the system, it's not even on-line? No terrorist is that lucky.

[flyarm]

100. ACTUALLY 2 FIGHTERS WERE IN THE AIR OVER THE PINELANDS..

OF nj THAT MORNING..AND THEY COULD HAVE MADE IT TO NY IN PLENTY OF TIME TO
( opps caps) engage AA flt 11..but they were never called!!


fly

[Ilsa]

43. CNN/B.Starr is running a story "9/11 Pentagon Lies?"

referring to the Vanity Fair article and that the 9/11 Investigation commissioners were so distrustful of the timetables and stories told to them by Pentagon personnel about 9/11 that they were considering asking for a Justice Dept investigation, etc. They couldn't tell if they were being lied to or if people were just inept. Some of the Commission's 9-11 testimony from the Pentagon has been "corrected" already.

[Robb]

44. Truly fascinating

Especially the bit about the fighters heading out to sea to look for cruise missiles, since that's been the usual drill.

As rather a conspiracy person myself, I find the whole story as told here quite believable. And I should add I'm somewhat disappointed to say that.

[Pale Blue Dot]

55. Robb, I agree - for the most part.

I think this story is believable, too. But after some reflection, I think this makes MIHOP or LIHOP more likely.

One of the arguments that anti-conspirists make is that too many people would have needed to be involved to make MIHOP work. I think that is a good argument.

But what if it required only 1 or 2 people who knew:

a) A training exercise was planned for that day;

b) The way FAA communications would have worked on that day;

c) The procedures, or lack thereof, NORAD had to deal with such an event?

Someone who had that knowledge could feed it to the hijackers (or a "friendly" government), and very few additional people would have to know.

So the questions for me would be:

1. Who profited most from the events of 9/11;

and 2) Who would have had access to this information?

And on a side note (?), Cheney is implicated in a lie in this same article:

"In his bunker under the White House, Vice President Cheney was not notified about United 93 until 10:02—only one minute before the airliner impacted the ground. Yet it was with dark bravado that the vice president and others in the Bush administration would later recount sober deliberations about the prospect of shooting down United 93. "Very, very tough decision, and the president understood the magnitude of that decision," Bush's then chief of staff, Andrew Card, told ABC News."

[elehhhhna]

74. Coincidence #283,292,090: The Fla election crimes were gaining LOTS of

traction when BOOM! "THE TRIFECTA"!

[Pale Blue Dot]

76. Interesting you should mention that.

I've been thinking about the "trifecta" comment as well this morning. Why would Bush tip his hand so obviously?

The answer: He didn't know. He's not in on it. However, he may suspect (or suspected at the time), and like a lot of us who feel quilty about something, but feel there's no reason to, he made a joke of it.

I don't think Bush was involved. At least not at first.

[elehhhhna]

88. Obviously. These things are only revealed on a "need to know" basis,

and he had no need-to-know.

Like when Katrina hit, or his yellow cake lie, etc.

[flyarm]

109. i agree with you..but i believe ..

when andy card wispered the second plane hitting wtc..he knew..he damn well knew..i see it so clearly on his face..

and i have from the get go..

he knew when he was told in that class room..and he knew he was forever implicated/and complicit then..
he knew it was his "guys" who did this!

fly

[arcane1]

114. I question whether that is what Card told him

notice that Card doesn't wait, even for a millisecond, to see if Bush asks any questions, gives any orders, ANYTHING

no, he whispers in Bush's ear and walks away. Whatever it was he whispered, he wasn't expecting any response from the Commander-in-chief

if YOU just told the Commander-in-chief that "America is under attack", wouldn't YOU pause for a moment to see if the CIC has something to ask, something to say?

[DoYouEverWonder]

161. Then why did Bush on two separate occasions

claim that he had seen the first plane hit the first tower?

At 8:30 AM Bush's motorcade left the Colony Resort to go to Booker Elementary about 10 miles away. However, this drive which should have taken about 10 minutes took 1/2 hour. Bush's limo supposedly has some of the most high tech gear available installed. Bush could have easily monitored the attack from his limo. When he finally arrived at Booker he acknowledged that he already knew about the first plane.

Bush knew and he deliberately ignored the attack while it was in progress, just like the rest of his top administration officials.

[Old and In the Way]

192. "I saw the 1st plane hit, and I thought that was one bad pilot"

To paraphrase the Decider.

Did he really think that? Knowing that the 8/6 PDB clearly outlined a serious threat assessment of exactly this kind of attack happening soon? Or after all the warnings we got throughout the suummer of 2001 from friendly intelligence agencies? Why would he make a bald-faced lie to the American people? Did he think the info would never come out? I know they fought like hell to keep the PDB from ever seeing the light of day. Was this his attempt to start the "we never expected terrorists to fly planes into buildings"?

I doubt he was confused on seeing the 1st plane hit. He has CCTV in his limo, I wouldn't be surprised if he had seen the hit. I'll take him at his word. Probably assumed everyone saw it on TV.

[mirandapriestly]

222. His other "slips" have turned out to be true.eom

[drduffy]

95. I agree with FinnFan and posted above

that I think it all fits right into a MIHOP.......

[napi21]

45. We have to face it folks. The BS our Gov't has been shoveling

out for years about being totally capable of protecting America is exactly that...BS!

I just finished reading and listening to the recordings. It's mindboggeling that communications are sooo bad! Litteraly nobody knew what the hell was going on, and first info took way to long to get to the people who COULD have actually done someting.

reading that article and listening to those recordings convinces me that we have NO SYSTEM of communicating info fo emergency response. I actually think each individual person did a good job, but they can't do anything when they don't get valid info.

SHAME on the Airlines! The one striking thing in that message was that no one in authority could confirm American 11 hit the Trade Center because "Airlines can track their own planes, but in a crisis, they routinely go into info lockdown. American Airlines wouldn't confirm for hours that THEIR plane a hit the Trade Center! What kind of BS is THAT?

[flyarm]

112. American hired a huge PR firm immediately...

yes the first thing they did was hire a PR firm..

but more astonishing to me..is ..everything with the airlines is seniority..everything..

and the lady who was the flight supervisor over all flight attend was there when the call came from the manager on duty in bos to headquarters in dfw..relaying Amy Sweeny's call from the aircraft...

now this lady, Jane Allen ..leaves American and goes to work for united in chicago..

that doesn't happen folks...no one leaves the USA's most successful stable financial airline and goes to work for a bankrupt airline..

and gives up seniority>??

nope..doesn't happen in the airline biz folks...

and then Jane Allen won't talk to Amy Sweeney's husband..or the Captains wife??

there is more and more stink here folks..

from a now retired AA flight crew..fly

[slackmaster]

49. Fascinating read, chilling audio links

Highly recommended.

K&R.

[saigon68]

80. kick

[murray hill farm]

51. See the movie...

"loose Change".....it explains sooooooooo much!

[Massachusetts]

52. The NORAD Tapes

The "Great Experiment" has failed because of the naivete of WE The People, time to reconsider.

[Iniquitous Bunny]

56. My take:

It doesn't dismiss possibilities of MIHOP, but it does dismiss possibilities of LIHOP. If events took place as the series of tapes indicate, it absolves most of the NORAD command from knowledge. However, for NORAD to react as ineptly as they did, the hijackers almost had to be tipped somehow to the training exercises that would be occurring that day. My personal view is a select few knew and knew who to tip off. They wanted their pipeline through Afghanistan and they wanted their oil for it. This could assist in accomplishing their goals and few other days would be better than one when an exercise like the one scheduled would be taking place. I believe those at NORAD were ashamed at what happened and there was a cover-up to a degree, but not for any other conspiracy on their parts aside from protecting their own butts.

[Realityhack]

144. I disagree with one of your statments.

You said:
"However, for NORAD to react as ineptly as they did, the hijackers almost had to be tipped somehow to the training exercises that would be occurring that day."

I think the tapes made it clear that the excersizes were not a meaningful part of the problem. Sure everyone is going 'is this real life or drill' but the answer puts it to rest in a second. The people on the tape are clearly taking as much action as they can based on the information they get.
Thus I do not see how the terrorists knowing about a drill at NORAD would have changed didly squat.
The biggest problems heard on the tape are crappy equipment, and poor communication with the FAA (and this is mostly an inbound issue). NEADS dosn't seem to get the info that something is hijacked untill its basicaly already crashed.

I am not big on consperacy theories about 9-11 but my take is...
THEORETICALY...
you could have LIHOP at a very high level. As in say a handfull of higherups knew that something along these general lines was going to go down but faild to try to preempt it. Basicaly not caring wither it was stoped or not because even a close call would be enough for their purposes.
you could also have MIHOP again at a high level of people say helping to plan it or whatever.

I find both of these theoretical posibilities rather remote. But thats just my take.

[Mnemosyne]

147. If it was LIHOP do you think that

the gas station and hotel tapes would have been confiscated within "minutes"?

The heightened readiness to collect the tapes so quickly appears more MIHOP, imo.

Too bad fighter jets weren't scrambled as quickly.

[orleans]

158. good point. n/t

[Mnemosyne]

163. Thanks! n/t

[Blue_Tires]

59. k+r

[ramapo]

61. A politicized mess

The guys in the trenches did the best they could with the little they had.

The story shows Cheney to be full of crap.

What has always boggled my mind was the complete lack of armed fighters that were available to protect the country. I wonder what the situation is today?

[Mnemosyne]

148. Very good question ramapo!

"I wonder what the situation is today?"

[wicket]

68. K & R

:kick:

[lthuedk]

69. How dare anyone even think of governmental conspiracy.

Regards,

Stephen Pitt

[judaspriestess]

78. good its early in the day

Where are the tapes of the AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS??? Where are they in this picture?

I'll keep saying this till I die, A PLANE CANNOT FLY IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION WITHOUT ANYONE KNOWING ABOUT IT. Airliners MUST check in with air traffic about every 10-20 minutes depending on where they are in the air. Airplanes have FLIGHT PATHS they MUST follow. Those air traffic controllers in New York, Boston, Philadelphia for example KNEW something fucked up was going on pretty darn quick.

[paulthompson]

81. I'm going to be a guest on Air America today to talk about this!

I just found out that Randi Rhodes wants me to be a guest on her show today to talk about these latest 9/11 developments. The time is approximately 5:30 Eastern time and 2:30 Pacific time. I hope you'll listen in.

[Peggy Day]

86. I will nt

[TNOE]

111. WOOOOOO HOOOOOO

Excellent.

[Realityhack]

131. @#$(% I missed it.

Hope I hear a re-run.

[orleans]

159. just heard you on randi's show.

9/11 PRESS FOR TRUTH

a documentary of the timeline?

great! when?

(glad you were able to be on her show today. i heard a snip of ed schultz & he was peeing all over that cspan show on 9/11. i started to vomit while driving and had to turn him off)

[EVDebs]

85. Now investigate the Ptech/GoAgile story

whistleblown to the public by Indira Singh.

How much DID the FBI know about Ptech
http://cbs4boston.com/iteam/local_story_343145212.html

and Rachel Ehrenfeld's Dollars of terror article.

[paulthompson]

96. Ptech? I already did

I've got a whole section of my timeline on Ptech. It's a very key piece of the puzzle:

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&financing_of_al-qaeda:_a_more_detailed_look=bmiPtech

[loudsue]

91. I STILL want to know how the hijackers knew to turn off transponders

That has never made sense, and I don't think the damned things were turned off by any hijackers.

:kick::kick::kick:

[savemefromdumbya]

216. remote - what hijackers?

[sakabatou]

93. Interesting

"Radar is the NEADS controllers' most vital piece of equipment, but by 9/11 the scopes were so old, among other factors, that controllers were ultimately unable to find any of the hijacked planes in enough time to react. Known collectively as the Green Eye for the glow the radar rings give off, the scopes looked like something out of Dr. Strangelove and were strikingly anachronistic compared with the equipment at civilian air-traffic sites. (After 9/11, NEADS was equipped with state-of-the-art equipment.)"

[judaspriestess]

128. As a former flight attendant

who had the opportunity to fly in the flight deck jump seat several times, There is NO WAY the air traffic controllers did not know where these planes were at. It is IMPOSSIBLE. Pilots & Air Traffic control are one in the air. Otherwise their would be a whole lot of mid air collissions. I just wish the air traffic controllers would come forward. They could see the plane flying into Manhattan on thier screens.

Example, TWA 800, as soon as the plane exploded air traffic control knew something was wrong because they lost the signal right away on their screen. It was shown on TV how the plane was being tracked.

[OzarkDem]

180. Agree - that's the missing link

What were the airlines and the air traffic controllers doing for so long before they alerted NORAD?

[MercutioATC]

219. As a current air traffic controller, that's not accurate.

This has been discussed as nauseum here, but I'll give you the basics:

The ATC system is based almost entirely on user compliance. It's a safety system, not a security system. As such, if a user chooses to turn off his/her transponder, our computers no longer correlate the primary radar target with the flight plan data that identifies the flight.

It's not "IMPOSSIBLE", it's a known limitation of the system.

[Corgigal]

97. The NORAD center tucked in NY

had green scopes? You have got to be kidding? What did the major NORAD facility have? Couldn't the major NORAD center in Colorado assist the substation in NY?

If you guys have ever seen a green scope you would understand what they were working with. Crap, unbelievable crap. At a NORAD facility? Just that alone should scare the hell out of us.

[lovuian]

98. The truth will come out!!!

too many people will open their mouths

Bush will be found out!!!

[Kurovski]

101. K&R.(nt)

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[asking4help]

108. And they laughed at me.

I had a discussion with a relative of mine about 6 months ago regarding "irregularities" with 911 and he laughed at me and called me a conspiracy theorist.
I got a phone call from him yesterday and he asked for the links to the videos on 911 that I sent him again.
Hmmmm. people are beginning to wake up people. Let's see if the propaganda machine can lull the sheeple to sleep again.

[lala_rawraw]

110. My take on this...

I can see why there would be interest to lie and cover their asses for failing, badly, to do their jobs. While I am not condoning it, I can understand it. I can also understand that given the amount of excercise vs. real world activity on that day, that there would be a great deal of confusion.

My issues, however, are much more serious - at least for me. Why did the Vice President lie about considering a shoot down order when in fact there was no time for that?

Why did the Vice President find out after much of this was going on?

Why did the President find out and still go into that classroom and even after being told, we are under attack, did not bother to ask "how, in what way, nuclear, what?" or any single question.

For me, the most damning thing here is that the Executive Branch is missing in what looks like a war on our soil. This makes me sick because I had thought that there would have been/should have been direct and immidate response from the leadership. But then to concot a story of how Cheney had to really think about the decision of how/what to do with flight 93, when in fact that was a lie, just boils my blood.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

171. These people are incapable of governing.

The only thing they're good at is being politicians. They hate the administrative side of government and simply cannot function in that role.

[TNOE]

113. OMG - this is "still" in Latest Breaking News

how soon before it is to the 9/11 basement - can't have any discussion of 9/11 out in the open, people might think we democrats are like crazy man, or something.

The "conspiracy/tin foil" bullshit isn't working anymore. Especially after the show on CSPAN - pretty much of America knows - its now just a question of what the hell to do about it.

Nightline last night was a joke - bad equipment, the lies were nausating - had to turn it off.

[reprobate]

116. The one inescapable thing the comes HORRIBLY to mind in all this is

the fact that so many Americans now have little or no trust in ANYTHING their government tells them. Just from talking with people it's been my experience that each piece of disinformation that come out causes more people to shift into at least the LIHOP column, and many all the way to MIHOP.

I find myself getting a little lightheaded when I consider that it's possible (and I think probable) that our government leadership either let this happen or made it happen. It reminds me of a huge logic matrix in which all these supposed coincidences HAD to happen in order for the input to cause a positive output. I'm sorry but the imagination just won't stretch that far.

Then we come to the question of punishment. I have no doubt that one day the world will know the extent of the conspiracy that I believe resulted in 9/11. When that day comes and we know the responsible parties and if they are still alive, just what can be their proper punishment? For treason of this magnitude, and the resulting war crimes that occurred with the excuse of 9/11, how can we properly exact reasonable punishment for this unequaled atrocity?

I believe that since these people are no doubt social dominators with the need to control others, the proper punishment is to remove them from all chance to control anyone. IOW, complete isolation for the rest of their natural lives. They should have no chance to see a human face or hear a human voice. The most intense punishment you can give anyone is complete isolation with no input. Orders to the prisoner would be by text on a monitor.

Further, I believe the ancient Pharaohs had the right idea. When they hated their predecessors they wiped out all references to them. The same should be done to American traitors. Any references in the literature should be expunged and a footnote entered to lead to a history of their perfidy.

[TNOE]

120. I guess that's why there is the Hague

but frankly, that's going to be too nice for them. I envision a scene where Bush & Cheney & Rove & Wolfowitz & Rice, et al are escorted from the White House in hand cuffs through the throngs of pissed off Americans hurling rotton tomatoes, etc. - and then off the to Hague, but that's truly not punishment enough. What WILL the Ann Coulters and Sean Hannity's and Rush Limbaughs be saying then? THAT's what I really can't wait for. The but-but-but-but's..... how could they and then to hear their new righteous indignation.... perhaps there will be some justice in seeing that, but very little considering statments such as Man Coulter's that for all we know the husbands of these 9/11 widows might have been wanting to divorce them... she needs to be sent away with this bunch too.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

119. Cool. Really cool.

8:37:56
WATSON: What?
DOOLEY: Whoa!
WATSON: What was that?
ROUNTREE: Is that real-world?
DOOLEY: Real-world hijack.
WATSON: Cool!

[Gully Foyle]

121. Surprise

Time was turned back five years. First the movie which may have explosions other than from planes. Now an information dump during an election cycle.

[Visiongirl]

125. excellent timeline...

www.cooperativeresearch.org/project.jsp?project=911_project

this is an extremely thorough and well cited timeline of 9/11 and the events leading up to it.

[funkybutt]

126. Why were transponders designed to be turned off?

There must be a good reason. If the transponders were locked ON or somehow turned on remotely, by traffic control or something...maybe soemthing could have been done.

[DoYouEverWonder]

205. That's what I'd like to know too

You would think that these transponder would be hard wired and that no one inside the plane could turn them off. Otherwise what good are they if anyone can just turn them off?

[Realityhack]

129. Bump... like it needs it.

Very interesting stuff. Needs to be read and listened to.

[Rex]

132. 'The real story is actually better than the one we told'

What more needs to be said.

[stevedeshazer]

143. Hokey Smoke!

This is the Pentagon Papers squared.

[sce56]

151. I sure hope you all noticed that the important text is bleeped in playback

I hope this does not go down the memory hole! I hope that someone saved the complet web page including all the tapes before it was bleeped. I saved what I could suggest you do the same!

Note the demo charges going off several floors below the main collapse, evidence of controlled demolition

[greyl]

160. Bullshit, dude.

There's an enormous amount of displaced matter due to the compression happenning above.

Can you provide any photos that show an unexplained weakness/collapse in the building near those "demo charges"?

No, you can't.
The theory is total bullshit.

[sce56]

189. look at the evidence the firemen stated in the radio calls there were bomb

explosions going off! See them t6alk about it afterwards http://www.letsroll911.org/discussion_in_firehouse.mpg See A Professors take on it Dr. Steven Jones (Department of Physics and Astronomy - Brigham Young University) http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=964034652002408586 http://www.911blogger.com/2006/02/dr-steven-jones-utah-seminar-video.html

Possibly White Aluminum Oxide Smoke From A Possible Thermite Reaction Emerging From The Base Of WTC 2 During The Onset Of It's Collapse, 9/11/2001





It just descended like a timed explosion - like when they are deliberately bringing a building down . . . It was coming down so perfectly that in one part of my brain I was thinking, 'They got everyone out, and they're bringing the building down because they have to.'”

- WNYC Radio's Beth Fertig

"When I looked in the direction of the Trade Center before it came down, before No. 2 came down, ... I saw low-level flashes ... I saw a flash flash flash and then it looked like the building came down ... You know like when they demolish a building, how when they blow up a building, when it falls down? That's what I thought I saw."

- NYFD Assistant Fire Commissioner Stephen Gregory
“It was like a professional demolition where they set the charges on certain floors and then you hear 'Pop, pop, pop, pop, pop'."

- NYC Paramedic Daniel Rivera

"It was as if as if they had detonated ... as if they had planned to take down a building, boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom "

- NYFD Captain Dennis Tardio

"I was taking firefighters up in the elevator to the 24th floor to get in position to evacuate workers. On the last trip up a bomb went off. We think there were bombs set in the building."

- NYFD Firefighter Louie Cacchioli

“There was just an explosion in the south tower. It seemed like on television when they blow up these buildings. It seemed like it was going all the way around like a belt, all these explosions.”

- NYFD Firefighter Richard Banaciski
"It almost sounded like bombs going off, like boom, boom, boom, like seven or eight"

- NYFD Firefighter Thomas Turilli

"Heard explosions coming from . . . the south tower . . . There were about ten explosions. . . . We then realized the building started to come down"

- NYFD Firefighter Craig Carlsen

"It actually gave at a lower floor, not the floor where the plane hit. . . . We originally had thought there was like an internal detonation, explosives, because it went in succession, boom, boom, boom, boom, and then the tower came down"

- NYFD Firefighter Edward Cachia

"Somewhere around the middle . . . there was this orange and red flash coming out. Initially it was just one flash. Then this flash just kept popping all the way around the building and that building had started to explode ... With each popping sound it was initially an orange and then a red flash came out of the building and then it would just go all around the building on both sides as far as I could see. These popping sounds and the explosions were getting bigger, going both up and down and then all around the building"

- NYFD Captain Karin Deshore

"A debate began to rage because . . . many people had felt that possibly explosives had taken out 2 World Trade"

- NYFD Firefighter Christopher Fenyo


look at the siesmic record the big shock at the begining of the collapse not the other way around.

The above image is a seismographical readout at the time of the attacks
and collapse of the WTC. You can clearly see on the top line the small
peaks of the planes impacts.

But here is where it gets interesting, check out those two really BIG
spikes on the 3rd and 4th lines. Those spikes represent the collapse
of the towers. Notice the shape of these spikes, the highest peak is
actually at the beginning. A strange anomaly when you consider the nature
of a collapse is more gradual than explosive, with the vibrations becoming
more and more intense as each floor collapses onto the next.

But this isnt the case in the seismograph.



The Palisades seismic data recorded a 2.1 magnitude earthquake during
the 10-second collapse of the South Tower at 9:59:04 and a 2.3 quake
during the 8-second collapse of the North Tower at 10:28:31.

While the aircraft crashes caused minimal earth shaking, significant
earthquakes with unusual spikes occurred at the beginning of each collapse.
Not only that, but these two unexplained spikes are more than twenty
times the amplitude of the other seismic waves associated with the collapses!


This seismic record shows that as the collapses began - a huge seismic
spike marked the moment the greatest energy went into the ground. The
strongest jolts were all registered at the beginning of the collapses,
well before the falling debris struck the earth.

THE EXPERTS SPEAK OUT

Asked about these spikes seismologist Arthur Lerner-Lam, director of
Columbia University's Center for Hazards and Risk Research told the
American Free Press, "This is an element of current research and
discussion. It is still being investigated." According to Lerner-Lam,
"The ground shaking that resulted from the collapse of the towers
was extremely small."

A "sharp spike of short duration" is how seismologist Thorne
Lay of Univ. of California at Santa Cruz told AFP an underground explosion
appears on a seismograph. Another seismologist, Won-Young Kim, stated
that the Palisades seismographs register daily underground explosions
from a quarry 20 miles away. These blasts are caused by 80,000 lbs.
of ammonium nitrate and cause local earthquakes between Magnitude 1
and 2.



Evidently, the energy source that shook the ground beneath the towers
was many times more powerful than the total potential energy released
by the falling mass of the huge towers.


Then look at bldg 7 it was not hit by planes only a suspicious fire from kerosene that only burns at

[greyl]

197. I have. You didn't answer the question.

Can you provide any photos that show an unexplained weakness/collapse in the building near those "demo charges"?

[Nitty-Gritty]

207. Wow. Pretty amazing stuff I'd never even heard of before. Thanks.

It's weird how there's so much actual evidence that undermines what we were told. Thanks for the education.

[mirandapriestly]

218. Good post , thank you! eom

[BrokenBeyondRepair]

208. "enormous amount of displaced matter..."

That’s an "enormous" assumption..

An objective person would say the cause is unknown and maybe discuss possibilities but that’s not why were here, are we Adam..

[Straight Shooter]

152. Put bush and cheney under oath this time and ask the questions.

Little bastards, both of them. Fought tooth and nail not to go before the 9/11 Commission. bush refused to be sworn in, refused to allow a record of the proceedings to be taken down, refused to talk to the Commission by himself, had to be on "Unca Dick's" lap and getting his cues what to say and what not to say.

Little bastards, they lied through their teeth, I just know it.

[savemefromdumbya]

217. Contact you Senators to ask questions

[Algorem]

154. NPR talkink NORAD tapes in mornink-

http://www.wamu.org/programs/dr/06/08/03.php#11705

Thursday August 3, 2006
Join the show: 1-800-433-8850 ([e-mail])

10:00NORAD tapes
Journalist Michael Bronner discusses America's military response on the morning of September 11th based on newly released audiotapes from the North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) Northeast headquarters.

Guests
Michael Bronner, journalist and author of "9/11 Live: The NORAD Tapes", Vanity Fair, September 06 issue

Colin Scoggins, military specialist, Boston Air Route Traffic Controller, FAA

[althecat]

157. Yeah right.

Reading it now.. but first impressions.. I want a second opinion....

We now have proof that they have lied to us repeatedly - at least 3 times to the 911 commission alone - now we have a journalist who claims to have gotten to the bottom of this.

Yeah right.

[drduffy]

167. limited hangout, limited hangout, limited hangout

probably been said above somewhere but worth repeating........

[orleans]

179. what do you mean? n/t

[lutefisk]

181. It means:

A "limited hangout" is used by Intelligence Organizations when a clandestine operation goes bad; or, a phoney cover story blows up. When discovered the Intelligence Organization volunteers some of the truth while still managing to withhold key and damaging facts in the case.

The public is so intrigued by the new information it doesn't pursue the matter further. The new disclosures are sensational, but superficially so. Some of the lesser scoundrels are identified and publicly exposed to twist uncomfortably on network TV and in the press.

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/2807/LtdHangout.html

There are many interesting examples...

[orleans]

183. un-freakin-real. i never heard of this before.

on wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modified_limited_hangout

"The phrase "modified limited hang out" was spoken by John Ehrlichman in a March 22, 1973 meeting and captured in the Watergate tapes. The meeting included the President and his top advisors: Mr. Ehrlichman, John Dean, H.R. Haldeman, and John Mitchell, then the Attorney General. The phrase is from a snippet of conversation that, out of context, stands out as a bit of dialog worthy of David Mamet.

PRESIDENT: You think, you think we want to, want to go this route now? And the--let it hang out, so to speak?

DEAN: Well, it's, it isn't really that--

HALDEMAN: It's a limited hang out.

DEAN: It's a limited hang out.

EHRLICHMAN: It's a modified limited hang out.

PRESIDENT: Well, it's only the questions of the thing hanging out publicly or privately."

snip

"The phrase had an inherent appeal and evokes the Watergate era. It is also used as a shorthand for political dirty tricks, particularly those involving false documents."

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modified_limited_hangout"

[wildbilln864]

196. I can't believe this thread hasn't yet been sent to the dungeon!

It's absolutely fantastic! These piece of shit criminals have been lying to us all since day one and have caused the deaths of countless humans when including Iraq, Afghanistan, 911 and God knows what else. And not one fucking thing has been done about any of it yet. How the hell can this be?
KICK!

[orleans]

201. just guessing but

maybe it's still in lbn is because the story was msm news?

[wildbilln864]

209. I guess you were right orleans.

But I'm so glad that while it was there it was available for alot more people to see.

[mirandapriestly]

220. An ATC came on Randi Rhodes

and said they still don't have the tapes from when the ACTUAL "hijacking" allegedly occurred. So they are still hiding and will continue to hide what happened then. Why? Also, the gov't has edited other tapes, so who is to say these were not edited.

[John Q. Citizen]

224. Until the government comes clean, the only natural and logical

explaination is that the government is hiding something and that the government has a reason to hide something.